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CBS obtains photos showing alleged abuse (Page 2)
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itai195
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Apr 29, 2004, 08:27 PM
 
Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
Only if you have "Bad" pointing toward yourself.
It gets worse for you if I have "Right" pointing at myself. I guess we need something to align our moral compass with... Sounds like a job for Zimphire!
     
eklipse
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Apr 29, 2004, 08:35 PM
 
Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
Since you seem to have lost yours . . .

You keep it - it appears to be lacking a needle.
     
angaq0k  (op)
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Apr 29, 2004, 08:51 PM
 
Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
Only if you have "Bad" pointing toward yourself.
Ah.

So you're upside down?


That can't be right...

"******* politics is for the ******* moment. ******** equations are for ******** Eternity." ******** Albert Einstein
     
DeathToWindows
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Apr 29, 2004, 09:23 PM
 
its a compass rose you idiot. there is no needle.

Don't try to outweird me, I get stranger things than you free with my breakfast cereal.
     
hyteckit
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Apr 29, 2004, 09:50 PM
 
The US can do no harm.

Good - everything the US does
Bad - everything other people do to the US

Got it.
Bush Tax Cuts == Job Killer
June 2001: 132,047,000 employed
June 2003: 129,839,000 employed
2.21 million jobs were LOST after 2 years of Bush Tax Cuts.
     
snickerdoodle
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Apr 29, 2004, 09:55 PM
 
That's right.
     
Shaddim
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Apr 29, 2004, 10:02 PM
 
Originally posted by angaq0k:
Interesting.

I can't help but notice that "right" is on the left...
Only if you look at it, not if you're standing in it.
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
- Thomas Paine
     
hyteckit
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Apr 29, 2004, 10:04 PM
 
Originally posted by angaq0k:
Interesting.

I can't help but notice that "right" is on the left...
HAHA... good catch!
Bush Tax Cuts == Job Killer
June 2001: 132,047,000 employed
June 2003: 129,839,000 employed
2.21 million jobs were LOST after 2 years of Bush Tax Cuts.
     
Jihad on Tap
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Apr 29, 2004, 10:06 PM
 
Originally posted by hyteckit:
The US can do no harm.

Good - everything the US does
Bad - everything other people do to the US

Got it.
No one said that. Leave it to a left-wing appeaser to make insane statements like yours.
     
SimeyTheLimey
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Apr 29, 2004, 10:10 PM
 
Originally posted by hyteckit:
The US can do no harm.

Good - everything the US does
Bad - everything other people do to the US

Got it.
Everyone here has agreed that what the soldiers being prosecuted did looks awful, is inexcusable, and if proven, should be punished to the full extent of the law.

The disagreement is whether this behavior:

A. Is imputed to all US servicemen and women.

B. Is imputed to all people who support US policy.

C. Absolves Saddam for torturing people on the theory that if a handful of GIs do something bad, then nobody need worry about Saddam any more.
     
Shaddim
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Apr 29, 2004, 10:16 PM
 
Originally posted by hyteckit:
The US can do no harm.

Good - everything the US does
Bad - everything other people do to the US

Got it.
We've all said those GIs did something wrong, where do you get that stupidity?
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
- Thomas Paine
     
kvm_mkdb
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Apr 29, 2004, 10:42 PM
 
Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
Everyone here has agreed that what the soldiers being prosecuted did looks awful, is inexcusable, and if proven, should be punished to the full extent of the law.

The disagreement is whether this behavior:

A. Is imputed to all US servicemen and women.

B. Is imputed to all people who support US policy.

C. Absolves Saddam for torturing people on the theory that if a handful of GIs do something bad, then nobody need worry about Saddam any more.
Just like the palestinian kid used as a human shield in the other thread or the Iraqi children 'mowed down', there are many that don't find such behavior 'inexcusable' - same with the cheers when people get killed (independently of what those people do or represent).

As for the disagreement, it's neither A, nor B, nor C.

I (as others) have serious doubts this behavior is limited to the handful that will be punished. That is not the same as saying that all service-members are like that; we all know most people, independently from creed, nationality, etc. are not capable of such atrocities unless they have been trough some 'rough events'.
As I hinted above, many in the 'US is always right' crowd chose to support even such acts, because, as their logic goes, if US soldiers do it it's righteous.
Nobody absolves Saddam or relativizes his own crimes. What I (and others) are trying to point out is that we are, more and more, behaving like him. We even went so far to re-hire Saddams henchmen from the secret police first, and from the army now (you don't seriously think he killed those 150.000+ civilians singlehandedly, don't you?)

