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CBS obtains photos showing alleged abuse
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angaq0k
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Apr 28, 2004, 09:48 PM
 
CBS: Six MPs face court-martial for treatment of Iraqi prisoners

Of course, this explains nothing about Fallujah.

Of course not.
"******* politics is for the ******* moment. ******** equations are for ******** Eternity." ******** Albert Einstein
     
itai195
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Apr 28, 2004, 09:53 PM
 
Eh? This is about an incident that happened a year go.
     
Zimphire
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Apr 28, 2004, 09:53 PM
 
Yes unlike other countries, we punish those who commit war crimes.

And so they should be.

Weed out the bad few before they make the whole lot rotten.
     
snickerdoodle
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Apr 28, 2004, 09:54 PM
 
Wow, great, like the perpetrators are getting disciplined and stuff.
     
angaq0k  (op)
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Apr 28, 2004, 10:09 PM
 
Originally posted by snickerdoodle:
Wow, great, like the perpetrators are getting disciplined and stuff.
I really wonder how someone is supposed to be punished. Would you see U.S. soldiers treated the same way, if they had done something wrong, similarly wrong to what the Iraqi prisoners did to earn their imprisonment?
"******* politics is for the ******* moment. ******** equations are for ******** Eternity." ******** Albert Einstein
     
snickerdoodle
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Apr 28, 2004, 10:37 PM
 
You mean like the bodies that got burned on the bridge and stuff?

100,000+ soldiers and a handful get in trouble. Wow, like, yeah, man, that's horrible. The U.S. military overall is such a vicious machine with no regards at all for civilians or prisoners.
     
ink
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Apr 28, 2004, 10:38 PM
 
Originally posted by angaq0k:
I really wonder how someone is supposed to be punished. Would you see U.S. soldiers treated the same way, if they had done something wrong, similarly wrong to what the Iraqi prisoners did to earn their imprisonment?
Hmm, let's give them over to their Iraqis.
     
Zimphire
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Apr 28, 2004, 10:39 PM
 
Originally posted by snickerdoodle:
You mean like the bodies that got burned on the bridge and stuff?

100,000+ soldiers and a handful get in trouble. Wow, like, yeah, man, that's horrible. The U.S. military overall is such a vicious machine with no regards at all for civilians or prisoners.
Yup, bunch of Drama.
     
ink
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Apr 28, 2004, 10:50 PM
 
Originally posted by Zimphire:
Yup, bunch of Drama.
They had ELECTRODES hooked up to one man's tesicles. They beat the sh*t out of another one. They made a human pyramid out of naked prisoners. They posed prisoners in homo-erotic positions and did "thumbs up" in the picture.

Now, I agree that this is a minor minor minor percentage of soldiers; but DRAMA? Please.
     
Shaddim
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Apr 28, 2004, 11:08 PM
 
Originally posted by angaq0k:
I really wonder how someone is supposed to be punished. Would you see U.S. soldiers treated the same way, if they had done something wrong, similarly wrong to what the Iraqi prisoners did to earn their imprisonment?
If found guilty, which seems to be likely given the evidence, I'd say they'll be court marshalled and spend a very long time in Leavenworth.
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
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Zimphire
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Apr 28, 2004, 11:15 PM
 
Yes Drama. As if this is happening ALL THE TIME.

This is an isolated incident. They are taking care of the people who did it.

Now, What is Iraq doing about the people that murdered and hung those people on the bridge?
     
Jihad on Tap
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Apr 28, 2004, 11:43 PM
 
Originally posted by angaq0k:
Of course, this explains nothing about Fallujah.

Of course not.
As if you'd care for any logical explanation of anything that counters your beliefs, seared in as they are by years of hatred, ignorance, and pinko philosophy.
     
Dale Sorel
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Apr 29, 2004, 12:27 AM
 
Originally posted by snickerdoodle:
The U.S. military overall is such a vicious machine with no regards at all for civilians or prisoners.
Good one... I'm sure the terrorists cried themselves to sleep about how those two planes accidently hit those skyscrapers
     
Face Ache
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Apr 29, 2004, 01:30 AM
 
One picture shows an Iraqi prisoner who was told to stand on a box with his head covered and wires attached to his hands. CBS said the prisoner was told that if he fell off the box, he would be electrocuted.

In another photograph, prisoners� bodies were stacked in a pyramid, and one man had a slur written in English on his skin.
Hello Everyone, I am taking time to ask you all for your help.

