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France, Belgium and Germany Oppose the Defence of Turkey
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undotwa
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Feb 10, 2003, 07:22 AM
 
This is really strange. The NATO alliance requires the member nations to defend eachother from any possible threats.

However, France, Belgium and Germany have vetoed any action like that to defend Turkey from any outbreak of war against Saddam Hussein.

Note: Nothing to do with ATTACKING Iraq just defending FROM Iraq.

This just shows France, Belgium, and Germany's extreme pacifism. No deploying troops under any circumstances.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/2743661.stm
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Logic
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Feb 10, 2003, 07:38 AM
 
Originally posted by undotwa:
This is really strange. The NATO alliance requires the member nations to defend eachother from any possible threats.

However, France, Belgium and Germany have vetoed any action like that to defend Turkey from any outbreak of war against Saddam Hussein.

Note: Nothing to do with ATTACKING Iraq just defending FROM Iraq.

This just shows France, Belgium, and Germany's extreme pacifism. No deploying troops under any circumstances.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/2743661.stm
They are most likelly doing this because of the fact that Iraq would never attack Turkey if the US&UK wouldn't invade Iraq!

NATO is supposed to be a defence treaty, and not an attacking and occupying treaty.

GER&FRA&BEL can't agree to this simply because of that.

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yakkiebah
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Feb 10, 2003, 07:40 AM
 
read: "Both France and Russia could veto military action through the United Nations Security Council, which is due to hear the UN inspectors' key report on Iraqi compliance this Friday."

no veto(yet)

And it doesn't show their extreme pacifism, troops have been deployed in Afganistan by these countries.

correction:

france and belgium did veto
( Last edited by yakkiebah; Feb 10, 2003 at 07:54 AM. )
     
SimeyTheLimey
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Feb 10, 2003, 08:02 AM
 
Originally posted by yakkiebah:
read: "Both France and Russia could veto military action through the United Nations Security Council, which is due to hear the UN inspectors' key report on Iraqi compliance this Friday."

no veto(yet)

And it doesn't show their extreme pacifism, troops have been deployed in Afganistan by these countries.

correction:

france and belgium did veto
Different veto. France, Germany and Belgium have vetos in the NATO military council. Actually, any NATO country does. The votes have to be unanimous.

Nevetheless if Iraq does attack Turkey, the NATO alliance is obligated to defend Turkey. It doesn't matter what Iraq says was their provocation. It would be prudent to move forces to dissuade Iraq from attacking Turkey. That would make war less likely.

As for NATO being defensive only: That hasn't been the case since NATO was used offensively to attack Serbia in the Kosovo campaign.
     
yakkiebah
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Feb 10, 2003, 08:22 AM
 
id like to add:

"In France, according to AP, officials said it was too early to start military preparations while diplomatic efforts continued to avoid war. "If Turkey was really under threat, France would be one of the first at its side," French Defense Minister Michele Alliot-Marie told reporters in Munich. "Today we don't feel that threat is there." (Albawaba.com)"
     
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Feb 10, 2003, 08:44 AM
 
Originally posted by yakkiebah:
i "Today we don't feel that threat is there." (Albawaba.com)"
Shouldn't the Turks get to decide that?
     
roger_ramjet
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Feb 10, 2003, 09:22 AM
 
Originally posted by undotwa:
This is really strange. The NATO alliance requires the member nations to defend eachother from any possible threats.

However, France, Belgium and Germany have vetoed any action like that to defend Turkey from any outbreak of war against Saddam Hussein.
Not strange, shameful. I guess now that Germany no longer has to worry about a Soviet threat, everyone else can go to hell.
     
AutoJC
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Feb 10, 2003, 09:33 AM
 
You think we REALLY are going to war with Iraq?

Bush has been tooting his horn for over a year now. Saddam is having fun toying with our paper tiger president.

If Bush had an issue with Iraq, which I think he did, then he should have acted upon it with immediacy and out of principle. As it looks now he's incredible to the world community.

Let's sit tight while these clowns decide for us Iraq's fate.
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Feb 10, 2003, 09:57 AM
 
Hold on, I thought France, Germany and Belgium were irrelevant ??
     
