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CBS obtains photos showing alleged abuse (Page 9)
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Originally posted by Taliesin:
1. If the USA doesn't want to go the UN-way then they put themselves outside of international law, and that makes the USA the agressor and a pariah-state all other nations in the UN should act against.
2. 20,000 killed Kurds and Shia are definetly a crime, but it's not the US's task to punish Iraq for that. Last I counted the US-army killed 11,000 civilians in Iraq this time, and I don't know how many in the first war against Iraq. I'm sure it soon will equate the sum Saddam has killed, if it hasn't already exceeded it. Why not invading Rwanda for the millions it has killed?
Tal�esin
I'm going to be very blunt with you.
We'll defend the USA the way we feel it should be defended, and if we have to go to another country and kick the **** out of them to stablize an area, we will. Militants in Arab countries WILL figure this out, or they'll die. The Arabs have refused to "play nice" with others for long enough.
Rwanda? We'll get to them soon enough.
And as for the UN threat, if they've got the nads... they can bring it.
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Originally posted by vanillacoke:
Europe spawned him...Europe could have contained him. But did appeasement work?
Ah, so what you're saying is that Europe was to BLAME for Hitler. What you said before was that he was Europe's problem. As if Hitler wasn't a threat to the USA which is clearly crud.
As for Europe having "spawned" Hitler, I must say that I find it rather bizarre to suggest that all Europeans are to blame for what Hitler turned into. I take it you've been to "Europe." Did you have a little ski in Kaernten, Oesterreich where you experienced the community that Hitler was born into? And did you then compare that to the community of Liverpool, Ingalind and find them to be the same?
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Originally posted by MacNStein:
... if we have to go to another country and kick the **** out of them to stablize an area, we will ...
PudTHEPROOFding
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Originally posted by Troll:
PudTHEPROOFding
It's getting there, oh it's getting there.
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- Thomas Paine
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Originally posted by Taliesin:
1. If the USA doesn't want to go the UN-way then they put themselves outside of international law, and that makes the USA the agressor and a pariah-state all other nations in the UN should act against.
International law? What is that exactly? Is there an international government that supercedes the authority of the U.S. to act in its own best interests?
2. 20,000 killed Kurds and Shia are definetly a crime, but it's not the US's task to punish Iraq for that.
I didn't see any other country stepping up to the plate to play ball. Europe? Hey appeasement works!
Last I counted the US-army killed 11,000 civilians in Iraq this time/
Accidentally? Or intentionally?
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Originally posted by Troll:
Ah, so what you're saying is that Europe was to BLAME for Hitler. What you said before was that he was Europe's problem. As if Hitler wasn't a threat to the USA which is clearly crud.
Hitler was a European problem. Europe collectively ignored the threat until it was too late and we have to save Europe. And when we finished we gave back the countries to their inhabitants after we spilled blood and expended much cash in the process of liberating them and rebuilding their cities.
As for Europe having "spawned" Hitler, I must say that I find it rather bizarre to suggest that all Europeans are to blame for what Hitler turned into.
European governments did nothing to actively stop his aggression other than give him land and ask him to play nice. Gosh, why does the same tune echo again in 2003?
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I knew it, ultra-conservatives are not able of thinking on their own, just like small boys in the kindergarten. Luckily though not all americans are made of the same backwood.
If you are that patriotic, you should go and take out George W. Bush, he definetly sold his soul to the Saudis, and is a good friend of the Bin Ladens-family.
Taliesin
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Originally posted by vanillacoke:
Hitler was a European problem. Europe collectively ignored the threat until it was too late and we have to save Europe. And when we finished we gave back the countries to their inhabitants after we spilled blood and expended much cash in the process of liberating them and rebuilding their cities.
European governments did nothing to actively stop his aggression other than give him land and ask him to play nice. Gosh, why does the same tune echo again in 2003?
Why do you have to derail every thread into one about Hitler? How many times can we correct you...
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Originally posted by itai195:
Why do you have to derail every thread into one about Hitler? How many times can we correct you...
Because Europe wanted to appease Saddam?....
Because Europe doesn't know how to deal with their own problems?...
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Originally posted by vanillacoke:
Because Europe wanted to appease Saddam?....
... in what manner did all of Europe appease Saddam? He hadn't been belligerent for over a decade.
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It only takes one vote to veto a resolution. I'd say that France and Russia (along with Germany) are representative of Europe.
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Originally posted by vanillacoke:
It only takes one vote to veto a resolution. I'd say that France and Russia (along with Germany) are representative of Europe.