First off, I'd like to say that this is not a political message. I'm not concerned about domestic politics right now. We have much bigger things to deal with, and we need your help.

It seems that despite the tremendous and heroic efforts of the men and women serving here in Iraq to bring much needed peace and stability to this region, we are losing the war of perception with the media and American people. Our enemy has learned that the key to defeating the mighty American military is by swaying public opinion at home and abroad. We are a people that cherish the democratic system of government and therefore hold the will of the people in the highest regard. We love to criticize ourselves almost to an endless degree, because we care what others think. Our enemies see this as a weakness and are trying to exploit it.

When we ask ourselves questions like, "Why do they hate us?" or "What did we do wrong?" we are playing into our enemies' hands. Our natural tendency to question ourselves is being used against us to undermine our effort to do good in the world. How far would we have gotten if after the surprise attacks on December 7, 1941 at Pearl Harbor, we would have asked, "Why do the Japanese hate us so much?" or "How can we change ourselves so that they won't do that again?" Here in Iraq the enemy is trying very hard to portray our efforts as failing and fruitless. They kill innocents and desecrate their bodies in hopes that the people back home will lose the will to fight for liberty. They are betting on our perceived weakness as a thoughtful, considerate people. Unfortunately our media only serves to further their cause.

In an industry that feeds on ratings and bad news, a failure in Iraq would be a goldmine. When our so-called "trusted" American media takes a quote from an Iraqi doctor as the gospel truth over that of the men and women that are daily fighting to protect the right to freedom of press, you know something is wrong. That doctor claimed that out of 600 Iraqis, that were casualties of the fighting, the vast majority of them were women, children and the elderly. This is totally absurd. In the history of man, no one has spent more time and effort, often to the detriment of our own mission, to be more discriminate in our targeting of the enemy than the American military. The Marines and Soldiers serving in Iraq have gone through extensive training in order to limit the amount of innocent casualties and collateral damage.

Yet, despite all of this, our media consistently sides with those who openly lie and directly challenge the honor of our brave heroes fighting for liberty and peace. What we have to remember is that peace is not defined as an absence of war. It is the presence of liberty, stability, and prosperity. In the face of the horrendous tyranny of the former Iraqi regime, the only way true peace was able to come to this region was through force. That is what the American Revolution was all about. Have we forgotten? Freedom is not free and "peace" without principle is not peace. The peace that so-called "peace advocates" support can only be brought to Iraq through the military. And we are doing it, if only the world will let us! If the American people believe we are failing, even if we are not, then we will ultimately fail.

That is why I am asking for your support. Become a voice of truth in your community. Wherever you are fight the lies of the enemy. Don't buy into the pessimism and apathy that says, "It's hopeless," "They hate us too much," "That part of the world is just too messed up," "It's our fault anyway," "We're to blame," and so forth. Whether you're in middle school, working at a 9-5 job, retired, or a stay-at-home mom you can make a huge difference! There is nothing more powerful than the truth. So, when you watch the news and see doomsday predictions and spiteful opinions on our efforts over here, you can refute them by knowing that we are doing a tremendous amount of good. Spread the word. No one is poised to make such an amazing contribution to the everyday lives of Iraqis and the rest of the Arab world than the American Armed Forces. By making this a place where liberty can finally grow, we are making the whole world safer. Your efforts at home are directly tied to our success. You are the soldiers at home fighting the war of perception. So I'm asking you as a fellow fighting man: Do your duty. Stop the attempts of the enemy wherever you are. You are a mighty force for good, because truth is on your side. Together we will win this fight and ensure a better world for the future.

God Bless and Semper Fidelis, 1st Lt. Robert L. Nofsinger USMC Ramadi, Iraq
Poor guy. Shot in the foot.

Or from behind.
     
quandarry
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Apr 29, 2004, 01:56 AM
 
Originally posted by Zimphire:
Yup, bunch of Drama.
zimph!....get back on your medication...
     
chalk_outline
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Apr 29, 2004, 02:40 AM
 
Ya know, I could understand this type of thing from a bunch of eighteen year olds. We have kids getting shot at. That would have messed me up at that age. You know the type. Would be frat boys with poor parents. But the one guy was like 40 years old. And a prison guard in real life. WTF? The idiot deserves to be tossed in a hole for awhile. And he claims they never told them not to do fake electrocutions and fake blow jobs. That makes it cool. Nobody told me not to rape my sister. Put the X over the O sister, I can't get busted for this, I didn't know it was wrong. That ****er should rot in a hole.
     
