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CBS obtains photos showing alleged abuse (Page 5)
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Originally posted by Joshua:
And the unblurred photos look like screengrabs from a cheesy porno.
Yup. Changed the pics, my point stands.
And about the moral credibility: at its lowest since March 2003.
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Last edited by kvm_mkdb; May 1, 2004 at 01:23 AM.
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September last year:
The visit was part of Rumsfeld's third day of a tour of Iraq to see results of the invasion he helped direct from the Pentagon (news - web sites). The defense secretary also has met with American military commanders and troops as well as L. Paul Bremer, head of the U.S.led civilian administration in Iraq. Later Saturday, Rumsfeld toured the cinderblock death house at the notorious Abu Ghuraib prison outside Baghdad. He stood in the stifling concrete room where condemned prisoners went to their deaths.
Brig. Gen. Janis Karpinski, commander of the U.S. Army military police brigade now in charge of the prison, demonstrated how prisoners were hung from ropes tied to metal bars in the ceiling. She pushed a lever and doors in the floor opened with a deafening metallic clang.
"I can tell it was designed to impose fear on all Iraqis." Rumsfeld said.
Saddam emptied Abu Ghuraib and most other prisons in Iraq in October as the United States prepared to invade. Guards and looters stripped the prisons of most useable equipment, and officials systematically burned prison records, Karpinski said.
Apart from two ****ing hilarious quotes, I guess Rumsfeld knew about these "private contract interrogators".
September last year.
When were the torture photos taken?
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Like I said yesterday, there's far more of this barbarism going on amongst the coalition trooops, and today, I was proved right with the news of British troops torturing Iraqi prisoners.
Don't you just love these 'isolated' incidents in which a brigadier general has been implicated in them, and the actual abuse is getting wider and wider?
This does nothing but destroy, even further, the Iraqi's low opinion of the US just now, when they thought this type of tirture was a thing only happening under Saddam. Now, it's not a question of saying the US troops are anything like the former regime; but it just takes one instance of abuse, and the Iraqi's, who already despise and are wary of US presence there, will lose any thoughts that their new invaders are anything but civilised, and better than Saddam.
It's the Iraqi hearts and minds the invaders are attempting to win over, but with things like this going on, they can forget it.
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"Empty your mind. Be formless, shapeless, like tea. Now you put tea into a cup, it becomes the cup. You put tea into a bottle, it becomes the bottle, you put it in a teapot, it becomes the teapot. Now tea can flow, or it can crash... Be tea my Friend..." -Bruce Lee and Erilaz
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Originally posted by Joshua:
This has very little to do with reality, and everything to do with the ongoing war on the USA's moral credibility.
Yes, the world is filled with Don Quixote's fighting windmills.
How can there be a war against something that doesn't exist. The USA lost credibility of all kinds, especially moral, when it conducted this war.
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Posted by jcadam in 2002:
You are just upset because we have global interests and we want to protect them. The Europeans had their time in the sun (1500s - 1900). It's our turn to run the show now, so just bend over and take it.
I always wondered what he meant.
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This thread is truly amazing. The far right lunatic fringe wavers between denial and outbursts of genocidal and megalomanical xenophobia when confronted with a piece of photographic evidence that, for once, they can't drown out with spin by forcing the focus onto someone else (Spacefreak's little halfhearted attempt at trying to make the person who handed in the photos guilty is the way it usually would have been done if this were not such a grievous case).
The literal foaming at the mouth of fringe gives me the impression that they know that they've lost Iraq now.
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Originally posted by theolein:
This thread is truly amazing. The far right lunatic fringe wavers between denial and outbursts of genocidal and megalomanical xenophobia when confronted with a piece of photographic evidence that, for once, they can't drown out with spin by forcing the focus onto someone else (Spacefreak's little halfhearted attempt at trying to make the person who handed in the photos guilty is the way it usually would have been done if this were not such a grievous case).
