[♥]

Facial tumor victim (pics disturbing)

Another link

Video

This is a situation where euthanasia should have been absolutely allowed. I would have wanted to die also.

It should be allowed under certain conditions when it is humane to end extreme suffering. We do it for dogs and cats and I think humans should be allowed to make the choice for themselves also.

I'd like to hear any viable argument as to why this woman should not have been allowed to commit suicide in a humane manner.

(As an aside, I realize that this topic might get moved to the Poli/Sci Lounge.)

Makes you realize that 99.99% of us have no problems at all when confronted with situations such as this. Poor woman, may she rest in peace.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by ♥ 

Poli/Sci Lounge

Last time I checked, we are less civilized.

Hence the name Political/WAR Lounge.

-t

[♥]

Then there you should go when you nicely derail a thread to make another point.

Anyone else?

I hope this case allows for change for those suffering so greatly.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by ♥ 

Then there you should go when you nicely derail a thread to make another point.

Anyone else?

WTF ? PMS much ?

If I wanted to derail this thread, it would look slightly different.

But great that you revealed what you really wanted out of this: confirmation of your opinion. Go get an f***ing blog.

There. NOW you have a derail And you asked for it.

-t

[gradient]

Do you type to your mother with those fingers?

[♥]

turtle whatever your name is, you have a really nice day.

[design219]

That is sad.

If we had assisted suicide, I would like it to be like in that old movie Soilent Green, where you looked at lovely pictures. Of course, the being turned into food afterward would be negative.

[ctt1wbw]

I'm reminded of one of the seven deadly sins... What value do we place on a human life, including our own?

[smacintush]

We live in a country obsessed with "rights".

How the choice to kill oneself isn't considered a right is beyond me.

I want a suicide switch like in Time Enough for Love.

[osiris]

Originally Posted by ctt1wbw 

I'm reminded of one of the seven deadly sins... What value do we place on a human life, including our own?

None, these days.


I second a move to the PL, where such debate belongs.

[Atheist]

Originally Posted by smacintush 

How the choice to kill oneself isn't considered a right is beyond me..

Please elaborate... I don't understand. Every human should be able to end their own life.

[ctt1wbw]

Well, let's say that assisted suicide is legal. Next time someone breaks into my house and I shoot and kill him, I'll tell the judge it was assisted suicide. I just helped him out a bit.

[design219]

Originally Posted by osiris 

I second a move to the PL, where such debate belongs.

No. Most don't go to the PL. I rarely go.

As long as a discussion can remain civil, leave it here where more people can discuss it.

[osiris]

Originally Posted by design219 

No. Most don't go to the PL. I rarely go.

As long as a discussion can remain civil, leave it here where more people can discuss it.

I guess that was my point, sorry.

[peeb]

The issue here is pretty clear, while everyone does have a de-facto right to kill themselves, the issues of potential abuse in assisted suicide are so clear that it is hard to provide a responsible framework to prevent abuse and coercion.

[brassplayersrock²]

why would you post such a thread cody? there are places to and then there are places not to. I'm not talking just about here vs the poli lounge. just stop with these kind of things please. Thanks

[olePigeon]

I think that if there are absolutely no alternatives, euthanasia is acceptable.

[lpkmckenna]

Originally Posted by peeb 

The issue here is pretty clear, while everyone does have a de-facto right to kill themselves, the issues of potential abuse in assisted suicide are so clear that it is hard to provide a responsible framework to prevent abuse and coercion.

Nonsense. You sign a waiver or consent form, just like everything else in life. It's not that hard at all.

[♥]

Well, let's say that assisted suicide is legal. Next time someone breaks into my house and I shoot and kill him, I'll tell the judge it was assisted suicide. I just helped him out a bit.

That should be a bumper sticker, actually.



Hey, I was against assisted suicide until I read this story. Now I'm all for it. Funny how you can change your mind with a little knowledge, eh? I feel so bad for the woman. Just when you think you've got problems...

[peeb]

Originally Posted by lpkmckenna 

Nonsense. You sign a waiver or consent form, just like everything else in life. It's not that hard at all.

It's not that simple at all, in fact. Many assisted suicide cases are at risk of manipulation by family members, may have brain damage, or be unable to communicate effectively. To suggest that requesting to be killed is "just like everything else in life" shows a complete lack of understanding of he issue.

[Shaddim]

A person should have the right to die when they want and for any reason.

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by Shaddim 

A person should have the right to die when they want and for any reason.

Asking the government to legalize the killing of a person and the medical establishment to assist in so-doing is the question. I think.

Some problems; thousands will line up to have their lives ended peacefully, lines will have to be drawn, and the State will be the deciding factor on these cases. Imagine, a State that cannot effectively manage countless other details being bogged down with "who gets to legally commit suicide today?" and "should this doctor have to do it?" and "this clinic seems a little anxious in doing it".

