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CBS obtains photos showing alleged abuse (Page 12)
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spacefreak
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May 10, 2004, 04:16 PM
 
Originally posted by Wiskedjak:
There is no better way to guage a society than to look at how it treats it's prisoners.
How many times are you going to repeat this? We were able to understand you the first time you wrote this.

Repeating it every other post is not going to make those who disagree with you suddenly accept your vision of the world.
     
Wiskedjak
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May 10, 2004, 04:18 PM
 
Originally posted by BigMeatyChunks:
One has to wonder why some Iraqis are locked up and not others. Wonder why that is?
Yes, one does have to wonder. One must also, then, wonder why some Iraqis were locked up under Saddam Hussein and not others.

Just because people are locked up doesn't mean they are guilty.
Just because people are guilty doesn't mean you can take do whatever you wish to them.
     
Wiskedjak
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May 10, 2004, 04:19 PM
 
Originally posted by spacefreak:
How many times are you going to repeat this? We were able to understand you the first time you wrote this.
Apparently some didn't.
     
BRussell
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May 10, 2004, 04:20 PM
 
Originally posted by BigMeatyChunks:
Are they all really classified as POWs? I don't recall them having that classification, thus, the GCs don't apply.
RUMSFELD:_Well, the -- as the chief of staff of the Army can tell you, the guards are trained to guard people._They're not trained to interrogate, they're not -- and their instructions are to, in the case of Iraq, adhere to the Geneva Convention._

The Geneva Conventions apply to all of the individuals there in one way or another._They apply to the prisoners of war, and they are written out and they're instructed and the people in the Army train them to that and the people in the Central Command have the responsibility of seeing that, in fact, their conduct is consistent with the Geneva Conventions._

The criminals in the same detention facility are handled under a different provision of the Geneva Convention -- I believe it's the fourth and the prior one's the third._

MCCAIN:_So the guards were instructed to treat the prisoners, under some kind of changing authority as I understand it, according to the Geneva Conventions?

RUMSFELD:_Absolutely._
     
Wiskedjak
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May 10, 2004, 04:20 PM
 
Originally posted by BigMeatyChunks:
Prisoners deserve no rights. There's no better way to gauge a society than how tough it is on prisoners.
Then why are they just not executed?
     
Wiskedjak
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May 10, 2004, 04:23 PM
 
Originally posted by BigMeatyChunks:
You are making the assumption that all those prisoners were innocent.
And you are making the assumption that they aren't

Originally posted by BigMeatyChunks:
Should a murderer or rapist or thief be treated with a slice of cake and tea?
Of course not. But nor should they be treated as the ones in theses photos were.
     
eklipse
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May 10, 2004, 04:26 PM
 
Originally posted by BigMeatyChunks:
Prisoners deserve no rights. There's no better way to gauge a society than how tough it is on prisoners.
ROFL!

It just gets better!

By that logic, Saddam's Iraq must've been a virtual utopia!
     
BigMeatyChunks
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May 10, 2004, 04:29 PM
 
Originally posted by Wiskedjak:
Then why are they just not executed?
Obviously executing purse snatchers would be a bit severe for the crime committed.
     
Taliesin
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May 10, 2004, 04:31 PM
 
Originally posted by BigMeatyChunks:
You are making the assumption that all those prisoners were innocent. Why don't we ask the question of how or why they are locked up to begin with? Should a murderer or rapist or thief be treated with a slice of cake and tea?
I think you have too many Big Meaty Chunks in the place your brain should reside:

The US-army not only emprisons criminals or resistance-fighters, the army also emprisons whole families be they innocent or not, just in order to gain informations about other resistance-fighters, women, children and men all at once emprisoned after a house-raid, just in the hope to somehow gain informations about resistance-fighters.

And the torturing, and raping of women and children fits in that analysis perfectly.

Regarding your comment about prisoners not having any rights:
Perhaps you have forgotten that all prisoners in Iraq are in prisons without any judge or court-hearing without any proof whatsoever.

But even if every proof was brought to a judge and these prisoners are convicted, it doesn't strip them of any rights they have, espescially if the US-law prohibits the abuse of prisoners.

What I mean is that the US-army isn't allowed to just act like they want, they have to adhere to some sets of laws, be it US-laws or international laws like the geneve-conventions...

What I want to say is that it's not the right of the secretary of defense or the military intelligence to decide what rights prisoners have or not, that's the decision of the lawmaker..

If the law of the USA says that it's alright to torture prisoners in war, then eventhough it's horrific it would be at least somehow defendable.

Taliesin
     
theolein
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May 10, 2004, 04:36 PM
 
Originally posted by BigMeatyChunks:
One has to wonder why some Iraqis are locked up and not others. Wonder why that is?
Have you actually RTFA? i.e. Have you actually read any of the transcripts that prisoners have recounted? None of them have been actually PROVEN (read the nytimes article I posted above) as being terrorists (The US army let the guy go after 8 MONTHS!!!! for crying out loud, never having been charged, nothing).