I wouldn't. But now that you've narrowed it down, how did they appease Saddam? Was he threatening war?
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Originally posted by vanillacoke:
Because Europe wanted to appease Saddam?....
Because Europe doesn't know how to deal with their own problems?...
If you're going to post, can you try to post coherent arguments. You've facilitate between Hitler was Europe's problem and Europe is to blame for Hitler.
As to the first one, if the US really believed that Hitler was only a threat to Europe, then they wouldn't have got involved. Clearly Hitler was a threat to the whole planet. He was the entire planet's problem!
As to the second "argument," if you had any experience with Europe, you'd realise that Austria and England and Spain and Poland and Czechoslovakia are very different places. They all reacted differently in WWII. Your grouping Europe together shows how uninformed you are.
As to Europe appeasing Germany, did you miss the part where France and England declared war on Germany? Did you miss the part where they fought the Germans for years before the US stepped in.
And Europe appeased Saddam. Right! France bombed Saddam for how many years? France imposed sanctions on Saddam for how many years.
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Originally posted by vanillacoke:
It only takes one vote to veto a resolution. I'd say that France and Russia (along with Germany) are representative of Europe.
Not voting for a war because they weren't convinced that Iraq was a threat to peace equals appeasement??? Do you have an open tube of glue lying around there perhaps? A gas mains open? Have you been smoking your socks?
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I must have missed the connection, but I fail to realize how Hitler, guns in Switzerland, weird American re-writings of history, and vanillacoke's desperate ignorant ramblings when his arguments ran out/were destroyed, relate to the simple FACT that
these images, be they real or not, be they exceptions or not, and may they lead to appropriate investigations and consequences or not, are the END of America's attempt to win the population of Iraq over to their side.
What you've seen begin as an "insurgency" will now become full-scale rebellion that will not end until either a) you've left, or b) you've killed every last inhabitant of Iraq.
And if the choice is b), as some here apparently would have it, that path will pretty surely lead to c) the killing of many, many, many more Americans through the hands of fighters who do not conform to your rules of war or the geographical boundaries you may wish to confine it to, who do not care to live, and, above all, will now be justified in a way they never were before your actions entitled them in the eyes of the Arab world.
-s*
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Originally posted by vanillacoke:
Accidentally? Or intentionally?
Doesn't matter.
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Originally posted by Spheric Harlot:
I must have missed the connection, but I fail to realize how Hitler, guns in Switzerland, weird American re-writings of history, and vanillacoke's desperate ignorant ramblings when his arguments ran out/were destroyed, relate to the simple FACT that
these images, be they real or not, be they exceptions or not, and may they lead to appropriate investigations and consequences or not, are the END of America's attempt to win the population of Iraq over to their side.
What you've seen begin as an "insurgency" will now become full-scale rebellion that will not end until either a) you've left, or b) you've killed every last inhabitant of Iraq.
And if the choice is b), as some here apparently would have it, that path will pretty surely lead to c) the killing of many, many, many more Americans through the hands of fighters who do not conform to your rules of war or the geographical boundaries you may wish to confine it to, who do not care to live, and, above all, will now be justified in a way they never were before your actions entitled them in the eyes of the Arab world.
-s*
What I've been saying for the last couple of pages, when the thread wasn't being derailed.
It's over. The war to mould Iraq into some form of nation that the US wanted is lost and gone.
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I haven't seen this mentioned before, but a very famous study in psychology is the Stanford Prison Experiment by Phil Zimbardo, who is the current president of the American Psychological Association. He had students randomly assigned to play the role of either a prisoner or a guard. It's basically a study of the power of social roles.
I'm on a e-mail distribution list that he's also on, and I don't think he would mind, but here's a part of an e-mail that he sent out yesterday:
As the guards on the night shift became ever more bored with their long 8 hour shift, they began to use the prisoners as play things for their amusement, believing that their actions were not under surviellance during the night (they were secretly video taped for subsequent viewing). I then discovered they would get them to simulate sodomy and other homophobic behaviors. They also stripped prisoners naked for various offenses, took away their sheets and mattresses, put them in solitary for excessive periods -- all of which are mirrored in the behavior of military police in the Abu Ghraib prison outside of Bagdad. It is one reason we ended the study a week early because the guards were abusing the power in their roles, and were becoming uncontrollable by our staff.
These individuals were just playing the role of prison guard in the conditions they were put in. Yes, they should be punished, but in some ways, I feel bad for them too. It's got to have a negative effect on you to treat other human beings in that fashion.