Among those tens of thousands in Abu Ghraib many are innocents. Some are guilty of saying the wrong word in front of the wrong soldier, and that one abusive individual started the chain of events that brings to such horrors; it's the dynamic of the occupation, that we have set in motion.
( Last edited by kvm_mkdb; Apr 30, 2004 at 05:00 AM. )

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theolein
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Apr 29, 2004, 11:31 PM
 
This thread seems to be a miserable attempt at trying to make two wrongs into a right.
weird wabbit
     
Jihad on Tap
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Apr 30, 2004, 12:02 AM
 
Originally posted by theolein:
This thread seems to be a miserable attempt at trying to make two wrongs into a right.
you mean like your equivocation of terrorism + your personal vendetta against America = 'right'.



     
SimeyTheLimey
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Apr 30, 2004, 06:46 AM
 
Originally posted by theolein:
This thread seems to be a miserable attempt at trying to make two wrongs into a right.
Well put.
     
angaq0k  (op)
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Apr 30, 2004, 06:51 AM
 
photos and video

Please note that one military official (a Brigadier General) does say: "By God, It does not reflect my Army!"

That is expected and responsible, and reassuring.
"******* politics is for the ******* moment. ******** equations are for ******** Eternity." ******** Albert Einstein
     
SimeyTheLimey
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Apr 30, 2004, 07:06 AM
 
Originally posted by angaq0k:
photos and video

Please note that one military official (a Brigadier General) does say: "By God, It does not reflect my Army!"

That is expected and responsible, and reassuring.
And that the Brigadier General in charge of the prison has been suspended pending the investigation. BBC
     
Nicko
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Apr 30, 2004, 07:07 AM
 
Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
Everyone here has agreed that what the soldiers being prosecuted did looks awful, is inexcusable, and if proven, should be punished to the full extent of the law.

The disagreement is whether this behavior:

A. Is imputed to all US servicemen and women.

B. Is imputed to all people who support US policy.

C. Absolves Saddam for torturing people on the theory that if a handful of GIs do something bad, then nobody need worry about Saddam any more.

This has nothing to do with absolving anything of what saddam may have done. You can be sure that the people of iraq will not make those comparisons. Instead they will see this as just another indication of the US's true intentions. To occupy, humiliate, erode their religion and culture, and steal their oil.

Yesterday a South African contractor was killed in Iraq as he drove down a street in his SUV. Do you think the 'insurgants' bothered to ask him if he was an american before they killed him? No, they shot him because they saw him as an invader and supporting the US invasion.

But in two months when there is the so called 'hand over of sovereinty' I am sure everyone will be throwing rose petals at every soldier's feet.
     
SimeyTheLimey
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Apr 30, 2004, 07:35 AM
 
Originally posted by Nicko:
This has nothing to do with absolving anything of what saddam may have done. You can be sure that the people of iraq will not make those comparisons. Instead they will see this as just another indication of the US's true intentions. To occupy, humiliate, erode their religion and culture, and steal their oil.
I'm sure that it will be propagandized that way. The fact is it is an isolated incident and is being dealt with properly by the US military self-policing as it is supposed to do.

But it is awful that it occurred at all. I'm reassured to find out that the military isn't just arresting the sergeants directly responsible, but also investigation the command environment in which it occured -- including the flag officer commanding the jail. Sadly, there is probably not much else that the military can do. It happened. It's horrible. But it happened. These kinds of things happen in all armies. Remember the torture scandal with the Canadian Paratroopers in Somalia?Link to the Official Inquiry Report Web site summarizing, including the "trophy picture" of the 16 year old tortured and killed

This is a very similar thing. And just like Canada, the US military will deal with it.



In general, however, you make a lot of assumptions about the long term effects of an isolated incident. The attacks on westerners aren't created by this kind of mistreatment because this kind of mistreatment is so rare. You also assume that a South African wouldn't have been attacked if his killers had known that he wasn't an American. How do you know that? How do you know what his killers really want? Do they want Saddam to return, perhaps? Do they want a peaceful, democratic, pluralistic Iraq? Or do they want an Iraq where their group -- be it Ba'athist, tribal in nature, or Islamic extremist, is on top? Do you even know for sure that his killers were Iraqi? Lots of Jihadis are flocking to Iraq to kill. How do you know they weren't one of those?

