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You are here: MacNN Forums > Hardware - Troubleshooting and Discussion > Mac Notebooks > New Motorola chip paves way for 1.5GHz Powerbook G4, look like no G5 Powerbook next..

New Motorola chip paves way for 1.5GHz Powerbook G4, look like no G5 Powerbook next..
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nobitacu
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Feb 23, 2004, 01:02 PM
 
Just got this news from Macminute.com Bad news indeed for those waiting for the G5 Powerbooks... even though no one knows if Apple will use this new Motorola chip for updated the new Powerbooks or go straight to G5.

Ming

"Motorola chip 'paves way for 1.5GHz PowerBook G4'
February 23 - 12:33 EST__ Motorola today announced an updated version of its PowerPC G4 processor, "taking the part to 1.5GHz and paving the way for one more PowerBook G4 update before the line is upgraded to IBM's 90nm G5 chip," according to The Register. "The new Motorola part is dubbed the 7447A and adds on-the-fly clock frequency adjustment, allowing system makers to run at reduced frequencies according to workload. The upshot is longer battery life. There's now a temperature-sensing diodes included to monitor die temperature, too, Motorola says. Essentially, the 7447A is a revised 7447, itself a low-power version of the 7457. The 130nm 7447 is currently used by Apple in its PowerBook G4." _
A Proud Mac User Since: 03/24/03
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Kenneth
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Feb 23, 2004, 01:28 PM
 
Yes.. I know there is still one more G4 update before the G5.
     
Eug Wanker
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Feb 23, 2004, 01:34 PM
 
My thoughts on the subject are here.

Basically, for a PowerBook, a G4 1.5 is plausible, but so is a G5 1.6. The same applies for the iMac.
     
MrCaN
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Feb 23, 2004, 02:19 PM
 
I'm happy with a upgrade to the G4, I want to order a 15" powerbook, but just keep waiting for the next revision, which I can do, but not sure for how much longer before I will just break down and buy the current one.
Mr. CaN
     
iREZ
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Feb 23, 2004, 03:26 PM
 
I just hope that the 12" doesnt get 64MB video. That would piss me off, Video memory was the only reason I was considering the 15" but price and portability made me go with the 12. Oh well, whats done is done and Im happy with what I got.
NOW YOU SEE ME! 2.4 MBP and 2.0 MBP (running ubuntu)
     
selowitch
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Feb 23, 2004, 04:05 PM
 
Originally posted by iREZ:
I just hope that the 12" doesnt get 64MB video.
That's quite a nasty bit of schadenfreude on your part, isn't it? Why not just be happy for those who would buy a 64MB VRAM PowerBook at some future date?
     
iREZ
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Feb 23, 2004, 04:23 PM
 
I guess that's a little bit of stubborness coming out. Your right, I'm sorry. Just being protective over my investment.
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Fozz_uk
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Feb 23, 2004, 04:26 PM
 
Personally I think that these are destined for an eventual G4 iBook revision. There would be no point in placing another over-bumped, near-obselete processor into Apple's "pro" notebooks. The PowerBook should be at the pinnacle of innovation, not struggling with a clapped-out old CPU.

Apple know this. They are aware of the slight difference between their two notebooks. They know that buyers are holding out until a meaningful new model comes out. As such they will also be working like hell to improve the PB. G5 notebooks sooner rather than later I feel.
     
rambo47
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Feb 23, 2004, 04:26 PM
 
His Steveness said last summer that the G4 would be with us for some time yet. I thought there might be 2 speed bumps for the G4 PowerBook lineup before the G5. There's at least one according to the article on The Register. When the dust settles the lineup should look like this:

G4
iBook
iMac
eMac

G5
PowerMac
PowerBook
     
selowitch
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Feb 23, 2004, 04:31 PM
 
Originally posted by iREZ:
I guess that's a little bit of stubborness coming out. Your right, I'm sorry. Just being protective over my investment.
I actually don't blame you at all. Couldn't resist tweakin' ya, though.

     
onaujee
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Feb 23, 2004, 05:06 PM
 
When are we gonna see these updated PB's? April maybe? When did the 17" come out?
     
djohnson
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Feb 23, 2004, 05:18 PM
 
Now why would Steve *always* tell the truth???
     
Scooterboy
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Feb 23, 2004, 09:06 PM
 
Another G4 on a 167 MHz system bus. PC laptops are already on up to 800 MHz Front Side Bus.