Spliffdaddy
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Apr 29, 2004, 02:50 AM
 
^

word

after 25 years of age, there is no reasonable excuse for doing dumbass stuff.
     
voodoo
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Apr 29, 2004, 05:24 AM
 
Originally posted by Jihad on Tap:
As if you'd care for any logical explanation of anything that counters your beliefs, seared in as they are by years of hatred, ignorance, and pinko philosophy.
Atef?
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voodoo
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Apr 29, 2004, 05:26 AM
 
Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
^

word

after 25 years of age, there is no reasonable excuse for doing dumbass stuff.
I still have time then
I could take Sean Connery in a fight... I could definitely take him.
     
Millennium
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Apr 29, 2004, 05:42 AM
 
Good. Those who commit atrocities such as this should be punished, and punished severely. Hell; given that this is for wartime actions they could theoretically administer the death penalty, though I'm not sure I'd go quite that far. Then again, perhaps it should be up to the Iraqis to decide their fate, should they be convicted.

However, to say that these six are somehow representative of the entire American military is patently absurd. If the US military in general has any fault in this, it is only that it took so long to start these proceedings. And while that is a great shame, it would seem as though the mistake is being corrected.
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angaq0k  (op)
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Apr 29, 2004, 06:16 AM
 
Originally posted by Millennium:
Good. Those who commit atrocities such as this should be punished, and punished severely. Hell; given that this is for wartime actions they could theoretically administer the death penalty, though I'm not sure I'd go quite that far. Then again, perhaps it should be up to the Iraqis to decide their fate, should they be convicted.

However, to say that these six are somehow representative of the entire American military is patently absurd. If the US military in general has any fault in this, it is only that it took so long to start these proceedings. And while that is a great shame, it would seem as though the mistake is being corrected.
Sorry, I should have specified that I was referring to the brutal slain of 4 "civilians" in Fallujah in the first post.

Also, I am not sure where it was mentioned that this was representative of the behavior of the U.S. participation in Iraq.
( Last edited by angaq0k; Apr 29, 2004 at 06:43 AM. )
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ghost_flash
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Apr 29, 2004, 10:19 AM
 
Nice non-story. The Brigadier General said, at the podium, this is not representative of the Armed Forces, as much as the libbies would like to think. What does John Effing Kerry think of it? He shot little children with a 50 cal. in a free-fire zone.

Pot-Kettle. You know the drill. (Pun intended).
...
     
chris v
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Apr 29, 2004, 11:12 AM
 
Originally posted by ghost_flash:
Nice non-story.
Rhetorical question:

Would it be a non-story if it were just a few bad apples in the Iraqi army treating just a few American POWs the same way, or would you be upset?

CV

When a true genius appears in the world you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him. -- Jonathan Swift.
     
Millennium
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Apr 29, 2004, 11:25 AM
 
Originally posted by angaq0k:
Also, I am not sure where it was mentioned that this was representative of the behavior of the U.S. participation in Iraq.
Then allow me to refresh your memory:
Of course, this explains nothing about Fallujah.

Of course not.
You state here -through not-so-thinly-veiled sarcasm- that the Fallujah situation is caused by the army's abuses. I hold that simply because six people have committed atrocities does not mean that the entire army is abusing people. The abuses of six MPs simply does not cause insurgency on this scale.
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kvm_mkdb
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Apr 29, 2004, 05:09 PM
 




http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/...224523783.html

This stuff is not some isolated incident - it's systematic.
Punishing a handful of scapegoats isn't going to cut it.

But we are soooo much better than Saddam...

Contra a barbárie, o estudo; Contra o individualismo, a solidariedade!
     
kvm_mkdb
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Apr 29, 2004, 05:12 PM
 
Originally posted by Millennium:
The abuses of six MPs simply does not cause insurgency on this scale.
But Innocents killed daily, peaceful demonstrators shot at and nightly raids, mass arrests and tales of mistreatment do.

Contra a barbárie, o estudo; Contra o individualismo, a solidariedade!
     
angaq0k  (op)
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Apr 29, 2004, 05:18 PM
 
Originally posted by Millennium:
Then allow me to refresh your memory:

You state here -through not-so-thinly-veiled sarcasm- that the Fallujah situation is caused by the army's abuses. I hold that simply because six people have committed atrocities does not mean that the entire army is abusing people. The abuses of six MPs simply does not cause insurgency on this scale.
I stand corrected. That was sarcasm, and it lead people to believe I was generalizing to the whole Coalition.

