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A report on the scale of the abuse and torture
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angaq0k
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May 20, 2004, 06:56 AM
 
Here is a British documentary about the abuse and the torture in Iraq.

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lil'babykitten
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May 20, 2004, 07:02 AM
 
I saw that documentary on TV last night.

Lots of worrying revelations about how far up the command structure this went.
     
spacefreak
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May 20, 2004, 09:35 AM
 
Originally posted by lil'babykitten:
I saw that documentary on TV last night.

Lots of worrying revelations about how far up the command structure this went.
The only ones portraying this as "worrying" are those on the far left. Everyone else realizes that we are in a war where that must be won.
     
lil'babykitten
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May 20, 2004, 09:53 AM
 
Originally posted by spacefreak:
The only ones portraying this as "worrying" are those on the far left. Everyone else realizes that we are in a war where that must be won.
I thought Bush declared 'Mission Accomplished'?

So you support the torture of these prisoners? It's all part of winning the war, right?

wow.
     
daimoni
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May 20, 2004, 11:51 AM
 
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( Last edited by daimoni; Sep 12, 2004 at 12:59 AM. )
     
Spliffdaddy
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May 20, 2004, 11:56 AM
 
We're still better than those that warm chairs and move lips.
     
daimoni
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May 20, 2004, 12:03 PM
 
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( Last edited by daimoni; Sep 12, 2004 at 12:59 AM. )
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itai195
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May 20, 2004, 12:36 PM
 
Originally posted by spacefreak:
The only ones portraying this as "worrying" are those on the far left. Everyone else realizes that we are in a war where that must be won.
Is everything a political issue with you? I guess all the Senators and whatnot who are concerned about this, including Republicans, are all just 'on the far left' and don't care about winning the war.
     
Shaddim
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May 20, 2004, 12:46 PM
 
Originally posted by daimoni:
Yeah. We tie them to the chair and make them move their lips now.
If neccessary, and yes, sometimes it is neccessary.
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Shaddim
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May 20, 2004, 12:47 PM
 
Originally posted by itai195:
Is everything a political issue with you? I guess all the Senators and whatnot who are concerned about this, including Republicans, are all just 'on the far left' and don't care about winning the war.
Agreed. They need to stop whining.
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TheMosco
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May 20, 2004, 01:19 PM
 
Originally posted by itai195:
Is everything a political issue with you? I guess all the Senators and whatnot who are concerned about this, including Republicans, are all just 'on the far left' and don't care about winning the war.
Couldn't agree more, like people have been saying before, partisan issues aside, we need to show that we are the good guys, not the less bad guys.
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dcolton
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May 20, 2004, 02:01 PM
 
Originally posted by TheMosco:
Couldn't agree more, like people have been saying before, partisan issues aside, we need to show that we are the good guys, not the less bad guys.
"Nice guys finish last"
     
itai195
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May 20, 2004, 02:11 PM
 
Originally posted by dcolton:
"Nice guys finish last"
Lance Armstrong seems like a pretty nice guy

Anyway, complex issues can't be boiled down to a simple-minded colloquialism.
     
freakboy2
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May 20, 2004, 02:36 PM
 
i think that when we're dealing with simple minds like this we need to stay to simple statements:

bring it on.

mission accomplished.

on all 4s and bark like a dog.

oh wait, can you guys actually count to 4?

Seriously, justifying this torture in any way whatsoever is so shameful and lame that it makes me sorry that our educational system failed you so badly. And if you were serious about winning this war at any cost then you wouldn't support how bush and rummy pursued it because the first rule of war is to use overwhelming power. Right now our troops are spread so thin, they can't guard their own supply lines.

As for using these "techniques" to get information, there aren't any intelligence people saying that these techniques are useful. They were designed simply to demean and degrade people who were randomly picked up during security sweeps. It's human degradation at its worst.

fb
     
TheMosco
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May 20, 2004, 02:45 PM
 
Originally posted by freakboy2:
As for using these "techniques" to get information, there aren't any intelligence people saying that these techniques are useful. They were designed simply to demean and degrade people who were randomly picked up during security sweeps. It's human degradation at its worst.
fb
Very true, it appears as if most of these we picked up in random sweeps. The army would just storm a house and take away all the adult males. Red Cross citing the us army reports that anywhere from 70 to 90 percent of these prisoners were arrested by mistake. These methods have no use as you aren't going to get any information from this people.
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dcolton
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May 20, 2004, 02:49 PM
 
Originally posted by freakboy2:
i think that when we're dealing with simple minds like this we need to stay to simple statements:

bring it on.

mission accomplished.

on all 4s and bark like a dog.

oh wait, can you guys actually count to 4?

