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CBS obtains photos showing alleged abuse (Page 3)
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Originally posted by itai195:
The US' place is not to teach morality, it's to show that these criminals receive a just punishment, unlike what the previous regime would have done.
I know many people here are against the war and all that, but I think some are crossing the line here. What these soldiers did was awful, and I'm relieved that they are being prosecuted for their crimes. Within any group of 150,000 individuals there are bound to be some bad apples.
So you don't think that the US being there is morally unjust in the first place? I do, so any action being taken by Iraqis to rid themselves of the occupiers, is just in my mind. So instances of US abuse to Iraqis, is just another offspring of the main crime of invading the nation.
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Originally posted by Altix:
So you don't think that the US being there is morally unjust in the first place? I do, so any action being taken by Iraqis to rid themselves of the occupiers, is just in my mind. So instances of US abuse to Iraqis, is just another offspring of the main crime of invading the nation.
No, I think 'morally' the war is justified. That doesn't mean the political reasons for war were justified, or that I believe we should have gone to war.
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Originally posted by itai195:
No, I think 'morally' the war is justified. That doesn't mean the political reasons for war were justified, or that I believe we should have gone to war.
Ok, I can accept that. I disagree, but that's ok.
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"Empty your mind. Be formless, shapeless, like tea. Now you put tea into a cup, it becomes the cup. You put tea into a bottle, it becomes the bottle, you put it in a teapot, it becomes the teapot. Now tea can flow, or it can crash... Be tea my Friend..." -Bruce Lee and Erilaz
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Actually, reviewing what Simey said earlier, about hte difference between group, and individual attrocities, I think the difference is clear. What these US soldiers have done, in the context of occupier, and the the occupied, is that the hammer of judgement will come down heavier on the US, and the outcry form all quarters of he international community, which is what is happening now. that tells you something.
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"Empty your mind. Be formless, shapeless, like tea. Now you put tea into a cup, it becomes the cup. You put tea into a bottle, it becomes the bottle, you put it in a teapot, it becomes the teapot. Now tea can flow, or it can crash... Be tea my Friend..." -Bruce Lee and Erilaz
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Originally posted by Altix:
Actually, reviewing what Simey said earlier, about hte difference between group, and individual attrocities, I think the difference is clear. What these US soldiers have done, in the context of occupier, and the the occupied, is that the hammer of judgement will come down heavier on the US, and the outcry form all quarters of he international community, which is what is happening now. that tells you something.
I think the "hammer of judgement" in "[t]he international community" made up its mind long before this isolated incident. And mostly long before this war. No doubt it will give a few cover to vent their spleen. The fact that they are being unreasonable and undifferentiating won't alter their minds.
But, we've been ignoring that kind of thing for a while now. A few more editorials in the Independent won't affect anything important. Just because the hammer of judgment thinks it is right, doesn't make it right. Nor does it make much difference when the "hammer of judgement" has no intention of trying to help the situation and is only rooting for disaster so it can say "I told you so" and "please don't hit me, hit them."
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Originally posted by Altix:
Actually, reviewing what Simey said earlier, about hte difference between group, and individual attrocities, I think the difference is clear. What these US soldiers have done, in the context of occupier, and the the occupied, is that the hammer of judgement will come down heavier on the US, and the outcry form all quarters of he international community, which is what is happening now. that tells you something.
No doubt. Consider that these photos are probably being broadcast 24/7 on all arab networks .... the wider consequences are incalculable.
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Originally posted by Nicko:
No doubt. Consider that these photos are probably being broadcast 24/7 on all arab networks .... the wider consequences are incalculable.
Which is part of my point to Sherwin.
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Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
I think the "hammer of judgement" in "[t]he international community" made up its mind long before this isolated incident. No doubt it will give a few cover to vent their spleen.
But, we've been ignoring that kind of thing for a while now. A few more editorials in the Independent won't affect anything important. Just because the hammer of judgment thinks it is right, doesn't make it right.
It goes a long way to furthering, and cementing the opinions of the public. Judging the modd outside the US, it can be fairly assertained that the US losing, or has lsot a long time ago the war on public opinion; now that is coming home to them, and the US' public opinion, and that is now sliding.
it's ok for the war apologists to point out individual cases like this today, but people aren't so blind as to not see these events just piling up on top of each other, wave after wave. The siege of Falluja, the use of indiscriminate bombs on Iraai civilan areas, the invaion itself, etc. They add up in the mind of the individual, and it's that which lingers in the mind.
