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Skip Breakfast · Jan 13, 2005, 02:33 PM

I'm thinking about buying a Mini Mac and sticking it inside a full ATX tower build. I just wonder if I can find an internal KVM solution and FireWire/USB switch. Could be fun. What do you think?

MORT A POTTY · Jan 13, 2005, 04:01 PM

I actually think that would be awesome if everything works seamlessly. just put a switch or something on the front of the computer... it would be a bit complitcated, as you mentioned, in the periphreals and such, but if it can be done well (a LOT of careful planning) then hell yeah that would be awesome!

discotronic · Jan 13, 2005, 07:01 PM

That sounds like a sweet idea. It would take some doing. How do you plan on getting the optical drive in a position to work properly? Vertical like the iMac maybe? Heat may be an issue is the tower doesn't have the right ventilation.

Chinasaur · Jan 13, 2005, 11:18 PM

Originally posted by discotronic:
Heat may be an issue is the tower doesn't have the right ventilation.

Disco,

How do you figure? Going from the mini case to an ATX case would be like going from a storage shed to a Zeppelin hanger. All you'd have would be ventilation in an ATX case filled with only a mini's innards

macaddict0001 · Jan 14, 2005, 12:23 AM

Originally posted by discotronic:
That sounds like a sweet idea. It would take some doing. How do you plan on getting the optical drive in a position to work properly? Vertical like the iMac maybe? Heat may be an issue is the tower doesn't have the right ventilation.

Just put it in one of the drive bays.

Waragainstsleep · Jan 14, 2005, 08:10 AM

Better yet, put one in each drivebay (get a huge case with five of 'em). Got your own ATX rack server.

MORT A POTTY · Jan 14, 2005, 12:40 PM

wouldn't quite fit in a drive bay.

discotronic · Jan 14, 2005, 03:05 PM

Originally posted by Chinasaur:
Disco,

How do you figure? Going from the mini case to an ATX case would be like going from a storage shed to a Zeppelin hanger. All you'd have would be ventilation in an ATX case filled with only a mini's innards

From Skip's post I took it that he was going to mount the entire mini inside an ATX case not just the innards. If we are not talking about doing that heat won't be an issue. Maybe I misunderstood?

Skip Breakfast · Jan 14, 2005, 03:14 PM

I would put the whole thing in there. Bear in mind, I am talking about a FULL tower. As in, something with 5 or 6 5.25" bays and plenty of air flowing through.

Sadly, the only inexpensive DVI/USB KVM on the market is the Belkin one, and I am seeing miserable reviews on it.

Waragainstsleep · Jan 14, 2005, 03:22 PM

Can't you use a VGA/PS-2 KVM with VGA to DVI and PS-2 to USB adapters?

Thats a whole lot of initials.......

I know its not ideal, but its not like you're going to run short of space.

sine -''-..- · Jan 14, 2005, 04:19 PM

Theres even a software KVM program that you can use switch between your two machines - Lets see if i can find it... hmm well I cant find it right now, but it allows you to control a mac and pc over network, just like multiple monitors... I saw it on Tech TV... very slick. So you can have one box, two monitors, seamless....

Anyhow it works that one both machines run the software, they're linked by LAN and one machine has the keyboard and mouse physically plugged in... then you can use a hot key to switch between the two, or you can have it switch when you hit a side of the screen (like with multiple monitors.)

Reminds me of my good old PC compatible 6100- used to call her Schitzo. ah... those were the days.

sine -''-..- · Jan 15, 2005, 01:03 AM

Ah! Here it is... It was in my bookmarks.

Chinasaur · Jan 15, 2005, 10:15 PM

I think the chances are high that Apple is going to sue anyone posting case cracking methods...here's my take.

1. Adding 1GB of RAM at the Apple store is a $425 option. This ensure you are well nigh unto iMac land and might figure 'what the hey..I'll just get the iMac"...thus ensuring that mini sales don't canibalize iMac sales.

2. Unless they protect the mini's case cracking technique, I think significant numbers of people will buy the base mini and upgrade it themselves which WILL eat into iMac sales.

I for one would be very happy to put a 1GB mini under my Apple 17" LCD monitor after upgrading it to 1GB and a larger HD with my own parts. And I bet a lot of low end G3 and G4 owners would as well.

MORT A POTTY · Jan 15, 2005, 10:18 PM

you can do what you wish with your own stuff. AFAIK, Apple can't really control that.

Wiskedjak · Jan 15, 2005, 11:09 PM

Originally posted by Chinasaur:
I think the chances are high that Apple is going to sue anyone posting case cracking methods...here's my take.

