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About Justice in America
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angaq0k
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May 24, 2004, 11:01 AM
 
Prison sucks

South Africa under Apartheid was internationally condemned as a racist society.

South Africa under apartheid (1993), Black adult men: 851 per 100,000

U.S. under George Bush (2002), Black adult men: 7,150 per 100,000

What does it mean that the leader of the "free world" locks up its Black men at a rate 8.4 times higher than the most openly racist country in the world?
"******* politics is for the ******* moment. ******** equations are for ******** Eternity." ******** Albert Einstein
     
chabig
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May 24, 2004, 11:31 AM
 
What does it mean that the leader of the "free world" locks up its Black men at a rate 8.4 times higher than the most openly racist country in the world?
Hmmm...that 7150 black men out of every 100,000 have been caught breaking the law? Furthermore, Bush didn't lock them up. The number of people in prison has nothing to do with who is sitting in the oval office.
     
dcolton
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May 24, 2004, 11:45 AM
 
Originally posted by angaq0k:
Prison sucks
Wow, something different than war and Israel!

Although blacks are incarcerated disproportionately, I don't think it is neccesarily a sign of institutionalized racism. Now, I am not saying that racism doesn't exist...but overall, I would say that American society has come an extremely long way in a single generation when it comes to racism.

I think, much of the disproportionate amount of blacks in prison has to do with the 'have' and have nots'. You would be amazed at what a good lawyer can accomplish when it comes to jail time. Either way, I guess my opinion is that jailtime is related more to economic status than racism. As we continue to progress as a nation, the numbers will even out.
     
Saad
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May 24, 2004, 12:05 PM
 
Although blacks are incarcerated disproportionately, I don't think it is neccesarily a sign of institutionalized racism. Now, I am not saying that racism doesn't exist...but overall, I would say that American society has come an extremely long way in a single generation when it comes to racism.

I think, much of the disproportionate amount of blacks in prison has to do with the 'have' and have nots'. You would be amazed at what a good lawyer can accomplish when it comes to jail time. Either way, I guess my opinion is that jailtime is related more to economic status than racism. As we continue to progress as a nation, the numbers will even out.
It is tiring when liberals moan and whine about racism. You're right, there is very little racism in the justice system, there is 'bias' against poor people, as they are forced to use the services of overworked public defenders.
     
angaq0k  (op)
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May 24, 2004, 12:56 PM
 
http://www.prisonsucks.com/

Look at just the males by race, and the incarceration rates become even more frightening, June 30, 2002:

White males: 649 per 100,000

Hispanic males: 1,740 per 100,000

Black males: 4,810 per 100,000

If you look at males aged 25-29 and by race, you can see what is going on even clearer, June 30, 2002:

For White males ages 25-29: 1,615 per 100,000.

For Latino males ages 25-29: 4,339 per 100,000.

For Black males ages 25-29: 12,877 per 100,000. (That's 12.9% of Black men in their late 20s.)
"******* politics is for the ******* moment. ******** equations are for ******** Eternity." ******** Albert Einstein
     
angaq0k  (op)
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May 24, 2004, 12:57 PM
 
Originally posted by Saad:
It is tiring when liberals moan and whine about racism. You're right, there is very little racism in the justice system, there is 'bias' against poor people, as they are forced to use the services of overworked public defenders.
Care to bring some data and sources?
"******* politics is for the ******* moment. ******** equations are for ******** Eternity." ******** Albert Einstein
     
dcolton
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May 24, 2004, 01:00 PM
 
Originally posted by angaq0k:
http://www.prisonsucks.com/
WTF is your point? America bashing again? Trying to justify terrorism because of racism now? What are you trying to prove?
     
angaq0k  (op)
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May 24, 2004, 01:07 PM
 
Originally posted by dcolton:
WTF is your point? America bashing again? Trying to justify terrorism because of racism now? What are you trying to prove?
This morning, I heard on the radio that 1 in 37 American was or is in prison.

I could not believe that statistic as it seemed so unrealistic to me. So I did some research, got that website, and linked it here.

I don't see it as America bashing. I am exposing facts I found and submit it for discussion. You are free to agree or not, but if you are to discuss this, you should at least bring a few facts for reference and sources.

If you want to accuse me of "America bashing", that's your right of course, but that makes for poor discussion.

My point as not been made as I did not provide my opinion on this issue at all. I merely quoted the authors of the website.

You don't like it? Then complain to the authors of the study. You want to get some credit with a solid opinion? Then do your homework.
"******* politics is for the ******* moment. ******** equations are for ******** Eternity." ******** Albert Einstein
     
dcolton
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May 24, 2004, 01:16 PM
 
Originally posted by angaq0k:
This morning, I heard on the radio that 1 in 37 American was or is in prison.

I could not believe that statistic as it seemed so unrealistic to me. So I did some research, got that website, and linked it here.