The literal foaming at the mouth of fringe gives me the impression that they know that they've lost Iraq now.
Who exactly are you painting with this brush?
All I have seen is pretty much universal condemnation of this disgraceful behavior committed by a few, and a pathetic, gleeful attempt by the left to paint it as somehow representative of all US soldiers in Iraq.
There is some foaming at the mouth all right. I'm surprised you can't see where it is coming from.
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Last edited by SimeyTheLimey; May 1, 2004 at 08:07 AM.
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Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
Who exactly are you painting with this brush?
All I have seen is pretty much universal condemnation of this disgraceful behavior committed by a few, and a pathetic, gleeful attempt by the left to paint it as somehow representative of all US soldiers in Iraq.
There is some foaming at the mouth all right. I'm surprised you can't see where it is coming from.
Looks like some UK soldiers didn't want to be left out....
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What disgusts me more than what a small number of soldiers did is the attempt by foreigners to paint a big brush implying that this is a common practice.
Daily Mail:
"Tortured, abused, and humiliated: The shocking pictures that show how U.S. soldiers treated prisoners."
For shame. The word "some" being left out in an attempt to smear every single soldier with this allegation.
Some people here are trying to make the same pathetic attempt and yes the foaming at the mouth is preventing them from seeing the truth. Of course, anything to make America look bad.
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Originally posted by Nicko:
Looks like some UK soldiers didn't want to be left out....
LBK posted the same thing last night (it's on the previous page). Here's what I posted in reply:
Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
Hmm. I just looked at the BBC link and the Mirror story. That's mighty coincidental timing, don't you think? Right after the US story BING! Here is one from the UK.
It's probably a good idea to keep your skepticism radar operating. It would be very easy to fake such pictures. A little army surplus clothing, a hood, no faces, a little S & M, anonymous delivery, publication in an anti-war tabloid . . .
Remember, there is a real war going on, and a propaganda one too. The US story looks real -- there have been arrests. But let's wait on this British story.
This impression is reenforced by the sudden proliferation of these kinds of pictures poppoing up on the web. I'm not suggesting that the CBS pictures aren't genuine. Far from it. But what is different about those ones is that the soldiers committing the crimes actually showed themselves in the pictures. With that evidence, it is obvious that the pictures are genuine.
But just because one picture is genuine, does not mean all pictures found will be genuine. Anyone with a low-end digital camera and a model can fake as many pictures as they want. Or they could just grab them off a porn site. So let's be a little skeptical here. There are many, many, people with an interest in exploiting the propaganda gift that a handful of idiotic and barbaric US soldiers have handed out.
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Originally posted by vanillacoke:
What disgusts me more than what a small number of soldiers did is the attempt by foreigners to paint a big brush implying that this is a common practice.
Daily Mail:
"Tortured, abused, and humiliated: The shocking pictures that show how U.S. soldiers treated prisoners."
For shame. The word "some" being left out in an attempt to smear every single soldier with this allegation.
Some people here are trying to make the same pathetic attempt and yes the foaming at the mouth is preventing them from seeing the truth. Of course, anything to make America look bad.
Well truthfully, there is no proof how common or uncommon these practices are. There have been rumours for months of torture. It really isn't known how far this goes.
When one considers the irony of this, it makes the US look considerably worse.
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Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
LBK posted the same thing last night (it's on the previous page). Here's what I posted in reply:
Ofcourse its a propaganda war. I mean, did anyone REALLY think that the US was there liberate Iraq? Oh wait, I forgot the war was meant to rid Iraq of WMDs..... where are those again?
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Originally posted by Nicko:
Well truthfully, there is no proof how common or uncommon these practices are. There have been rumours for months of torture. It really isn't known how far this goes.
When one considers the irony of this, it makes the US look considerably worse.
What irony is that?