It also lead to believe that I believe that the act of a few was the cause of the uproar in Fallujah.

You are right. I do not know that for a fact.

But I believe in a possible domino effect. I also believe that the efforts done by the military to hush on some extreme (yet possibly very rare) situations of abuse towards Iraqi prisoners as well as prisoners, cannot be kept silent for long, that the population will hear about it, and they are bound to react to it, and that will feed rationalization supporting terrorist actions, and more people will get involved, because the way the Coalition has handled that situation is apparently making things worse (re: death of innocent civilians).

Especially if the Liberators are held so high in terms of their values (what they project), and what is expected to a population whom is just strating to get a taste for freeedom.

That is an explosive situation, that is bound to get worse with time.

I apologize for the sarcasm, but I hold tight on my opinion that human beings are not perfect, and benevolence to do good can be misinterpreted, especially if there are some exceptionaly rare bad apples amongst the Liberators.
"******* politics is for the ******* moment. ******** equations are for ******** Eternity." ******** Albert Einstein
     
fireside
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Apr 29, 2004, 05:30 PM
 
Originally posted by ghost_flash:
Nice non-story. The Brigadier General said, at the podium, this is not representative of the Armed Forces, as much as the libbies would like to think. What does John Effing Kerry think of it? He shot little children with a 50 cal. in a free-fire zone.

Pot-Kettle. You know the drill. (Pun intended).
taking lessons on turning a topic about one thing into a topic about something else? do you hate john kerry so much that you have to bring him up on every topic? how bout you give it a rest, mmkay? yes, we all know you don't like john kerry. that doesn't mean you need to bring him up on every topic.
     
ambush
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Apr 29, 2004, 06:14 PM
 
Originally posted by Zimphire:
Yes unlike other countries, we punish those who commit war crimes.

And so they should be.

Weed out the bad few before they make the whole lot rotten.
That's so nice, what they did.

BE PROUD.

PROUD TO BE A 'MERKIN

IN GOD WE TRUST
     
ambush
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Apr 29, 2004, 06:17 PM
 
Originally posted by Zimphire:
Yes Drama. As if this is happening ALL THE TIME.

This is an isolated incident. They are taking care of the people who did it.

Now, What is Iraq doing about the people that murdered and hung those people on the bridge?
THEY HAVE NO ****ING POWER OVER THAT. AND IT'S MORE THAN ONE PEOPLE, IT'S LIKELY 1000 ALTOGETHER.

How can you blame them for that? Thei country is being occupated by hostile merkins.

They had electrodes connected to prisonners' testicules
     
Face Ache
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Apr 29, 2004, 06:37 PM
 
I thought this thread would be five pages long by now.

****ing crickets chirping.

Show your outrage America. You're scaring us.
     
lil'babykitten
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Apr 29, 2004, 06:44 PM
 
Originally posted by Face Ache:
I thought this thread would be five pages long by now.

****ing crickets chirping.

Show your outrage America. You're scaring us.
It's just 'drama'.



Seriously, how is this any better than what was happening in the police cells when Saddam was in power?

The responses in this thread are ****ing amazing.
     
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Apr 29, 2004, 06:50 PM
 
Originally posted by Face Ache:
I thought this thread would be five pages long by now.

****ing crickets chirping.

Show your outrage America. You're scaring us.

Why should it? I see far more evidence of widespread celebrations over the deaths of soldiers by "civilians" and I see no outrage on anyone's part over that. Hell, I see plenty of people supporting uprisings and finding justifying it with some convoluted logic. Bomb an American civilian SUV, good for them because they shouldn't be there?

So if that is the standard by which things are to be done, I say hook up all their nuts to a car battery. At worst it will sterilize the fukers so there won't be more little "freedom fighter," as you people call them, running around.

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swrate
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Apr 29, 2004, 06:56 PM
 
I dont dare be disheartened more and read some of your smithy replies,


just to say, if it's those terrible pics i saw on the info today,
torture

I fear this may happen again, "free" from the army's responsability, milicians regarding all opponents -Iraqis- as terorists and spies, similar to under SH, those hired by the US will do the Security job instead. Spilling lifes.
     
itai195
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Apr 29, 2004, 07:02 PM
 
This thread gets a big from me.