I think Apple's already given us a clue on cracking the case. Those little white clips around the base are obviously what holds the top down.

Chinasaur · Jan 15, 2005, 11:46 PM

Yeah

If you make a rectangular bottom flange that is negative past vertical..it should press those flanges in and allow the case top to be lifted off. I would buy one for $25 or $50 becuase it would be worth it...and pass it around to friends/family who buy mini's.

Maybe they will sue the makers of case crackers

ixus_123 · Jan 16, 2005, 11:06 PM

yellowdoglinux make a G4 ror maybe a G3 that will fit right in a drive slot - why not try that?

-- tunrs out it's no longer on their site. It was called the briQ though & I found a 2001 article on it.

http://www.linuxdevices.com/articles/AT8574944925.html

velodev · Jan 17, 2005, 06:38 AM

Originally posted by Chinasaur:
I think the chances are high that Apple is going to sue anyone posting case cracking methods...here's my take.

I, seriously and highly, doubt that. They are already posted on here and in other sites. Apple isn't going to waste their time with suing people who modify their own property.

Look at those that get their laptops painted, or make aquariums out of old iMacs. It's the terrain to find Mac users as tinkering with their devices. They might lose their warranty, but they aren't going to be served with a suit. I'm sure someone will beat me to it, but I have full intention of taking mine apart and documenting it as soon as it arrives. However, from what I have read that has gone from January 22 to 3-4 weeks and from the looks of it people already have minis on hand. I would love to know how they got theirs.

I think you're confusing the current suits (Apple vs. Apple, Apple vs. ThinkSecret) as having anything to do with Mac users.

Chinasaur · Jan 17, 2005, 08:29 PM

I was thinking more along the lines of them suing to protect revenue stream. I could see them using the DMCA like the ink cartridge lawsuit people...who that was escapes me at present.

If people can mod their mMacs without paying the Apple upgrade tax, more people migt buy the mini over the iMac...something the $425 1GB RAM upgrade is designed expressly to prevent. That's my opinion anyway obviously.

I was also thinking of chip modders who were sued..but those chips also allowed illegal functionality so that's not the best analogy.

It really comes down to money. If Apples feels the mini is cutting into the iMac margins sufficiently ... and they for sure don't want that to happen..then I could easily see it happening.

They are suing thinksecret for a lot less reason.

swichd · Jan 17, 2005, 10:27 PM

Apple can't sue anyone for doing ANYTHING to the person's own property. I can ax my computer and Apple can't sue. Telling people how to modify their computers is not illegal, it becomes illegal as soon as you start selling devices (like the chips) that use Apple's own patented technologies. So unless the RAM is a special type made exclusivly for the Mac Mini, Apple can't sue anyone about it. If I buy one, I'd upgrade it myself.

Wiskedjak · Jan 17, 2005, 10:53 PM

Originally posted by swichd:
Apple can't sue anyone for doing ANYTHING to the person's own property. I can ax my computer and Apple can't sue. Telling people how to modify their computers is not illegal, it becomes illegal as soon as you start selling devices (like the chips) that use Apple's own patented technologies. So unless the RAM is a special type made exclusivly for the Mac Mini, Apple can't sue anyone about it. If I buy one, I'd upgrade it myself.

Very true, but they can void your warranty if someone who isn't a certified Apple tech and I'm willing to bet that the Mac Mini's case is designed to be tamper evident.

Wiskedjak · Jan 17, 2005, 11:23 PM

Instruction on how to open the Mini:

http://daringfireball.net/2005/01/small_cheap_no_display
There are six clips on three sides (none in the back) that latch onto a lip in the top cover. A standard issue putty knife and some assistance from a jack knife were all that was needed to crack the case. The RAM slot is on the side. I counted 12 screws removed to get to the Airport and Bluetooth modules on the very bottom. It looks like you have to remove the fan to swap the hard drive but we did not try that. No visible signs of entry were evident.

Waragainstsleep · Jan 18, 2005, 08:25 AM

Something I don't quite get about the Mini: Why the apparent emphasis on size? It should be as cheap as possible, not as small as possible. I don't know why they couldn't have designed it with desktop optical and hard drives. Will they really save that much on shipping costs?

Wiskedjak · Jan 18, 2005, 09:02 AM

Originally posted by Waragainstsleep:
Something I don't quite get about the Mini: Why the apparent emphasis on size? It should be as cheap as possible, not as small as possible. I don't know why they couldn't have designed it with desktop optical and hard drives. Will they really save that much on shipping costs?

I agree completely. They could have increased the size by 50% and put in a 200gb 3.5" drive for the same price as that 40gb 2.5" drive. Double the size, and you could have the 3.5" drive PLUS a 5" dual layer superdrive for LESS than that super slim combo drive.

