[typoon]

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
To me the point of Black History Month isn't just to remind and educate African Americans about black history, it is also to remind and educate non-African Americans as well. As ugly and as paradoxically uplifting as it is, black history is American history. That's why I don't see it as divisive at all. It's unifying.

That maybe true but then why not have a month to educate others about the other minority cultures? I mean it is ridiculous that they need a month to do this. Yes Black history is American history but so is history of the other minorities in this country. is the history of other Americans not as important as blacks to get there own month too? Unfortunately in American society we mostly teach about white history which is ashame. It would be nice to learn the history of others in this country too in school or in the media. Unfortunately minorities get stuck in a stereotype.

[boots]

Originally posted by Apple Pro Underwear:

sorry. when i see young black youth in NYC...i automatically get more cautious. and by my observations, so do other blacks.

i'm not rascist.

You might want to add "White Privilege: Pedagogy, Politics and Whiteness" to your reading list while your at it. I know you're not white, but that attitude is addressed, and it isn't just whites that exibit "residual" privilege traits.

[Apple Pro Underwear]

Originally posted by thunderous_funker:
We're talking about American History.

Black people make up less than 25%of the total population in America

the fastest growing minority group in america is Latinos



Why is there Black History Month again?

http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/1998/black.history/

seems to me BHM should be a celebrated privately by blacks instead of having a national stage. there contributions are not always history changing but are spun to make it sound like the acheivements are made because they are black. i am of the idea that martin luther king and the "minority surgeon" in that link were sucessful because they were talented politician and surgeon respectively rather than just being black.

[boots]

APU seems to have missed the point entirely.

Come back when you have something substantial to say.

[thunderous_funker]

Originally posted by Apple Pro Underwear:
this is a forum for adult communication, please refrain from making remarks that are incriminating because of personal suspicions but instead solid insight and intelligent assumption

So your fear of black culture is the result of "solid insight and intelligent assumption"?

I guess I'll have to take you at your word when you say that your attitude is "unique" and "hard to put into words". Clearly it is.

I'm sorry to say that so far your attempts to put it into words have left me with the marked impression that your feelings about black people are dominated by negative stereotypes. Some would say that is the definition of racism.

I'm not trying to accuse you of anything, I'm just wading through your comments and trying very hard to make sense of what you're saying.

You seem to resent the notion that we should focus on the contribution of black people to American history during the the shortest month of the year. That strikes me as somewhat irrational since no one is going to quiz you on the subject on Feb 28th so you are free to ignore it completely.

Then you seem to be suggesting that your resentment is due to negative elements in modern black culture that you find troubling. All the while you seem to be determined to suggest that their historical contribution is of little value in general. You even went so far as to suggest that their contribution to world history was of little value.

So it's quite obvious to me that whatever your "unique" attitude is, it is most certainly "hard to put it into words" because from where I'm sitting it sounds identical to racism.

Since you've been a long standing member of our community here and pretty intelligent person, I find that a bit troubling and I'm perfectly willing to chalk it up to miscommunication. Like you said, it's "hard to put into words" how you feel. I can understand that. I really can.

Perhaps we can clarify your feelings?

-I'm not sure why this casual gesture of offering a month to recognize the contribution of black americans is so troubling to you

-I'm not sure why you feel justified in having a negative view of black people because some of them aren't good people

I'll be more than happy to apologize for making any inferences from your previous statements. Trust me. I really really really want to believe that this is merely a misunderstanding.

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally posted by typoon:
That maybe true but then why not have a month to educate others about the other minority cultures? I mean it is ridiculous that they need a month to do this. Yes Black history is American history but so is history of the other minorities in this country. is the history of other Americans not as important as blacks to get there own month too? Unfortunately in American society we mostly teach about white history which is ashame. It would be nice to learn the history of others in this country too in school or in the media. Unfortunately minorities get stuck in a stereotype.

Well, first of all as others have pointed out, other minorities do get separate recognition. Maybe you aren't as aware of it. I work for the federal government. Scarecely a month goes by that I don't get an e-mail announcing some recognition month or another. So the unfairness you are complaining of doesn't really exist on the formal level.

Black History Month does get more prominance, though. In part I'm sure it is because it was the first such month created. Secondly, African Americans represent the largest minority group. But more importantly, African American history is the most uniquely intertwined history with that of America as a whole. The history of slavery just makes black history different, in my view. Slavery was a key issue in American constitutional law since before there was a Constitution. It was absolutely central and for one thing it lead to the most bloodletting in American history.