I don't have access to the objective reality on the ground either. I have my own set of assumptions. But I think your assumptions are simplistic if you think that hating Americans is the only reason for the continued fighting. There is a power struggle going on, and it is as much between Iraqis as it is between Iraqis and the Coalition.

This is the missing piece of your thesis, and incidentally also why people who think that handing things over to the UN are wrong if they think that the UN wouldn't be targetted in exactly the same way. The "bad thing" that these Iraqis are fighting to destroy isn't just the occupation. I'm sure some are motivated by that. But I bet most mix this with the fear that a future Iraq that is peaceful, democratic, and pluralistic is a future Iraq with little room for them. A peaceful, democratic, pluralistic Iraq won't be friendly to either former Saddam loyalists, won't be friendly to foreign Jihadis, won't be friendly to local tribal warlords, won't be friendly to extreme theocrats. If the UN goes to Iraq to buiild a peaceful, democratic, pluralistic Iraq, it will find itself under attack as well. This isn't much of a prediction, after all. The UN left Iraq because its headquarters was bombed. Being the saintly UN and having "legitimacy" didn't spare them. Nor did simply not being American.

So it's not a matter of simple attacks on Americans. Its attacks on anyone seen as building that future Iraq which would permanently obstruct the ambitions of these groups. You have a choice. You either give in to people who do not want a peaceful, democratic, pluralistic Iraq, and just hand over the country to bands of thugs. Or you deal with the band of thugs while working toward building the peaceful, democratic, and pluralistic Iraq that will give the majority of Iraqis who are not thugs a shot at meaningful self-government that isn't just a return to tyranny.
( Last edited by SimeyTheLimey; Apr 30, 2004 at 08:02 AM. )
     
Troll
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Apr 30, 2004, 07:44 AM
 
I spent a year and some months representing victims of police torture cases in South Africa. Do you want to know how many times I had video evidence of the torture? Not once. People who commit these kinds of acts very rarely film what they're doing.

I only heard of one case ever of there having been video evidence of torture - a policemen using an attack dog to torture an immigrant. The only reason it was filmed was that the cops had become so used to torture that they didn't think there was anything wrong with it. Much like these guys. "No one gave me a copy of the Geneva Convention," as if that's an excuse (btw Simey, is this plausible?).

I would be very, very, very surprised if these 6 individuals are the only ones in Iraq that have been torturing people. I would think that if they were cocksure enough to film what they were doing, then there's probably a lot of it going on quite regularly. Besides, there is other evidence of abuse. Remember the thread talking about the prisoner that was dropped off at a hospital in a coma showing signs of electrocution? And there's an article in this weeks' Time Magazine where a resistance fighter in Najaf says he's fighting because he was tortured in a US jail.

Making an example of them is the best thing the US Army can do. I hope they get lots of time in (a properly run) jail and I hope the US government compensates these poor people.
     
SimeyTheLimey
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Apr 30, 2004, 07:56 AM
 
Originally posted by Troll:
I only heard of one case ever of there having been video evidence of torture - a policemen using an attack dog to torture an immigrant. The only reason it was filmed was that the cops had become so used to torture that they didn't think there was anything wrong with it. Much like these guys. "No one gave me a copy of the Geneva Convention," as if that's an excuse (btw Simey, is this plausible?).
The Canadian Paratroopers also photographed their victim. I just posted a link.



I don't know how common this event in Iraq is. But I don't see any reason for anyone to jump to conclusions. The fact that the military is investigating so aggressively indicates to me that they are taking it seriously. That alone indicates to me that this isn't widespread. Also, this was in a military prison. I suspect they probably felt a little more free to do as they pleace in that kind of an environment. But there I am making assumptions too.

I highly doubt that the soldiers involved didn't at least have a copy of the training manual that describes the Geneva Convention. They might not have literally had a copy of the Geneva Convention. That's not really written for laymen. It's supposed to interpreted by the member nations and instructed to the soldiers in the field. I have posted the Army Field Manual a number of times. It's quite faithful to the black letter of the Geneva Convention, but written to an 8th Grade level so everyone can understand it. I know that I received such training annually in the classroom, and as frequently as necessary in field training. I was an infantryman. These guys are military policemen. I haven't had their training, but I would expect it to be more in depth on the Geneva Convention than I got as a grunt. So I think they are full of it. They had to have known that what they were doing was wrong.