PowerBook G5 at 1.6 GHz would be on 800 MHz FSB, no?
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NYCFarmboy
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Feb 23, 2004, 09:54 PM
 
reading the fine print..the 1.5 chips are made by Motorola? Does Apple still buy any chips made by Motorola? I thought they were all from IBM now?

my ibook is getting ready to die...I think the hard drive is failing... I WISH Apple would put out a 1.5 G4 12" Powebook.>I'd buy one in a heartbeat!
     
ingeniero
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Feb 23, 2004, 10:01 PM
 
Originally posted by MrCaN:
I'm happy with a upgrade to the G4, I want to order a 15" powerbook, but just keep waiting for the next revision, which I can do, but not sure for how much longer before I will just break down and buy the current one.
I'm with you. I'm waiting for Rev B on the Albooks 15". If Apple whips out a G5 next, I'm tempted to go for that if the form factor stays the same, instead of rev B G5 PB.
     
slider
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Feb 23, 2004, 10:18 PM
 
I think Apple will get a G5 in a powerbook as soon as possible. I really don't think Apple is thinking, "well, we can't increase the speed to fast, give it to 'em nice and slow", yeah really don't think so. I am sure it is a design issue at this point. Right now I haven't a clue as to what Apple is up to, kinda exciting to see what's going to come and when.
     
dantley
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Feb 23, 2004, 10:26 PM
 
Originally posted by nobitacu:
Just got this news from Macminute.com Bad news indeed for those waiting for the G5 Powerbooks... even though no one knows if Apple will use this new Motorola chip for updated the new Powerbooks or go straight to G5.

Ming

"Motorola chip 'paves way for 1.5GHz PowerBook G4'
February 23 - 12:33 EST__ Motorola today announced an updated version of its PowerPC G4 processor, "taking the part to 1.5GHz and paving the way for one more PowerBook G4 update before the line is upgraded to IBM's 90nm G5 chip," according to The Register. "The new Motorola part is dubbed the 7447A and adds on-the-fly clock frequency adjustment, allowing system makers to run at reduced frequencies according to workload. The upshot is longer battery life. There's now a temperature-sensing diodes included to monitor die temperature, too, Motorola says. Essentially, the 7447A is a revised 7447, itself a low-power version of the 7457. The 130nm 7447 is currently used by Apple in its PowerBook G4." _
Did you seriously think you would see a G5 PowerBook before another speed bump? The 15" PB is too new for Apple to do that.
     
dantley
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Feb 23, 2004, 10:27 PM
 
Originally posted by ingeniero:
I'm with you. I'm waiting for Rev B on the Albooks 15". If Apple whips out a G5 next, I'm tempted to go for that if the form factor stays the same, instead of rev B G5 PB.
Wouldn't it be awful if the PB G5 came out a few months after the rev b PB? LOL
     
HasanDaddy
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Feb 23, 2004, 10:30 PM
 
wouldn't it have been awful if a 17" PB came out a month after a new 1 ghz Ti with Superdrive???

ohhhh wait

that did happen!
"Government is not the solution, its the problem" --- Ronald Reagan
     
shabbasuraj
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Feb 23, 2004, 10:32 PM
 
Originally posted by dantley:
Wouldn't it be awful if the PB G5 came out a few months after the rev b PB? LOL
no that would be great...

anything to end the sufferring of the problematic 15" PB would be welcome...
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dantley
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Feb 23, 2004, 10:50 PM
 
Originally posted by shabbasuraj:
no that would be great...

anything to end the sufferring of the problematic 15" PB would be welcome...
i have a 15" AlBook with no problems. I purchased it earlier this month.
     
shabbasuraj
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Feb 23, 2004, 11:04 PM
 
Originally posted by dantley:
i have a 15" AlBook with no problems. I purchased it earlier this month.
lucky.
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dantley
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Feb 24, 2004, 12:21 AM
 
Originally posted by shabbasuraj:
lucky.
More people are "lucky" than not.
     
shabbasuraj
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Feb 24, 2004, 01:01 AM
 
Originally posted by dantley:
More people are "lucky" than not.
sure.
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solitere
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Feb 24, 2004, 02:20 AM
 