Your arguments border on the support of genocide!
weird wabbit
     
BigMeatyChunks
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May 10, 2004, 04:37 PM
 
Originally posted by Taliesin:
The US-army not only emprisons criminals or resistance-fighters, the army also emprisons whole families be they innocent or not, just in order to gain informations about other resistance-fighters, women, children and men all at once emprisoned after a house-raid, just in the hope to somehow gain informations about resistance-fighters.
Links?

And the torturing, and raping of women and children fits in that analysis perfectly.
Links?

Regarding your comment about prisoners not having any rights:
Perhaps you have forgotten that all prisoners in Iraq are in prisons without any judge or court-hearing without any proof whatsoever.
That would be why they are prisoners. People get locked up in the US as well until trial.

But even if every proof was brought to a judge and these prisoners are convicted, it doesn't strip them of any rights they have, espescially if the US-law prohibits the abuse of prisoners.
US law doesn't necessarily apply there.

What I mean is that the US-army isn't allowed to just act like they want, they have to adhere to some sets of laws, be it US-laws or international laws like the geneve-conventions...
No, they are not.

What I want to say is that it's not the right of the secretary of defense or the military intelligence to decide what rights prisoners have or not, that's the decision of the lawmaker..
It's the decision of military commanders on how to classify prisoners.
     
BRussell
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May 10, 2004, 05:13 PM
 
Originally posted by theolein:
Have you actually RTFA? i.e. Have you actually read any of the transcripts that prisoners have recounted? None of them have been actually PROVEN (read the nytimes article I posted above) as being terrorists (The US army let the guy go after 8 MONTHS!!!! for crying out loud, never having been charged, nothing).

Your arguments border on the support of genocide!
I'm not sure why you're debating someone who is so obviously a 15-year-old troll with nothing substantive to add like chunks/ghostflash/netgear or whoever it is. Hmmm, maybe a better question is: why does the pro-Bush side seem to be represented by so many 15-year-old trolls with nothing substantive to add. If there were people with reasoned arguments to make around here, it might actually be interesting to debate things.
     
gatekeeper
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May 10, 2004, 06:11 PM
 
Originally posted by dialo:
^^^^ The consequence of apple making computers easy to use.
     
angaq0k  (op)
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May 10, 2004, 06:16 PM
 
Back on topic, here is a photomontage from Hersh, taken from NewYorker


His latest article
"******* politics is for the ******* moment. ******** equations are for ******** Eternity." ******** Albert Einstein
     
gatekeeper
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May 10, 2004, 06:16 PM
 
     
dialo
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May 10, 2004, 08:37 PM
 
In a report issued in February, the Red Cross stated that some military intelligence officers estimated 70 percent to 90 percent of "the persons deprived of their liberty in Iraq had been arrested by mistake." Of the 43,000 Iraqis who have been imprisoned at some point during the occupation, only about 600 have been referred to Iraqi authorities for prosecution, according to U.S. officials.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...2004May10.html
     
angaq0k  (op)
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May 10, 2004, 08:41 PM
 
"******* politics is for the ******* moment. ******** equations are for ******** Eternity." ******** Albert Einstein
     
Wiskedjak
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May 10, 2004, 09:43 PM
 
Originally posted by BigMeatyChunks:
Prisoners deserve no rights. There's no better way to gauge a society than how tough it is on prisoners.
So, I'm guessing then that you feel it would be ok for those found guilty of the photographed acts to be treated in the same manner that they treated their prisoners?
     
gatekeeper
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May 11, 2004, 03:37 AM
 
Originally posted by Wiskedjak:
So, I'm guessing then that you feel it would be ok for those found guilty of the photographed acts to be treated in the same manner that they treated their prisoners?
Why find them guilty before torturing them? The Iraqis weren't given that luxury.
     
Spheric Harlot
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May 11, 2004, 05:10 AM
 
All this time (i.e. since the collapse of all the more "imminent" reasons), the right's entire argument for the invasion has been to bring Freedom, Justice, and the American Way� to Iraq.

On this page alone, you've been claiming that the American Way� involves considering somebody guilty before they're put on trial, torture, and generally being just as evil as the dictator you ousted because he was evil and didn't afford the Iraqis the luxuries of American Justice�.

Also, this article correlates the claim by the Washington Post article above that up to 9 out of 10 Iraqis imprisoned by the coalition ARE, in fact, innocent.



-s*
( Last edited by Spheric Harlot; May 11, 2004 at 10:27 AM. )
     
eklipse
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May 11, 2004, 05:47 AM
 
pssst! Spheric! I think you just eviscerated the wrong guy!
     
Spheric Harlot
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May 11, 2004, 10:29 AM
 
You are so correct, eklipse.

fix0r3d.

-s*
     
 
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