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Feb 10, 2003, 10:00 AM
 
Originally posted by Troll:
Hold on, I thought France, Germany and Belgium were irrelevant ??
they are irrelevant internationally, but NATO is a different, and European, beast, and they are very relevant within NATO, as those three countries are important to Europe (though their importance in the world is marginal).
     
JFischel
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Feb 10, 2003, 10:01 AM
 
Heard this on one of the Sunday morning news shows, I think it was on Fox here in the Philly area:

"Going to war without France is like going hunting with an acordion."

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Feb 10, 2003, 10:04 AM
 
furthermore, they may block preemptive support for turkey, but if an attack is initiated, they are obligated to defend.

Their reticence only shows the depth of their baseless pacifism, outright selfishness, and--given European views (especially Germans' views) towards Turks--possible racism.
     
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Feb 10, 2003, 10:09 AM
 
Originally posted by Zarqawi's Stump:
they are irrelevant internationally, but NATO is a different, and European, beast, and they are very relevant within NATO, as those three countries are important to Europe (though their importance in the world is marginal).
I was being sarcastic!

I suppose Turkey will be thrilled at the thought of a war in Iraq now. I'm sure they'll throw their full weight behind a US proposal. I'm sure they won't be asking the US for more money now that they're not going to get any from NATO. (hint - all of this is sarcastic too!)
     
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Feb 10, 2003, 10:12 AM
 
Originally posted by Zarqawi's Stump:
furthermore, they may block preemptive support for turkey, but if an attack is initiated, they are obligated to defend.


True, thats in the Nato charter: an attack on one is an attack on all. This clause was activated after 9/11, which is why there are French, German and Turkish forces in Afghanistan.

Their reticence only shows the depth of their baseless pacifism, outright selfishness, and--given European views (especially Germans' views) towards Turks--possible racism.
[/QUOTE]

Their pacifism isn't baseless. Inspections should be given a fair chance--say a year--not locked into the best invasion weather timeline the Bush administration has. Whats so selfless about that?

As for racism? C'mon! Europeans have a long history of ignoring nations on their continent in need, not just Turkey. Remember how the Europeans just sat there while Yugoslavia tore itself apart? Or when Albanian fell into chaos?
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Powerbook
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Feb 10, 2003, 10:12 AM
 
Your thread title is strongly misleading. These countries are in no way opposing the defence of Turkey. They just deny the status of war preparation, from which also defence preparations would be made.

Sidenote: Germany and Netherlands will equip Turkey with Patriot-systems.
Sidenote: There is no sense for Iraq to attack Turkey anyway.

PB.
     
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Feb 10, 2003, 10:16 AM
 
There is a strong thread of commonality here.

France is telling Turkey whether it is under threat from Iraq or not.

France is telling the U.S. whether it is under threat from Iraq or not.
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Feb 10, 2003, 10:22 AM
 
Even better:
The US of A telling the whole world who are the good ones and who are the bad ones. And the old ones and new ones, oh wait...

--------------
First dumb. Then dumber.
     
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Feb 10, 2003, 10:22 AM
 
Originally posted by MacGorilla:
As for racism?
You know little of Germany and Germans, it seems. An overhwhelming number of Germans hate Turks and treat them poorly. For all their vaunted 'high society' and 'social development' and 'Eurotopia', racism towards Turks is deep and pronounced in Germany and, to a lesser extent, other European countries.
     
yakkiebah
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Feb 10, 2003, 10:30 AM
 
Originally posted by Zarqawi's Stump:
You know little of Germany and Germans, it seems. An overhwhelming number of Germans hate Turks and treat them poorly. For all their vaunted 'high society' and 'social development' and 'Eurotopia', racism towards Turks is deep and pronounced in Germany and, to a lesser extent, other European countries.
keep it up! i feel an enlightment comming up
     
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Feb 10, 2003, 10:30 AM
 
Originally posted by Zarqawi's Stump:
You know little of Germany and Germans, it seems. An overhwhelming number of Germans hate Turks and treat them poorly. For all their vaunted 'high society' and 'social development' and 'Eurotopia', racism towards Turks is deep and pronounced in Germany and, to a lesser extent, other European countries.
Du Deutsch? Glaube nix, nur redde bla-bla. Du nix wisse.