[thunderous_funker]

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
Well, first of all as others have pointed out, other minorities do get separate recognition. Maybe you aren't as aware of it. I work for the federal government. Scarecely a month goes by that I don't get an e-mail announcing some recognition month or another. So the unfairness you are complaining of doesn't really exist on the formal level.

Black History Month does get more prominance, though. In part I'm sure it is because it was the first such month created. Secondly, African Americans represent the largest minority group. But more importantly, African American history is the most uniquely intertwined history with that of America as a whole. The history of slavery just makes black history different, in my view. Slavery was a key issue in American constitutional law since before there was a Constitution. It was absolutely central and for one thing it lead to the most bloodletting in American history.

Thanks, Simey. That is wonderfully well said.

[Apple Pro Underwear]

Originally posted by boots:
You might want to add "White Privilege: Pedagogy, Politics and Whiteness" to your reading list while your at it. I know you're not white, but that attitude is addressed, and it isn't just whites that exibit "residual" privilege traits.

fair enough

i just want to re-iterate i am around black people ALL THE TIME. i grew up with them and etc.

i'm not sitting here in a ranch in utah, sprouting these ideas. i'm in NYC in a mixed black/jewish community.

some of the comments i made about my leeriness of blacks is from direct observation. for instance:

� i have witnessed a black person stand next to a white guy on a train near the door and then punch in the face for no reason and run out laughing hysterically. i never stand next to black youth in the subway doors as a result.
� i have watched black people(men and woman) start fights on crowded subways just for the mere touching of them. as a result...don't stand near black people on crowded trains

some of this relies on stereotyping. but i only say this because it's true. a hip hop gansta dressed black man is best avoided while the ordinary clean cut black guy i consider non volatile if unprovoked.

this is the same thing as a antelope seeing a lion attack other antelopes in a waterhole in africa. they see what has occurred from personal experience and observation, and learned to act accordingly.

[nonhuman]

I think all holidays, particularly governmentally sanctioned ones, are stupid.

Things like this that 'celebrate diversity' do nothing but increase the feeling of difference and alienation between groups. If everyone wasn't so damned sensative about offending minorities it wouldn't be so blatently obvious that there are differences between us.

[scottiB]

The idea that there isn't a White History month is laughable. Until recently, American history tight in schools was white history. I graduated from high school in 1985. The only Black Americans that were mentioned from 1972 to 1985 were Crispus Attucks, Harriet Tubman, and Martin Luther King. Slavery was a mild embarassment, and genociding Native Americans was a bump along Manifest Destiny Avenue. THAT was the history taught until recently, and it was probably worse for generations before me. I trust that it's better now.

While I agree that the marketing during this month is obtuse--trumpeting 'blackness' rather than historical figures like W.E.B Du Bois, Marcus Garvey, Ralph Ellison, Booker T. Washington and the Harlem Renaissance, African-American history is American history of which we need to be reminded.
---
APU, you shouldn't let personal experiences (your subway ancedote, for instance) affect your view of history.

I've seen whites act racist, and it doesn't change my view of white Amercian historical figures.

[boots]

Originally posted by Apple Pro Underwear:
fair enough

i just want to re-iterate i am around black people ALL THE TIME. i grew up with them and etc.

i'm not sitting here in a ranch in utah, sprouting these ideas. i'm in NYC in a mixed black/jewish community.

some of the comments i made about my leeriness of blacks is from direct observation. for instance:

? i have witnessed a black person stand next to a white guy on a train near the door and then punch in the face for no reason and run out laughing hysterically. i never stand next to black youth in the subway doors as a result.
? i have watched black people(men and woman) start fights on crowded subways just for the mere touching of them. as a result...don't stand near black people on crowded trains

some of this relies on stereotyping. but i only say this because it's true. a hip hop gansta dressed black man is best avoided while the ordinary clean cut black guy i consider non volatile if unprovoked.

this is the same thing as a antelope seeing a lion attack other antelopes in a waterhole in africa. they see what has occurred from personal experience and observation, and learned to act accordingly.

I'm white and live in Atlanta. So I'm around Black's all the time too. That doesn't mean I don't enjoy privileges, and it doesn't mean that I don't have a few racist tendencies. I also lived in Detroit. There are enough White-Gangsta's there that I should "be nervous" around them too. But I am not. I do, however, understand that the feeling is irrational and try to deal with it.

If this really bothers you so much, maybe you should do some research into the reasons why we have BHM. Then decide if it is a positive solution to a perceived problem or if it is just an overhyped media show for a minority that you don't think deserves it. Black-White race relations are a very complex issue once you get past the surface perceptions.