I don't see it as America bashing. I am exposing facts I found and submit it for discussion. You are free to agree or not, but if you are to discuss this, you should at least bring a few facts for reference and sources.

If you want to accuse me of "America bashing", that's your right of course, but that makes for poor discussion.

My point as not been made as I did not provide my opinion on this issue at all. I merely quoted the authors of the website.

You don't like it? Then complain to the authors of the study. You want to get some credit with a solid opinion? Then do your homework.
No one is disagreeing with your stats. Every American is acutely aware of this situation. Nonetheless...you are America bashing because every thread you introduce and every statement you make is anti-American and anti-Bush. In addition, you weren't looking for any understanding or explanation...you just spit out some numbers then spit out some more numbers when people responded to your flame bait.

And you did provide an opinion:

[quote]What does it mean that the leader of the "free world" locks up its Black men at a rate 8.4 times higher than the most openly racist country in the world?/[quote]
     
Millennium
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May 24, 2004, 01:33 PM
 
I do not dispute these numbers, but I would like to see more numbers Prison is only the end of the path; we should be looking earlier.

Broken down by race and gender, this site shows only one statistic: the number of persons in prison compared to the general population. Here are some numbers I'd like to see (broken down by race and gender once again):

- Number of persons against whom search warrants are issued
- Number of persons against whom arrest warrants are issued
- Number of persons actually arrested
- Average bail amounts for specific charges (murder, armed robbery, possession of marijuana, and so forth; these three should yield particularly interesting statistics).
- Proportion of convictions for specific charges
- Average sentence length for specific charges

...and so on, and so forth. My point is that this site is not by any means painting the whole picture. Is there racism in the system? Maybe (though I suspect it not in the institutions themselves, but the people in power, who need to be more carefully screened). But the numbers given on this site are not enough to draw any kind of valid conclusion.
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angaq0k  (op)
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May 24, 2004, 01:34 PM
 
Originally posted by dcolton:
No one is disagreeing with your stats. Every American is acutely aware of this situation. Nonetheless...you are America bashing because every thread you introduce and every statement you make is anti-American and anti-Bush. In addition, you weren't looking for any understanding or explanation...you just spit out some numbers then spit out some more numbers when people responded to your flame bait.
I did not spat, I quoted.

You say it is anti-american. I did not.

You say it is anti-Bush. That's what the website says.

[quote]
And you did provide an opinion:

[quote]What does it mean that the leader of the "free world" locks up its Black men at a rate 8.4 times higher than the most openly racist country in the world?/
Verify the website. The quote is straight from there.

The problem does not come from my position, since the website IS American. The problem comes from your need to identify fully with all that represents America the way you think it is, which has to be good.

Yet, I present you facts, and all you do is accuse me of America bashing.

You accuse me of being anti-american because I quote an American website that studies the topic of prisons in America. One argument provided against the first quote is that it has nothing to do with racism, but rather, economical status. Then, I wonder, how come black people are in such a difficult economical position? Is it because of racism? I don't know, and my research gave me nothing so far on that topic.

But you have not provided any data to contradicty the facts exposed, and so far, have not provided any facts or data related to your position. As I wrote before, that makes for poor discussion. Your failure to provide data to argue with me slid into insults rather than rational exchange.

Your usual position, dcolton, is that you are right, but you fail to sustain it with anything solid.

I have been proved wrong before in these threads, and I did recognize it, sometimes even apologized. I learned to get stronger sources for fear of not being able to argue appropriately, or being proven wrong.

Yet, if you were curious enough, you would see that the website in question is full of interesting and challenging texts around the various policies behind the financing of prisons in rural areas. Actually, although the crime rate has decreased, the building of prisons has increased and finances rural areas, as well has play a role in censing.

You could find this interesting to read.
"******* politics is for the ******* moment. ******** equations are for ******** Eternity." ******** Albert Einstein
     
Spliffdaddy
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May 24, 2004, 01:42 PM
 
I'm thinking that the true problem is single parent households.

The biggest distinction you see between convicts and 'free' citizens is the fact that a majority of the convicts were raised by one parent.

Having one parent instead of two seems to work in lockstep with whether or not the child's education will be satisfactory or not.

Lack of education means fewer opportunities in the job market.

Lack of opportunity breeds desperation and the creation of opportunity where none existed, sometimes known as 'crime' - but not always.

The fact that a disproportionate amount of blacks are incarcerated should mean a disproportionate amount of blacks are raised in single parent households, as well...and they are.
     
angaq0k  (op)
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May 24, 2004, 01:50 PM
 
Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
I'm thinking that the true problem is single parent households.

The biggest distinction you see between convicts and 'free' citizens is the fact that a majority of the convicts were raised by one parent.

Having one parent instead of two seems to work in lockstep with whether or not the child's education will be satisfactory or not.

Lack of education means fewer opportunities in the job market.