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Feb 10, 2003, 10:38 AM
 
Originally posted by Powerbook:
Even better:
The US of A telling the whole world who are the good ones and who are the bad ones. And the old ones and new ones, oh wait...
I think Saddam has made it abundantly clear on his own that he's bad.

The U.S. doesn't have tell anyone that.
"Last time the French asked for more evidence, it rolled through France with a German flag." - David Letterman
     
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Feb 10, 2003, 10:38 AM
 
Originally posted by Powerbook:
Du Deutsch?
no I'm not, but one doesn't have to be German to recognise or comment on widespread and commonplace German racism against Turks. If such were the case, then no one would be able to comment on anything outside their nationality or education sphere (though Germany and Europe are within my sphere of education).
     
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Feb 10, 2003, 10:40 AM
 
Originally posted by NeoMac:
I think Saddam has made it abundantly clear on his own that he's bad.

The U.S. doesn't have tell anyone that.
heheheh. You're right, but cut the French and Germans some slack--it's hard for them to see anything when their noses are so far up Saddam's crack.
     
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Feb 10, 2003, 10:45 AM
 
This seems to me as just another effort on Chirac and Schr�der's part to stand up to Bush and Blair.

I'm not sure about the racism angle, although it could be a part of it.

What I do know is that Turkey will still get protection, but only from the US and Brits. And if anything happens where Turks are put at risk, the ones who will get the blame are the ones that are trying to help.

Meanwhile the French and Germans skate away responsibility free. Until it looks like victory is on it's way. Then they'll join up with the alliance and try to say they've been there the whole time.
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Feb 10, 2003, 10:53 AM
 
Originally posted by Zarqawi's Stump:
no I'm not, but one doesn't have to be German to recognise or comment on widespread and commonplace German racism against Turks. If such were the case, then no one would be able to comment on anything outside their nationality or education sphere (though Germany and Europe are within my sphere of education).
Confusing the broad german society with the german government and its obligations (while mixing everything up & having not much knowledge of facts) doesn't show much education. It sounds more like being part of a bunch of working class people, shouting "Nazis" when Germany won a football game.

:-(

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Feb 10, 2003, 10:55 AM
 
Originally posted by davesimondotcom:
Meanwhile the French and Germans skate away responsibility free.
On the contrary, if things continue down this path, I think they're going to get the wrong end of the shaft.

They still don't understand that Bush is acting out of conviction on this Iraq issue. If they keep this up, he won't think twice about breaking NATO, the U.N. and the E.U..

I think this is something Chirac & Schroeder still haven't grasped. Bush geniunely believes that Saddam is a threat to the security of the U.S. and he will do what it takes.

And I'm not saying this as ego or bragging. Bush absolutely believes this. Doubting this is the mistake in Chirac and Schroeder's calculations.
( Last edited by NeoMac; Feb 10, 2003 at 11:02 AM. )
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Powerbook
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Feb 10, 2003, 10:59 AM
 
Originally posted by davesimondotcom:
This seems to me as just another effort on Chirac and Schr�der's part to stand up to Bush and Blair.

I'm not sure about the racism angle, although it could be a part of it.

What I do know is that Turkey will still get protection, but only from the US and Brits. And if anything happens where Turks are put at risk, the ones who will get the blame are the ones that are trying to help.

Meanwhile the French and Germans skate away responsibility free. Until it looks like victory is on it's way. Then they'll join up with the alliance and try to say they've been there the whole time.
Can't you read?!
See answer above - Germany et al. will equip Turkey. Germany and France will fulfill every obligation an attack on a NATO country will cause. Why shouldn't they?!

:-(

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Feb 10, 2003, 11:03 AM
 
Originally posted by Powerbook:
Confusing the broad german society with the german government and its obligations (while mixing everything up & having not much knowledge of facts) doesn't show much education. It sounds more like being part of a bunch of working class people, shouting "Nazis" when Germany won a football game.