Here, I'll start for you. Read the West book. Fact: oppressive poverty is a disproportionate problem within the Black community.

Fact: This has lead to a feeling of helplessness/hopelessness that feeds negative actions.

Problem: How do you address this and make steps to change it?

Solution: Provide high profile examples of positive contributions by people from your same group.

Is that wrong? Sounds like a great idea to me. If you don't need the role-models, and don't care about the historical aspect, then ignore it. There is no down side to this.

I'm with TF here. I usually have a lot of respect for you and your posts. This thread is disturbing in that regard.

[Apple Pro Underwear]

Originally posted by thunderous_funker:
So your fear of black culture is the result of "solid insight and intelligent assumption"?
Perhaps we can clarify your feelings?

-I'm not sure why this casual gesture of offering a month to recognize the contribution of black americans is so troubling to you

-I'm not sure why you feel justified in having a negative view of black people because some of them aren't good people

i think it is a misunderstanding

one reason i am perturbed by BHM is that i am bombarded by it as i am living in black/jewish neighborhood. i see that these people could have benefitted from the money used in promotion in other ways

you are right in that i see some black people as bad people but i have a positive view of black people overall. i see that they need something, but i'm not sure BHM is it. i would say that BHM money should be diverted to youth and education for young black children in poor neighborhoods.

my insight is very strange, but i am around black people all the time and have current friendships. living in NYC in a majority black neighborhood is a unique experience that many of you have not felt.

[thunderous_funker]

APU, you can't judge an entire race by the acts of random criminals. Knowing who to avoid in the subway shoudn't be a matter of race. I avoid punks too, but it's because they're punks, not because of their race.

Having grown up in similar circumstances to you, I feel confident in suggesting that it's not that hard to tell the punks from everyone esle regardless of their skin color.

The guys you are avoiding on the subway could probably use a good dose of positive cultural role models more than anyone. Black History months is an attempt at doing that.

[boots]

Originally posted by thunderous_funker:

The guys you are avoiding on the subway could probably use a good dose of positive cultural role models more than anyone. Black History months is an attempt at doing that.

Which is why Ol' Dirty Bastard and R. Kelly are featured prominantly.

[Apple Pro Underwear]

Originally posted by boots:

Black-White race relations are a very complex issue once you get past the surface perceptions.

Here, I'll start for you. Read the West book. Fact: oppressive poverty is a disproportionate problem within the Black community.

Fact: This has lead to a feeling of helplessness/hopelessness that feeds negative actions.

Problem: How do you address this and make steps to change it?

Solution: Provide high profile examples of positive contributions by people from your same group.

i think you're right

but i am not understanding your thoughts on how i should be the one responsible helping them. they should fix the problem themselves (of course the govt helps them)

i think that comments i made are how a lot of people feel. i dont really see how anyone but black people can solve problems of how they act and are perceived.

[Apple Pro Underwear]

Originally posted by thunderous_funker:

The guys you are avoiding on the subway could probably use a good dose of positive cultural role models more than anyone. Black History months is an attempt at doing that.

i'll answer it with this quote by boots

Which is why Ol' Dirty Bastard and R. Kelly are featured prominantly.

i think BHM should be abandoned for a different approach

such as childrens centers to attempt to instill something positive in kids before it's too late

[thunderous_funker]

Originally posted by Apple Pro Underwear:
i think you're right

but i am not understanding your thoughts on how i should be the one responsible helping them. they should fix the problem themselves (of course the govt helps them)

i think that comments i made are how a lot of people feel. i dont really see how anyone but black people can solve problems of how they act and are perceived.

Essentially, I think you're right. Many black leaders feel the same way. They are tired of young people choosing the wrong role models.

I think our role has more to do with understanding, patience and fighting against the kinds of stereotypes that can further complicate the great divide that already exists between our communities.

I think too many people are too dismissive of exactly how hard it's been for black americans. Let's remember that civil rights only happened in the last 30-40 years and it hasn't reached some parts of the country fully yet.

In many way, there is a culture crisis in black America. What we can do is not ignore their challenges and work to overcome our differences.

In the end, however, there is only so much we can do as outsiders. Pehaps it's simply best to say that we should never give up home that black Americans can do as well as other minority groups. They are struggling, but their time is really just beginning.

[Apple Pro Underwear]

as for your comments on how the perception of me has changed because of this thread:

why? ami rascist? no. am i in favor of helping blacks? yes.

i think i agree with boots in that i need more reading but my comments i made today still represent how many people feel about BHM.

i hope that you learned something from my posts, as i have yours. i never carry over any negative feelings from thread to thread because it's silly.