Also, by the way, these are reservists. One of the ones accused is a prison guard in civilian life right here in Virginia. I hope that isn't where he learned to abuse prisoners.
     
voyageur
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Apr 30, 2004, 08:38 AM
 
Originally posted by Face Ache:
I thought this thread would be five pages long by now.

****ing crickets chirping.

Show your outrage America. You're scaring us.
I'm very upset about this, but not all that surprised. War has a way of bringing out all that is inhumane. This kind of thing happened in the last war we fought; the one with the name that we are not allowed to mention. A few soldiers will probably take the fall, and the higher-ups, the ones responsible for training the soldiers how to treat POWs, will get a slap on the wrist.

My feeling is that we have an extra responsibility to behave in the most exemplary way possible, since we are supposedly helping Iraq set up a brand new government that is modeled on ours.

Kudos to the soldier who finally had the guts to release the photos.

Even before these photos were released, CNBC reported that 60% of Iraqis believe that the US is only doing a "fair to poor" job in Iraq. I can't imagine this will help things.
     
Troll
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Apr 30, 2004, 08:54 AM
 
Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
I highly doubt that the soldiers involved didn't at least have a copy of the training manual that describes the Geneva Convention.
Yes, these guys must have foreseen a situation where THEY might be prisoners and I'm sure they would have wanted to know what sort of treatment they could expect to receive.

I don't doubt this is an isolated incident; I just doubt it's isolated to 6 people out of 150,000. And of course, American soldiers are no more predisposed to this sort of thing than anyone else. In fact, in my experience, quite a large percentage of people are capable, under the right conditions of becoming torturers.

It seems to me that actually killing someone requires a person to overcome a natural barrier, but torturing comes relatively easily. If you shift the reference points slightly, most people seem to be capable of doing it. The fact that they're stupid enough to film themselves doing it gives you an idea of how far the reference points have shifted.
     
Judge_Fire
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Apr 30, 2004, 09:05 AM
 
Originally posted by Troll:
I would be very, very, very surprised if these 6 individuals are the only ones in Iraq that have been torturing people.
This is a tip of an iceberg, just as regular.

Military forces are a barely controllable horde of thugs and things like torture, rape, mass killings, intimidation and theft are a built-in property of deploying them. In many conflicts, these can be quite effective strategies. In this case, there's little point.

The allied forces there now are the best educated and most closely monitored group of controlled violence in history, yet still these things happen at various scales daily.

All the uncontrollable side-effects and outcomes simply show how inefficient and plain bad warriors we are. We'd be better off farming or something.

J
     
SimeyTheLimey
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Apr 30, 2004, 09:09 AM
 
Originally posted by Judge_Fire:
Military forces are a barely controllable horde of thugs
     
Face Ache
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Apr 30, 2004, 09:10 AM
 
Originally posted by Troll:
I don't doubt this is an isolated incident; I just doubt it's isolated to 6 people out of 150,000. And of course, American soldiers are no more predisposed to this sort of thing than anyone else. In fact, in my experience, quite a large percentage of people are capable, under the right conditions of becoming torturers.
IN THE EARLY 1960S, YALE PSYCHOLOGIST Stanley Milgram wanted to understand how ordinary Germans could have dispatched millions of Jews and other minorities to their deaths. So he devised an experiment to test human willingness to inflict pain on another human. Participants were told they had the role of teacher in a learning experiment. Each was paired with a learner. The learner was first read a list of word pairs. Then he was told the first word of a pair and asked to say its partner. If the learner gave the wrong word, the teacher was instructed to give him a shock. Teachers could zap learners with up to 450 volts. (The teachers did not know that the shocks were not real; the learners were faking their cries of pain.)

Psychiatrists predicted that only a tiny percentage of people would participate in another's torture. They were wrong. Although many teachers objected when learners cried out in pain, most continued. About 60 percent (25 of 40) were willing to administer severe shocks. According to Milgram, they collaborated because they wanted to please the scientist in charge, who asked them to continue, no matter what. "It is a curious thing," wrote Milgram, "that a measure of compassion on the part of the subject--an unwillingness to `hurt' the experimenter's feelings--is part of those binding forces inhibiting his disobedience."