You're right in a few things, nothing is black and white, I wish those who espouse that view would also apply it to those Iraqis who are attacking the coalition troops just now, and their use of violence.
The problem being, at which end of the grey spectrum does one believe in.
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"Empty your mind. Be formless, shapeless, like tea. Now you put tea into a cup, it becomes the cup. You put tea into a bottle, it becomes the bottle, you put it in a teapot, it becomes the teapot. Now tea can flow, or it can crash... Be tea my Friend..." -Bruce Lee and Erilaz
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Originally posted by Altix:
It goes a long way to furthering, and cementing the opinions of the public. Judging the modd outside the US, it can be fairly assertained that the US losing, or has lsot a long time ago the war on public opinion; now that is coming home to them, and the US' public opinion, and that is now sliding.
it's ok for the war apologists to point out individual cases like this today, but people aren't so blind as to not see these events just piling up on top of each other, wave after wave. The siege of Falluja, the use of indiscriminate bombs on Iraai civilan areas, the invaion itself, etc. They add up in the mind of the individual, and it's that which lingers in the mind.
You're right in a few things, nothing is black and white, I wish those who espouse that view would also apply it to those Iraqis who are attacking the coalition troops just now, and their use of violence.
The problem being, at which end of the grey spectrum does one believe in.
The problem is that the US is only popular when it is being attacked (as in 9/11) and when it does nothing to respond. The minute the US started responding to being attacked, the "slide" as you call it began. This isn't just about Iraq. It started after Afghanistan. And it has roots before that during the Cold War.
We obviously are aware that a good chunk of opinion, especially in Western Europe, favors a policy of appeasement, withdrawal, maintenance of the status quo, pretending that terrorism has no state aspect, treating it as nothing but a law enforcement issue, and generally, that the problem will just go away and stop bothering you whether or not Americans continue to be attacked. None of those policies are acceptable here. And we don't give much of a damn what you think because we know that you don't have our interests at heart. Frankly, we also know that a lot of you never much liked us anyway.
We are going to do what we need to do regardless of that opinion. The price of being popular isn't worth it. You aren't offering any help, and so we lose nothing by ignoring you.
We'll have time to be popular later. Right now we have a war to win.
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Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
The problem is that the US is only popular when it is being attacked (as in 9/11) and when it does nothing to respond. The minute the US started responding to being attacked, the "slide" as you call it began. This isn't just about Iraq. It started after Afghanistan. And it has roots before that during the Cold War.
We obviously are aware that a good chunk of opinion, especially in Western Europe, favors a policy of appeasement, withdrawal, maintenance of the status quo, pretending that terrorism has no state aspect, treating it as nothing but a law enforcement issue, and generally, that the problem will just go away and stop bothering you whether or not Americans continue to be attacked. None of those policies are acceptable here. And we don't give much of a damn what you think because we know that you don't have our interests at heart. Frankly, we also know that a lot of you never much liked us anyway.
We are going to do what we need to do regardless of that opinion. The price of being popular isn't worth it. You aren't offering any help, and so we lose nothing by ignoring you.
We'll have time to be popular later. Right now we have a war to win.
Here we go again, linking 9/11 and Iraq. You know better than Simey. You really do. I don't think anybody criticized when the US went into Afghanistan to get rid of the Taliban and the Al Qaida training camps. The misleading propaganda does not help your cause trust me.
villa
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Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
The problem is that the US is only popular when it is being attacked (as in 9/11) and when it does nothing to respond. The minute the US started responding to being attacked, the "slide" as you call it began. It started after Afghanistan.
We obviously are aware that a good chunk of opinion, especially in Western Europe, favors a policy of appeasement, withdrawal, maintenance of the status quo, pretending that terrorism has no state aspect, treating it as nothing but a law enforcement issue, and generally, that the problem will just go away and stop bothering you whether or not Americans continue to be attacked. None of those policies are acceptable here. And we don't give much of a damn what you think because we know that you don't have our interests at heart.