Seriously, justifying this torture in any way whatsoever is so shameful and lame that it makes me sorry that our educational system failed you so badly. And if you were serious about winning this war at any cost then you wouldn't support how bush and rummy pursued it because the first rule of war is to use overwhelming power. Right now our troops are spread so thin, they can't guard their own supply lines.

As for using these "techniques" to get information, there aren't any intelligence people saying that these techniques are useful. They were designed simply to demean and degrade people who were randomly picked up during security sweeps. It's human degradation at its worst.

fb
Who is justifying torture? Naked prisoners, bah - not a big deal to me. Beating prisoners...bad. Killing prisoners...murder. Raping prisoners...rape. The guilty soldiers will be held accountable for their actions.

The thing is, no one is brought up on chargers for murder or rape. IMO, it is still a rumor. You see, I am American...I don't blindly take the word of our enemies as absolute truth, especially when the evidence is circumstantial at the least.

As for the dead prisoners in ice...Does that mean American soldiers killed him? NOPE. It could mean the person died, and they put the body on ice until it can be removed. So the guy could have died of a heart attack or could have been killed by another prisoner.

As for forcing prisoners to masturbate...come on. How can you force someone to become sexually stimulated long enough to ejaculate while others are watching. And if you think muslims don't masturbate...you need to get a clue.

A better question, who is ignoring the atrocities of the killer muslims? (That would be you and your comrades).
     
dcolton
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May 20, 2004, 02:51 PM
 
Originally posted by TheMosco:
Very true, it appears as if most of these we picked up in random sweeps. The army would just storm a house and take away all the adult males. Red Cross citing the us army reports that anywhere from 70 to 90 percent of these prisoners were arrested by mistake. These methods have no use as you aren't going to get any information from this people.
And you are an expert in what? How do you know what informationa has or has not been extracted. How do you know whether or not these methods are successful?

Detaining a suspiciously innocent person to protect lives or gather information is hardly torture and it is justifiable.
     
freakboy2
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May 20, 2004, 03:22 PM
 
Originally posted by dcolton:
Who is justifying torture? Naked prisoners, bah - not a big deal to me. Beating prisoners...bad. Killing prisoners...murder. Raping prisoners...rape. The guilty soldiers will be held accountable for their actions.

The thing is, no one is brought up on chargers for murder or rape. IMO, it is still a rumor. You see, I am American...I don't blindly take the word of our enemies as absolute truth, especially when the evidence is circumstantial at the least.

As for the dead prisoners in ice...Does that mean American soldiers killed him? NOPE. It could mean the person died, and they put the body on ice until it can be removed. So the guy could have died of a heart attack or could have been killed by another prisoner.

As for forcing prisoners to masturbate...come on. How can you force someone to become sexually stimulated long enough to ejaculate while others are watching. And if you think muslims don't masturbate...you need to get a clue.

A better question, who is ignoring the atrocities of the killer muslims? (That would be you and your comrades).
ok, i put a gun to your head and say "masturbate or you die".

btw - it's not exactly our enemies that are bringing up these charges. It's our own army. Go read the army's own reports on what happened there. It's not like we were busted by al-quaeda. The red cross is not exactly a terrorist group (although since they are "red" they might be commies!).

The dead man had a very distinctive hole in the side of his temple. It could be a coincidence, like he fell down the stairs and died and that's why the soldier was so happy.

I agree on one thing. Lets see what comes out at trial.

fb2
     
gatekeeper
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May 20, 2004, 03:32 PM
 
Originally posted by dcolton:
You see, I am American...I don't blindly take the word of our enemies as absolute truth, especially when the evidence is circumstantial at the least.
US politicians 'revolted' by images of abuse
US lawmakers expressed revulsion today after viewing more images of Iraqi prisoners being abused by US troops, including inmates apparently being coerced to commit sodomy.

Other images showed prisoners with wounds consistent with dog bites, and various examples of torture and sexual humiliation.

There were also images of dead bodies.
Abu Ghraib abuse included forced sex
�I don�t know how the hell these people got into our army,� said U.S. Sen. Ben Nighthorse Campbell, R-Colo., after viewing what he called a fraction of the images.

�I saw cruel, sadistic torture,� said U.S. Rep. Jane Harman, D-Calif., who said some of the images were of male prisoners masturbating. She said she saw a man hitting himself against a wall as though to knock himself unconscious.

Others said they saw images of corpses, military dogs snarling at cowering prisoners, women commanded to expose their breasts and sex acts, including forced homosexual sex.