[boots]

Originally posted by Apple Pro Underwear:


but i am not understanding your thoughts on how i should be the one responsible helping them. they should fix the problem themselves (of course the govt helps them)

How about because we are all in this together? How about because its the right thing to do?
How about because my people (the majority for the time being) were responsible for much of the way the history has played out?

Take a trip through the rural south sometime and see if your ideas on how much progress the country has made regarding civil rights change at all.

[boots]

Originally posted by Apple Pro Underwear:
i'll answer it with this quote by boots

boots
Which is why Ol' Dirty Bastard and R. Kelly are featured prominantly.

This was a tongue-in-cheek response because you asked earlier why they don't put them up. Sorry. Upon rereading, is didn't come across. The serious answer would have neen the negative:

Which is why Ol' Dirty Bastard and R. Kelly aren't featured prominantly.

[Apple Pro Underwear]

Originally posted by boots:
[B]

This was a tongue-in-cheek response because you asked earlier why they don't put them up. Sorry. Upon rereading, is didn't come across. The serious answer would have neen the negative:

Which is why Ol' Dirty Bastard and R. Kelly aren't featured prominantly.

R kelly is one of the biggest black stars on earth


he's a role model for black youth, like it or not


same goes for every black guy on tv

[Apple Pro Underwear]

Originally posted by boots:
How about because we are all in this together? How about because its the right thing to do?
How about because my people (the majority for the time being) were responsible for much of the way the history has played out?

Take a trip through the rural south sometime and see if your ideas on how much progress the country has made regarding civil rights change at all.

thats your opinion now

my opinion is to represent my asians through positive contributions from my daily life.

i will go to work and try to be a good worker. treat people with respect and be an outstanding citizen.

i'm only interested in black people for the most part in whats going on in NYC. i leave it to powerful black activists to worry about the future of black community.

[boots]

Originally posted by Apple Pro Underwear:
R kelly is one of the biggest black stars on earth


he's a role model for black youth, like it or not


same goes for every black guy on tv

I was refering to BHM spotlights. These people, as you pointed out, are conspicuously absent. They ARE role model, but not necessarily the ones who are blazing the paths to equality or who represent the morals and ideals that BHM are trying to bring out.

This is a problem with pop-culture in general. The popular media stars are not great role models, but that's what gets the air-time...so I'll religate that to future discussions.

BTW, your last few posts have restored my faith in all that is "APU." Challenge things that bother you, but don't do it with a closed mind.

[boots]

Originally posted by Apple Pro Underwear:
... i leave it to powerful black activists to worry about the future of black community.

And that, my friend, is exactly what is happening.

[zigzag]

Originally posted by Apple Pro Underwear:
thats your opinion now

my opinion is to represent my asians through positive contributions from my daily life.

i will go to work and try to be a good worker. treat people with respect and be an outstanding citizen.

i'm only interested in black people for the most part in whats going on in NYC. i leave it to powerful black activists to worry about the future of black community.

You seem to be trying to say that the black community needs to do a better job of raising some of its own children to be courteous, productive citizens. I think that most black leaders know this. We're just trying to remind you that (a) it's not representative of all black culture, (b) it's not limited to black culture, and (c) there are complex historical reasons for it. This doesn't excuse bad behavior on the part of any particular individual(s), but it's important to keep an open mind and look at the big picture. The history of race relations in this country is not pretty, black people have borne the brunt of it, and it's still being sorted out.

You also appear to resent the fact that BHM puts a positive spin on black culture while overlooking its failings. Fair enough. We're just trying to remind you that there are good reasons for highlighting certain aspects of history. It can be annoying and sanctimonious, especially if you're bombarded by it, but there are good reasons for doing it. I'm sure the same criticisms could be made about Asian History Month or Latino History Month, but there are still good reasons for having them.

Regarding RKelly and so forth: every culture has artists who reject and rebel against authority and the status quo, and/or pander to our lowest instincts. Black culture is no different, and it would make no sense to cancel BHM just because RKelly has been a bad boy.

[thunderous_funker]

APU,

I have found the discussion helpful. I'm glad you have too.

If I can just add a peice of advice without sounding too condescending..

I think too many young Americans grossly underestimate the devastating legacy of slavery and segregation on black culture. Too often I hear people saying, "get over it" or "that was a long time ago" or something equally dismissive. These wounds will heal, but treating them lightly only makes that healing process take longer. We are seeing the very beginning of black integration in America. This process is still in it's relative infancy.