We are going to do what we need to do regardless of that opinion. The price of being popular isn't worth it. You aren't offering any help, and so we lose nothing by ignoring you.
We'll have time to be popular later. Right now we have a war to win.
Ah the true colours are finally revealed.
See the only problem with your world view is that not only does it not work, it actually perpetuates the very problem you are trying to solve. Invade, destroy, and kill people (oh I mean terrorists, insurgants ect...) and you only make them hate you more. Bombard their cities, destory their economy, plunge them into ever deeper poverty and all they will be left with is desparation.
Meanwhile.... latest in Iraq is that the oh so great US army is installing former Saddam generals to deal with the 'insurgants' ....maintaining the status quo indeed!
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Originally posted by villalobos:
Here we go again, linking 9/11 and Iraq. You know better than Simey. You really do. I don't think anybody criticized when the US went into Afghanistan to get rid of the Taliban and the Al Qaida training camps. The misleading propaganda does not help your cause trust me.
villa
Oh sorry, i should have added this to the list. A good chunk of foreign opinion doesn't get the bredth of the war on terror.
We'll ignore that opinion too.
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Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
Oh sorry, i should have added this to the list. A good chunk of foreign opinion don't get the bredth of the war on terror.
We'll ignore that opinion too.
Yeah I guess I forgot that you know so much more then us mere mortals. LOL
villa
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Originally posted by villalobos:
Yeah I guess I forgot that you know so much more then us mere mortals. LOL
villa
No, just disagree with you rather profoundly. And I see no particular reason why I or my country should defer to people who basically wish us ill.
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Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
Oh sorry, i should have added this to the list. A good chunk of foreign opinion doesn't get the bredth of the war on terror.
We'll ignore that opinion too.
So would you say that going to Afghanistan was 'doing nothing'? If not why do you think the 'slide' came after Afghanistan? Acoording to your logic, it should have started right away. Seems like some contradiction here, don't you think?
villa
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Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
No, just disagree with you rather profoundly. And I see no particular reason why I or my country should defer to people who basically wish us ill.
One question:
How many people (American or not) have to die before the policies of your government are considered wrong?
For convenience you may round up to the nearest thousand.
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Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
No, just disagree with you rather profoundly. And I see no particular reason why I or my country should defer to people who basically wish us ill.
Once again, you know NOTHING about me. Just a few irrelevent comments I make on a computer political board. Way to judge people Simey. I guess it is in line with how you judge the world.
villa
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Originally posted by villalobos:
So would you say that going to Afghanistan was 'doing nothing'? If not why do you think the 'slide' came after Afghanistan? Acoording to your logic, it should have started right away. Seems like some contradiction here, don't you think?
villa
It did start right away.
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And look, I found some classic ones!:
PB.
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Aut Caesar aut nihil.
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Well, I didn't have time to read every post so please excuse me if I'm being repetitive:
This is an absolute, utter, abject f#cking disgrace. That I'm paying the salaries of people who are carrying out quasi-sexual-sadistic behavior and posing with cheesy smiles and "thumbs-up" signs makes me want to vomit. The fact that this is just now coming out a year after it happened makes me worry that it could have been happening dozens or hundreds of other times since then. I hope that's not the case and that this is just an isolated incident. It is far beneath the code of conduct of a professional army that is supposedly carrying out the will of a democratic society that maintains it.
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Originally posted by Nicko:
One question:
How many people (American or not) have to die before the policies of your government are considered wrong?
For convenience you may round up to the nearest thousand.
Ah, the old "when did you stop beating your wife" question.
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Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
It did start right away.
From the countries which do not support the US maybe, but not from the perennial allies. Besides, you said the exact opposite in your post.
villa
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Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
Ah, the old "when did you stop beating your wife" question.
Intersting answer. Can't say I'm surprized.
Have a good weekend everyone I'm outa here.
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Originally posted by villalobos:
I don't think anybody criticized when the US went into Afghanistan to get rid of the Taliban and the Al Qaida training camps.
People became critical when civilians were cluster bombed IIRC.
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Originally posted by Face Ache:
People became critical when civilians were cluster bombed IIRC.
Yeah well, but the 'big scheme' was still 'worth the prize' I guess.
villa
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Originally posted by Face Ache:
People became critical when civilians were cluster bombed IIRC.
that happens in war. Maybe the "civilians" over there should have taken care of the terrorists in their society to keep this from happening?