�There were people who were forced to have sex with each other,� said U.S. Rep. Gary Ackerman, D-N.Y.

U.S. Rep. Trent Franks, R-Ariz., said, �There were some pictures where it looked like a prisoner was sodomizing himself� with an object. He said blood was visible in the photograph.
     
TheMosco
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May 20, 2004, 03:44 PM
 
Originally posted by dcolton:
Detaining a suspiciously innocent person to protect lives or gather information is hardly torture and it is justifiable.
suspiciously innocent? Guess where the red cross got that 70 to 90 percent number? Coalition intelligence officers. The same exact people interrogating those that were captured are the ones saying that 70 to 90 percent of these people were arrested by mistake.

Do you know how the army gets its intelligence? People come forward with evidence. Its been a huge problem where many people coming forward are turning people in that are guilty of nothing except for the fact they come from a "rival family".

You ask who is justifying torture? Look up at your friend mr spacefreak, who is probably the person on this board who has the most trouble putting party issues aside. Sounds to me like he said this is war and anything goes. Like I said, 70 to 90 percent of prisoners are innocent with allegations of serious abuse occurring in atleast 10 different prisoners in iraq.

freakboy2 said it nicely:

They were designed simply to demean and degrade people who were randomly picked up during security sweeps. It's human degradation at its worst.

We should be the good guys not the less bad guys. TO that you said, "Nice guys finish last" but have you learned anything from world history?

When has fighting terror with more terror worked? It certainly hasn't worked for isreal. You think we would be able to look at their situation and realize that fighting fire with fire isn't going to work. I am not trying to justify the actions of terrorists because when they target innocent civilians its disgusting and sickening. The you shouldn't give them more fuel to recruit more people who are willing to die because undermines your whole goal of stopping terrorism.
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itai195
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May 20, 2004, 04:13 PM
 
Originally posted by dcolton:
"Nice guys finish last"
"Bad guys don't necessarily finish first"
     
freakboy2
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May 20, 2004, 04:16 PM
 
Originally posted by itai195:
"Bad guys don't necessarily finish first"
yeah usually "nice guys finish last" is in reference to trying to get laid.

If we want our country to get f*cked then I think we should follow this advice and be the bad guys.
     
dcolton
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May 20, 2004, 04:24 PM
 
Originally posted by TheMosco:
suspiciously innocent? Guess where the red cross got that 70 to 90 percent number? Coalition intelligence officers. The same exact people interrogating those that were captured are the ones saying that 70 to 90 percent of these people were arrested by mistake.


Yes, suspiciously innocent.

Do you know how the army gets its intelligence? People come forward with evidence. Its been a huge problem where many people coming forward are turning people in that are guilty of nothing except for the fact they come from a "rival family".
And this is the Coalition's fault how?

You ask who is justifying torture? Look up at your friend mr spacefreak, who is probably the person on this board who has the most trouble putting party issues aside. Sounds to me like he said this is war and anything goes. Like I said, 70 to 90 percent of prisoners are innocent with allegations of serious abuse occurring in atleast 10 different prisoners in iraq.
I have the utmost respect for spacefreak. Serious abuse to at least 10 different prisoners, huh. I would say that is a low number considering the number of enemy combatants that have been imprisoned. I am not justifying illegal acts because it is a low number, but I am saying that you would think every prisoner was beaten, raped, and severely tortured the way you, your comrades, and the media portray it. Let the opposition have a fraction of the number of prisoners...then you would see some torture.

freakboy2 said it nicely:

We should be the good guys not the less bad guys. TO that you said, "Nice guys finish last" but have you learned anything from world history?

When has fighting terror with more terror worked? It certainly hasn't worked for isreal. You think we would be able to look at their situation and realize that fighting fire with fire isn't going to work. I am not trying to justify the actions of terrorists because when they target innocent civilians its disgusting and sickening. The you shouldn't give them more fuel to recruit more people who are willing to die because undermines your whole goal of stopping terrorism.
I would say it has worked for Israel. They have fended off terrorist attacks, mobs, and foreign invasion. In essence, it hasn't worked for the terrorists. They are simply killing themselves, getting their fellow 'skewed' muslim killed, and they are getting innocent Palestinian women and children killed. The blood isn't on the hands of a nation trying to defend herself from thugs, the Palestinian blood is clearly on the hands of the terrorists.

Terrorism isn't going to stop by turning the other cheek. As a matter of fact, it would increase. We did nothing about the USS Cole...more attacks occurred until eventually the 'skewed' Muslims attacked the US on the grandest scale.