That's not to suggest that there is patent excuse for the failures of black communities. I'm just saying that when they struggle, our attitude of dismissing their anger, frustration and disconnectedness as something frivolous only worsens the situation.

It's not also to say that the rest of us are required to suffer some guilt or remorse over what happened. Some sensitive people do, but that's not really necessary, IMO. Pity isn't required. Remorse isn't really required (although a formal apology from the Government and efforts at reparations might go a long way towards helping). It's just a matter of basic human understanding and a little empathy. I don't feel sorry for black people, but I have spent enough time in their community to have appreciation for their challenges.

And there is only one reason why young people (of all races) idolize a lot of the wrong role models. Money. For a lot of people, the preception is that if you're rich in America, you can do whatever the hell you want. We idolize the rich. The more they flaunt it, the more we idolize them. In communities where poverty and powerlessness are rampant, those images and idols are even more compelling.

It's not decadence that they are celebrating, it's the freedom and the power of the flamboyantly decadant that is intoxicating.

That's another topic, though

No harm, no foul, APU. I hope you'll think about it. And I hope you'll never bump into the wrong people on the subway, regardless of color.

[Captain Obvious]

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:


Black History Month does get more prominance, though. In part I'm sure it is because it was the first such month created. Secondly, African Americans represent the largest minority group.


But more importantly, African American history is the most uniquely intertwined history with that of America as a whole. The history of slavery just makes black history different, in my view.

No, they aren't according to the last census.

And unique how? Far less important in my opinion than the effect Native Americans or Mexico were to our history. It is like I said before.. all friggin guilt that everyone in the country is supposed to feel over the slavery issue. A good half dozen ethnic minorities were slaves to someone at a point in history and yet that doesn't get brought up nearly as often. Granted the span of time since it happened might be larger but the fact it happened is equally as vile.
My problem is that there isn't an equal emphasis on other months of recognition and the reasons why that is. Arguments of the size of the population or level of contribution are moot in my opinion as blacks are not top on the list for either in the United States. Its the most prominent because of media propagated guilt driven by politics and political correctness.

[Timo]

Captain Obvious, your name is some kind of ironic joke, right?

Originally posted by Captain Obvious:
[Blacks are f]ar less important in my opinion than the effect Native Americans or Mexico were to our history.

Effect? Effect? Do you mean effect on the white man's history?

Did you sleep through your required history courses? Maybe you should turn off the TV for a bit and hit the books.

Look Cap'n, I didn't know it was a contest as to which group had the most effect. When you let us know your hierarchy of groups with the most effect, we'll be sure to calibrate observances you don't give a shit about anyway accordingly.

It is like I said before.. all friggin guilt that everyone in the country is supposed to feel over the slavery issue.

Awww shucks, I didn't get the memo where I'm supposed to feel guilty, so it can't be everyone, now can it? I think -- I'm going out on a limb here -- you made this stuff up.

A good half dozen ethnic minorities were slaves to someone at a point in history and yet that doesn't get brought up nearly as often.

Hmm...OK. How is that relevant? First, who was a slave when and for how long -- it's not a contest. Second, no other ethnic group in US history was exclusively brought to this country as slaves.

Granted the span of time since it happened might be larger but the fact it happened is equally as vile.

No one knows what you're talking about here. Do you mean that other groups of people throughout history have been slaves? You just told me above that some groups have had a larger effect but that "the fact it happened is equally as vile"? So which is it: all slavery at all times was equally vile, or the slavery of some people was a more important effect than others?

My problem is that there isn't an equal emphasis on other months of recognition and the reasons why that is.

Your problem is deeper than that.

Arguments of the size of the population or level of contribution are moot in my opinion as blacks are not top on the list for either in the United States.

So a population is only relevant if its at the top? Figures.

Its the most prominent because of media propagated guilt driven by politics and political correctness.

Keep smokin' yer rightwinger hateweed, keep blaming your own problems on external bad guys like the liberal media and all of those politically correct shibboleths. I'm sure it's easier to have outside bogeymen than a hard look around yourself, and in yourself.

[thunderous_funker]

Extra points awarded for use of "Shibboleths"

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally posted by Captain Obvious:
And unique how? Far less important in my opinion than the effect Native Americans or Mexico were to our history.

Aren't you a law student? I'll take it you haven't taken Con Law II. But I'm sure you have heard of some of the pivotal cases. Scott v. Sanford, Brown v. Board of Education, etc., etc., Not trivial stuff. How about your party affiliation? You are a Republican, right? Your party was founded on what issue?