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I don't think anyone is trying to smear all US soldiers. I know I certainly am not; I have family members who served in the US Armed Forces. However, when this kind of thing has come out in the past, it is often indicative of more going on that hasn't surfaced yet. And the Amnesty International report that Krusty cited suggests this. Widespread? I certainly hope not. But it should not be happening at all. Especially given the moral and religious high ground Bush was trying take when he started this war.
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The way some are posting in this thread along with illformed headlines is leading to the insinuation that all soliders are doing this and it's officially instated from the CIC.
You think Bush has personal control over every single soldier out there? C'mon, that's beneath contempt to suggest that soliders are carrying out some policy from high up like that.
It's embarassing, but, what's more embarassing is the assumption of those who are seeking to exploit this and insinuate that this goes beyond a small group of morons.
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Originally posted by vanillacoke:
What irony is that?
The prisoners who were tortured by the US were held in the former Saddam prisons which were notorious for the torture that went on in them.
Quite ironic.
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Originally posted by Nicko:
The prisoners who were tortured by the US were held in the former Saddam prisons which were notorious for the torture that went on in them.
Quite ironic.
Is it?
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Originally posted by vanillacoke:
Is it?
Do you even know what irony is?
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There seems to be a fundamental lack of human understanding here.
What these soldiers did is inexcusable and court-marshal should be the least of their concerns. They are guilty of crimes against humanity and cruel and unusual punishment. They should be charged, found guilty, and punished according to the severity of each of the counts against them.
They are the minority example of our actions there. They are not the majority. I don't know if some people just like using the term; "fringe, lunatic, rightwing", but it wreaks of 13 yr old reasoning. All this from folks who would consider themselves conscientious objectors and critiquing the coping mechanisms of those caught in hell. Truth be told, we could fight this as an air campaign if it weren't for our concern over collateral damage. We wouldn't have lost the number of soldiers we're losing and those pictured naked above would have the legal rights of a dead person.
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Originally posted by Nicko:
Do you even know what irony is?
Yes. Irony would be if it were official U.S. government policy to torture prisoners.
I fail to see the irony in what a few criminals wearing U.S. military uniforms performed in what just happened to be a prison under Saddam's rule when the official policy of that government was to torture people.
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Originally posted by Nicko:
The prisoners who were tortured by the US were held in the former Saddam prisons which were notorious for the torture that went on in them.
Quite ironic.
Sure, on one level that's ironic. But there is another way to look at it. In Saddam's Iraq, the torturers were rewarded by their government. These ones will be punished by theirs.
That's a crucial distinction. And one which I think is being deliberately ignored.
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Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
....In Saddam's Iraq, the torturers were rewarded by their government....
Evidence?
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Originally posted by voyageur:
I don't think anyone is trying to smear all US soldiers. I know I certainly am not; I have family members who served in the US Armed Forces. However, when this kind of thing has come out in the past, it is often indicative of more going on that hasn't surfaced yet. And the Amnesty International report that Krusty cited suggests this. Widespread? I certainly hope not. But it should not be happening at all. Especially given the moral and religious high ground Bush was trying take when he started this war.
I agree with voyageur.
But we can all easily generalize:
1) The U.S. Army is presented as a homogeneous group
2) It's acting under the guidance of a President who went to war for highly moralistic and humanitarian reasons (and maybe others?)
3) Then a few individuals do a very wrong thing, and that is an uncomfortable reminder of what made the Liberators go in Iraq...
There comes a contradiction that affects the image projected.
On top of that, there are so many events that happened during and before the war that lead to a very strong negative prejudice againts the U.S. President, and some of his advisers (another paradox in the image projected). Then, some individuals will take critics towards that President as a critic of the Nation (we all did, I know I did at some point and I apologize for that) or of themselves.
All these dichotomies are very antagonistic, and seem to force "siding".
I also understand that the syle of some posters (myself included) does not make the discussion any easier (especially in terms of sarcasm and expressions used that seem to generalize).