Increase the size by 100% (STILL super small, smaller than the cube) and they could have lowered the cost and increased performance.

Chinasaur · Jan 18, 2005, 10:14 PM

You're not getting it. You have to understand the mindset of Marketing.

Everything the mMac is is intended to keep you in that price point... NOT give you the option to upgrade, and thus avoid, moving up to the iMac. And I agree with them. The mMac is NOT intended for us..it's intended for switchers. End of story.

Had they increased the size, more people would buy it ... and subsequently NOT the higher priced iMac ... and that would take sales away from the iMac...something you can be SURE Jobs mandated must NOT happen if they put out a mini mac.

And don't get me wrong.. I'm a Faithful Mac User� and I gratefully embrace the Reality Distortion Field� whenever I get a chance...but that doesn't mean I have to check my mind at the door and not understand what is going on.

f1000 · Jan 19, 2005, 07:01 AM

Originally posted by sine -''-..-:
Theres even a software KVM program that you can use switch between your two machines - Lets see if i can find it... hmm well I cant find it right now, but it allows you to control a mac and pc over network, just like multiple monitors... I saw it on Tech TV... very slick. So you can have one box, two monitors, seamless....

How about using Microsoft RDC to control the PC in a window within OS X? I realize that you'd lose the performance boost from the PC's graphics card, but you'd still have access to the PC's drives and peripherals.

Think OrangePC.

Waragainstsleep · Jan 19, 2005, 07:31 AM

As it is the Mini is every bit as upgradeable as an iMac, which is not much. Using desktop drives wouldn't make it that much more upgradeable anyway, just slightly cheaper.
And I realise its aimed at switchers, but its aimed at the switchers who don't care what kind of PC they use, they just buy the one with the lowest price tag (Which it still doesn't have - you can buy a number of PCs in the UK which are higher spec and come with monitor, keyboard, mouse etc for less than a mini.
The iMac is only ever going to sell to switchers who want a cool-looking PC and are happy to pay a premium for it. A bigger, uglier Mini is more likely to put these people off buying one (Look how many people are obsessed with having the smallest mobile phone possible), and onto the iMac.
Then there's the potential switchers who like upgrading things and are never going to consider a Mac because 1) They can build their own PCs at a fraction of the price; and 2) They have been hearing for years about how its impossible to upgrade any Mac by yourself (only Apple parts will work etc...).
Lets face it. The majority of Mac users already believe they have to take their machine to an Apple dealer if they want any sort of upgrade (or repair).

A friend of mine hadn't used his PM7200 for 6 months, and it wouldn't boot. He was charged �40 to rescue his data, the machine was returned to him non-working with a quote for �100-120 for some kind of new part (unspecified) to get it running again.
I opened it up, switched the SCSI HD from the middle connector on the cable to the end one (wasn't properly terminated), and it worked perfectly. The machine had a CDR installed, so he could have backed up his own data for the price of the CDs. He probably would have got a better deal at PC World.

Upgradeability is not something Apple really has to worry about. They have gone to alot of effort over the years to ensure this is the case. Plus if they were really bothered, I'm sure they could restrict compatable drives using firmware patches or something.

You can get two Mac Minis for the price of an iMac G5. Keyboards and mice go for pennies on eBay, and there are plenty of charity shops who can sell you a cheap CRT or two (if you don't already have them). The Mini is the A Class Mercedes of the PC world. And how many people who can afford to buy and run a C Class or E Class, would rather have two A Classes instead?

Come to think of it, you could get four or five Minis for the price of a PowerMac. I wonder how the benchmarks would compare....

Mysteri0 · Feb 9, 2005, 08:26 PM

How exactly is that software KVM any different than Remote Desktop or VNC? It looks to do pretty much the same thing and you miss out on of the big features of a KVM, being able to access the hardware from outside the OS, IE say you want to boot your macmini from an external drive to do diagnostics or repair or whatever, you'd have to hook it up to the other computer because the KVM software doesn't load until the OS loads. Basically you're paying for software you can get for free which makes no sense to me whatsoever.

WoD · Feb 18, 2005, 08:46 AM

KMremoteControl is just VNC without the video feed. It seems odd to pay money to have featues REMOVED from VNC!

Has anyone found a free alternative, or a way to use VNC without the video feed - IE: just a COMMAND+Key hotkey you can press to switch control between computers. (or ideally, just move the mouse cursor off the screen onto the other one)

Ah, knew I had seen one before: http://synergy2.sourceforge.net/

And there is osx2x, but that does video also.