Interestingly, the UK's Department for Constitutional Affairs sums it up about as good as anything else; "creating an exception to the general prohibition on intentional killing would open the way to further erosion, whether by design, by inadvertence or by the human tendency to test the limits of any regulation. These dangers are such that any decriminalisation of voluntary euthanasia would give rise to more, and more grave, problems than those it sought to address.”
http://www.dca.gov.uk

This is pretty much where I stand on this issue. There was a reason for the Hippocratic oath. Too bad it has been all, but entirely abandoned today.

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by smacintush 

We live in a country obsessed with "rights".

How the choice to kill oneself isn't considered a right is beyond me.

I want a suicide switch like in Time Enough for Love.

I see a common thread among those who support euthanasia; "You should be allowed to kill yourself."

You're not asking to simply kill yourself. There is little the law can do to stop you from killing yourself. Happens all the time and they are not hauling cadavers off to prison. You're asking for the government to legalize killing you and tasking the medical establishment with doing it.

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by ♥ 

[url=http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,339709,00.html]This is a situation where euthanasia should have been absolutely allowed. I would have wanted to die also. It should be allowed under certain conditions when it is humane to end extreme suffering. We do it for dogs and cats and I think humans should be allowed to make the choice for themselves also.

First of all, you regard "suffering" differently than others. Who determines these "certain conditions" and "extreme suffering"?

I might also argue against comparing the profundity of the human condition with that of dogs and cats. There are horrible stories all around us, we cannot always just legislate them away.

[smacintush]

Originally Posted by ebuddy 

I see a common thread among those who support euthanasia; "You should be allowed to kill yourself."

You're not asking to simply kill yourself. There is little the law can do to stop you from killing yourself. Happens all the time and they are not hauling cadavers off to prison.

Regardless whether or not it was enforced, suicide was illegal in pretty much the whole US and attempted suicide in parts of it. In many states suicide was a felony. In some U.S. states, suicide is still considered an unwritten "common law crime." Really though, the point is how society views it. People may accept that one may kill his or herself, but they don't respect it.

[smacintush]

Originally Posted by ebuddy 

Asking the government to legalize the killing of a person and the medical establishment to assist in so-doing is the question. I think.

Some problems; thousands will line up to have their lives ended peacefully, lines will have to be drawn, and the State will be the deciding factor on these cases. Imagine, a State that cannot effectively manage countless other details being bogged down with "who gets to legally commit suicide today?" and "should this doctor have to do it?" and "this clinic seems a little anxious in doing it".

Interestingly, the UK's Department for Constitutional Affairs sums it up about as good as anything else; "creating an exception to the general prohibition on intentional killing would open the way to further erosion, whether by design, by inadvertence or by the human tendency to test the limits of any regulation. These dangers are such that any decriminalisation of voluntary euthanasia would give rise to more, and more grave, problems than those it sought to address.”
Department for Constitutional Affairs - Home Page
.

So, it should be illegal because the government would make a mess of it if it were to be legal?

[smacintush]

Should one have the right to kill themselves?

Should that right only apply to those who are willing to use violent or questionable means to do it?

Should that right disappear when one no longer has the physical capability of performing the act themselves?

[Chongo]

Roddenberry was always ahead of the curve
STARTREK.COM�:�Episode

At first, the experiment seems successful, but the sun's temperature continues to rise to dangerous levels, forcing the starship to evacuate the region and return to Kaelon II. Later, when even the charming Lwaxana is unable to comfort the defeated Timicin, he confides to her that he is returning home to die.

Soon afterward, Lwaxana marches into Picard's office, outraged by Timicin's revelation that he will soon participate in a ritual suicide known as The Resolution. The ritual calls on all citizens of Kaelon II to kill themselves upon reaching the age of 60 in order to eliminate the society's responsibility of caring for the elderly. Lwaxana likens the ritual to murder but Picard refuses to intervene since the problem is out of his jurisdiction.

Universal Health Care will see to that. Why waste money on someone who will can longer contribute to society by working and paying taxes? from a movie from the '70's "they shoot horses, don't they?"

[RAILhead]

So ♥ = CodyDawg? Damn, I'm getting slow in my old age...

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by smacintush 

Should one have the right to kill themselves?

I don't know. I have to wonder if the government generally maintains that it did not grant life and therefore should not legislate around the taking of it. When you ask whether or not people have the right to kill themselves, life is one of those things you can take from yourself without anyone's granting of a "right" or permission.

Should that right only apply to those who are willing to use violent or questionable means to do it?

Depends on what you consider violent or questionable. I don't want to provide ways of doing it for the benefit of this argument.

Should that right disappear when one no longer has the physical capability of performing the act themselves?

When one waits this long there's a very good reason, but then I believe when society waits as long as it has there's a very good reason.

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by smacintush 

So, it should be illegal because the government would make a mess of it if it were to be legal?

Well... of course.

[smacintush]

Originally Posted by ebuddy 

I don't know. I have to wonder if the government generally maintains that it did not grant life and therefore should not legislate around the taking of it. When you ask whether or not people have the right to kill themselves, life is one of those things you can take from yourself without anyone's granting of a "right" or permission.