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Originally posted by BRussell:
I haven't seen this mentioned before, but a very famous study in psychology is the Stanford Prison Experiment by Phil Zimbardo, who is the current president of the American Psychological Association. He had students randomly assigned to play the role of either a prisoner or a guard. It's basically a study of the power of social roles.
I'm on a e-mail distribution list that he's also on, and I don't think he would mind, but here's a part of an e-mail that he sent out yesterday:
These individuals were just playing the role of prison guard in the conditions they were put in. Yes, they should be punished, but in some ways, I feel bad for them too. It's got to have a negative effect on you to treat other human beings in that fashion.
I remember that study. That one and Ingram's were classics iin social psychology. There was a German movie romanticizing the story: Das Experiment from Zimbardo's.
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Originally posted by angaq0k:
I remember that study. That one and Ingram's were classics iin social psychology. There was a German movie romanticizing the story: Das Experiment from Zimbardo's.
You must mean Milgram.
I haven't seen that movie - I'll have to check it out.
But yeah those were the good old days of psychology, when you could have people torture one another and put them in prisons in the basement of the psyc building. :nostalgic smiley:
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Originally posted by Taliesin:
WOW,
the whole macnn-ultra-conservative-gang has gathered together. That means I'm up to something.
Sorry, folks,
but you wouldn't understand a thing even if you were spoonfed with wisedom:
If the US-army invaded Iraq in order to finally disarm Iraq from its ABC-weapons, it would be understandable, though only with full UN-support and under UN-lead, and only because Iraq had signed that non-profileration-treaty.
If the US-army invaded Iraq because Iraq's government was harbouring terrorists that have or will leash terror-attacks from Iraq's soil onto the USA or some other nation and which are equipped and supported by Iraq's government, then it would be understandable, again only under UN-flag.
If the US-army invaded Iraq because the government is committing genocide against parts of its population, in order to save that part of population from genocide, then it would be understandable, again only under UN-flag.
But if the USA unilaterally decides to invade another nation in order to topple a government the USA itself has installed or at least massively supported military, for reasons that were partly true and mostly lied together, that is not understandable.
Even the 10,000-20,000 gased Kurds and Shia are no reason to invade, because these are already dead, and in the mean-time Iraq has lost all its chemical weapons thanks to the UN-inspections, and other countries in this unholy world have done much worse things and still noone is interested in it.
Interesting, I'm forced to partially defend Saddam Hussein, eventhough he is my thirdworst enemy.
Don't let your hearts burst, but the USA did not invade Iraq for humanitarian reasons or in order to eliminate a threat to the western world, it did so only for egoistic strategic reasons, for ressources, and a future market for US-products, basically leading war as a mean to overcome recession.
And yes Saudi Arabia is under US-control, the small gulfstates as well, and Iraq soon as well.
One of you brought the argument that the OPEC can't be under US-control, because the OPEC is raising the prices for its oil.
Like I said previously the USA controls the oil in the middle-east because it wants to gain control of the economies of Europe, China, and Japan, who get their oil nearly 100% from the middleeast.
The USA on the other hand has its own oil in Texas, Alaska, and additionaly from Venezuela. Only a small part of the oil the US gets from the middleeast. For the USA higher oil-prices in the middleeast are definetly a nice gift, as it means that the USA can start digging for more oil in areas that are a little costly. Additionaly it makes it more hard for Europe, China and Japan to strengthen its economies.
Taliesin
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Originally posted by BRussell:
You must mean Milgram.
I haven't seen that movie - I'll have to check it out.
But yeah those were the good old days of psychology, when you could have people torture one another and put them in prisons in the basement of the psyc building. :nostalgic smiley:
Yep.
All you need is a benevolent mind acting for the "Greater Good" and... Voil�!
You are right, about Miligram, of course. I am sightly dylexic...
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(
Last edited by daimoni; Sep 12, 2004 at 12:42 AM.
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Originally posted by daimoni:
LBK. C'mon. You're better than this. Smarter than this.
I'd like to say that I totally agree with Taliesin on this.
We have seen no proof of any kind of reconstruction so far. If the U.S. government had been serious about Human Rights, they would have done so a long time ago. So few soldiers sent at once, so few realizations except for the production of oil, so many contracts to U.S. privateers, such bad planning of the safety of the citizen, and the protection of its own interest, such disregard for Iraq's infrastructures, so many advantages in creating chaos locally, so much disrespect of human rights through false emprisonments, so many innocents killed, too many victims of torture from a so-called civilized country, so many associations with murderous dictators (see Uzbekistan)...
