[ironknee]

Originally Posted by CRASH HARDDRIVE 

Of course, not. As I said, I don't have anything against corporations making consumer products, nor do I think that process is destroying the world.


The first part, is actually the problem: if YOU believe that too much consumption is destroying the environment, then YOU'VE got to stop consuming so much. That means, stop wanting an endless stream of shiny new consumer baubles manufactured to meet YOUR endless wants.

ok but what if i need a new laptop? you know for my work and my digital life

Originally Posted by CRASH HARDDRIVE 

If all this enviro-doomsday stuff were real then the solution would have to be a two-parter. The first, would be people that believe that action is critical, actually stepping up and taking the lead in consuming less- FOR REAL, not just with gimmicks, scams, and feel good half-measures. An ACTUAL radical lifestyle change to a simpler way of life that's more enviro-friendly on every level, not just nonsense. (That's why I applaud the very, very, very, very FEW people that actually have the courage of their convictions, and walk the walk that way, not just talk the talk.)

those very very very few people decided to be non tech. i'd say hippies are a good example of this movement. i didn't know you are one!

Originally Posted by CRASH HARDDRIVE 

The second part, would be manufacturing more of what's crucial and needed, and less of what's really just consumer toys (because the endless demand for them would go down), in the greenest possible way as well.

so again, should apple only make one laptop version? what is the line between consumer shiny toys and crucial? could it also be the difference between apple and the rest of the computer industry?

Originally Posted by CRASH HARDDRIVE 

Now, make no mistake- I'm not a believer in various enviro-doomsdays, so I don't feel that there really needs to be that much less consumption. But if I were a believer, I guess I'd have to do like most who claim do, and grant myself a pass to the REAL change that should be taking place, and go right on consuming at record levels, so long as companies like Apple give me my consumer toys with a wink and nod and tell me how "green" all my needless gadgets are.

consumerism is what america is all about. when our president sent us to war, he suggested that we all go shopping. are you anti-america?

what is " the REAL change that should be taking place"?

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

Originally Posted by ironknee 

ok but what if i need a new laptop? you know for my work and my digital life

Then by all means, get one. And an iPhone, cause sure you need that, and the AppleTV and a new PowerMac, and three of four giant monitors, and everything else in the iUniverse. By all means, consume, consume, consume! The thing is, don't blame everyone else for destroying the planet, if that's what you believe (at least by playing lip service, not changing your lifestyle) is happening.

those very very very few people decided to be non tech. i'd say hippies are a good example of this movement. i didn't know you are one!

Did I say I was? Pay attention.

so again, should apple only make one laptop version? what is the line between consumer shiny toys and crucial? could it also be the difference between apple and the rest of the computer industry?

All questions for you to answer, if you believe Apple and the rest of the computer industry, and the rest of ANY consumer industry is tied to environmental destruction by what they do. They and everyone else only manufacture what YOU and everyone else wants and will line up to buy. If that process is destroying the environment, step one isn't to really expect their meeting consumer demand to drive ANY real effort at 'saaaaving the planet'.

You and everyone else who believes in environmental destruction based on consumption changing your habits is step one. Yeah I know, that's the HARD way. But then, I'm convinced, anything REAL usually is. Meanwhile, half-measures, feel-good pap, "don't change a thing, just pretend it's all green" and all that is a LOT more fun- you get to have your cake and eat it too! Really, I don't blame anyone for going that route, because I think deep down most people don't really believe any of this is as "critical" as they've been making believe. I just ask that some among that crowd be a *smidge* less sanctimonious when crowing on about consumption and the environment as if it's always everyone else's fault though.

consumerism is what america is all about. when our president sent us to war, he suggested that we all go shopping. are you anti-america?

Now you're just being silly. I'm not the one who believes people shouldn't buy whatever they want. I'm the one saying to you: YOU (yes, that means YOU) can't do so and believe YOU (yes that means, YOU) have no environmental impact as a consequence just because someone sells you on the notion that they've made your consumer treadmill greener. If all the CRITICAL, "we must act now!" crap about the environment is true, then really, believers of that have NO BUSINESS being on the endless consumer treadmill. Sorry if spelling it out offends some, but it's just true. Walking the walk would be more critical in heading off supposed imminent environmental destruction, than just yapping the yap.

what is " the REAL change that should be taking place"?

I've spelled it out: those that believe consumption is the root of the environmental destruction, THEMSELVES consuming less, not relying on companies to placate them by manufacturing the endless treadmill of consumer crap they demand "more green". Need it spelled out yet another way, or is that clear enough?

[ironknee]

Originally Posted by CRASH HARDDRIVE 

Then by all means, get one. And an iPhone, cause sure you need that, and the AppleTV and a new PowerMac, and three of four giant monitors, and everything else in the iUniverse. By all means, consume, consume, consume! The thing is, don't blame everyone else for destroying the planet, if that's what you believe (at least by playing lip service, not changing your lifestyle) is happening.

i'm not blaming everyone else. i know i am a consumer living in the most consumer nation in the world...until china eclipes us

i know i have a so called carbon footprint" and i am trying to reduce it by recycling, i use the new lightbulbs to save money, i take public transportation, etc... and i know i am not perfect.

and by the way, who is saying that consumerism is destroying the planet? did I?