Well, local authorities sure pull out all the stops to prevent it when they know someone is going to do it. Even to the point of using bean bag shells and pepper balls to incapacitate them.

Depends on what you consider violent or questionable. I don't want to provide ways of doing it for the benefit of this argument.

What I mean is, without some sort of assistance there are few ways to do the deed with anything resembling dignity. This only increases the stigma.

When one waits this long there's a very good reason, but then I believe when society waits as long as it has there's a very good reason.

What about the man who falls off of his horse and breaks his neck? Only, instead of starting a foundation and being paraded on TV as some sort of "hero", he is mostly alone and falls into a state of hopelessness? Society would try to push him into living his life as long as medically possible all the while trying to convince him how wrong he is to be so depressed. I would hope that someone in that situation could find peace with his circumstances, but as someone who has witnessed a similar situation first hand, I wouldn't begrudge someone like this the right to die on their own terms. Only, they can't do it themselves. They are at the whim of those who would deny him his choice…for his own good.

[subego]

Originally Posted by smacintush 

Society would try to push him into living his life as long as medically possible all the while trying to convince him how wrong he is to be so depressed.

FWIU, and there are exceptions of course, huge non-brain related injuries or medical conditions don't tend to change a person's overall outlook.

Happy people who become quadriplegics make for happy quadriplegics, likewise with depressed ones.

So in a sense, they are "wrong" for being depressed, at least as "wrong" as someone who is equally depressed over something far less monumental.

When it comes right down to it, people don't get depressed over things, but it's very hard for one's brain to accept it is depressed for no good reason. We can't resist making value judgments on everything.

My depression has to be for a reason... otherwise it isn't good enough.

[subego]

Just to throw in another thought bomb (props to tonight's Nancy Grace for making me think of it):

Do you have the right to kill yourself if you have young children to take care of?

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by smacintush 

Well, local authorities sure pull out all the stops to prevent it when they know someone is going to do it. Even to the point of using bean bag shells and pepper balls to incapacitate them.

I wonder how many were stopped from killing themselves and now have that officer on their Christmas card list.

What I mean is, without some sort of assistance there are few ways to do the deed with anything resembling dignity. This only increases the stigma. What about the man who falls off of his horse and breaks his neck? Only, instead of starting a foundation and being paraded on TV as some sort of "hero", he is mostly alone and falls into a state of hopelessness? Society would try to push him into living his life as long as medically possible all the while trying to convince him how wrong he is to be so depressed. I would hope that someone in that situation could find peace with his circumstances, but as someone who has witnessed a similar situation first hand, I wouldn't begrudge someone like this the right to die on their own terms. Only, they can't do it themselves. They are at the whim of those who would deny him his choice…for his own good.

Because of your personal experience here, I'm left only to say I'm sorry you witnessed this and I'm sorry for your friend. There are horrible stories all around us and while it may be tempting to invoke some government legislation for all of these complex cases, I'm afraid there would be more harm than good to come of this. Different people regard "suffering" differently. I think of this Nick Vujicic guy.



Loneliness and misery require your consent. One may think there is nothing to live for. Others may be thankful they have the opportunity to prevail against adversity. It is said that all experience suffering in various degrees at one point or another in their life. I'm not sure we can adequately define what suffering is to all and I'm not sure as a society we can just make ending your life easier.

[Chongo]

Rose Siggins, born with a rare genetic disorder known as Sacral Agenesis

The Inspiring Story of Rose Siggins

[CollinG3G4]

If you need someone to help you commie suicide, then you don't really want to die that bad. Seriously, muster up a bit of courage and toss a variety of pills down the hatch. That is pretty damn easy. Add a small charcoal grill just to be sure. Done and done.

Also, it is different when you're born with some type of deformity verses something causing it later in life. In the former case, it is something to overcome. In the latter, it would be beyond depressing.

BTW, those pictures are not disturbing. Get a stomach.

[olePigeon]

If I was that crippled, I'd rent myself out to scientists to field test various advanced prosthetics (the new kinds with neural interfaces and stuff.)

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by CollinG3G4 

BTW, those pictures are not disturbing. Get a stomach.

Who said they were disturbing?

[CollinG3G4]

Originally Posted by ebuddy 

Who said they were disturbing?

First post, first line.

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by CollinG3G4 

First post, first line.

The OP's pics. Apologies.

[♥]

They disturbed me. And somehow I have a feeling that if you'd met her in person you'd have a not-so-pleasant feeling.

[Chongo]

full article:Death for hire - suicide machine lets you push final button - Times Online

Roger Boyes in Berlin

One press of a button and you can end your life with a swift injection of potassium chloride. That is the boast of Roger Kusch, once one of Germany's most promising conservative politicians and now the improbable promoter of a mercy-killing machine.

If the “Perfusor”, designed to sidestep strict laws banning assisted suicide, goes into production then Germany rather than Switzerland could soon become the destination of choice for those seeking to kill themselves.