Originally posted by nobitacu:
"Motorola chip 'paves way for 1.5GHz PowerBook G4'
February 23 - 12:33 EST__ Motorola today announced an updated version of its PowerPC G4 processor, "taking the part to 1.5GHz and paving the way for one more PowerBook G4 update before the line is upgraded to IBM's 90nm G5 chip," according to The Register. "The new Motorola part is dubbed the 7447A and adds on-the-fly clock frequency adjustment, allowing system makers to run at reduced frequencies according to workload. The upshot is longer battery life. There's now a temperature-sensing diodes included to monitor die temperature, too, Motorola says. Essentially, the 7447A is a revised 7447, itself a low-power version of the 7457. The 130nm 7447 is currently used by Apple in its PowerBook G4." _

If one could get hold of the 1.5 Ghz chip. Could I then just remove the old 1 Ghz Chip on my 12" PB and replace it whith the new one?
     
acadian
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Feb 24, 2004, 02:52 AM
 
Once a G5 PB is up to 2 Ghz I'l upgrade, just bought a 1.33 17" and it's just fine for now.
people ruin everything....
     
selowitch
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Feb 24, 2004, 08:21 AM
 
Originally posted by solitere:
If one could get hold of the 1.5 Ghz chip. Could I then just remove the old 1 Ghz Chip on my 12" PB and replace it whith the new one?
That would be great but I'd have to say it's doubtful. The processors tend to soldered directly to the motherboard, making modification all but impossible.
     
Eug Wanker
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Feb 24, 2004, 08:36 AM
 
Originally posted by acadian:
Once a G5 PB is up to 2 Ghz I'l upgrade, just bought a 1.33 17" and it's just fine for now.
I have a 1 GHz 15". I'll upgrade for a 1.8 GHz G5 for sure, but maybe or maybe not for a 1.6 GHz G5. We'll see what options Apple gives us...
     
Pierre B.
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Feb 24, 2004, 10:09 AM
 
OK, today Macminute has another story, which would make happy people waiting for the G5 Powerbook.

On another note, I would like to bring to your attention the availability of the new G4: according to Motorola, the 7447A is right now available to selected customers in initial samples. Can anyone make a guess on when main production could be achieved? I would say no sooner than 3 months from now. If true, this leads to a summer introduction of the new Powerbooks (but we all know Motorola...). With what, a G4? So, G5 Powerbook for when? Well in 2005? While the 970FX is available now?
( Last edited by Pierre B.; Feb 24, 2004 at 10:30 AM. )
     
BrunoBruin
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Feb 24, 2004, 10:41 AM
 
Originally posted by Pierre B.:
Can anyone make a guess on when main production could be achieved?
Apple could have parts in shipping quantities right now. Apple has, in the past, had access to faster parts than Moto has publicly disclosed, or at least had them before Moto announced them. Power Macs were shipping with 1.25GHz chips for ages while Moto's site listed parts with a top speed of 1GHz. In fact I think they were still listing 1GHz as the top speed for the 7455 when Apple was shipping 1.42GHz Power Macs.
     
tkmd
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Feb 24, 2004, 10:56 AM
 
Remember, clock for clock the g4 is faster than the G5 in the lower clock frequency (1-1.4). Look at the comparisons done between the 1.6 G5 and the 1.42 G4. I think that this may be due to the lower pipeline and thus latency of the G4. Its only at higher speeds that the G4 loses this edge and G5 begins to show its muscle.
Additionally, I think that altivec is superior in the G4e vs G5. But the G4 is at the end of its line.
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Pierre B.
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Feb 24, 2004, 11:07 AM
 
Originally posted by BrunoBruin:
Apple could have parts in shipping quantities right now. Apple has, in the past, had access to faster parts than Moto has publicly disclosed, or at least had them before Moto announced them.
I think you answer a question a little different than the one I am asking. What you say holds very well when it comes to chip frequency of available processors. Apple obtained always higher clock speeds than the ones listed by Motorola.

Now, the situation is somewhat different. The question is not if Apple will receive and use 1.3 or 1.5 parts. We have here a new chip, with new technology (dynamically adjustable frequency) and Motorola publicly says that selected customers (see Apple) have only initial samples. The question is, when mass production will start, at whatever clock frequency.
     