Oh yeah. I agree with Taliesin and with LBK.
Call me whatever you want, but if this whole operation does not reek dishonesty, at the very least, it's of a great level of crappyness...
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"******* politics is for the ******* moment. ******** equations are for ******** Eternity." ******** Albert Einstein
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The full text of the Taguba report - the internal Army investigation that seems to be pretty tough - is now online.
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"******* politics is for the ******* moment. ******** equations are for ******** Eternity." ******** Albert Einstein
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Originally posted by BRussell:
Beat ya!
(
Last edited by angaq0k; May 4, 2004 at 09:11 PM.
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Well, earlier in this thread (before it became another inane sidetrack of EU bashing), I had expressed some fairly critical opinions about the US's role in all of this. After reading the report, I feel somewhat justified. Basically, if you read the lower sections (with recommendations for officer removal and reprimand), Taguba basically describes the whole management of the prison as a giant cluster-f#ck, completely chaotic, and unprofessional from the very top levels on down. However, one extremely heartening thing I found toward the end that I think bears quoting (bolding mine):
4._ (U) The individual Soldiers and Sailors that we observed and believe should be favorably noted include:
a._ (U) Master-at-Arms First Class William J. Kimbro, US Navy Dog Handler, knew his duties and refused to participate in improper interrogations despite significant pressure from the MI personnel at Abu Ghraib._
b._ (U) SPC Joseph M. Darby, 372nd MP Company discovered evidence of abuse and turned it over to military law enforcement.
c._ (U) 1LT David O. Sutton, 229th MP Company, took immediate action and stopped an abuse, then reported the incident to the chain of command.
Thanks guys
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(
Last edited by daimoni; Sep 12, 2004 at 12:43 AM.
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Originally posted by daimoni:
Even the creepy and oh so convenient explaining away/dismissal of the Kurd genocide issue?
10,000-20,000 killed civilians doesn't qualify as genocide, it qualifies only as a massacre. Israel did those massacres in the same range in Lebanon in the eighties, and I currently don't see the USA invading Israel.
The turks killed many more kurds, nonetheless they are USA's allie.
Before the invasion of the USA, the Shia- and the Kurds-regions had autonomy.
Taliesin
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Originally posted by Taliesin:
10,000-20,000 killed civilians doesn't qualify as genocide, it qualifies only as a massacre. Israel did those massacres in the same range in Lebanon in the eighties, and I currently don't see the USA invading Israel.
The turks killed many more kurds, nonetheless they are USA's allie.
Before the invasion of the USA, the Shia- and the Kurds-regions had autonomy.
Taliesin
Have you gone fu�king mad? If that doesn't qualify as genocide when the killings of smaller numbers of Bosnian Muslims did, then I'm fu�ked and I give up. Why the fu�k are you trying to minimize Saddam's actions. The fu�ker was an inhuman butcher. Not only that but you are doing exactly the same fu�king bullsh�t argumentation as the people who try to compare US abuses and Saddam's abuses.
A crime against humanity is a crime against humanity, and one does not justify another.
And your theory about the US controlling OPEC stands up there with UFOs, Alien abductions and other bizarre nonsense.
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weird wabbit
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Originally posted by daimoni:
Even the creepy and oh so convenient explaining away/dismissal of the Kurd genocide issue?
I still stand by my thumbsup - especially considering that the 'Kurd genocide issue' was committed by Iran, not Iraq. I don't see the US invading Iran - yet.
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Originally posted by Taliesin:
10,000-20,000 killed civilians doesn't qualify as genocide, it qualifies only as a massacre. Israel did those massacres in the same range in Lebanon in the eighties, and I currently don't see the USA invading Israel.
The turks killed many more kurds, nonetheless they are USA's allie.
Before the invasion of the USA, the Shia- and the Kurds-regions had autonomy.
Taliesin
genocide, massacre, ethnic cleansing
semantics - its all the same..
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Originally posted by theolein:
Have you gone fu�king mad? If that doesn't qualify as genocide when the killings of smaller numbers of Bosnian Muslims did, then I'm fu�ked and I give up. Why the fu�k are you trying to minimize Saddam's actions. The fu�ker was an inhuman butcher. Not only that but you are doing exactly the same fu�king bullsh�t argumentation as the people who try to compare US abuses and Saddam's abuses.