Originally Posted by CRASH HARDDRIVE 

Did I say I was? Pay attention.

it was a joke.

Originally Posted by CRASH HARDDRIVE 

All questions for you to answer, if you believe Apple and the rest of the computer industry, and the rest of ANY consumer industry is tied to environmental destruction by what they do. They and everyone else only manufacture what YOU and everyone else wants and will line up to buy. If that process is destroying the environment, step one isn't to really expect their meeting consumer demand to drive ANY real effort at 'saaaaving the planet'.

again it's the free market...right?

are you suggesting...
a) in order to be "green", apple and other computer companies should stop making product to entice us to buy them?

b) we "environmentalists" should not consume anything even computers to be true to the effor to save the planet?

Originally Posted by CRASH HARDDRIVE 

You and everyone else who believes in environmental destruction based on consumption changing your habits is step one. Yeah I know, that's the HARD way. But then, I'm convinced, anything REAL usually is. Meanwhile, half-measures, feel-good pap, "don't change a thing, just pretend it's all green" and all that is a LOT more fun- you get to have your cake and eat it too! Really, I don't blame anyone for going that route, because I think deep down most people don't really believe any of this is as "critical" as they've been making believe. I just ask that some among that crowd be a *smidge* less sanctimonious when crowing on about consumption and the environment as if it's always everyone else's fault though.

wow..."I think deep down most people don't really believe any of this is as "critical" as they've been making believe."

please explain

also do you recycle? as I explained in an earlier post, here in nyc it's the law.

if you do, do you resent doing so because, as you say, it's not as critical as they say?



[QUOTE=CRASH HARDDRIVE;3582032]Now you're just being silly. I'm not the one who believes people shouldn't buy whatever they want. I'm the one saying to you: YOU (yes, that means YOU) can't do so and believe YOU (yes that means, YOU) have no environmental impact as a consequence just because someone sells you on the notion that they've made your consumer treadmill greener. If all the CRITICAL, "we must act now!" crap about the environment is true, then really, believers of that have NO BUSINESS being on the endless consumer treadmill. Sorry if spelling it out offends some, but it's just true. Walking the walk would be more critical in heading off supposed imminent environmental destruction, than just yapping the yap./QUOTE]


1) i never said i didn't have an impact on the environment as a consumer. see previous

2) how about this: your son or daughter needs a computer for school.

they need to get one so from all the computers from all the manufactures they picked the one that is a little "greener" than the others...toxic stuff, smaller packaging, etc...YES it's a fraction of what they all do but...it's a start no? what if this becomes an industry wide movement from consumer choice? that's good right?

Originally Posted by CRASH HARDDRIVE 

I've spelled it out: those that believe consumption is the root of the environmental destruction, THEMSELVES consuming less, not relying on companies to placate them by manufacturing the endless treadmill of consumer crap they demand "more green". Need it spelled out yet another way, or is that clear enough?

see above

also, green consumershave been consuming less....remember they are the ones who started this movement:
no plastic bags from groceries are replaced by reusable bags....cars that get more to the mile has changed the auto industry....

[peeb]

The problem with the idea that 'if you believe that consumption is destroying the planet you should choose not to do it' is that it does not just affect the consumer making the choice - it affects everyone. It's like if we had left lead in gasoline, and said 'if you think it is harmful, don't use it'.

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by ironknee 

seriously?

what if i throw out my mac pro g3 b/w 350 mhz?

SCAMMER! You're trying to get me to pick up some imitation, knock-off mac. I'm only picking up genuine worthless, obsolete macs. There is no mac pro g3. No, I will not be picking up 6400s, or Quadras either.

BTW, I'm currently using a dual 2Ghz G5 PPC, I resent you comparing this to any G3 config.

[subego]

Originally Posted by ironknee 

ok birthday boy, what is your opinion?

I love animals and plants and I would kill every single last one of them to maintain humanity's existence.

All Mother Nature wants to do is kill me first, so she can suck it.

[ironknee]

Originally Posted by subego 

I love animals and plants and I would kill every single last one of them to maintain humanity's existence.

All Mother Nature wants to do is kill me first, so she can suck it.

::

[peeb]

I understand that this is a joke, but it is an opportunity to point out that a lot of people seem to think that people exist separate from the rest of 'nature' and that the two can be separated in terms of their essential health and well being.

[ironknee]

yes yes...peeb you are right

with 6.5 billion people so far i don't think the human race is about to extinct anytime soon....and now that we can clone animals for food, i don't think we on this board will starve (but the fact that there are people on earth that are starving is shameful)

subego, can i ask one more question? where does religion fit into this world view of yours?

i believe we humans are part of nature and if we corrupt one or any part of nature, we are harming ourselves...

as i understand it, some religious people think nature is "fallen" and is in essence, evil. and any attempt to save nature (ie earth, environment etc) is doing no difference (nature must be used and controlled for our benefit)

and of course the other thing is, you know, the end of the world is coming and why waste any energy saving a doomed planet

just curious,

also ebuddy,

Originally Posted by ebuddy 

SCAMMER! You're trying to get me to pick up some imitation, knock-off mac. I'm only picking up genuine worthless, obsolete macs. There is no mac pro g3. No, I will not be picking up 6400s, or Quadras either.