:-(

PB.
+1

I'm sad and disappointed after after having read this thread!
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Feb 10, 2003, 11:14 AM
 
Originally posted by Powerbook:
Confusing the broad german society with the german government and its obligations (while mixing everything up & having not much knowledge of facts) doesn't show much education.
I know what I know from experience, varied information sources, and first-hand accounts of corroborating sources. additionally, it is German society--its people--that influence Schr�der. He was losing the election, then he played the anti-American, anti-war cards and won, simply because that is the way German society and Germany people feel. Schr�der echoed their feelings and ideas in his rhetorical reelection filth. In Schroder not wanting to support Turkey, he is mirroring a strong and common current of Germany society, a current that is vehemently racist towards Turks.
It sounds more like being part of a bunch of working class people, shouting "Nazis" when Germany won a football game.
Yet more elitist and class puke. Ever stop and think how wrong this class crap is? It's ridiculous that a developed, prosperous, and allegedly 'enlightened' and educated society still devalues and ridicules working-class people. You don't need to work in academia or hold a university degree to be beyond reproach. In my experience, it is the working classes that deserves the greater respect, for they must endure elitist snobs like you.
     
davesimondotcom
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Feb 10, 2003, 11:15 AM
 
Originally posted by Powerbook:
Can't you read?!
See answer above - Germany et al. will equip Turkey. Germany and France will fulfill every obligation an attack on a NATO country will cause. Why shouldn't they?!

:-(

PB.
Yes, I can read. And what I have read shows me that the only thing that will wake up Schr�der is just that, a NATO country being attacked.
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Feb 10, 2003, 12:06 PM
 
Originally posted by Zarqawi's Stump:
I know what I know from experience, varied information sources, and first-hand accounts of corroborating sources. additionally, it is German society--its people--that influence Schr�der. He was losing the election, then he played the anti-American, anti-war cards and won, simply because that is the way German society and Germany people feel. Schr�der echoed their feelings and ideas in his rhetorical reelection filth.
Both major german parties "echoed". Schr�der does what he thinks is best for all. He risked his job when putting up the "Vertrauensfrage" for Afghanistan, Enduring Freedom etc (not much echoing there!). Iraq is another matter.

In Schroder not wanting to support Turkey, he is mirroring a strong and common current of Germany society, a current that is vehemently racist towards Turks.
RRRAHHHHH! Schr�der is supporting Turkey! Right now! And Germany was always the strongest supporter of Turkey, Germany gave the most governmental loans! Germany is biggest export & import partner for Turkey. We have x-hunded-thousand workers from Turkey, you think we kidnapped them?! The son of former chancellor Kohl is married to a turkey woman etc. etc. etc.
Your view of german-turkey relationship seems to be built from the cheapest tabloids ("Huns beat pregnant turkey virgin to death - bloody pics on page 2").

Yet more elitist and class puke. Ever stop and think how wrong this class crap is? It's ridiculous that a developed, prosperous, and allegedly 'enlightened' and educated society still devalues and ridicules working-class people. You don't need to work in academia or hold a university degree to be beyond reproach. In my experience, it is the working classes that deserves the greater respect, for they must endure elitist snobs like you. [/B]
Now you act like a looser of society, bitter against everyone who did "better" (from my and indirectly also your pov). I did not devalue anything, I was stating facts, without a valuation. So stop it. In my experience people who work much and hard (hence the working class) don't have much time, nerve or money for anything out of their "little universe" (and it's their right to do so). So that's why certain things (government maybe?) are delegated to experts.
If you don't like that natural logic you don't have much societies left, where "everyone" is equal. Try North Korea, maybe. But wait, they are part of the axis of evil. Hm.