Pierre B.
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Feb 24, 2004, 11:18 AM
 
Originally posted by tkmd:
Remember, clock for clock the g4 is faster than the G5 in the lower clock frequency (1-1.4).
This is partially true. Look for example at the specifications of the new G4 and G5. There are Dhrystone 2.1 MIPS benchmarks therein. Now, the results are for 1.3 GHz G4, 1.8 Ghz 970 and 2.0 GHz 970FX. Even if you assume that G4's performance can scale linearly with the frequency and recalculate the results for a G4 at 1.8 GHz and 2.0 Ghz, you will find that the 970 performs 40% better than the G4, while the 970FX performs 64% better at the same frequency. I think this is due to the very strong FPU in the G5 and perhaps other architectural advantages of the G5. In practice, the G5 advantage would be even greater since there is no way to scale the current G4 architecture so high without deepening the pipelines.
( Last edited by Pierre B.; Feb 24, 2004 at 11:43 AM. )
     
scottiB
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Feb 24, 2004, 12:05 PM
 
More chum:

http://www.appleturns.com/#2

... But we have heard a few whispers here and there that zippier portables, both consumer and pro, are due sooner rather than later. How's that for vague?

Ooooh, see? News of a slightly faster G4 chip may not float your boat directly, but turn it into the prospect of revised 'Books and that boat starts getting a little buoyant. Because you never know; alongside a processor boost, Apple might also increase RAM and hard drive sizes, and maybe even trim prices a little. Faster G4s are just a teensy piece of the puzzle. Heck, suddenly the whole thing even seems exciting! Sort of. A little.

Doesn't it?

Sigh. Okay, fine-- come back when there's G5 news. We understand.
While AtAT is not a rumor site, per se, when they do intimate rumors (the few times a year that they they do), the rumors are dead-on.
( Last edited by scottiB; Feb 24, 2004 at 03:15 PM. )
     
BrunoBruin
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Feb 24, 2004, 12:35 PM
 
Originally posted by Pierre B.:
The question is, when mass production will start, at whatever clock frequency.
That was kind of what I was getting at; Moto might say publicly that they are only shipping samples, but they might already be in mass production and shipping stock to Apple. We just don't know.

Someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but I can't recall a recent chip intro where Moto actually got out ahead of Apple shipping a product. Usually someone would actually have to get the new Mac in their hands before we knew there had been a processor revision. That happened with the first Apollo chips. Eug probably remembers this better than I.
     
Eug Wanker
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Feb 24, 2004, 02:56 PM
 
Originally posted by tkmd:
Remember, clock for clock the g4 is faster than the G5 in the lower clock frequency (1-1.4).
Maybe, maybe not. It probably goes something like this, in terms of G4>G5 clock for clock:

1) Integer: sometimes
2) Altivec: often (but sometimes the G5 would be able to keep up, esp. if the code is bound by memory bandwidth)
3) Floating point: almost never - The G5 destroys the G4 clock for clock.

Plus, even in a PowerBook, a G5 would probably be running at a slightly higher clock.

Originally posted by Pierre B.:
This is partially true. Look for example at the specifications of the new G4 and G5. There are Dhrystone 2.1 MIPS benchmarks therein. Now, the results are for 1.3 GHz G4, 1.8 Ghz 970 and 2.0 GHz 970FX. Even if you assume that G4's performance can scale linearly with the frequency and recalculate the results for a G4 at 1.8 GHz and 2.0 Ghz, you will find that the 970 performs 40% better than the G4, while the 970FX performs 64% better at the same frequency. I think this is due to the very strong FPU in the G5 and perhaps other architectural advantages of the G5. In practice, the G5 advantage would be even greater since there is no way to scale the current G4 architecture so high without deepening the pipelines.
I think the G5 MIPS numbers are a typo. They've said before that the 1.8 GHz G5 gets 5220, which works out to 2.9/MHz. Then they said 5800 for the 2.0 (which made perfect sense, since 5220x2.0/1.8=5800) and 7584 for the 1.8 (which made no sense). Now they're saying 5800 for the 1.8 and 7584 for the 2.0 (which still makes no sense scaling up the numbers).

Thus it's probably 2.9/MHz for the G5 and 2.1/MHz for the G4. Still that's a 38% increase in MIPS performance clock for clock.

OTOH, it's not really a very good benchmark by most measures.
( Last edited by Eug Wanker; Feb 24, 2004 at 03:04 PM. )
     
Pierre B.
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Feb 24, 2004, 03:38 PM
 
Originally posted by Eug Wanker:
I think the G5 MIPS numbers are a typo...Now they're saying 5800 for the 1.8 and 7584 for the 2.0 (which still makes no sense scaling up the numbers).
Perhaps not. It is not supposed that the 970FX is faster than the 970 for the same clock speed, because of the SSOI technology? Or am I mistaken?