A crime against humanity is a crime against humanity, and one does not justify another.
And your theory about the US controlling OPEC stands up there with UFOs, Alien abductions and other bizarre nonsense.
I believe Taliesin was highlighting the hypocrisy shown by the US by invading Iraq supposedly due to humanitarian concern, whilst at the same time being closely allied with people who have committed similar atrocities such as Iran, Israel and Turkey. I don't think he was excusing any of the atrocities.
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Originally posted by theolein:
Have you gone fu�king mad? If that doesn't qualify as genocide when the killings of smaller numbers of Bosnian Muslims did, then I'm fu�ked and I give up. Why the fu�k are you trying to minimize Saddam's actions. The fu�ker was an inhuman butcher. Not only that but you are doing exactly the same fu�king bullsh�t argumentation as the people who try to compare US abuses and Saddam's abuses.
A crime against humanity is a crime against humanity, and one does not justify another.
And your theory about the US controlling OPEC stands up there with UFOs, Alien abductions and other bizarre nonsense.
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Originally posted by lil'babykitten:
I believe Taliesin was highlighting the hypocrisy shown by the US by invading Iraq supposedly due to humanitarian concern, whilst at the same time being closely allied with people who have committed similar atrocities such as Iran, Israel and Turkey. I don't think he was excusing any of the atrocities.
Show me a country in the middle east where there hasn't been some form of mass murder/ethnic cleansing/genocide in its history and I'll show you the immaculate conception.*
*For that matter show my any country which hasn't had a period of mass brutality in its history and I'll show you that the immaculate conception was actually the work of aliens who brought life to earth�.
Hypocrisy is part and parcle of national and international politics and weaves a fine thread throughout human history. Geopolitical politics and strategies are usually the product of national self interest and power struggles, and there is very little in the way of human decency, honesty or integrity involved. I think it was Eisenhower who said, "No damn bastard ever won a war by doing any fighting. He won the war by getting others to do the fighting for him", and, IMO, that goes as much for GW Bush and his circus ensemble as well as as Osama Bin Laden, Saddam Hussein or anyone else in a position of power.
That is why Communism was originally so popular, as many thought they could finally get out from the shackles of doing the elites dirty work. They then discovered that a new elite came to power that was no better than the old one.
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weird wabbit
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Originally posted by theolein:
Show me a country in the middle east where there hasn't been some form of mass murder/ethnic cleansing/genocide in its history and I'll show you the immaculate conception.*
*For that matter show my any country which hasn't had a period of mass brutality in its history and I'll show you that the immaculate conception was actually the work of aliens who brought life to earth�.
Hypocrisy is part and parcle of national and international politics and weaves a fine thread throughout human history. Geopolitical politics and strategies are usually the product of national self interest and power struggles, and there is very little in the way of human decency, honesty or integrity involved. I think it was Eisenhower who said, "No damn bastard ever won a war by doing any fighting. He won the war by getting others to do the fighting for him", and, IMO, that goes as much for GW Bush and his circus ensemble as well as as Osama Bin Laden, Saddam Hussein or anyone else in a position of power.
That is why Communism was originally so popular, as many thought they could finally get out from the shackles of doing the elites dirty work. They then discovered that a new elite came to power that was no better than the old one.
Exactly,
Taliesin
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Originally posted by Taliesin:
Exactly,
Taliesin
[whispering]I think he was disagreeing with you[/whispering]
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he got smacked-down so hard he lost consciousness and forgot which side he was on.
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Originally posted by itai195:
[whispering]I think he was disagreeing with you[/whispering]
LOL
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Originally posted by theolein:
Show me a country in the middle east where there hasn't been some form of mass murder/ethnic cleansing/genocide in its history and I'll show you the immaculate conception.*
*For that matter show my any country which hasn't had a period of mass brutality in its history and I'll show you that the immaculate conception was actually the work of aliens who brought life to earth�.
Hypocrisy is part and parcle of national and international politics and weaves a fine thread throughout human history. Geopolitical politics and strategies are usually the product of national self interest and power struggles, and there is very little in the way of human decency, honesty or integrity involved. I think it was Eisenhower who said, "No damn bastard ever won a war by doing any fighting. He won the war by getting others to do the fighting for him", and, IMO, that goes as much for GW Bush and his circus ensemble as well as as Osama Bin Laden, Saddam Hussein or anyone else in a position of power.
That is why Communism was originally so popular, as many thought they could finally get out from the shackles of doing the elites dirty work. They then discovered that a new elite came to power that was no better than the old one.