Quit letting terrorists and their sympathizers manipulate you. You are on their 'hitlist; too. Never forget that. While you want to show compassion for these killers, they are plotting to kill you and your entire family in the name of Allah over some silly thought that they should rule the world with their version of Islam.
     
TheMosco
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May 20, 2004, 04:38 PM
 
Originally posted by dcolton:
Yes, suspiciously innocent.


And this is the Coalition's fault how?


I have the utmost respect for spacefreak. Serious abuse to at least 10 different prisoners, huh. I would say that is a low number considering the number of enemy combatants that have been imprisoned. I am not justifying illegal acts because it is a low number, but I am saying that you would think every prisoner was beaten, raped, and severely tortured the way you, your comrades, and the media portray it. Let the opposition have a fraction of the number of prisoners...then you would see some torture.



I would say it has worked for Israel. They have fended off terrorist attacks, mobs, and foreign invasion. In essence, it hasn't worked for the terrorists. They are simply killing themselves, getting their fellow 'skewed' muslim killed, and they are getting innocent Palestinian women and children killed. The blood isn't on the hands of a nation trying to defend herself from thugs, the Palestinian blood is clearly on the hands of the terrorists.

Terrorism isn't going to stop by turning the other cheek. As a matter of fact, it would increase. We did nothing about the USS Cole...more attacks occurred until eventually the 'skewed' Muslims attacked the US on the grandest scale.

Quit letting terrorists and their sympathizers manipulate you. You are on their 'hitlist; too. Never forget that. While you want to show compassion for these killers, they are plotting to kill you and your entire family in the name of Allah over some silly thought that they should rule the world with their version of Islam.
I meant at least to type at least 10 different prisons, not prisoners. sorry.. And when did i say every prisoner is getting tortured? I don't think I did. The problem is, no prisoner should be tortured because that undermines the things that we stand for. Even those in the administration agree that this has set us back.

And you really think it has worked for isreal? It seems to me that the way they have been fighting the terrorists hasn't exactly been working to their advantage. You think going into cities and tearing down houses of innocent people to catch those are not innocent is really going to stop terrorism? How long has isreal been fighting terrorism? Its been a long time and its still happening. You would think if their methods were working it might stop, but it doesn't appear that way.

I am letting terrorists manipulate me and I am not saying we shouldn't go after terrorists. I never said that. I said we shouldn't give them ammunition for recruiting.

Should we hunt down terrorists and take them out? yes! Should we torture iraqis and take video and picture footage of it so that it gets onto the internet and creates more terrorists? No! If you think that people are arguing that we should turn our cheeks are try to appease the terrorist you are just as crazy as they are. There is a difference between turning your cheek and acting intelligently.
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daimoni
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May 21, 2004, 12:29 PM
 
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( Last edited by daimoni; Sep 12, 2004 at 12:59 AM. )
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Xeo
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May 21, 2004, 06:52 PM
 
There is no reason to torture someone, ever. Setting aside everything else about the war, at the very, very least I expect our army to act like adults, not like stupid high schoolers. We don't treat criminals in the U.S. like that. Why should we treat POWs any differently? We, as a society, are better than that. Our military should follow that example. What they have done is not The American Way™.
     
dcolton
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Jun 14, 2004, 12:17 AM
 
My name is Angq0k. I have nothing better to do than look for anti-American news and post it on MacNN so I can feel good about being a canuck
     
TheMosco
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Jun 14, 2004, 01:10 AM
 
My name is dcolton. The Us has never done anything wrong. Anyone that says they have are lairs and they are unpatriotic. And even if the US did do something wrong, its not as bad as the other guys, so it doesn't count. I refuse to believe any sources that aren't written by conservatives because everyone else is a liar. It doesn't matter that our government has tarnished our good name and great values that our countries stand for, as long as the gays don't get married. I think I am always right and refuse to listen to reason. I don't really love my country, because if I did, I wouldn't let myself be led blindly and i wouldn't disregard any criticism because I didn't like what it said.
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BlackGriffen
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Jun 14, 2004, 01:30 AM
 
Originally posted by spacefreak:
The only ones portraying this as "worrying" are those on the far left. Everyone else realizes that we are in a war where that must be won.
You're a fool. In WWII, the most no holds barred war in history (right up there with WWI), we didn't bomb Kyoto because we knew it would fuel the Japanese fighting spirit and prolong the war.

Always keep in mind that the goal of any war is to eliminate the one's adversary's will to fight. Whether that means killing the adversary, or taking away their motivation, that is always prime objective number one.

9/11 was a massive blunder because it just pissed us off.

So, too, is using torture, because it will just piss them off, and yield no reliable intelligence besides.