Lack of opportunity breeds desperation and the creation of opportunity where none existed, sometimes known as 'crime' - but not always.

The fact that a disproportionate amount of blacks are incarcerated should mean a disproportionate amount of blacks are raised in single parent households, as well...and they are.
Although I do not have sources for this, I believe your rationale makes a lot of sense. I remember having something related to that sometimes.

Here are a few stats:

Families of Prisoners:

Number of prisoners with minor children, 1999: 642,300

Number of minor children with parents in prison, 1999: 1,324,900

Increase between 1991 and 1999 in the number of minor children with a parent in prison: 472,600

Percent of male state prisoners with minor children, 1997: 54.7%

Percent of female state prisoners with minor children, 1997: 65.3%

Percent of female state prisoners with minor children reporting monthly visits from their children, 1997: 23.8%

Average sentence for parents in state prison, in months: 80

Average sentence for parents in federal prison, in months: 103

Percent of state prisoner parents incarcerated 100-500 miles from their last place of residence: 51.2%

Percent of federal prisoner parents incarcerated more than 100 miles from their last place of residence: 84.0%
It does not discriminate according to "race" though. Possibly there is proportionality?
"******* politics is for the ******* moment. ******** equations are for ******** Eternity." ******** Albert Einstein
     
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May 24, 2004, 02:05 PM
 
I think if you look at prison stats broken down by economic class, you'd likely see a much more significant correlation between poverty and incarceration rates than you're seeing with race. I'm always hesitant to believe an argument from someone who only cites stats on race.
     
angaq0k  (op)
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May 24, 2004, 02:07 PM
 
Originally posted by itai195:
I think if you look at prison stats broken down by economic class, you'd likely see a much more significant correlation between poverty and incarceration rates than you're seeing with race. I'm always hesitant to believe an argument from someone who only cites stats on race.
Do you have such stats? That would be interesting!
"******* politics is for the ******* moment. ******** equations are for ******** Eternity." ******** Albert Einstein
     
angaq0k  (op)
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May 24, 2004, 02:12 PM
 
illiteracy

The graph on that page shows that 4% of the adult population shows "Complete Illiteracy" while close to 19% of prisoners show in that category
"******* politics is for the ******* moment. ******** equations are for ******** Eternity." ******** Albert Einstein
     
dcolton
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May 24, 2004, 02:15 PM
 
Originally posted by angaq0k:
Verify the website. The quote is straight from there.

The problem does not come from my position, since the website IS American. The problem comes from your need to identify fully with all that represents America the way you think it is, which has to be good.

Yet, I present you facts, and all you do is accuse me of America bashing.

You accuse me of being anti-american because I quote an American website that studies the topic of prisons in America. One argument provided against the first quote is that it has nothing to do with racism, but rather, economical status. Then, I wonder, how come black people are in such a difficult economical position? Is it because of racism? I don't know, and my research gave me nothing so far on that topic.

But you have not provided any data to contradicty the facts exposed, and so far, have not provided any facts or data related to your position. As I wrote before, that makes for poor discussion. Your failure to provide data to argue with me slid into insults rather than rational exchange.

Your usual position, dcolton, is that you are right, but you fail to sustain it with anything solid.

I have been proved wrong before in these threads, and I did recognize it, sometimes even apologized. I learned to get stronger sources for fear of not being able to argue appropriately, or being proven wrong.

Yet, if you were curious enough, you would see that the website in question is full of interesting and challenging texts around the various policies behind the financing of prisons in rural areas. Actually, although the crime rate has decreased, the building of prisons has increased and finances rural areas, as well has play a role in censing.

You could find this interesting to read.
Who said I didn't read it? As I stated...no one is refuting your findings. Americans are acutely aware of the situation. For the AngaqOk impaired...that means I am not refuting the stats or the assesment...I am simply questioning your motive - as you have set a precedent as to your position on the United States and our policies. This is just another issue you were able to dig up in order to demonize my country.

SO ONCE AGAIN...I AM NOT DISPUTING YOUR FACTS! I SIMPLY FIND YOUR MOTIVES TO BE SUSPECT!

BOT:

I agree with the single family household theory as well...

But I think we also have to consider that we are still not far beyond the civil rights generation. In other words...we are looking at only 40 years true freedom for blacks. That is less than a generation. So as I see it, we are doing damn well to come as far as we have in race relations, economic gaps, educational gaps, and attitudes in less than a generation.
     
itai195
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May 24, 2004, 02:40 PM
 
Originally posted by angaq0k:
Do you have such stats? That would be interesting!
Nope, I just think that this topic is more complex than simply throwing out statistics. There are a variety of books and detailed studies out there.
     
dcolton
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May 24, 2004, 03:22 PM
 
Originally posted by itai195:
Nope, I just think that this topic is more complex than simply throwing out statistics. There are a variety of books and detailed studies out there.
Exactly.
     