Oh I agree with aaall of that. But here's what I would add:
There is absolutely no doubt that history is riddled with numerous examples of governments getting others to do the fighting for them as well as generally being hypocritical in their actions. What a sad demonstration of our 'humanity' that is.
What annoys me most is that governments get away with it all the damn time. Some people are enlightened enough to see the inconsitencies when they occur, but all such dissent is supressed - todays method being about brushing it aside as a 'conspiracy theory', at the very least. Or, it becomes history and we all say 'hey look at that, how could we have let that happen? Oh well!'. Or even worse, we just come to accept it as 'that's how it always has been' - therefore there is nothing we can do? Danegerous way to go, IMO, because we just let history repeat itself.
The hypocrisy needs to be pointed out and acted upon. International relations has for too long been about furthering one countries own interests, usually at the expense of another's. I'd say there should be more effort to work as a community, reaching a common ground where all players receive equal gain.
Of course such a turnaround will take time and obviously requires one to recognise the flaws in the current way in which international relations work. Working to further ones own selfish interest, regardless of the repercussions it has on others, is still accepted as just. But one thing we must do, and this takes us back to Taliesin's post, is to recognise the hypocrisy in the actions of government's and point them out. That must never stop until the governments involved end their inconsistent, hypocritical and damaging ways.
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Originally posted by theolein:
*For that matter show my any country which hasn't had a period of mass brutality in its history and I'll show you that the immaculate conception was actually the work of aliens who brought life to earth�.
Isle of Man.
Andorra.
Monaco.
Now... What about this conception thingy? Post your address and I'll have the media around there sharpish.
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Originally posted by Sherwin:
Isle of Man.
Andorra.
Monaco.
Now... What about this conception thingy? Post your address and I'll have the media around there sharpish.
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Originally posted by Sherwin:
Isle of Man.
Andorra.
Monaco.
Now... What about this conception thingy? Post your address and I'll have the media around there sharpish.
Monaco? The Grimaldis stole the whole kingdom, took it by force ... and there'll be more of where that came from if Chelsea does the business on them tonight
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Today's New Flash:
"Technical difficulties" postpone the release today by the US State Department of their annual report "Supporting Human Rights and Democracy: The U.S. Record 2003-2004�.
Wonder what those difficulties might be.
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Bush to Arab TV:
They must also understand that what took place in that prison does not represent the America that I know. The America I know is a compassionate country that believes in freedom. The America I know cares about every individual. The America I know has sent troops into Iraq to promote freedom, good, honorable citizens that are helping Iraqis every day.
This seems to me to strike exactly the wrong tone. Basically, he's saying "we're America, and you all know that America isn't like this, right?" The thing is, that audience, rightly or wrongly, DOES think America, or at least Bush's America, is like this. It fits in with Gitmo. It fits in with their perception of how we treat the Middle East. This isn't a frickin speech in Texas.
What he needs to do is simply say that we screwed up, he understands the outrage, and he's going to correct it.
I couldn't find a full transcript of what he said, so maybe he did say these things. But the "America doesn't act like this because we're wonderful" line that's being reported on the major internet news sites seems utterly unconvincing and kind of arrogant. I think part of what's going on is that the Arab world wants us to have a black eye over this. Therefore humility is in order, if not an apology.
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Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
he got smacked-down so hard he lost consciousness and forgot which side he was on.
I don't care for sides, if someone from "the other side" has made a good posting I applaud it.
Besides there is no smackdown in it. He said that every nation on earth has done its massacres sometime in history, perhaps you are reading only the first two lines?
Do you want to read a real smackdown? I didn't want to bring it on, but you wanted it so:
Everyone is saying that the 10,000-20,000 Kurds and Shia that Saddam Hussein has killed are a genocide, civilians killed by chemical weapons, women and children, men and elderly, but what about the 100,000 civilians or more the USA killed by dropping an atom-bomb on Nagasaki, and an additional 100,000 civilians or more killed by dropping an atom-bomb on Hiroshima?
You will probably justify it by saying: Oh, that was a war, Japan vs. USA.
The Kurds and Shia also led a war or rather a rebellion against Hussein.
What about the civilians the USA killed in vietnam by napalmising whole villages? How many were killed there?
Don't misunderstand me, I'm really against Hussein, but the USA didn't do its job there because he commited a genocide or rather a massacre, since the USA itself has done massacres and genocides at least 10-times.
Taliesin
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