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Feb 10, 2003, 12:28 PM
 
Originally posted by Powerbook:
I did not devalue anything, I was stating facts, without a valuation.
So it is a fact to state that I sound 'more like being part of a bunch of working class people,'?!? Your definition of 'stating fact' is savagely poor. You equated me with sounding 'working-class' when you didn't like what I said. It's clear by that and by your subsequent poison that you have a low opinion for working-class people, and that you dismiss their opinions out of hand simply because of their employment or income level. Truly disgusting and pathetic.
So that's why certain things (government maybe?) are delegated to experts. If you don't like that natural logic you don't have much societies left, where "everyone" is equal. Try North Korea, maybe.
EXPERTS?! THE GOVERNMENT IS RUN BY EXPERTS!? Geez, get over yourself and your pathetic need to justify your own elitism. Europe has serious problems with race, unemployment, socialised health care, the EU bureaucracies, extremist political parties, and a host of other ills. The working class are not the ones without the nerve, but the 'experts' and politicians--they suck Europe dry with their corruption and, like Schroder, they don't have the nerves to tackle social and economic problems. Your theory of government reeks of elitism and a distaste and devaluation of manual labour and the working class.

It is snakes like you that leech off the populace and run their countries into the ground with nauseous elitism and self-righteousness. No doubt you'd spit in my face or make jokes about me because of my employment. At least I wake up every morning and know that I treat people fairly, with consideration and respect, regardless of their 'class'.
     
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Feb 10, 2003, 12:54 PM
 
Originally posted by Zarqawi's Stump:
Their reticence only shows the depth of their baseless pacifism, outright selfishness, and--given European views (especially Germans' views) towards Turks--possible racism.
get a clue, please!

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Feb 10, 2003, 01:01 PM
 
Originally posted by deekay1:
get a clue, please!
That a boy! That showed him.
     
roger_ramjet
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Feb 10, 2003, 01:47 PM
 
Originally posted by Powerbook:
Can't you read?!
See answer above - Germany et al. will equip Turkey. Germany and France will fulfill every obligation an attack on a NATO country will cause...
I'd like a link for that assertion. The Washington Post reported exactly the opposite this morning:

In Brussels, France, Germany and Belgium blocked proposals to start planning for the deployment of AWACS surveillance planes, Patriot missiles and anti-chemical and anti-biological warfare teams to Turkey.
(my emphasis) Did Germany et al. amend their position?
     
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Feb 10, 2003, 01:49 PM
 
There's a lot more to this than meets the eye.

1. Turkey is worried war with Iraq will destabilise the region and start a Kurdish uprising. The border with Turkey and Iraq contains a large Kurdish population.

2. Turkey may say the Kurdish uprising is in-fact an invasion and retaliate. (see point 1.) Let's not forget Turkey has a terrible past at crushing minorities in its own country. You can argue the point 'till your blue in the face but the slaughter of the Armenians at the turn of the 20th was a genocide. What better authority on the subject that Hitler himself when he said he will do to the Jews what Turkey did to the Armenians. Since the world turned a blind eye.

Anyway, I digress...

3. The US, and by association the UK, need Turkey's support for any military strikes on Iraq for the simple reason of the bases.

4. Turkey is further worried that any destabilisation with hinder its goal in becoming a European union member.

5. Europe as a whole, especially Germany with it's large Turkish population, are resistant to the idea of Turkey joining the European union as this would lead to a influx of Turks to the rest of Europe. And since Turkey would be the largest member by population, as well as the poorest, the rest of Europe would need to pay out large sums of cash and resources to prop up the economy.
     
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Feb 10, 2003, 01:53 PM
 
Originally posted by Zimphire:
That a boy! That showed him.
shouldn't you be making love to your mother, or something, right now...

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Feb 10, 2003, 01:55 PM
 
Originally posted by deekay1:
shouldn't you be making love to your mother, or something, right now...







Thats only on the weekends.
     
deekay1
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Feb 10, 2003, 01:58 PM
 
Originally posted by Zimphire:







Thats only on the weekends.
oh, is that why she keeps calling me...?

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Zimphire
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Feb 10, 2003, 02:03 PM
 
deekay, did you just get through watching South Park or something?


     
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Feb 10, 2003, 05:15 PM
 
deekay, zimph, take your spat elsewhere.
     