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May 24, 2004, 03:59 PM
 
Originally posted by Saad:
It is tiring when liberals moan and whine about racism. You're right, there is very little racism in the justice system, there is 'bias' against poor people, as they are forced to use the services of overworked public defenders.
Bingo! We have a winner. Justice is usually blind and the poor are usually the ones to get the least service in the judicial system.

So, this gives us two suppositions to chew on.
A) Are blacks disproportionately among the poor in this country?
B) If so, why? (and might the answer to this question be a more likely place to look for racism?)
One should never stop striving for clarity of thought and precision of expression.
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angaq0k  (op)
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May 24, 2004, 04:38 PM
 
"migrations to prison"
What New York has done in recent decades is incarcerate an increasing number of its Black, Latino and Indigenous citizens. Minorities account for 87.6% of the growth in New York's prison population since 1970. Within the shorter period of 1985 - 1997, the figure was 90%, higher than any other state. Whites make up 16% of New York prisons, Blacks 51% and Latinos 31%.

Since 1930, the odds of being sent to prison in New York State for a white person in a given year has actually fallen slightly, but the odds of a Black person being sent to prison in a given year has risen more than 250%. In 1930, the Black-white disparity in prison commitment rates was offensive at 4.1 times higher for Blacks. In 2000, that disparity has risen to the level of a democratic calamity with Blacks being 11.1 times more likely to be sent to prison in a given year than whites.

When you take into account the difference based on different sentence lengths between the numbers of people sent to prison and those who are actually in prison at in given time, you see an even greater racial disparity. By comparing the raw numbers of prisoners to their respective populations we can determine the rate by which people of a given racial group are in prison. Ninety seven out of every 100,000 white New Yorkers is currently in prison. For Latinos, it's 776, and for Blacks the figure is 1,295 per 100,000. That's a Black-White disparity of 13.4 times.
Seems that the need to develop new industries:
While incarceration has devastated Black and Latino New York City residents, it has led to a tremendous boon for white rural areas. In New York State, 38 new prisons have been built since 1982, all upstate. The decline of manufacturing jobs and the difficulties faced by small farmers has led to a new rural industry: the warehousing of urban residents.
And it is lucrative.

Nationally, speaking, prisons have become a growth industry for rural America, with a new prison opening in a small town every 15 days over the last decade. Now a $49 billion industry, prisons have developed the economic muscle to bend state priorities to its needs rather than the other way around. The practice of transferring the political clout of prisoners from their communities to the prison town removes the most important counter-balance to the growing economic clout of the crime control industry: the democratic power of the populace.
"******* politics is for the ******* moment. ******** equations are for ******** Eternity." ******** Albert Einstein
     
angaq0k  (op)
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May 24, 2004, 04:44 PM
 
Why are so many Native Hawaiians incarcerated in Minnesota?

Posted on May 10, 2004

The Bureau of Justice Statistics provides incarceration rate data for Latinos, non-Latino Whites, and non-Latino Blacks, but it does not provide this data for other groups. For another Prison Policy Initiative project, we tried to use the Census 2000 data to fill in this gap for every state in the country, but the results were not what we expected, and one finding was so shocking that we had to investigate further.

According to Census 2000 data, Minnesota appears to incarcerate Native Hawaiians and Pacific Islanders at a rate 45.8 times higher than it incarcerates White people. By Bureau of Justice Statistics figures, Minnesota has the 4th highest racial disparity between Black and White incarceration rates, incarcerating Blacks at a rate almost 13 times as frequently as Whites.

Why would Native Hawaiians in Minnesota be treated so harshly? Could it even be true that the Minnesota has incarcerated 1 out of every 10 Native Hawaiian and Pacific Islanders in the state?

We dug further into the data. The Native Hawaiian and Pacific Islander population in question is definitely incarcerated within Minnesota, but not by the state of Minnesota. Almost all of the Native Hawaiians and Pacific Islanders incarcerated in Minnesota can be found in Swift County where the Corrections Corporation of America operates a private prison under contract with the state of Hawaii.

Relying on a counting method developed 2 centuries ago, Census Bureau counts prisoners as if they were residents of the state and town that contains the prison. This denies the home region a true count of its population and boosts the prison state's numbers. Whether it makes good criminological sense to incarcerate people 4,000 miles from their families is a hot topic in Hawaii and the other states that contract out confinement.

What should not be controversial is recognizing that counting out-of-state prisoners as if they were residents of the prison town frustrates the ability of state and federal governments fairly divide legislative districts and resources. People need to be counted at their homes not at arbitrary temporary locations. This Census methodology might have made sense in 1790, but it is outdated now.

In the next Census in 2010, the Census Bureau should do the right thing and count the incarcerated at their homes and not at arbitrary prison addresses.