So, forget humanitarian concerns, and think of your own @ss. Making enemies is a good thing if your goal is to get attacked. If your goal is to win, eliminate the enemies by any and every means possible (especially peaceful ones that could leave you with a future ally).

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Jun 14, 2004, 09:32 AM
 
Originally posted by TheMosco:
My name is dcolton. The Us has never done anything wrong. Anyone that says they have are lairs and they are unpatriotic. And even if the US did do something wrong, its not as bad as the other guys, so it doesn't count. I refuse to believe any sources that aren't written by conservatives because everyone else is a liar. It doesn't matter that our government has tarnished our good name and great values that our countries stand for, as long as the gays don't get married. I think I am always right and refuse to listen to reason. I don't really love my country, because if I did, I wouldn't let myself be led blindly and i wouldn't disregard any criticism because I didn't like what it said.
     
macvillage.net
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Jun 14, 2004, 09:35 AM
 
Originally posted by Xeo:
There is no reason to torture someone, ever. Setting aside everything else about the war, at the very, very least I expect our army to act like adults, not like stupid high schoolers. We don't treat criminals in the U.S. like that. Why should we treat POWs any differently? We, as a society, are better than that. Our military should follow that example. What they have done is not The American Way™.
Doesn't happen to criminals in the US? There are many who have been in prison who feel abuse by guards is way out of hand. And quite a bit of research hinting that way too. Eventually that will break, following some high profile case.

Remember when President Bush jokingly said this was partially for humanitarian reasons?
     
Millennium
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Jun 14, 2004, 10:22 AM
 
Originally posted by TheMosco:
My name is dcolton. The Us has never done anything wrong. Anyone that says they have are lairs and they are unpatriotic. And even if the US did do something wrong, its not as bad as the other guys, so it doesn't count. I refuse to believe any sources that aren't written by conservatives because everyone else is a liar. It doesn't matter that our government has tarnished our good name and great values that our countries stand for, as long as the gays don't get married. I think I am always right and refuse to listen to reason. I don't really love my country, because if I did, I wouldn't let myself be led blindly and i wouldn't disregard any criticism because I didn't like what it said.
Impressive response, but you don't need to stoop to his level. This last act of dcolton's has gotten the attention of the admins; I suggest that no one else here try to imitate his little stunt, even in retaliation, lest you get sucked into it.
You are in Soviet Russia. It is dark. Grue is likely to be eaten by YOU!
     
dcolton
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Jun 14, 2004, 10:28 AM
 
Originally posted by Millennium:
Impressive response, but you don't need to stoop to his level. This last act of dcolton's has gotten the attention of the admins; I suggest that no one else here try to imitate his little stunt, even in retaliation, lest you get sucked into it.
The difference, I provided proof of angoc0q's relenteless anti-US threads.
     
dcolton
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Jun 14, 2004, 10:37 AM
 
Stop the hate. Sign the petition:

http://www.petitiononline.com/uses33/petition.html
     
Myrkridia
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Jun 17, 2004, 05:18 AM
 
Originally posted by daimoni:
This, my friends, is the sort of attitude that demonstrates how easy it is for a few people to hijack and destroy everything that's important about the American way of life. And I'm not talking about 9/11.

spacefreak may be celebrating... but I remember a time when we were the good guys.

Now we have proven ourselves to be no better than the villains we used to fight against.
Yeah I remember how we would complain how other countries conducted themselves in
"combat/war situations" and constantly hide behind the all-mighty Geneva Convention.
Now apparently it's subject to interpretation.

It amazes me what kind of acts human beings are capable of exacting on one another
out of sheer boredom.
     
ebuddy
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Jun 17, 2004, 07:26 AM
 
I agree that the acts of torture in Abu Ghraib are disgusting and I'm personally glad something will be done about it, but there's good news too and proof that Americans are still the good guys;

An American soldier blew the whistle on all this. This had to have taken big onions.

American free press published the attrocities ( as critical of American actions as anyone) and Americans were enraged.

Many American public officials have shown outrage, disgust, and humiliation regarding the actions of the minority of our "military" in Iraq. Those who chose to see us as we are, will notice that we do care and are actively pursuing a resolve, on our own. Those who do NOT want to see Americans as we are, will continue to suggest that this torture is the norm and not the exception.

In many respects, this is just another horrible example of the consequences of war and how the human will react to the stresses of it when not adequately prepared mentally. Heads will roll for this, mark my words. This is not the first time Americans have conducted human injustices, nor any of you no matter where you're from. What separates the good guys from bad is how we handle the learning experience to avoid same from ever happening again!
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