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Consequences - your country and the Iraq situation
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simonjames
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Feb 7, 2003, 04:41 AM
 
Please correct me if I am wrong and I would love to hear the opinions of others especially in the 'affected countries" and my own country,

The Australian political leader has committed Australia to back the USA with the war on Iraq. It goes contrary to what seems to be popular opinion - that the Australian public believe that any invasion of Iraq should be sanctioned by the UN. And yet our PM is 100% behind Bush.

The same can be said for Blair - possibly. But no other western leader that I know of.

What is the position of your country's leader and the popular position? Are they the same or do they differ?

I believe the Australian PM's position will be the end of his party. I am not a Liberal voter - would any Aussies agree with me?
     
snotnose
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Feb 7, 2003, 05:06 AM
 
the war will be good for the world once saddam is out. the sanctions will be lifted and the world will prosper off iraq and so will iraq...

i say it starts in 2-3 weeks
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Cubeoid
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Feb 7, 2003, 05:12 AM
 
Some Iraq commander/or somebody said in the press recently that Australia is making a mistake sticking their nose in matters non-related to them, he also said that ALL the Australian troops sent to fight in Iraq will die if a war begins.

In other happy news, the US president responded to Iraq saying that they will defend themselves in the outbreak of war, that he will use nuclear weapons.
     
Cubeoid
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Feb 7, 2003, 05:14 AM
 
Originally posted by snotnose:
the war will be good for the world once saddam is out. the sanctions will be lifted and the world will prosper off iraq and so will iraq...

i say it starts in 2-3 weeks
What are you talking about?! They are not going to kill Saddam, but thousands of innocent people. Gee, I see millions prospering from the death of the innocent, and more anti american hate and anger manufactured in the middle east region.
     
snotnose
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Feb 7, 2003, 05:40 AM
 
i don't understand people that don't understand that this will be for the good.

just think for a minute about the hundreds of thousand of people saddam has killed. he continues to kill and torture people daily. whatever happens from the military action against iraq still won't be as bad as what he has already done.

he just today allowed a scientist to talk to u.n. inspectors. why do you think the scientists have been too afraid to talk in private with the u.n.? he will kill them if they say anything. why would he be afraid of them saying something? because he has stuff to hide. that is the pure facts.

i really don't understand what you all can't understand about this...
Nothing is older than the idea of new

     
Nicko
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Feb 7, 2003, 05:44 AM
 
200,000 people died last time, how many will it be this time?
     
simonjames  (op)
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Feb 7, 2003, 06:06 AM
 
snotnose - I am not saying that what Sadam has done is not wrong but why are we concentrating on 200,000 Iraqis when 900,000 people have been murdered in Rwanda? Where is the Western outcry for these people? Why isn't any Western Government ready to invade Rwanda to restore peace?

Why? Because oil isn't involved - pure and simple.
     
Cipher13
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Feb 7, 2003, 06:08 AM
 
Originally posted by simonjames:
Please correct me if I am wrong and I would love to hear the opinions of others especially in the 'affected countries" and my own country,

The Australian political leader has committed Australia to back the USA with the war on Iraq. It goes contrary to what seems to be popular opinion - that the Australian public believe that any invasion of Iraq should be sanctioned by the UN. And yet our PM is 100% behind Bush.

The same can be said for Blair - possibly. But no other western leader that I know of.

What is the position of your country's leader and the popular position? Are they the same or do they differ?

I believe the Australian PM's position will be the end of his party. I am not a Liberal voter - would any Aussies agree with me?
I will not vote for Howard. He is Bush's bitch. I'd never have allowed him into power in the first place.

By backing Bush, he condemns us.

Great.

Bush and Howard are both ****ed up.
     
undotwa
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Feb 7, 2003, 06:10 AM
 
Originally posted by Nicko:
200,000 people died last time, how many will it be this time?
5000 at most. Most of the Iraqi capacity is gone. Militia doesn't stretch very far - even in defending their homeland.