Source: U.S. Census 2000; Prison Policy Initiative State incarceration rates by race, 2001
This is a state of affair I have a lot of difficulty to understand.
"******* politics is for the ******* moment. ******** equations are for ******** Eternity." ******** Albert Einstein
     
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May 24, 2004, 04:50 PM
 
Originally posted by Saad:
It is tiring when liberals moan and whine about racism. You're right, there is very little racism in the justice system, there is 'bias' against poor people, as they are forced to use the services of overworked public defenders.
Bingo! We have a winner. Justice is usually blind and the poor are usually the ones to get the least service in the judicial system.

So, this gives us two suppositions to chew on.
A) Are blacks disproportionately among the poor in this country?
B) If so, why? (and might the answer to this question be a more likely place to look for racism?)
One should never stop striving for clarity of thought and precision of expression.
I would prefer my humanity sullied with the tarnish of science rather than the gloss of religion.
     
angaq0k  (op)
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May 24, 2004, 04:56 PM
 
here is a link with a pdf for the U.S. comparing African-American with White, non-Hispanic, socio-economic data, from www.FairData2000.com
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May 24, 2004, 05:54 PM
 
Did the site you quote have an statistics about how many black South Africans never made it into the justice system during the apartheid years because they were just summarily executed, or just disappeared? I'm no expert on South Africa's history, but I think it's pretty commonly known that that they white government did some pretty horrendous things to the black population, and I think there was probably a good share of blacks that would have preferred to go to prison than the alternatives offered.
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angaq0k  (op)
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May 24, 2004, 06:21 PM
 
Originally posted by ThinkInsane:
Did the site you quote have an statistics about how many black South Africans never made it into the justice system during the apartheid years because they were just summarily executed, or just disappeared? I'm no expert on South Africa's history, but I think it's pretty commonly known that that they white government did some pretty horrendous things to the black population, and I think there was probably a good share of blacks that would have preferred to go to prison than the alternatives offered.
About your question, I have not seen such statistics, although there are some stats comparing countries in regard of enprisonment.

Of course, you are welcome to go check...

Americans Behind Bars: The International Use of Incarceration

Although this document is dated (on populations of '92-'93), that page is very critical of many comparative studies. Very interesting though; it does cover a lot of ground. It can be seen as a snapshot from the previous decade.
( Last edited by angaq0k; May 24, 2004 at 06:33 PM. )
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May 24, 2004, 10:45 PM
 
angaq0k: You are such a Canadian dick. Why don't you concentrate on the statistic of indigenous peoples genocide in your own country? How about some statistics on indigenous populations out of proportion incarceration in Canada? I'm too tired to reiterate my findings now, I'll leave that to others here to expose the Canadian dick's hypocrisy. Look it up.
     
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May 24, 2004, 10:56 PM
 
Originally posted by Orion27:
angaq0k: You are such a Canadian dick. Why don't you concentrate on the statistic of indigenous peoples genocide in your own country? How about some statistics on indigenous populations out of proportion incarceration in Canada? I'm too tired to reiterate my findings now, I'll leave that to others here to expose the Canadian dick's hypocrisy. Look it up.
http://www.storm.ca/~moparman/globe.htm

Just a sample Canadian racism.
     
Saad
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May 24, 2004, 11:06 PM
 
angaq0k: You are such a Canadian dick. Why don't you concentrate on the statistic of indigenous peoples genocide in your own country? How about some statistics on indigenous populations out of proportion incarceration in Canada? I'm too tired to reiterate my findings now, I'll leave that to others here to expose the Canadian dick's hypocrisy. Look it up.
Your defending the inequities in the US justice system by pointing out those in Canada?
     
angaq0k  (op)
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May 24, 2004, 11:11 PM
 
Originally posted by Orion27:
angaq0k: You are such a Canadian dick. Why don't you concentrate on the statistic of indigenous peoples genocide in your own country? How about some statistics on indigenous populations out of proportion incarceration in Canada? I'm too tired to reiterate my findings now, I'll leave that to others here to expose the Canadian dick's hypocrisy. Look it up.
I am not denying it. I can certainly bring more about racism and genocide in Canada than you could ever be able to bring yourself about the U.S.

Let me remind you also that I have been polite in the course of this thread, and that I have not shared my opinion on this topic yet. So you have no idea what I think.

I simply brought to attention that I thought quite unbelievable something I heard on the radio earlier this morning, that 1 in 37 Americans are or have been in prison, did some research, and posted it here. I still haven't found the source of that stat, which I heard on Air America radio (the show called "Unfiltered").

Hate me for bringing something I brought from an American website? But you cannot hate me for my opinion, because I did not post it.

And by the way, the stats posted here come from the U.S. Department of Justice, Office of Justice Programs. The commentary is from the guys at http://www.prisonsucks.com/
"******* politics is for the ******* moment. ******** equations are for ******** Eternity." ******** Albert Einstein
     
Saad
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May 24, 2004, 11:19 PM
 
I still haven't found the source of that stat, which I heard on Air America radio (the show called "Unfiltered").
I love Air America, especially Randy Rhodes.