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Originally posted by villalobos:
From the countries which do not support the US maybe, but not from the perennial allies. Besides, you said the exact opposite in your post.
villa
Where did I say "the exact opposite"?
What, do you want me to put an exact date on when people started getting brave enough after 9/11 to say that basically, they thought we had it coming? I can't do that. But it certainly began very soon and increased as soon as it became obvious that the war on terror wasn't just rhetoric. Remember all that hyperventilating about how the US was going to do indiscriminate carpet bombing in Afghanistan. How there woud be floods of refugees, and a wave or terror in response? It has been a constant refrain. Sure, it gathered steam over Iraq. But it did not begin then. It's more that Iraq exposed something that was already there.
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Originally posted by MacNStein:
that happens in war. Maybe the "civilians" over there should have taken care of the terrorists in their society to keep this from happening?
Hey I just report the news.
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Originally posted by Nicko:
One question:
How many people (American or not) have to die before the policies of your government are considered wrong?
For convenience you may round up to the nearest thousand.
How many innocent civillians do terrorists have to kill before you people open up your eyes and realize we a dealing with pure evil. How many 'death' celebrations do we have to endure before Muslims and ME nations say 'ENOUGH'?
We didn't fly planes into the world trade center.
We dont tell brainwashed kids that if they strap a bomb to their back and kill a westerner, they will go to heaven and recieve a bunch of virgins (Hmm...sex driven suicide).
Our policies are in the interest of the world. If it weren't for the US, countries like France and Italy would be the terrorist's bitch, bending over and taking it for the well being of the International community.
We don't negotiate with killers. That is out policy. We fart like men and refuse to let any evil entity, whether they act in the name of Allah or not, to stick anything up our arse.
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Last edited by dcolton; Apr 30, 2004 at 12:12 PM.
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Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
The problem is that the US is only popular when it is being attacked (as in 9/11) and when it does nothing to respond. The minute the US started responding to being attacked, the "slide" as you call it began. This isn't just about Iraq. It started after Afghanistan.
Exactly, it started after Afghanistan. Afghanistan was seen as a legitimate response to 9/11. The "slide" started when the US started behaving in the same way its attackers behave. The slide started when the US started making people that had nothing to do with 9/11 pay for it.
People all over the world are pretty similar to the people in the US. They have similar desires and likes and dislikes. They aren't sitting at home plotting doom and disaster for the US. They're mostly minding their own business trying to get by. They aren't spending their days deciding who they're going to hate. But they aren't stupid either and when they see one country acting arrogantly, committing ghastly acts of murder, when they see a country lying to them to attempt to cover up a war machine that has been set in motion, then they start to think (because they do think even in the third world) and they start to object. People outside the US were a lot more clued up on the difference between Afghanistan and Iraq.
Those who closer were to the sharp edge of the decision to invade Iraq tend to hate more (and sometimes do things that none of us can justify) than those who protested in major cities all over the world. But the US earns the hatred through its actions. It isn't just a victim of prejudice.
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Last edited by Troll; Apr 30, 2004 at 12:17 PM.
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Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
Where did I say "the exact opposite"?
Quoting you
'This isn't just about Iraq. It started after Afghanistan. And it has roots before that during the Cold War. '
Although I realize now I probably misunderstood what you meant here.
Anyhow, I think Iraq was a completely different story from Afghanistan. For instance, the Spaniards want to increase their presence in Afghanistan, although so many people say they are bowing to the terrorists.
You do not want to admit it, but Bush made a huge blunder by going to Iraq. And desperatly trying to link it to terrorism to cover the WMD's fiasco will do nothing to help.
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Originally posted by dcolton:
Our policies are in the interest of the world. If it weren't for the US, countries like France and Italy would be the terrorist's bitch, bending over and taking it for the well being of the International community.
See Limey what I meant with offending comments on a daily basis?
villa
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Originally posted by villalobos:
See Limey what I meant with offending comments on a daily basis?
villa
Then criticize him. The other day I had mr natural calling me an "A Hole" and a hypocrite. Not one left of center poster criticized him. Their perogative. But don't expect me to police other posters unless you are willing to play chief whip yourself.