[thunderous_funker]

Or wondered how on Earth some rag-tag colonists ever mangaged to become an economic power fast enough to challenge the Empire for their independence.

[zigzag]

There was that little matter of the Civil War. And the Civil Rights movement. Incidental.

And jazz, blues, and rock and roll - all minor musical styles invented by French aristocrats. Not that important to our history.

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally posted by zigzag:
There was that little matter of the Civil War. And the Civil Rights movement. Incidental.

And jazz, blues, and rock and roll - all minor musical styles invented by French aristocrats. Not that important to our history.

[jaydon34]

I have never seen so much ignorance in my life. The type of bulllshitt thats posted in this forum is what keeps racism alive. As a black person from ny where everthing is pretty much mixed up. I find no problem with people of the opposite race. Infact most of my friends are different races and religions. But for someone say the dont agree with Black history month is crazy. Im mean cmon, lets cry because we dont have a white entertainment network (bet). When every channel is white televison. How long has this country been established and still no president outside the white race or even a woman. Hell if it was up to me I think every minority should have dedicated month. Everyone should stop crying about Bulllshittt and start worrying about things that are important.

All the people with there close minded opinions should pick up there laptops, move from the trailer park and experience life for what it is. Become multi-cultured it will save us all from your stupidity.

[jaydon34]

Originally posted by Apple Pro Underwear:
fair enough

i just want to re-iterate i am around black people ALL THE TIME. i grew up with them and etc.

i'm not sitting here in a ranch in utah, sprouting these ideas. i'm in NYC in a mixed black/jewish community.

some of the comments i made about my leeriness of blacks is from direct observation. for instance:

� i have witnessed a black person stand next to a white guy on a train near the door and then punch in the face for no reason and run out laughing hysterically. i never stand next to black youth in the subway doors as a result.
� i have watched black people(men and woman) start fights on crowded subways just for the mere touching of them. as a result...don't stand near black people on crowded trains

some of this relies on stereotyping. but i only say this because it's true. a hip hop gansta dressed black man is best avoided while the ordinary clean cut black guy i consider non volatile if unprovoked.

this is the same thing as a antelope seeing a lion attack other antelopes in a waterhole in africa. they see what has occurred from personal experience and observation, and learned to act accordingly.

maybe you need to stop being scared. And live your life. Im sorry that you witnessed such terrible acts. But to live your life any different is plain old silly.

Lets see how dum I sound

�Ive been in a car accident before and as a result....I dont drive.

�Ive been attacked by white males and as a result.... I dont trust any of them even my little brothers best friend.

You gotta realize the are bad black, white , spanish, indian ect.dont let badd occurance spoil your whole outlook on a race. Hey i gotta good movie for ya go rent american history x

[MasonMcD]

Growing up in the south, if I had a nickel for every time I heard "I don't care if a person is black, white, blue or purple..." followed by an overt slur, or "Now... there's black people, who I don't have no problem with, and there's ni**ers...Hell, there's even white ni**ers..." as if that was some sort of display of impartiality.

I would be a rich man.

I have black acquaintences whose fathers could not vote, use particular restrooms, or eat where they wanted, among other degradations. We had a governor in Georgia when I was a toddler, Lester Maddox, who chased black people out of his restaurant with an axe handle.

Raise your hand if that happened to your father. If it did, how would your kids turn out? Don't you think there might be some lingering issues there?

In the history of the United States, waves of immigrants, Germans, Poles, Swedes, Irish, etc. came through in search of something better, moved into poverty stricken areas, and were pushed out and up by the next wave. The blacks were the last wave of free men. They had no one to point to and demean as the "newcomers." They were the ones who got stuck. Stuck trying to live down literacy tests to vote, stuck trying to assimilate, but their skin was black, stuck with no real foundation to build upon. Even "40 acres and a mule" was taken away.

I think the only minorities that can remotely identify with black are jews, and native americans. Jews, however, had white skin, and native americans, well, we gave them enough smallpox infested blankets, shi**y reservation land, roles as the "wise and noble savage" on TV and movies, and taste for alcohol that they are a small enough minority that most people don't have to confront any shame about how we treated them.

Damn. Was that a rant? Sorry.

[Apple Pro Underwear]

Originally posted by jaydon34:

You gotta realize the are bad black, white , spanish, indian ect.dont let badd occurance spoil your whole outlook on a race. Hey i gotta good movie for ya go rent american history x

dude, are you black?

if you are, you just don't understand how it feels for other people around you guys in NY.


i make no apologies for my comments. i consider it insight into how to live in brooklyn and avoid trouble.