Experimental psychology is a young science, born in the mid-nineteenth century. A persistent question has been: What kinds of traits do we possess that distinguish us from other animals?

Moral impulses--and empathy, the ability to slip into the mind of another--were thought to be some of them. We don't think of animals as moral creatures because we suspect that they lack the free will that moral agency requires. And, surely, they lack a sense of right and wrong. But Marc Hauser's article, on page 50, suggests that some animals might not be the moral midgets we have thought them to be.

Hauser, a Harvard psychologist, takes a look at experiments that tried to ascertain just what kind of mental traits are required for moral behavior among monkeys. The results are surprising. Under certain conditions monkeys can control their aggressive and sexual impulses. Sometimes they even punish cheaters. Do they have empathy? Hauser says we still can't be certain. In some experiments, they seem to treat each other better than the humans did in Milgram's experiments.

Consider Milgram's follow-up experiment. He wanted to know if humans would give severe shocks as readily if they knew the responsibility for the learner's pain rested with them, not the scientist in charge. Under those conditions, the teachers tended to give only weak shocks. Milgram's disturbing work suggests that moral capacity is something of a hothouse flower, blooming best under conditions of personal responsibility that are increasingly rare in complex, modern society.
     
Troll
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Apr 30, 2004, 09:24 AM
 
Originally posted by Face Ache:
Very interesting post. I certainly agree with the conclusion there. I'm not sure if the teachers in the experiments could see each other while they were admistering the shocks, but I would think that would influence the outcome too.
     
villalobos
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Apr 30, 2004, 09:35 AM
 
Originally posted by angaq0k:
CBS: Six MPs face court-martial for treatment of Iraqi prisoners

Of course, this explains nothing about Fallujah.

Of course not.
Kinda scary to think that the strongest military in the world is also the dumbest.

villa
     
SimeyTheLimey
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Apr 30, 2004, 09:40 AM
 
Originally posted by villalobos:
Kinda scary to think that the strongest military in the world is also the dumbest.

villa
Evidence for this hyperbole?

Hint: to take one example, if you think this is bad, take a look at what has been going on for years in Chechnyr. But nobody cares about that, or makes stupid sweeping comments about Russian soldiers.
     
Face Ache
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Apr 30, 2004, 09:48 AM
 
Originally posted by Troll:
Very interesting post. I certainly agree with the conclusion there. I'm not sure if the teachers in the experiments could see each other while they were admistering the shocks, but I would think that would influence the outcome too.
They tried both. When in the room the "teachers" would actually hold the hand of the "learner" down on an "electric" (luckily fake) pad.

And they did it, to the amazement of the researchers.
     
voodoo
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Apr 30, 2004, 09:55 AM
 
Originally posted by Face Ache:
They tried both. When in the room the "teachers" would actually hold the hand of the "learner" down on an "electric" (luckily fake) pad.

And they did it, to the amazement of the researchers.
Yes that was one dramatic psychological research! After reading it I remember I lost a little faith in humanity forever.
I could take Sean Connery in a fight... I could definitely take him.
     
villalobos
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Apr 30, 2004, 10:02 AM
 
Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
Evidence for this hyperbole?

Hint: to take one example, if you think this is bad, take a look at what has been going on for years in Chechnyr. But nobody cares about that, or makes stupid sweeping comments about Russian soldiers.
Kinda scary to think that the strongest military in the world is also one of the dumbest.

here we go. Fixed. The other thing : the russian army in Chechnya never pretended 'liberating' that area.

villa
     
SimeyTheLimey
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Apr 30, 2004, 10:06 AM
 
Originally posted by villalobos:
Kinda scary to think that the strongest military in the world is also one of the dumbest.
You still don't have any evidence whatsoever. Just a dumb preconception about something you know nothing about.
     
villalobos
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Apr 30, 2004, 10:11 AM
 
Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
You still don't have any evidence whatsoever. Just a dumb preconception about something you know nothing about.
Just like 99.9% of anything written in this 'political' board. I fit well I guess.

Villa
     
SimeyTheLimey
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Apr 30, 2004, 10:12 AM
 
Originally posted by villalobos:
Just like 99.9% of anything written in this 'political' board. I fit well I guess.

Villa
Sorry, I should be more specific. Yours was a dumb bigoted preconception. That kind of thing is uncalled for.
     
villalobos
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Apr 30, 2004, 10:15 AM
 
Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
Sorry, I should be more specific. Yours was a dumb bigoted preconception. That kind of thing is uncalled for.
oooooook. Whatever.

villa

Edit My bad by the way, I forgot it was uncalled for to criticize the US military, as well as unpatriotic. Won't do it no more.
     