In any case, we aren't organized into teams here. You are responsible for what you post, I'm responsible for what I post. And others are responsible for their own posts. Unless you are a mod, that's how it works.
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Originally posted by villalobos:
See Limey what I meant with offending comments on a daily basis?
villa
When did we elect dcolton as our foreign policy representative? His comments are no more significant than any other American's.
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Originally posted by Krusty:
Well, I didn't have time to read every post so please excuse me if I'm being repetitive:
This is an absolute, utter, abject f#cking disgrace. That I'm paying the salaries of people who are carrying out quasi-sexual-sadistic behavior and posing with cheesy smiles and "thumbs-up" signs makes me want to vomit. The fact that this is just now coming out a year after it happened makes me worry that it could have been happening dozens or hundreds of other times since then. I hope that's not the case and that this is just an isolated incident. It is far beneath the code of conduct of a professional army that is supposedly carrying out the will of a democratic society that maintains it.
I don't know how folks are claiming this is 'an isolated incident', when there is a thread right here about the same exact thing in Afghanistan.
I guess you're right, it's isolated to places where american troops are in charge of POW.
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Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
Where did I say "the exact opposite"?
What, do you want me to put an exact date on when people started getting brave enough after 9/11 to say that basically, they thought we had it coming? I can't do that. But it certainly began very soon and increased as soon as it became obvious that the war on terror wasn't just rhetoric. Remember all that hyperventilating about how the US was going to do indiscriminate carpet bombing in Afghanistan. How there woud be floods of refugees, and a wave or terror in response? It has been a constant refrain. Sure, it gathered steam over Iraq. But it did not begin then. It's more that Iraq exposed something that was already there.
I would add that anytime something goes wrong in Afghanistan, the US receives all the blame and condemnation on here. We're blamed for not finding OBL, for supposedly letting Taliban regroup, for ignoring Afghanistan (despite the presence of allied forces..), etc.
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UPDATE:
LONDON (Reuters) - U.S. Marines will remain in the volatile Iraqi city of Falluja and former members of the Iraqi military will work alongside them under U.S. command, Brigadier General Mark Kimmitt told Sky News on Friday.
"Any suggestions we're handing over responsibility or withdrawing is patently false," he said.
Kimmitt said the United States had received an offer from former members of Saddam Hussein's military to help restore order in Falluja after weeks of fierce fighting.
So now the US is working WITH the Republican Guard to repress those pesky Iraqis!
Any terrorists who briefly became allies after lunch should now revert to terrorism.
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Originally posted by itai195:
When did we elect dcolton as our foreign policy representative? His comments are no more significant than any other American's.
I wish Simey would understand your point of view.
villa
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Senior User
Join Date: Oct 2003
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Simey:
Everyone here has agreed that what the soldiers being prosecuted did looks awful, is inexcusable, and if proven, should be punished to the full extent of the law.
How did the US army punish Iraqi resistants when the militia�s bodies were found awfully mutilated ?
Who did they punish?
They replied with violence, attacking Fallujah., not making the distinction between a group and individual actions.
And Iraqis should examine this ^ horror as a spare case, an exceptional happening? When Us answered Fallujah slaughter by sending missiles, and their sanctions killed innocents.
It�s not consistent�.
Simey:
The disagreement is whether this behavior:
A. Is imputed to all US servicemen and women.
B. Is imputed to all people who support US policy.
C. Absolves Saddam for torturing people on the theory that if a handful of GIs do something bad, then nobody need worry about Saddam any more.
Change the US word with Iraq, and the US did not reason with that optic you are pleading when the situation is the other way around.
that happens in war. Maybe the "civilians" over there should have taken care of the terrorists in their society to keep this from happening?
and the guys inflicting these humiliations are not terrorists?
Were are they from already? China?
Dcolton
.... I dont negotiate with killers....
So you should not be negotiating for nor with these executioners, else I may label you terrorist.
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Posting Junkie
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Alexandria, VA
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Originally posted by swrate:
Simey:
How did the US army punish Iraqi resistants when the militia�s bodies were found awfully mutilated ?
Who did they punish?
They replied with violence, attacking Fallujah., not making the distinction between a group and individual actions.