[tintub]

APU do you actually KNOW any black history? Its not really taught in schools. My school never taught me about Marcus Garvey amd so on. I think it's great that there is a black history month. Instead of whinging about it, why don't you actually learn some history, instead of displaying your ignorance to us all.

[MikeM33]

I think Asia History month would be cool, we could have a 7 day sabbath. The 7th day would be referred to as "Hot Asian Babe Bukakke day".

And there was much rejoicing

MikeM

[boots]

Originally posted by MasonMcD:
Growing up in the south, if I had a nickel for every time I heard "I don't care if a person is black, white, blue or purple..." followed by an overt slur, or "Now... there's black people, who I don't have no problem with, and there's ni**ers...Hell, there's even white ni**ers..." as if that was some sort of display of impartiality.

I would be a rich man.

[snip]

Thanks for adding to my voice in the south's attitude (not everyone, but enough to be more than disturbing).

[Spliffdaddy]

Having grown up in both the 'deep south' and New Jersey - I can say that there is NO difference in the thoughts and beliefs of white people.

Racism is hidden better in the north.

[mindwaves]

Ok, I will take a stab at this discussion. Basically, everyone, regarldess of race, gender, tec, will always have an ethnocentric point of view. It is important to think about the cultural past and how to apply them to the future.

I think what APU is trying to say (based off a few posts which I have read from him) is that Black people make themselves as a whole worse off by applying whatever stereotype people place on them on themselves.

As an Asian, who stuides in an environment where 60% of the population is Asian and less than 1% Black (although that has changed this year because of the stupid policy enacted), I too feel sort of weird and wary when a Black person comes near (part of it is due to their huge size compared to most people here....).

And yes, I think a month to celebrate anything is too much. A week? Maybe...

[Apple Pro Underwear]

Originally posted by mindwaves:
I think what APU is trying to say (based off a few posts which I have read from him) is that Black people make themselves as a whole worse off by applying whatever stereotype people place on them on themselves.

i think he has the jist of it

i think BHM funds could be better utilized

[christ]

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
I have no disagreement with black history month. Black history is a central part of US history. Any vehicle for teaching history to Americans, especially American children is in my books.

The US don't have any history. They have current affairs.

I have no objection to "black <fill in the gap>", but why isn't there a similar "white <fill in the gap>", "pink <fill in the gap>", "<pick your colour><fill in the gap>".

One of the funniest / saddest things that I ever saw on USTV was a young white reporter trying to interview the Black English parents of a Black English tourist that had been killed in a mugging. She kept asking them what it was like to be 'African-American' in England, and they couldn't understand what she meant, as they were neithe African nor American, and the TV gal had no other vocabulary for 'Black'. Sad (but very funny).

[christ]

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
Having grown up in both the 'deep south' and New Jersey - I can say that there is NO difference in the thoughts and beliefs of white people.

Racism is hidden better in the north.

No it isn't - it is just shown less in public.

What is also amusing about this whole discussion is the implication that only minorities are the victims of racism, and only the majority are guilty of it.

In my experience just as high a proportion of blacks/ greens/ greys/ yellows/ browns are racist as in the white/ pink community, but because they are 'a minority' it is 'positive' and therefore to be encouraged - exactly the sort of credo that (wrongly) leads to a Miss Black America contest (which is apparently considered neither racist nor sexist) but (rightly) abhors Mr White Supremacist.

[finboy]

I look at EVERY month as Black History Month. When we study history, it's kind of hard to ignore the role of people of color, black folks included.

To the extent that people failed to learn about the important contributions of American blacks when growing up, that's probably a failure of the educational system, but not due to racism today.

[Captain Obvious]

APU's point has been since the beginning that there is a disproportionate amount of attention brought to Black History Month and that there is not necessarily a justified reason for that. And there isn't in contrast to the totality of things that were done in this country. The arguments for it being so important thus far have revolved around the injustice of slavery & discrimination and the large numbers of blacks in the country.