About three percent of the black population was in prison during 2001
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/prisons.htm

I would not be surprised if that stat is correct (about %2).
     
Orion27
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May 24, 2004, 11:39 PM
 
Originally posted by Saad:
Your defending the inequities in the US justice system by pointing out those in Canada?
There is no justification for racism. I just think anga0k hates America while tunrning a blind eye towards the injustice in his own back yard. Keeping most of his nation's black population in ghettos in two cities, Montreal and Toronto is not exactly pluralism. Canada is as liliy white as it comes when it comes to race. At least in America, blacks have ascended to power at the highest levels of government. What similar pluralism in government does Canada share?
     
angaq0k  (op)
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May 25, 2004, 06:56 AM
 
Originally posted by Orion27:
There is no justification for racism. I just think anga0k hates America while tunrning a blind eye towards the injustice in his own back yard. Keeping most of his nation's black population in ghettos in two cities, Montreal and Toronto is not exactly pluralism. Canada is as liliy white as it comes when it comes to race. At least in America, blacks have ascended to power at the highest levels of government. What similar pluralism in government does Canada share?
It is interesting that pointing to social inequities in America makes me the hater...
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Saad
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May 25, 2004, 07:08 AM
 
At least in America, blacks have ascended to power at the highest levels of government. What similar pluralism in government does Canada share?
Why do you think the blacks are here? Because much of the population of America was enslaved, there are more blacks in the government.
     
Tokencon
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May 25, 2004, 07:24 AM
 
Originally posted by angaq0k:
Prison sucks
Wow...classic illogic bred of an inability to seperate issues and a demonstration of led-by-the-nose Liberalthink: black men are locked up in (possibly) disproportionate numbers to the population,ergo the Republican president must be a racist redneck cross-burner who wants to send them all back to Africa....ohhhkkkkaaayyyy....

The poster ismissing many, many contributing issues, but of course as a lockstep by-the-Playbook Lib, he/she has no intention of learning about or certainly addressing and logically disposing of those issues to arrive at any sort of rational explanation as to WHY these numbers are so skewed...

It's much easier of Libs to find ANY reason to hate/blame Bush than to look at things rationally. Take Kyoto...it was CLINTON (under the sage tutelage of theworld's number one envrior, AlGore) who did not sign Kyoto, but today, all the enviros are screaming that it's Bush's fault.... Do you suppose the actually KNOW that Kyoto was drafted under Clinton, but like the issue above, want to avoid that dirty little secret because it does not help them to continue their irrational hatred of Bush?

Tokenconservative
     
Saad
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May 25, 2004, 07:34 AM
 
Wow...classic illogic bred of an inability to seperate issues and a demonstration of led-by-the-nose Liberalthink: black men are locked up in (possibly) disproportionate numbers to the population,ergo the Republican president must be a racist redneck cross-burner who wants to send them all back to Africa....ohhhkkkkaaayyyy....
Nobody blamed the inequity in the prison system on the current president.
     
Orion27
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May 25, 2004, 07:42 AM
 
Originally posted by Saad:
Why do you think the blacks are here? Because much of the population of America was enslaved, there are more blacks in the government.
Wake up Saad, your not making any sense this morning. The discussion is the current State of Canadian racism and genocide and that Americans have elected many blacks to positions of power in this country which include running many of our largest cities.
( Last edited by Orion27; May 25, 2004 at 09:46 AM. )
     
dcolton
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May 25, 2004, 09:54 AM
 
Originally posted by Orion27:
angaq0k: You are such a Canadian dick. Why don't you concentrate on the statistic of indigenous peoples genocide in your own country? How about some statistics on indigenous populations out of proportion incarceration in Canada? I'm too tired to reiterate my findings now, I'll leave that to others here to expose the Canadian dick's hypocrisy. Look it up.
As I pointed out earlier, this is angaqOk's way of bashing the US.
     
Millennium
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May 25, 2004, 10:23 AM
 
angaq0k, no one is disagreeing with the numbers you've given. These statistics are, for the most part, very old news here, and I doubt you'll find a single person in the US who would disagree with the rates given here.

However, you have provided a very incomplete set of information. I refer you back to my post about other numbers that I want to see. To take another famous incomplete set of information from US history, you may as well have said "there's gold in them thar hills"; interesting on its own, but utterly useless by itself. Which hills must we dig under to find the gold?

The criminal justice system is a very large entity. Citing the prison statistics only says that there is a problem "somewhere", and that the end result falls along certain lines. It makes no effort whatsoever to find out exactly what the problem is, or where it can be found. I have seen the group you've cited and other groups like it before; they decry problems they see while doing nothing constructive to find the solution. It frankly makes me wonder if they're only seeing what they want to see. Certainly someone in these groups must have looked for more complete information in the past, but if this is so, then why has it never been made public? Perhaps because when the whole set of facts was found, it didn't fit their agenda?