Of course, Americans have every right to be angry at the few soldiers who may have committed atrocities, as well as being angry for being put in the same bag as these suspicious individuals, as if all Americans were criminals. And that would not be fair for anyone to do so.
We may suspect, I may suspect there is more going on i Iraq and Afghanistan (and elsewhere?), but the proofs I do not have. Nor do I have any proof that the whole act of Liberation is either a success of a failure; I guess it is something in between, with the worst and the best mixed up altogether. Looks like a lot of worse lately, but I will blame it on the media... for the moment.
There is certainly a lot of propaganda going on, from all sides; everyone who has something to gain from this is suspect, mainly the U.S. government because there they are, but the whole set of opportunists includes also people nostalgic of the Hussein regime, as well as any other opportunists in that country or in the neibourghood. The battleground is large and involve more than nations; it includes individuals and corporate interests.
War criminals have always been, and there will be more again in the future as the conflicts of conflicts will increase (if it does). It also happens wherever there are conflicts.
My hope is that we can limit it as much as possible, but unfortunately, it does not always work that way. Actually, paint me as a pessimist, but I don't believe it will improve in the future, wherever it will happen.
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Originally posted by eklipse:
Evidence?
Oh for crying out loud!
Saddam severely punished his torturers. He strongly disapproved of torture. .
Go read some amnesty reports on Ba'athist Iraq. The evidence is all there (if you can stand to read it -- don't do it before lunch).
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Where were all the European papers and their headlines when it came to Saddam's torturing of his citizens? Where was the Arab outrage over that? Did Ted Koppel air a special Nightline remembering all the fallen who died under Saddam's reign?
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Originally posted by vanillacoke:
Where were all the European papers and their headlines when it came to Saddam's torturing of his citizens? Where was the Arab outrage over that? Did Ted Koppel air a special Nightline remembering all the fallen who died under Saddam's reign?
Last time I checked, Saddam wasn't on our payroll carrying out these acts as an official representative of the US. Herein lies the difference and why many of us are concerned about this. The soldiers and contractors in question are not Saddam ... they are us.
On a slightly happier note This article from this morning at least seems to be showing that the investigation of these events was carried out primarily by the Army itself and was apparently well under way before the pictures surfaced and the story broke (the initial Army report was filed by General Antonio Taguba back in February)
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Originally posted by vanillacoke:
Where were all the European papers and their headlines when it came to Saddam's torturing of his citizens?
nowhere, just like their morals and pompous social enlightenment. They sold out to Saddam's oil and money. Saddam did business with them, and they looked the other way and opposed the US at every turn.
France, Germany, and Russia--the Axis of Hypocrisy.
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Sadly, more detailed information that it was not just an isolated incident Article
In an interview last December with the St. Petersburg Times, she [Gen. Kaprinski] said that, for many of the Iraqi inmates at Abu Ghraib, �living conditions now are better in prison than at home. At one point we were concerned that they wouldn�t want to leave.�
A month later, General Karpinski was formally admonished and quietly suspended, and a major investigation into the Army�s prison system,
Specifically, Taguba found that between October and December of 2003 there were numerous instances of �sadistic, blatant, and wanton criminal abuses� at Abu Ghraib. This systematic and illegal abuse of detainees, Taguba reported, was perpetrated by soldiers of the 372nd Military Police Company, and also by members of the American intelligence community.
Such dehumanization is unacceptable in any culture, but it is especially so in the Arab world. Homosexual acts are against Islamic law and it is humiliating for men to be naked in front of other men, Bernard Haykel, a professor of Middle Eastern studies at New York University, explained. �Being put on top of each other and forced to masturbate, being naked in front of each other�it�s all a form of torture,� Haykel said.
Two Iraqi faces that do appear in the photographs are those of dead men. There is the battered face of prisoner No. 153399, and the bloodied body of another prisoner, wrapped in cellophane and packed in ice. There is a photograph of an empty room, splattered with blood.