Slavery is not even close to the worst thing that has happened within what is now the United States. The systematic genocide of Native Americans should be acknowledged far before anyone mentions slavery. Manifest Destiny excused the slaugtering of an entire race of people. Forget slavery. At its peak the Indian population here was about 12 million, considering the world population at that time 12 million is pretty huge, current census numbers today estimate the population at a few hundred thousand. The damage done to Native Americans is not something that can be recovered from even if looked at from strict numerical perspective. Then there is the land issues. You cite all these great land mark cases but I still would say the acquisition of land from the Indians is far more pivotal to this country existence than most cases you can cite. The Removal Act of 1830 and land given away with the Homestead Act are equally as historically notable as Dred Scott.
But since racism is such a sticking point so far in this thread lets move on to other Federally backed racism.... The Alien and Sedition Act sought to primarily exclude the immigration of the Irish to the US. Want to see someone even more specifically targeted? The Chinese Exclusion Act of 1882 is the only time a law was specifically passed to keep a certain race out of the country's boarders. Chinese children born in the US weren't even considered citizens (that's a unique case to any minority).

The point being that racism is not a special thing encountered only by African American community. Even suffrage for women was not acquired so far in advance of blacks. And that inability to use their right to vote was also encountered by several other groups in our history. Sure slaves help build agriculture here but the contribution of Asian immigrants to the creation of the Transcontinental railroad is just as huge, and they were practically paid slave wages.

The real reason for the emphasis for BHM is that they make up a huge powerful voting block. The people who brought forth the legislation for it cared more about using that issue to win votes than about educating people about history. And that still is the case. Despite the fact that Hispanics now make up the largest minority in the country their contributions in history are not yet celebrated by Congress because they don't necessarily make up a strong enough voting block to cater to. But watch in 20 years how that will change. The direct influence of black culture will pale in comparison to how Latin culture changes our world in the next century. OF course there is a place in history books for the contributions and accomplishments of blacks but that place shouldn't be artificially pushed to the front just because its become politically correct or in the interests of getting more votes. American history is the history of immigrants, the balance of it is not tipped towards just slavery and its after effects.

Originally posted by Timo:
eed, keep blaming your own problems on external bad guys like the liberal media and all of those politically correct shibboleths. I'm sure it's easier to have outside bogeymen than a hard look around yourself, and in yourself.

What the hell was that? Your post was so scattered that you sound like a belligerent little girl. Listen, dipsh!t: No one said they wanted BHM to disappear what has been said over and over is that the emphasis on it is highly questionable. And next time you make a response to something I said, save it instead. Your inability to have a point much less make one in written form is far too clear. Moron.

[imafreak]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by thunderous_funker:
[B]APU,

(although a formal apology from the Government and efforts at reparations might go a long way towards helping).

Reparations - that's crazy

[thunderous_funker]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by imafreak:
[B]

Originally posted by thunderous_funker:
APU,

(although a formal apology from the Government and efforts at reparations might go a long way towards helping).

Reparations - that's crazy

Not when you consider the massive fortunes accumulated through exploiting slave labor. That money didn't just dissappear into the ether.

I'm not talking about sueing someone because their grandfather owned your grandfather.

Rather, I've seen some cases presented where a corporate holding is clearly linked to wealth generated by slave-labor. That wealth should be made available to benefit the victims of slavery. Urban reconstruction. Education. Health benefits. There's plenty of good causes in the black community.

Slave labor made America rich very quickly. Something should be given back.

It's a very controversial issue and I'm not sure that true justice can ever be meted out. I do think, however, that there is room for positive action to heal that wound.

[zigzag]

Originally posted by Captain Obvious:
APU's point has been since the beginning that there is a disproportionate amount of attention brought to Black History Month and that there is not necessarily a justified reason for that.

No, APU's point since the beginning is that he feels annoyed and threatened by a lot of black people. Read his first and last posts - he doesn't really know or care about BHM, he just saw one commercial and it pissed him off. He couldn't very well use a thread title like "Who is annoyed by black people?", even though that's his real complaint.

If he really cared about ethnic History Months, he would have known that there's an Asian History Month. But that's not the real reason for his resentment.

You then gilded the lily of hostility with this pearl of wisdom: "It is like I said before.. all friggin guilt that everyone in the country is supposed to feel over the slavery issue." As if our version of slavery was no worse than anyone else's and therefore no big deal, and as if special issues of black and American history ended in 1865. And you're wondering why no one is taking you seriously?

This doesn't mean that other issues don't also deserve attention, although it's rather a stretch to compare the down side of, say, Irish American history to black American history. And, personally, I think that this country has yet to come to terms with what happened to Native Americans. But that doesn't justify this statement: "It is like I said before.. all friggin guilt that everyone in the country is supposed to feel over the slavery issue."

Consider this: if I had dismissed Native American history with the statement " . . . all friggin guilt that everyone in the country is supposed to feel over the reservation issue", would you think that I really cared about equal History Months, or would you think that I was downright hostile (and woefully ignorant) about native Americans?