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Feb 10, 2003, 05:18 PM
 
     
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Feb 10, 2003, 05:29 PM
 
1. I am kind of tired of the abusive mutiple personilty Al-Qaida person. His racist comments on "the majority of Germans hating Turks" are very similar to someone else claimng the majority of "Americans" hate blacks. i.e. Childish and insulting. I don't object to him being patriotic about his country, but does every one else on the planet have to do likewise? Does he follow his leaders every motion with utter reverence? Is there no room for making up one's own mind in his world view? Does it frighten him that others do not necessarily think the way he does? Does he need a target for his hatred and personal bad feelings of emptiness? I don't know and I seriously doubt he does either.

2. I am known for not being exactly pro the triple D alliance (Dubya, Dick and Don) and their , IMO rather dangerous mid east tactics at the moment. However even I wonder what the the Russians, Germans and Fench hope to achieve with their tactics of blocking the US and the UK in Iraq. Unless the aim is to antagonise the US government, which seems to be working rather well, I can't really see the purpose. Failing to provide the Patriot missiles to cover Turkey is guaranteed to only irritate the Turks, who are already not exactly happy with the fact that they are being railroaded into the war. This is not to say that Turkey has been an angel in that region in the past decade. Turkey already has substantial military forces inside northern Iraq in order to quel the Kurds there. So why doesn't somebody provide patriot missile to defend the Kurds? Not that they are entirely innocent either as a good deal of their financing comes from running drugs from Afghanistan into Europe. Perhaps some will remember that I have predicted that Europe and the US will drift further and further apart. Well, it seems to be happening faster that I thought it would.

Putin must be laughing himself to death at all this: this infighting in Nato could very deliver the wrecking ball that the Warsaw Pact was unable to do. Jaing Zhemin must be quite amused as well. At least they would probably be more amused if they didn't have borders with some of those incredibly unstable countries in that region. Moscow has probably realised after Afghanistan and Chechnya that the barrel of a gun is a bad way to subdue a nation. The clashes in Afghanistan don't seem to be getting less and I think that unless there is a substantial forreign presence there for a long time it would fall again very quickly. Perhaps all thes countries are simply worried about the fallout of an Iraqi conflict. But somehow I can't believe it. I can't somehow shake the feeling that these countries are more worried about the US than they are about Iraq.

Any ideas Simey?
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Zimphire
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Feb 10, 2003, 05:36 PM
 
Originally posted by theolein:
1. I am kind of tired of the abusive mutiple personilty Al-Qaida person. His racist comments on "the majority of Germans hating Turks" are very similar to someone else claimng the majority of "Americans" hate blacks. i.e. Childish and insulting. I don't object to him being patriotic about his country, but does every one else on the planet have to do likewise? Does he follow his leaders every motion with utter reverence? Is there no room for making up one's own mind in his world view? Does it frighten him that others do not necessarily think the way he does? Does he need a target for his hatred and personal bad feelings of emptiness? I don't know and I seriously doubt he does either.
Where is your angst against the leftys that do the same thing? At leat be consistent.
     
SimeyTheLimey
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Feb 10, 2003, 05:53 PM
 
Originally posted by theolein:
However even I wonder what the the Russians, Germans and Fench hope to achieve with their tactics of blocking the US and the UK in Iraq. Unless the aim is to antagonise the US government, which seems to be working rather well, I can't really see the purpose. Failing to provide the Patriot missiles to cover Turkey is guaranteed to only irritate the Turks
Theolein, we don't always agree. But I am in general agreement here. As you say, the US is being antagonized, and it isn't just confined to the Bush-loving right. Democrats also have commented. Joe Lieberman, for example. Equally, the Turks will be upset. Turkey has always felt that they are a second-class member of NATO. This is just going to confirm that view. And in the end, none of this is going to prevent the US from taking the action it deems necessary for the reasons discussed in this thread and elsewhere.

Whether this will mean a real divergence between the US and Europe remains to be seen. NATO has undergone severe strains before. And most of the relationship between Europe and the US has nothing to do with these sort of geo-political issues. It has to do with trade and shared cultire. As long as those interests remain strong, we can survive transitory disagreements.