When he returned later, Wisdom testified:
I saw two naked detainees, one masturbating to another kneeling with its mouth open. I thought I should just get out of there. I didn�t think it was right . . . I saw SSG Frederick walking towards me, and he said, �Look what these animals do when you leave them alone for two seconds.� I heard PFC England shout out, �He�s getting hard.�
Myers, who was one of the military defense attorneys in the My Lai prosecutions of the nineteen-seventies, told me that his client�s defense will be that he was carrying out the orders of his superiors and, in particular, the directions of military intelligence. He said, �Do you really think a group of kids from rural Virginia decided to do this on their own? Decided that the best way to embarrass Arabs and make them talk was to have them walk around nude?�
Captain Robert Shuck, Frederick�s military attorney, closed his defense at the Article 32 hearing last month by saying that the Army was �attempting to have these six soldiers atone for its sins.� Similarly, Gary Myers, Frederick�s civilian attorney, told me that he would argue at the court-martial that culpability in the case extended far beyond his client. �I�m going to drag every involved intelligence officer and civilian contractor I can find into court,� he said. �Do you really believe the Army relieved a general officer because of six soldiers? Not a chance.�
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Originally posted by Krusty:
Last time I checked, Saddam wasn't on our payroll carrying out these acts as an official representative of the US. Herein lies the difference and why many of us are concerned about this. The soldiers and contractors in question are not Saddam ... they are us.
Huh. But is it our military's policy and guidelines to commit these acts or was it something done by a few criminals with no regard for the law or regulations?
I'm just not sure where the concern is coming from and why it should be leveled at the U.S. government or the military as a whole since the Army specifically has been taking care of investigating and punishing those responsible.
It appears that some people are wanting to paint with a rather large brush any time there appears to be a chance to smear our government or our military.
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I'm not sure how much weight I'd give to the statements of the accused soldiers' defense attorneys. They probably don't have much to defend their clients with, but the "just following orders" defense doesn't have a very good track record.
I notice also that one of the attorneys defended those accused of the Mai Lai massacre. Uh huh. Whoever hired that attorney knew he was screwed, imho.
As for suspending the general. That's the most hopeful sign of all in my opinion. It doesn't matter if she didn't order this conduct. It happened under her command. That makes her responsible. At the least, she is responsible for not fostering the kind of command atmosphere that would have prevented this.
Of course, if she knew about it then she should be in the dock too. But the fact that the investigation has reached up into the flag ranks indicates to me that this no whitewash. The Army to say the least doesn't have the reputation of ending the careers of its generals lightly.
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Last edited by SimeyTheLimey; May 1, 2004 at 10:57 AM.
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Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
I'm not sure how much weight I'd give to the statements of the accused soldiers' defense attorneys. They probably don't have much to defend their clients with, but the "just following orders" defense doesn't have a very good track record.
Agreed. Its the statement of the investigating general that carry more weight with me. The statement I quoted just seems to corroborate and, as you noted, Generals aren't relieved of duty lightly.
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Have a rummage around the CACI website. Interesting services.
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Originally posted by Krusty:
Agreed. Its the statement of the investigating general that carry more weight with me. The statement I quoted just seems to corroborate and, as you noted, Generals aren't relieved of duty lightly.
You know, another thing really strikes me and that is the incredible and warped homoerotic overtones to all this. It's just stunning. Remember, this is the army whose morale and combat effectiveness would supposedly be destroyed if openly gay soldiers were to be allowed in. How does that argument go again?
Anyway, that's just a thought. Off topic.
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Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
Who exactly are you painting with this brush?
All I have seen is pretty much universal condemnation of this disgraceful behavior committed by a few, and a pathetic, gleeful attempt by the left to paint it as somehow representative of all US soldiers in Iraq.