Howard has a lot of balls standing up to his people like that.
In vino veritas.
     
Cipher13
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Feb 7, 2003, 06:10 AM
 
Originally posted by Cubeoid:
Some Iraq commander/or somebody said in the press recently that Australia is making a mistake sticking their nose in matters non-related to them, he also said that ALL the Australian troops sent to fight in Iraq will die if a war begins.

In other happy news, the US president responded to Iraq saying that they will defend themselves in the outbreak of war, that he will use nuclear weapons.
Exactly right. It is none of our business.

Originally posted by snotnose:
i don't understand people that don't understand that this will be for the good.

just think for a minute about the hundreds of thousand of people saddam has killed. he continues to kill and torture people daily. whatever happens from the military action against iraq still won't be as bad as what he has already done.

he just today allowed a scientist to talk to u.n. inspectors. why do you think the scientists have been too afraid to talk in private with the u.n.? he will kill them if they say anything. why would he be afraid of them saying something? because he has stuff to hide. that is the pure facts.

i really don't understand what you all can't understand about this...
So, what is your source? CNN? I want to see your source. Have you seen these people being tortured? Have you? I ****ing doubt it.

People die every day; so kill a few more? Is that what you're saying?
     
undotwa
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Feb 7, 2003, 06:14 AM
 
Originally posted by Cipher13:
Exactly right. It is none of our business.



So, what is your source? CNN? I want to see your source. Have you seen these people being tortured? Have you? I ****ing doubt it.

People die every day; so kill a few more? Is that what you're saying?
You could say it is none of our business, however eventually we'll realise it was a big mistake just leaving an administration in the Middle East in power which could easily conquer the middle east if we leave it to develop it's biological weapons programs.
In vino veritas.
     
Cipher13
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Feb 7, 2003, 06:20 AM
 
Originally posted by undotwa:
5000 at most. Most of the Iraqi capacity is gone. Militia doesn't stretch very far - even in defending their homeland.

Howard has a lot of balls standing up to his people like that.
Uh, no - he has no right to do it. He is our representative; not our king.

     
simonjames  (op)
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Feb 7, 2003, 06:30 AM
 
IMHO The Australian Public will only support a UN-led push into Iraq and not America by itself.

Hell, for the first time in Australian history the Senate cast a vote of no confidence in the Australian PM due ot his Bush-supporting/pro-war stance.

And what does Howard care? He would never have made another term in office anyway. So much for party-political lines - he is screwing his party well and good. And going against the wishes of the Australian public - history will damn Howard as an idiot.
     
undotwa
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Feb 7, 2003, 06:34 AM
 
Originally posted by Cipher13:
Uh, no - he has no right to do it. He is our representative; not our king.

He has executive power. He can declare war.

No need for parliament, or the senate.
In vino veritas.
     
undotwa
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Feb 7, 2003, 06:37 AM
 
Originally posted by simonjames:
IMHO The Australian Public will only support a UN-led push into Iraq and not America by itself.

Hell, for the first time in Australian history the Senate cast a vote of no confidence in the Australian PM due ot his Bush-supporting/pro-war stance.

And what does Howard care? He would never have made another term in office anyway. So much for party-political lines - he is screwing his party well and good. And going against the wishes of the Australian public - history will damn Howard as an idiot.
Howard is far from screwing his party.

I doubt he will run for the next election anyway.

There is no opposition to howard, Crean is hardly a viable opposition.

The Senate? Bah. They are dominated by left wing greenies, constructed similar to that of the European Parliament. All the Senators (at least most of them) are anti-Bush, anti-American Greenies.
In vino veritas.
     
undotwa
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Feb 7, 2003, 06:39 AM
 
Originally posted by simonjames:
IMHO The Australian Public will only support a UN-led push into Iraq and not America by itself.

Hell, for the first time in Australian history the Senate cast a vote of no confidence in the Australian PM due ot his Bush-supporting/pro-war stance.