But here's a simpler test. What can be done to fix the racism inherent in the criminal justice system? If you can't even propose an answer to this question, then you don't have enough information about it in the first place, and this is the problem with groups such as these.
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Saad
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May 25, 2004, 10:57 AM
 
Wake up Saad, your not making any sense this morning. The discussion is the current State of Canadian racism and genocide and that Americans have elected many blacks to positions of power in this country which include running many of our largest cities.
A specific example was made, Blacks are better represented in the US than Canada. I ponted out that blacks aren't in Canada, because we did not bring them there.

I agree, Canada has acted in similar, deploreable ways towards the native populations as the Americans. There are natives in the legislatures, alonmg with women and gays. I'd say Canada is far more progressive than the US, based on the demographics of the powerful.
     
Orion27
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May 25, 2004, 11:32 AM
 
Originally posted by Saad:
A specific example was made, Blacks are better represented in the US than Canada. I ponted out that blacks aren't in Canada, because we did not bring them there.

I agree, Canada has acted in similar, deploreable ways towards the native populations as the Americans. There are natives in the legislatures, alonmg with women and gays. I'd say Canada is far more progressive than the US, based on the demographics of the powerful.
You agree, blacks are better represented in America. You agree, Canada acts in deplorable ways. So please, focus your diatribe in another direction.
     
Saad
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May 25, 2004, 11:40 AM
 
You agree, blacks are better represented in America
Minorities are incarcerated at a lower percentage in Canada than the US.

There were more blacks in Mississippi in 1970 than in Minnesota in 1970, does that mean that Mississippi had a more egalitarian race relations than Minnesota?
     
Sherwin
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May 25, 2004, 11:42 AM
 
The prison/free ratios of various ethnic groups will, of course, have nothing to do with the type of culture which the particular group identifies with, will it?



Just look at the pop music charts and check out the number of Asian acts ranting about guns.
     
angaq0k  (op)
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May 25, 2004, 05:18 PM
 
Originally posted by Tokencon:
Wow...classic illogic bred of an inability to seperate issues and a demonstration of led-by-the-nose Liberalthink: black men are locked up in (possibly) disproportionate numbers to the population,ergo the Republican president must be a racist redneck cross-burner who wants to send them all back to Africa....ohhhkkkkaaayyyy....

The poster ismissing many, many contributing issues, but of course as a lockstep by-the-Playbook Lib, he/she has no intention of learning about or certainly addressing and logically disposing of those issues to arrive at any sort of rational explanation as to WHY these numbers are so skewed...

It's much easier of Libs to find ANY reason to hate/blame Bush than to look at things rationally. Take Kyoto...it was CLINTON (under the sage tutelage of theworld's number one envrior, AlGore) who did not sign Kyoto, but today, all the enviros are screaming that it's Bush's fault.... Do you suppose the actually KNOW that Kyoto was drafted under Clinton, but like the issue above, want to avoid that dirty little secret because it does not help them to continue their irrational hatred of Bush?

Tokenconservative
I did not even put the word "Bush" or "President" in any of my posts in this thread. You are speculating on my motive. Whether your President is a "redneck racist" is not something I ever wrote in any of my posts in any thread I posted in Macnn forums.

I simply posted a quote from a website. I did not event posted an opinion as of yet.
"******* politics is for the ******* moment. ******** equations are for ******** Eternity." ******** Albert Einstein
     
angaq0k  (op)
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May 25, 2004, 05:20 PM
 
Originally posted by Orion27:
Wake up Saad, your not making any sense this morning. The discussion is the current State of Canadian racism and genocide and that Americans have elected many blacks to positions of power in this country which include running many of our largest cities.
No. The topic is posted in the first thread.

If you want to talk about this issue regarding Canada, I believe you are free to do so in these threads, and I may participate as well if I feel like so.
"******* politics is for the ******* moment. ******** equations are for ******** Eternity." ******** Albert Einstein
     
itai195
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May 25, 2004, 05:24 PM
 
This thread is basically at a dead-end. angaq -- I guess the approach you took to this thread just didn't work. When you lead off with a quote, people are going to think that's what you believe unless you give your own opinion or explain it. And the quote you led off with is very simplistic and inflammatory. You can't just drop something like that in these forums and not expect a bad reaction.
     