There is some foaming at the mouth all right. I'm surprised you can't see where it is coming from.
look at the posts of snickernoodle, for instance. You need to remove that blind patch from your right eye
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Originally posted by theolein:
look at the posts of snickernoodle, for instance. You need to remove that blind patch from your right eye
Not at all. But I'd appreciate it if you are referring to one individual that you make that clear. This thread has had far more frothing from the left than the right. For example, posting pictures from this charming source. But outliers are outliers. Most of us are remarkably agreed that the actions of the few in Iraq are unacceptable, but not imputable to the vast majority of soldiers.
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Last edited by SimeyTheLimey; May 1, 2004 at 11:22 AM.
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Originally posted by vanillacoke:
What disgusts me more than what a small number of soldiers did is the attempt by foreigners to paint a big brush implying that this is a common practice.
Daily Mail:
"Tortured, abused, and humiliated: The shocking pictures that show how U.S. soldiers treated prisoners."
For shame. The word "some" being left out in an attempt to smear every single soldier with this allegation.
Some people here are trying to make the same pathetic attempt and yes the foaming at the mouth is preventing them from seeing the truth. Of course, anything to make America look bad.
When you refer to foreigners, I suppose you're talking about people from the EU.
You're making a huge mistake. What we think, ironically, is of very little consequence in real terms. At worst, Poland could remove its troops (which they are going to do in any case).
No, the real impact of these pictures, and I have to laugh here because you dumb bastards project so much of your hate onto the Europeans that you can't even see it, is in the Muslim and especially the Arabic world, where they weren't exactly your best friends to begin with. In the conservative prude societies of the Arabian world (somewhat like your more conservative Christian areas in the US) there is nothing worse that picture of sexual humiliation, nothing worse. Humiliation is bad enough for them, something they'll kill to revenge, but sexual humiliation has the same effect on them that paedophillia has in the west.
It makes, in real terms, no difference, whether these images of abuse by US and UK soldiers were isolated incidents by some primitive fucks. The Arab world will see and believe it as being widespread. And the Iraqis will almost certainly believe that as well.
That is where the problems start. That is where the insurgency starts on a large scale.
But, hey! No one's stopping you from looking the other way and blaming the Europeans once again. I mean, we understand your need to put the blame on somebody else because you can't face the reality of the problem. We used to do this on a large scale as well, and still do when it helps the old kick in the bollocks.
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Originally posted by theolein:
No, the real impact of these pictures, and I have to laugh here because you dumb bastards project so much of your hate onto the Europeans that you can't even see it, is in the Muslim and especially the Arabic world, where they weren't exactly your best friends to begin with.
We understand this. That's very largely why we are so angry at the individuals who did this. But there is nothing that can be done at this time to undo what has been done. All that can be done is to prosecute the wrongdoers and move on.
But the attempt by people who should be expected to understand us enough to know that this is not our universal behavior doesn't help. Europeans here are only giving credence to the charges in the Middle East that you correctly say will inevitably come.
However, I think that most people do understand that this isn't universal behavior. And in time hopefully we can show by our actions that it isn't. What else, barring the invention of a time machine, can we do? It happened, and what is done is done.
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Do we think these photos will create more terrorists?
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Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
... Europeans here are only giving credence to the charges in the Middle East that you correctly say will inevitably come.
...
QED
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Originally posted by theolein:
QED
To simplify: we expect more from the European media than from outlets like al-Jezeera. Is that so hard to understand? We know they pander to the enemy. You aren't supposed to be.
For example, here is The Independent
The new Iraq, it was said, would be different from Saddam's dictatorship. Now it transpires that the US military has been conducting its own _ admittedly less murderous _ maltreatment of the Iraqis it was supposed to be rescuing, in the Abu Ghraib prison that was the symbol of Saddam's repression.
Very responsible.