Sherwin
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Apr 30, 2004, 10:17 AM
 
Question:

Criminal A and criminal B are working together and are going to kill your family. You capture criminal A and know for sure that he knows information which could lead you to criminal B before your family gets hit.

Do you:

1) Ask him nicely for the information you need and continue to ask nicely when he refuses to give you the info needed to capture criminal B?

2) Wire his balls up to the mains and prod him with a hot poker until he gives you the information you need to capture criminal B?


?
     
Face Ache
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Apr 30, 2004, 10:22 AM
 
The fact that allied troops like to avoid the Americans should suggest something.

Hmm. The Americans have just handed Fallujah over to the Republican Guard.

Link.

"We have now begun forming a new emergency military force," he said, saying the people of Falluja "rejected" U.S. troops.
The Marine officer said that if those who had been fighting in Falluja joined Saleh's force that would not be a problem for the U.S. forces: "It's not a bad thing because they're not on the wrong side," he told Reuters near Falluja.
They were terrorists at lunchtime.

Mahmoud Othman, a Kurd on the U.S.-appointed Governing Council, said it was worthwhile to end fighting. But he added: "It's not a good precedent...As usual, the Americans, without consulting anyone at all, have gone ahead with a policy to replace an earlier, failed policy...I'm not crazy about coming back to make a deal with someone from the Republican Guard."
The battle for hearts and minds is officially over. The Americans lost.
     
Nicko
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Apr 30, 2004, 10:23 AM
 
Originally posted by villalobos:
oooooook. Whatever.

villa

Edit My bad by the way, I forgot it was uncalled for to criticize the US military, as well as unpatriotic. Won't do it no more.

You must be a terrorist.
     
SimeyTheLimey
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Apr 30, 2004, 10:23 AM
 
Originally posted by Sherwin:
Question:

Criminal A and criminal B are working together and are going to kill your family. You capture criminal A and know for sure that he knows information which could lead you to criminal B before your family gets hit.

Do you:

1) Ask him nicely for the information you need and continue to ask nicely when he refuses to give you the info needed to capture criminal B?

2) Wire his balls up to the mains and prod him with a hot poker until he gives you the information you need to capture criminal B?


?
The ticking timebomb exception is a possible defense but is there any evidence that it applies here? I don't see it. Those pictures look more like they were doing this for sport. It would take a little time to get people to pose for a video camera in humiliating positions. If you have that much time, then the timebomb can't be ticking all that much.

Plus, this was in a prison. It wasn't out in the field under fire. These people had been in captivity for a while. If they needed to be interrogated for information, then there are legal ways to do it. Sexual humiliation and physical torture isn't one of them.

No. I don't think there is any excuse here -- though I suppose we should wait for the verdict.
     
Nicko
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Apr 30, 2004, 10:25 AM
 
Originally posted by Face Ache:

The battle for hearts and minds is officially over. The Americans lost.
Lost? I'm not sure they knew what they were fighting for in the first place.
     
SimeyTheLimey
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Apr 30, 2004, 10:25 AM
 
Originally posted by villalobos:

Edit My bad by the way, I forgot it was uncalled for to criticize the US military, as well as unpatriotic. Won't do it no more.
Yes, it is uncalled for to make sweeping bigoted comments about the entire US military. It doesn't make you look smart to denegrate others.
     
villalobos
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Apr 30, 2004, 10:31 AM
 
Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
Yes, it is uncalled for to make sweeping bigoted comments about the entire US military. It doesn't make you look smart to denegrate others.
All right, listen I am afraid you take my comments a little too seriously. So, let's drop it right here and move on more serious and enlightened discussion.

Peace.

villa
     
SimeyTheLimey
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Apr 30, 2004, 10:34 AM
 
Originally posted by villalobos:
All right, listen I am afraid you take my comments a little too seriously. So, let's drop it right here and move on more serious and enlightened discussion.

Peace.

villa
Yes, i do take comments that on their face evidence bigotry seriously.

You can walk away with the taint in the air, or you can withdraw the comments like an adult responsible for what he says. But don't think it will be ignored.
     