BTW, I'm currently using a dual 2Ghz G5 PPC, I resent you comparing this to any G3 config.

you are right, i ment power mac g3 lol!

but the question is, you may pick up the good ones but what about all the bad ones mostly pcs? what happens to all the toxic stuff that someone will have to suffer from because you and i know poor people from 3 world countries "recycles the parts to earn a living.

[peeb]

Originally Posted by ironknee 

yes yes...peeb you are right

with 6.5 billion people so far i don't think the human race is about to extinct anytime soon....

That's exactly what the Easter Islanders thought too.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by peeb 

That's exactly what the Easter Islanders thought too.

If they had 6.5 billion people on Easter Island, no wonder they died out.

[ShortcutToMoncton]

[peeb]

Oh, I see what you did - you didn't have a sensible response, so you made a joke by pretending that you had misunderstood my post! Well done, I get it...

[tie]

Originally Posted by CRASH HARDDRIVE 

Of course, not. As I said, I don't have anything against corporations making consumer products, nor do I think that process is destroying the world.

The first part, is actually the problem: if YOU believe that too much consumption is destroying the environment, then YOU'VE got to stop consuming so much. That means, stop wanting an endless stream of shiny new consumer baubles manufactured to meet YOUR endless wants.

If all this enviro-doomsday stuff were real then the solution would have to be a two-parter. The first, would be people that believe that action is critical, actually stepping up and taking the lead in consuming less- FOR REAL, not just with gimmicks, scams, and feel good half-measures. An ACTUAL radical lifestyle change to a simpler way of life that's more enviro-friendly on every level, not just nonsense. (That's why I applaud the very, very, very, very FEW people that actually have the courage of their convictions, and walk the walk that way, not just talk the talk.)

The second part, would be manufacturing more of what's crucial and needed, and less of what's really just consumer toys (because the endless demand for them would go down), in the greenest possible way as well.

Now, make no mistake- I'm not a believer in various enviro-doomsdays, so I don't feel that there really needs to be that much less consumption. But if I were a believer, I guess I'd have to do like most who claim do, and grant myself a pass to the REAL change that should be taking place, and go right on consuming at record levels, so long as companies like Apple give me my consumer toys with a wink and nod and tell me how "green" all my needless gadgets are.

So you don't want to make any sacrifice, but you want everyone else to sacrifice. Sorry, makes no sense.

I don't myself believe in that "islamofascism" poses a dire danger to the survival of the US, but think that those of us who do believe so should be donating all their savings to the Iraq war effort before volunteering to go over there themselves. I applaud the very, very, very, very FEW people that actually have the courage of their convictions, and walk the walk, and laugh at those like Crash who expect everyone else to act irrationally.

[ShortcutToMoncton]

Originally Posted by peeb 

Oh, I see what you did - you didn't have a sensible response, so you made a joke by pretending that you had misunderstood my post! Well done, I get it...

What – the post stating as fact speculations about what the Easter Islanders were thinking 300 years ago?


greg

[peeb]

Oh, this will be good. I suppose in addition to global climate change denial you want to offer an alternative explanation to the Easter Island ecological collapse that doesn't, erm, revolve around human caused ecological collapse? God ahead - make a fool out of yourself. Again.

[smacintush]

Originally Posted by peeb 

Oh, this will be good. I suppose in addition to global climate change denial you want to offer an alternative explanation to the Easter Island ecological collapse that doesn't, erm, revolve around human caused ecological collapse? God ahead - make a fool out of yourself. Again.

Question one: Did you really just accuse Greg of being a "global climate change denier"?

Question two: Do you know how to read your own posts?

[ShortcutToMoncton]

Originally Posted by smacintush 

Question one: Did you really just accuse Greg of being a "global climate change denier"?

No wonder I can't make you or ebuddy into believers; apparently no one else can even figure out which side I'm on...

greg

[peeb]

When all you do is make snide pedantic remarks that derail conversations, is it any wonder no one knows what you are trying to say? Now, back to the point...

[ebuddy]

greg, this is not your fault.

peeb embodies what I find most detestable about this issue. They've been taught at the AGW church of the insane that upon any challenge to their dogma they must chant; POOPY-BUTT STINK FACE!!! It's in their Scriptures;

"But take heed to yourselves; for the oil industry will deliver you up to councils; and flog you in their synagogues and churches; and you will be dragged before governors and kings for AGW's sake, to bear testimony to global warming. And the gospel must first be preached to all nations cold and hot alike for they are all subject to anthropogenic global warming. And when they bring you to trial and deliver you up, do not be anxious beforehand what you are to say, but say "poopy-butt stink face", for it is not you who speak, but the Spirit of AGW speaking through you. And brother will deliver up brother to death, and the father his child, and children will rise against parents and have them put to death; and you will be hated by all for AGW's sake. But he, beit man or polar bear; who endures to the end will be saved from the oily death."

This is the way of the natural climate change denier.