And here is the leader from The Guardian
A single image retains the power to shock, even in this multi-media, broadband, 24-hour rolling news age. The picture of an Iraqi prisoner held by US forces in Abu Ghraib prison, forced to stand on a block with electrical wires attached to his body, clothed in a Ku Klux Klan-style hood, is more than just another embarrassment for the Bush administration. This and the other images, of naked Iraqi prisoners being abused and humiliated by their US captors, awakens every dark suspicion of US intentions in Iraq, and is the most effective recruiting sergeant for the forces of resistance inside and outside Iraq. This is not just a colossal blunder by the US - it inaugurates a whole new level of fears and dangers, both in Iraq and among many Muslims throughout the world.
The events inside Abu Ghraib prison opens a shameful episode of US ill-treatment of its prisoners, and has provoked worldwide condemnation.
Where is the differentiation between America and a handful of outlaw soldiers there? I don't see any. All I see is the widest, and most irresponsible brush possible. The exploitation of this issue is simply shameful. And I haven't even looked at the tabloids!
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Last edited by SimeyTheLimey; May 1, 2004 at 11:58 AM.
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Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
We understand this. That's very largely why we are so angry at the individuals who did this. But there is nothing that can be done at this time to undo what has been done. All that can be done is to prosecute the wrongdoers and move on.
The question left is, will this prosecution done so that Iraqi can understand it?
Since the information leaked out of the military, it is now available for the Iraqi population. What will be the impact on the population, and how will the U.S. military react to it?
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"******* politics is for the ******* moment. ******** equations are for ******** Eternity." ******** Albert Einstein
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Originally posted by angaq0k:
The question left is, will this prosecution done so that Iraqi can understand it?
Since the information leaked out of the military, it is now available for the Iraqi population. What will be the impact on the population, and how will the U.S. military react to it?
I don't know the answer to that. It is was up to me, I'd say have a quick and public trial. However, we can't do a show trial no matter how much it might benefit the US to hang them publicly and by about next Wednesday. We do that the rule of law here, and these accused people do deserve the full protections of due process of law no matter what we might think of them.
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Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
To simplify: we expect more from the European media than from outlets like al-Jezeera. Is that so hard to understand? We know they pander to the enemy. You aren't supposed to be.
For example, here is The Independent
Very responsible.
And here is the leader from The Guardian
Where is the differentiation between America and a handful of outlaw soldiers there? I don't see any. All I see is the widest, and most irresponsible brush possible. The exploitation of this issue is simply shameful. And I haven't even looked at the tabloids!
speaking of a wide brush, the guardian and the independent aren't "the European media".
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Originally posted by yakkiebah:
speaking of a wide brush, the guardian and the independent aren't "the European media".
Yes. Unfortunately, broadsheets like that are more responsible than most.
Incidentally, isn't it odd that the Iraqi being beaten up in the Mirror's exclusive happens to be wearing a neato T-shirt with a big Iraqi flag on it? I suppose the pictures could be genuine. But that is a little strange. It's kind of like when a cartoon has to label all the characters just to make it really obvious what you are looking at.
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The more I think about it, the more I think the US Army has a pretty major problem with discipline at the moment. I mean, they have GI's raping people in Asia, joyriding their planes through cable cars in Italy, homicides in Afghanistan, tortures in Iraq. This has been a long time coming (even though it happened a long time ago). I really think they need to take a bit more serious look at all of these issues and address the lack of discipline.
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Originally posted by Troll:
The more I think about it, the more I think the US Army has a pretty major problem with discipline at the moment. I mean, they have GI's raping people in Asia, joyriding their planes through cable cars in Italy, homicides in Afghanistan, tortures in Iraq. This has been a long time coming (even though it happened a long time ago). I really think they need to take a bit more serious look at all of these issues and address the lack of discipline.
Troll: There are roughly 1.4 million men and women in the US military. Of course there are occasional incidents. But yours is a pretty silly comment. You picked a handful of incidents spread out over almost a decade and from several services. That's neither realistic nor fair.
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