The soldiers responsible are being punished, what more do you want?
     
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Apr 29, 2004, 07:05 PM
 
Originally posted by lil'babykitten:
Seriously, how is this any better than what was happening in the police cells when Saddam was in power?
Were the people killed? Shredded? Were the bodies dumped in a mass grave?

This is horrible. It's the work of (I supposed we have to say alleged) war criminals who should be prosecuted and are being prosecuted. But don't whitewash Saddam by equating this with his decades of atrocities.
     
lil'babykitten
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Apr 29, 2004, 07:14 PM
 
Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
Were the people killed? Shredded? Were the bodies dumped in a mass grave?
Oh I see - it's the 'those acts weren't as bad as Saddam's' mentality.
     
eklipse
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Apr 29, 2004, 07:16 PM
 
Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
Were the people killed? Shredded? Were the bodies dumped in a mass grave?
The missing people-shredder
     
Joshua
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Apr 29, 2004, 07:29 PM
 
Originally posted by lil'babykitten:
Oh I see - it's the 'those acts weren't as bad as Saddam's' mentality.
So what system of checks and balances did Saddam employ to insure his government didn't inflict civil rights abuses on the Iraq people?
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Face Ache
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Apr 29, 2004, 07:34 PM
 
Originally posted by Captain Obvious:
Why should it? I see far more evidence of widespread celebrations over the deaths of soldiers by "civilians" and I see no outrage on anyone's part over that. Hell, I see plenty of people supporting uprisings and finding justifying it with some convoluted logic. Bomb an American civilian SUV, good for them because they shouldn't be there?

So if that is the standard by which things are to be done, I say hook up all their nuts to a car battery. At worst it will sterilize the fukers so there won't be more little "freedom fighter," as you people call them, running around.


Wow!

Oh wow.

I'll let Simey reply to this.
     
SimeyTheLimey
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Apr 29, 2004, 07:44 PM
 
Originally posted by eklipse:
The missing people-shredder
How long will it be before the story will be that the mass graves didn't exist?

After all, it is imperative that Saddam be rehabilitated. He's not such a bad guy. At least he made the trains run on time. He listens to Jazz, don't you know?
     
angaq0k  (op)
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Apr 29, 2004, 07:50 PM
 
Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
How long will it be before the story will be that the mass graves didn't exist?

After all, it is imperative that Saddam be rehabilitated. He's not such a bad guy. At least he made the trains run on time. He listens to Jazz, don't you know?
And he has a firm hand shake as well, according to Rumsfeld.
"******* politics is for the ******* moment. ******** equations are for ******** Eternity." ******** Albert Einstein
     
SimeyTheLimey
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Apr 29, 2004, 07:52 PM
 
Originally posted by angaq0k:
And he has a firm hand shake as well, according to Rumsfeld.
And he kisses well too, according to Chirac.
     
angaq0k  (op)
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Apr 29, 2004, 07:54 PM
 
Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
And he kisses well too, according to Chirac.
What a great family!!
"******* politics is for the ******* moment. ******** equations are for ******** Eternity." ******** Albert Einstein
     
eklipse
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Apr 29, 2004, 08:04 PM
 
Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
How long will it be before the story will be that the mass graves didn't exist?
Oh they exist - the story will likely be about who was in them and why they were in them.
     
SimeyTheLimey
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Apr 29, 2004, 08:10 PM
 
Originally posted by eklipse:
Oh they exist - the story will likely be about who was in them and why they were in them.
Yes, the people in there must have deserved it.
     
eklipse
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Apr 29, 2004, 08:12 PM
 
Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
Yes, the people in there must have deserved it.
Just like the hundreds/thousands the US army has killed in the last couple of months.
     
SimeyTheLimey
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Apr 29, 2004, 08:16 PM
 
Originally posted by eklipse:
Just like the hundreds/thousands the US army has killed in the last couple of months.
Since you seem to have lost yours . . .

     
angaq0k  (op)
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Apr 29, 2004, 08:23 PM
 
Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
Since you seem to have lost yours . . .

Interesting.

I can't help but notice that "right" is on the left...
"******* politics is for the ******* moment. ******** equations are for ******** Eternity." ******** Albert Einstein
     
SimeyTheLimey
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Apr 29, 2004, 08:25 PM
 
Originally posted by angaq0k:
Interesting.

I can't help but notice that "right" is on the left...
Only if you have "Bad" pointing toward yourself.
     
 
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