Nevertheless, it is clear to me that the Iraq disagreement is becoming an ugly ulcer with the potential to grow. That's one reason why I dislike the idea of delaying a decision. The likihood of Iraq disarming voluntarily, in my view, is very low. A delay merely postpones the inevitable, and in the mean time, this ugliness will increase. It would be better to get it over with sooner, rather than later.

My other feeling is that the reasons the three countries have are very different. Russia and France, it seems to me, are being much more calculating than Germany. I'm prepared to accept that Germany's government may have a genuine aversion to war - although that didn't stop them in Kosovo and Afghanistan. But be that as it may. I can't accept that Russia, with its grisly record in Cechnyr, can seriously say they stand for peaceful settlements of international crises. That just is improbable. So they are in it for something. My personal feeling is that once France and Russia get whatever it is they want (I suspect a guaranteed slice of the pie), they will drop their objections and join the US/UK, or at least vote for an enabling resolution.
     
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Feb 10, 2003, 06:08 PM
 
Originally posted by theolein:
His racist comments on "the majority of Germans hating Turks"
check your facts, sherlock. I have NEVER said a majority of Germans hate Turks (even if I think that is the case). I know that a very large number do dislike them to a great extent, and that the racism of which I speak is pretty common. To say that a majority feel that way is premature.

furthermore, it is NOT racist on my part to make claims of German racism. Your eagerness to throw around that word is not surprising, given you and your left-wing buddies' low-ball, low-brow tactics against those you don't like or disagree with.
     
glideslope
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Feb 10, 2003, 08:10 PM
 
I don't understand all this debate?

Madona, and George Clooney are opposed to the war.

I'm convinced.
To know your Enemy, you must become your Enemy.”
Sun Tzu
     
thunderous_funker
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Feb 10, 2003, 08:17 PM
 
Originally posted by Zarqawi's Stump:
check your facts, sherlock. I have NEVER said a majority of Germans hate Turks (even if I think that is the case). I know that a very large number do dislike them to a great extent, and that the racism of which I speak is pretty common. To say that a majority feel that way is premature. [/B]
Is anti-turkish racism so rampant in Germany that Schroeder can make political hay by exploiting it or not?

You can't have it both ways.
"There he goes. One of God's own prototypes. Some kind of high powered mutant never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live, and too rare to die." -- Hunter S. Thompson
     
tie
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Feb 10, 2003, 10:00 PM
 
I read the article roger_ramjet linked to, and a similar article in the NY Times, and I am just not seeing what the argument here is about. They've blocked planning within NATO. Of course, the US will still make precautions to defend Turkey. Of course if Turkey is actually attacked NATO will come to its defense.

The physical effect is small, just to make it slightly more difficult for the US. The main effects are political, hurting NATO and Turkey's idea of its position within NATO.

Why is there an attitude that since the US has decided to go to war, France, Germany and Russia must fall right into line? There is no immediate threat from Iraq to anybody, so it's the US's responsibility to convince them. It's hard to blame the governments or their publics for not being convinced. Preemptively defending Turkey would effectively support a preemptive war they're opposed to.
     
undotwa  (op)
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Feb 11, 2003, 02:18 AM
 
Originally posted by tie:
I read the article roger_ramjet linked to, and a similar article in the NY Times, and I am just not seeing what the argument here is about. They've blocked planning within NATO. Of course, the US will still make precautions to defend Turkey. Of course if Turkey is actually attacked NATO will come to its defense.

The physical effect is small, just to make it slightly more difficult for the US. The main effects are political, hurting NATO and Turkey's idea of its position within NATO.

Why is there an attitude that since the US has decided to go to war, France, Germany and Russia must fall right into line? There is no immediate threat from Iraq to anybody, so it's the US's responsibility to convince them. It's hard to blame the governments or their publics for not being convinced. Preemptively defending Turkey would effectively support a preemptive war they're opposed to.
You may think of me as an ignorant fool, I just think of this as an anti bush sentiment. Constantly I hear people rambling on about how "Bush is the worst president in America living memory" etc... It has almost got to the point that it's fact, and the left already treats it as fact, but as matter of fact, nothing has happened to support these claims.
In vino veritas.
     
 
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