Sherwin
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Apr 30, 2004, 10:39 AM
 
Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
If they needed to be interrogated for information, then there are legal ways to do it. Sexual humiliation and physical torture isn't one of them.
So what are the legal ways?
And how effective are they?

I seem to remember that one of the guys responsible for doing this was bragging that "we broke them within a few hours". This would seem to indicate that the actions taken were required to extract information out of the subjects.

You can't just ask hardened subjects for information - you have to force it out of them any way you can.
     
SimeyTheLimey
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Apr 30, 2004, 10:49 AM
 
Originally posted by Sherwin:
So what are the legal ways?
And how effective are they?

I seem to remember that one of the guys responsible for doing this was bragging that "we broke them within a few hours". This would seem to indicate that the actions taken were required to extract information out of the subjects.

You can't just ask hardened subjects for information - you have to force it out of them any way you can.
It's not these military police sergeants place to "break" anyone. They are only supposed to do their job, which is to hold the prisoners in humane conditions according to international law. That's not just their job, that's their duty. The Geneva Convention isn't just a treaty, it's incorporated into binding regulations that these "soldiers" swore to uphold and obey.

If anyone needed to be questioned, then that questioning should have been done by trained professionals who know what they can and cannot legally and humanely do. There is no excuse for this barbarism.
     
Altix
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Apr 30, 2004, 10:56 AM
 
I love this quote from the BBC:

"We had no support, no training. I kept asking my chain of command for certain things... like rules and regulations
Staff Sergeant Chip Frederick
One of the suspended soldiers"

So I guess the chain of morality in one's brain is a little fried. Sad thing is, more abuse like this goes on which doesn't reach the media.

So much for the US showing the Iraqis morality, and how to treat their fellow human beings, the same charge they threw at Saddam's regime, but sadly the US is showing us that they are no better in this regard.
"Empty your mind. Be formless, shapeless, like tea. Now you put tea into a cup, it becomes the cup. You put tea into a bottle, it becomes the bottle, you put it in a teapot, it becomes the teapot. Now tea can flow, or it can crash... Be tea my Friend..." -Bruce Lee and Erilaz
     
SimeyTheLimey
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Apr 30, 2004, 10:58 AM
 
Originally posted by Altix:
So much for the US showing the Iraqis morality, and how to treat their fellow human beings, the same charge they threw at Saddam's regime, but sadly the US is showing us that they are no better in this regard.
What is it with you people that you can't differentiate between individuals and a group, and isolated incidents and brutal terror? Do you really think in such black and white terms?

I posted this earlier in the thread. I was told later that it was none of the above. Well, apparently for at least a few of you, I was right. Options A and C seem to be quite popular.

[quote]
Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
Everyone here has agreed that what the soldiers being prosecuted did looks awful, is inexcusable, and if proven, should be punished to the full extent of the law.

The disagreement is whether this behavior:

A. Is imputed to all US servicemen and women.

B. Is imputed to all people who support US policy.

C. Absolves Saddam for torturing people on the theory that if a handful of GIs do something bad, then nobody need worry about Saddam any more.
     
Altix
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Apr 30, 2004, 11:01 AM
 
Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
What is it with you people that you can't differentiate between individuals and a group, and isolated incidents and brutal terror? Do you really think in such black and white terms?
Do you really think that this is just an isolated instance? Can't you see why a nation that has been invaded, and the citizens then rise up to fight the occupiers have every right to do so? At what point would you like to differntiate betwee ngroups, and individuals? Wouldn't you say that the US army being in Iraq, bombing it, is a group action?
"Empty your mind. Be formless, shapeless, like tea. Now you put tea into a cup, it becomes the cup. You put tea into a bottle, it becomes the bottle, you put it in a teapot, it becomes the teapot. Now tea can flow, or it can crash... Be tea my Friend..." -Bruce Lee and Erilaz
     
itai195
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Apr 30, 2004, 11:01 AM
 
Originally posted by Altix:
So much for the US showing the Iraqis morality, and how to treat their fellow human beings, the same charge they threw at Saddam's regime, but sadly the US is showing us that they are no better in this regard.
The US' place is not to teach morality, it's to show that these criminals receive a just punishment, unlike what the previous regime would have done.

I know many people here are against the war and all that, but I think some are crossing the line here. What these soldiers did was awful, and I'm relieved that they are being prosecuted for their crimes. Within any group of 150,000 individuals there are bound to be some bad apples.
     
 
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