OTOH, it's not really a very good benchmark by most measures.
Certainly, but it is the one both manufacturers are using.
     
daimoni
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Feb 24, 2004, 05:24 PM
 
I'm just so happy I have a 1.25 PB right now instead of losing sleep over what might or will come out... eventually.

I don't imagine I'll be in a hurry to upgrade for a few years - and until then, I'll be enjoying every minute of it.
     
MrCaN
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Feb 24, 2004, 05:42 PM
 
I would just like to see a rev. b on the 15 so I can purchase one, I would rather have the new chip in a rev. b then get a rev. a G5, besides I don't need the power of a G5.
Mr. CaN
     
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Feb 24, 2004, 06:25 PM
 
Besides the CPU, G4 or G5, there is the bus. A G5 and elastic bus (say 1.6 GHz, 800 MHz FSB) would destroy a 1.5 GHz G4 on its maximum bus speed pf 167 MHz.

Hey, aren't PC laptops up to 800 MHz FSB these days?
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toshigen
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Feb 24, 2004, 10:05 PM
 
Originally posted by Eug Wanker:
I have a 1 GHz 15". I'll upgrade for a 1.8 GHz G5 for sure, but maybe or maybe not for a 1.6 GHz G5. We'll see what options Apple gives us...
I'm using a 500MHz Pismo, and will buy a new machine when the G5 laptops come out and happily be a Rev. A guinea pig. A 1.8 GHz 17" model would be nice.

If they do a round of revisions using a G4 processor, I won't buy it. G4? No thanks.

My Pismo is definitely showing it's age, but is okay for now (along with a faster desktop PC which I use for graphic design sometimes).
     
toshigen
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Feb 24, 2004, 10:13 PM
 
Originally posted by Scooterboy:
Besides the CPU, G4 or G5, there is the bus. A G5 and elastic bus (say 1.6 GHz, 800 MHz FSB) would destroy a 1.5 GHz G4 on its maximum bus speed pf 167 MHz.

Hey, aren't PC laptops up to 800 MHz FSB these days?
Yes, some PC laptops have 800 MHz FSB now, like this Alienware laptop (also of interest is the user-upgradeable graphics card... I guess they're betting on ATI using the same form factor for the next few generations of their graphics cards):

Alienware Magnesium Alloy Chassis
Intel Pentium 4 @ 3.0GHz 800FSB
Hyperthreading Technology
User-Upgradeable Graphics
ATI Mobility Radeon 9600 PRO 128MB
15.4"inch WideSXGA+ 1680x1050 LCD
60GB 7200rpm HDD with 8MB Cache
Infrared Remote control
3-in-1 Multimedia Card Reader
24x CDRW / 8X DVD Combo Drive

Price: $2,356.00
     
Pierre B.
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Feb 25, 2004, 03:50 AM
 
Originally posted by toshigen:
Yes, some PC laptops have 800 MHz FSB now, like this Alienware laptop
Or this one.

Price: according to configuration, starts at ~1500 Euros.
     
tkmd
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Feb 25, 2004, 07:39 AM
 
Originally posted by tkmd:
Remember, clock for clock the g4 is faster than the G5 in the lower clock frequency (1-1.4). Look at the comparisons done between the 1.6 G5 and the 1.42 G4. I think that this may be due to the lower pipeline and thus latency of the G4. Its only at higher speeds that the G4 loses this edge and G5 begins to show its muscle.
Additionally, I think that altivec is superior in the G4e vs G5. But the G4 is at the end of its line.

here is the link I was looking for - note the photoshop test where multi processor advantage was disabled note that the 1.42 G4 was faster than the 1.6G5
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Pierre B.
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Feb 25, 2004, 08:28 AM
 
Originally posted by tkmd:
here is the link I was looking for - note the photoshop test where multi processor advantage was disabled note that the 1.42 G4 was faster than the 1.6G5
Two issues with that: (1) Photoshop itself and (2) the compilers used, were not appropriately tuned for the G5 architecture. It would be interesting to see the results of the same test with a heavily G5-optimised Photoshop (or some other application), IBM's compilers and a process capable to keep completely busy the 800-1000 MHz G5 bus moving huge amounts of data.
     
   
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