Saad
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May 25, 2004, 05:27 PM
 
Wake up Saad, your not making any sense this morning. The discussion is the current State of Canadian racism and genocide and that Americans have elected many blacks to positions of power in this country which include running many of our largest cities.
To use the black population as a benchmark of tolerance in a society devoid of a large black population is unfair.
     
angaq0k  (op)
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May 25, 2004, 05:53 PM
 
Originally posted by Millennium:
angaq0k, no one is disagreeing with the numbers you've given. These statistics are, for the most part, very old news here, and I doubt you'll find a single person in the US who would disagree with the rates given here.
(...)
But here's a simpler test. What can be done to fix the racism inherent in the criminal justice system? If you can't even propose an answer to this question, then you don't have enough information about it in the first place, and this is the problem with groups such as these.
Thank you for this reply Millenium.

1) I agree with your three first paragraphs; it is difficult to post some informations, especially regarding statistics without having some agenda behind it. As I posted earlier, I got triggered in my search becauise of that strange 1/37 of Americans having been or being in prison. I was so totally surprised with disbelief you have no idea!

And then I wanted to find something to support that number, if there was such a thing. Unfortunately, the rerun from the show will be this Saturday, and I will be on a flight then so I won't be able to listen to it. That was the stat I wanted to bring for discussion. But I found the other one, which I though was just as extraordinary! I do not know how much credit to give to that; it came as a real surprise to me!

The most interesting reactions were from spliffdaddy, which were bound to provide an interesting debate, one I was interested in.

2) Who says the justice system is racist? The opinion from the website I quoted seems to refer to "America being racist". I remember a previous thread, Millenium, where you asked me to prove that racism is done according to an agenda with specific people behind it. Well, I don't believe I could answer that (which I believe I said then). And I am not sure it is realistic to refer to a plot agains black people either. Comparing South Africa and America is an unfair one for sure; 2 different political systems, 2 different histories (even with common elements), 2 very different cultures.

It makes no sense to compare these 2, period.

Yet, the numbers are appalling. ital195 made a good point (socio-economic conditions), but I wish we could have had an exchange on the topic. dcmacdaddy had also an excellent point, which, I believe, reflects partly spliffdaddy's, and the descriptives stats I provided around the socio-economic status from Fairdata.com.

If people could have made some research, instead of bashing me, they would have found the following:

The South African figures are taken from the 1993 report of the South African Prisons Service. The South African categories of "black" and "colored" are combined to produce the black male rate of incarceration. In previous reports, we have attempted to estimate the incarceration rate for the four "independent" homelands that were not recognized by any nation outside South Africa. This estimate was then incorporated into the overall figures for South Africa to derive a rate of incarceration. Since there are no current reliable figures for these homelands for 1993, we have not included them in either the prison data or the overall population data for South Africa. Therefore, the incarceration rates reported here are not entirely comparable to those of past reports. Since the homelands are now officially part of South Africa, we hope that in future reports data will be available for the entire population.
They would have found also that:
An analysis of the causes of this distressing situation is complex. An examination of recent trends, though, points to both social policy factors and criminal justice policies that relate directly to this problem.
One of the key issues facing the nation today is the problem of youth violence, an area in which AfricanAmerican males are overrepresented both as victims and perpetrators. Research in this area by criminologist Delbert Elliott indicates a number of directions in which social policy plays a significant role in producing differential outcomes by race.
Elliott's review of comparative rates of youth violence finds that rates of violence are high overall and that they cut across racial and class lines. Youth selfreport studies show that for 1617 year old males, 2025 percent of the population report having engaged in "serious violent offending," defined as aggravated assault, forcible rape, robbery, and homicide. Racial differences are relatively modest by age 18, the rate of reported violent offending among blacks is only 18 percent higher than for whites.
After the teen years, two trends emerge. First, the vast majority of violent youth cease their involvement within a few years of its onset. Of those youth who were engaged in violent behavior as teens, nearly 80 percent report discontinuing such behavior by their twenties.
For black youth, though, nearly twice as many persist in their violent offending after age 21. The one significant exception to this pattern, though, is among those males who are employed. Within this group, there are no discernible differences by race.
Elliott concludes that the key to reducing adolescent violent behavior lies in enabling these individuals to make a successful transition to the adult roles of work, marriage, and parenting.
I was just trying to create another topic of discussion, that seemed to seep through from some of the media (well Air America anyway, with that strange claim of 1/37).
"******* politics is for the ******* moment. ******** equations are for ******** Eternity." ******** Albert Einstein
     
angaq0k  (op)
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May 25, 2004, 05:55 PM
 
Originally posted by itai195:
This thread is basically at a dead-end. angaq -- I guess the approach you took to this thread just didn't work. When you lead off with a quote, people are going to think that's what you believe unless you give your own opinion or explain it. And the quote you led off with is very simplistic and inflammatory. You can't just drop something like that in these forums and not expect a bad reaction.
I agree with you. Lesson learned (hopefully), and all my apologies for the misunderstanding.
"******* politics is for the ******* moment. ******** equations are for ******** Eternity." ******** Albert Einstein
     
Orion27
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May 25, 2004, 09:53 PM
 
And for future reference, I wouldn't quote anything from Air America either.
     
 
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