And Iraqis should examine this ^ horror as a spare case, an exceptional happening? When Us answered Fallujah slaughter by sending missiles, and their sanctions killed innocents.
It�s not consistent�.
Simey:
What are you talking about? The US Army is responsible for prosecuting its own soldiers if they commit war crimes. That has nothing to do with the conduct of combat operations. Combat isn't primarily about each side policing the other.
Technically, the insurgents -- if they were operating within international law -- would be responsible for prosecuting their own war criminals. That's how it is supposed to work. But in practice, it's usually the case that guerillas don't abide by such niceties while the organized armies (at least from countries like the US) do.
This is why the people who mutilated the civilian contractors are probably all still alive and free, while the US soldiers who committed these atrocities are under arrest and facing prosecution.
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Last edited by SimeyTheLimey; Apr 30, 2004 at 12:46 PM.
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Banned
Join Date: Sep 2003
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Originally posted by villalobos:
See Limey what I meant with offending comments on a daily basis?
villa
Glad I could help
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Banned
Join Date: Sep 2003
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Originally posted by itai195:
When did we elect dcolton as our foreign policy representative? His comments are no more significant than any other American's.
Exactly.
But it goes both ways...eh?
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Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: europe
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Originally posted by kvm_mkdb:
But we are soooo much better than Saddam...
This can't have happened. You Americans are righteous people.
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Nasrudin sat on a river bank when someone shouted to him from the opposite side: "Hey! how do I get across?" "You are across!" Nasrudin shouted back.
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Mac Elite
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Safe House
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Reply to all the apologists and cry babies. this is not meant to conndone the actions a of a few but there will be bad apples in the bunch, especailly in war.
Word: **** with us ( read 9/11 ) and we're going to **** you up. No apologies to sympathizers including their women and children. This boils down to the security of my family. Cold hard reality. Read it an weep.
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Banned
Join Date: Apr 2004
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Originally posted by villalobos:
Quoting you
'This isn't just about Iraq. It started after Afghanistan. And it has roots before that during the Cold War. '
Although I realize now I probably misunderstood what you meant here.
Anyhow, I think Iraq was a completely different story from Afghanistan. For instance, the Spaniards want to increase their presence in Afghanistan, although so many people say they are bowing to the terrorists.
You do not want to admit it, but Bush made a huge blunder by going to Iraq. And desperatly trying to link it to terrorism to cover the WMD's fiasco will do nothing to help.
Who cares? We are the United States and if we feel someone is a threat to our national security we're going to take them out.
Get used to it.
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Professional Poster
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Herzliya
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Originally posted by Orion27:
Word: **** with us ( read 9/11 ) and we're going to **** you up. No apologies to sympathizers including their women and children. This boils down to the security of my family. Cold hard reality. Read it an weep.
What did the Iraqis have to do with 9/11?
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Banned
Join Date: Apr 2004
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What didn't they do to have with it?
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Posting Junkie
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Washington, DC
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While the nude acts and box are purely deplorable and un-American (and I hope they lock those F@#$ers up for a while),
bags over the heads of combatants is 100% acceptable IMHO! It immobilizes them and does not permit them to coordinate an attack/insurgence. It also doesn't permit them to see how many guards are guarding them or where they are.
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Mac Elite
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Chicago, IL USA
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Well, if nothing else, this thread shows one big difference between Americans and Saddam: when an American in Iraq commits a human rights abuse, the rest of the world actually gives a ****.
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Safe in the womb of an everlasting night
You find the darkness can give the brightest light.
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Mac Elite
Join Date: Apr 2000
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Originally posted by Joshua:
Well, if nothing else, this thread shows one big difference between Americans and Saddam: when an American in Iraq commits a human rights abuse, the rest of the world actually gives a ****.
Is that because Saddam never went around the world clamoring that freedom, tolerance and so on were the intrisic values of his governemnt and country, clamoring how white and pure and disingenuous he was and how dark and evil and immoral the ennemy was? Would that be possible that the rest of the world detect a hint of the shadow of some hypocritism in the behavior of the 'liberators' of Iraq, who by the way cannot remember for the sake of themselves why they actually went to Iraq in the first place? Yeah, maybe.
It also shows also that this generation is not even closely worthy of the Great Generation. To plagiarize an eloquent figure of this board, this is when the slide started.
villa
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