And what does Howard care? He would never have made another term in office anyway. So much for party-political lines - he is screwing his party well and good. And going against the wishes of the Australian public - history will damn Howard as an idiot.
I may not agree with all of Howard's policies, but Howard is far from an idiot. The labour party is free to take a more liberal approach because they are the opposition, what they say doesn't really matter. If Labour was in power, they will adopt similar policies to what Howard did like they have in the past.
In vino veritas.
     
simonjames  (op)
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Feb 7, 2003, 06:57 AM
 
It will be interesting to see what happens in the following months.
This is how I see Australian politics fanning out:-
Due to Howard's stance the Senate will block all legislation and (if my view on the public opinion is correct) Howard will have no choice but to call an election (a double disillusionment or something) and this will sweep Labour to victory. And then Labour would have to remove the troops from the middle east.


I was too young to remember the Governor General dismissing the PM Gough Whitlam in '75 - what chance do you think Hollingsworth would do that to Howard? Somehow I think he is too busy travelling and redecorating to even know what is happening out of his own underwear.
     
Cubeoid
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Feb 7, 2003, 07:00 AM
 
Originally posted by snotnose:
whatever happens from the military action against iraq still won't be as bad as what he has already done.
You're being very naive here.
     
undotwa
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Feb 7, 2003, 07:08 AM
 
Originally posted by simonjames:
It will be interesting to see what happens in the following months.
This is how I see Australian politics fanning out:-
Due to Howard's stance the Senate will block all legislation and (if my view on the public opinion is correct) Howard will have no choice but to call an election (a double disillusionment or something) and this will sweep Labour to victory. And then Labour would have to remove the troops from the middle east.


I was too young to remember the Governor General dismissing the PM Gough Whitlam in '75 - what chance do you think Hollingsworth would do that to Howard? Somehow I think he is too busy travelling and redecorating to even know what is happening out of his own underwear.
Ummm nooo....

Gough Whitlam was a completely different scenario, he was sending the Australian economy down the path of Argentinia (he modeled his economic policies on various Argentinians).

Senate can't do anything, howard can declare war whether the senate likes it or not. Labour will not recall troups because they know they have to be supportive of the US or risk loosing the ANZUS alliance. Labour has always been supportive of the US, and will do so in the future.

Chance of Govornor General dismissing Howard: 1/2 %
Chance of Howard calling an election 1%

I predict Howard will win the next election, assuming he runs, which I doubt, however if he doesn't, and Peter Costello takes control of the party I seriously doubt it.
In vino veritas.
     
Cipher13
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Feb 7, 2003, 07:14 AM
 
Daniel: every time you speak, I'm amazed by your ignorance and stupidity. And every time, I tell myself you couldn't get any dumber. When will I learn better?
     
Zimphire
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Feb 7, 2003, 02:24 PM
 
Originally posted by Cipher13:
Daniel: every time you speak, I'm amazed by your ignorance and stupidity. And every time, I tell myself you couldn't get any dumber. When will I learn better?
That's a way to prove him wrong.

BTW we don't know WHAT the Gov has in plans or Iraq, so you guys that are flying the "Thousands of innocents dead!!!" FUD flag need to get over yourself.
     
snotnose
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Feb 7, 2003, 02:52 PM
 
Originally posted by Cubeoid:
You're being very naive here.
why am i so naive? saddam hussien is responsible for no less than half a million deaths. what is the problem with getting someone like that out of power as soon as possible?
Nothing is older than the idea of new

     
Zimphire
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Feb 7, 2003, 02:55 PM
 
Originally posted by snotnose:
why am i so naive? saddam hussien is responsible for no less than half a million deaths. what is the problem with getting someone like that out of power as soon as possible?
What he means is, you are being rational.
     
Lerkfish
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Feb 7, 2003, 03:46 PM
 
Originally posted by Cipher13:
I will not vote for Howard. He is Bush's bitch. I'd never have allowed him into power in the first place.

By backing Bush, he condemns us.

Great.

Bush and Howard are both ****ed up.
so....does this now allow us to say all the horrible things about you australians they've been slinging at us lately?

why cant you , a regular citizen, CHANGE THINGS? HUH? go ahead, change it.

Now that the shoe's on the other foot, you see its possible to disagree with your leader but be unable to do anything until next election.


     
undotwa
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Feb 7, 2003, 04:44 PM
 
Originally posted by Lerkfish:
so....does this now allow us to say all the horrible things about you australians they've been slinging at us lately?

why cant you , a regular citizen, CHANGE THINGS? HUH? go ahead, change it.

Now that the shoe's on the other foot, you see its possible to disagree with your leader but be unable to do anything until next election.


The Govornor General can sack him, and has sacked the Prime Minister in the past. However the likely hood of it happening again is little to none.

The PM has done some unpopular moves lately, big whoop. Latest polls show that the PM still has a lot of support.

And Cipher, shut the hell up.
In vino veritas.
     
simonjames  (op)
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Feb 7, 2003, 05:26 PM
 
If the Senate block every piece of legislation he has no alternative than to call an election. How can you govern when you can't do anything.
     
Zimphire
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Feb 7, 2003, 05:28 PM
 
Originally posted by simonjames:
If the Senate block every piece of legislation he has no alternative than to call an election. How can you govern when you can't do anything.
It's that old joke, Con is the opposite of Pro, so what would the opposite of Progress be?
     
simonjames  (op)
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Feb 7, 2003, 05:29 PM
 
I'd love to hear some views from other countries - what they think of the English backing Bush? Do they even know Australia has sent troops etc.

What do the Danes think? The French? Dutch? Germans? Italians? Belgiques? Canadians?
     
noliv
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Feb 7, 2003, 08:27 PM
 
Hi simonjames,

French gov is against war, but they will send military forces if war is declared.

French people seems to be ok with that...

I didn't know that Australia had already sent troops. And I don't know what to think about UK...

I hope that America will get a better president next time!
-noliv
     
Sarc
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Feb 7, 2003, 08:31 PM
 
my country is going to loose money because oil price will go up.
best estimate is 400 million USD
:: frankenstein / lcd-less TiBook / 1GHz / radeon 9000 64MB / 1GB RAM / w/ext. 250GB fw drive / noname usb bluetooth dongle / d-link usb 2.0 pcmcia card / X.5.8
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undotwa
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Feb 8, 2003, 05:54 AM
 
Originally posted by simonjames:
If the Senate block every piece of legislation he has no alternative than to call an election. How can you govern when you can't do anything.
Congress is specially designed to be the least efficient as possible.
In vino veritas.
     
undotwa
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Feb 8, 2003, 05:59 AM
 
Originally posted by simonjames:
If the Senate block every piece of legislation he has no alternative than to call an election. How can you govern when you can't do anything.
The senate won't do anything like that.

Your anti howardism is showing greatly.
In vino veritas.
     
theolein
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Feb 8, 2003, 09:10 AM
 
On my last trip to Oz, I remember sitting in this bloke's house in Torquay fairly bracketed on a host of stubbies watching Howards antics in Parliment on TV. The light suddenly shined as i realised that Australia is truly paradise. How many other countries can afford to have a baby chimp as PM and still live well? I am still aiming to get there permanently by my 45 th birthday. That experience was more fun than the Simpsons.

Here in Switzerland most people are angry because they're worried about their jobs for one and think that Bush and co are arrogant and have no business invading countries on some rather dubious evidence. Blair's presentation of faked documentation to the UK would be hardly necessary if there was real hard evidence that Iraq is about to invade somewhere again. But there isn't, is there?
weird wabbit
     
Zimphire
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Feb 8, 2003, 01:22 PM
 
Fact is, if they showed pics of Saddam on top of a nuclear bomb riding it like a horsie, they still would say "That isn't proof!" They are blinded by poltics and lying governments. In other words, it doesn't really matter what they think. If we have proof, and we know it, we ARE going to act upon it. Don't like it? Too bad.
     
   
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