[ironknee]

for the macbook air, steve talked about the steps apple is taking to help save the environment.

i applaud apple for this but i remember there are people here on this forum that thinks environmentalism is not needed, fake, a left wing conspiracy, etc. the "there is no global warming" crowd.

so, is apple doing the right thing or is this a only pr stunt that is based on a lie?

please explain.

[smacintush]

I don't think too many think that there is something "wrong" with environmentalism.

I know I don't.

I think that there is a difference between being environmentally conscious and being an environmentalist wacko.

What Apple is doing is exactly right. Their efforts aren't being legislated by some enviro-fascist bureaucrat in DC. They are letting the market, their image and perhaps their conscience guide them.

[Chuckit]

I think it's good Apple is working to be environmentally friendly. I also think the people who keep criticizing them for not being environmentally friendly enough are a bunch of publicity whores.

[mduell]

They're responding to the Greenpeace attacks. BFRs and Hg have little to do with global warming/climate change/whatever it's called this week.

[subego]

Originally Posted by ironknee 

so, is apple doing the right thing or is this a only pr stunt that is based on a lie?

please explain.

What leads you to phrase this as a binary argument?

[ironknee]

see the above post

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

Yes, by mass producing yet another plastic bauble that's really not specifically *needed* by anyone over the myriad of other plastic bauble's already available, Apple is indeed helping to saaaaaaaave the environment. Sure. Right.

Look, basically I've got nothing against a huge corporation making YET ANOTHER consumer bauble, so that the most spoiled society in the history of the world can have yet another toy to play with- that's what huge corporations do for profit, and spoiled consumers do for gratification of owning another toy.

But trying to pretend there's anything really to do with saaaaaaaving the environment involved in manufacturing yet another (on the whole needless) consumer toy? Get off it. That's a corporate marketing gimmick to make some among the aforementioned spoiled consumers believe that they can yet again, have every kind of plastic bauble known to man, while they contribute nothing to the environmental damage they themselves believe is happening as a result of everyone else consuming too much.

[smacintush]

Originally Posted by CRASH HARDDRIVE 

Yes, by mass producing yet another plastic bauble that's really not specifically *needed* by anyone over the myriad of other plastic bauble's already available, Apple is indeed helping to saaaaaaaave the environment. Sure. Right.

Look, basically I've got nothing against a huge corporation making YET ANOTHER consumer bauble, so that the most spoiled society in the history of the world can have yet another toy to play with- that's what huge corporations do for profit, and spoiled consumers do for gratification of owning another toy.

But trying to pretend there's anything really to do with saaaaaaaving the environment involved in manufacturing yet another (on the whole needless) consumer toy? Get off it. That's a corporate marketing gimmick to make some among the aforementioned spoiled consumers believe that they can yet again, have every kind of plastic bauble known to man, while they contribute nothing to the environmental damage they themselves believe is happening as a result of everyone else consuming too much.

I agree with you but if there is a way to make the product a LITTLE "greener" then that's a good thing. Whether they are doing it to saaaaaave the environment or as a gimmick is irrelevant.

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

Originally Posted by smacintush 

I agree with you but if there is a way to make the product a LITTLE "greener" then that's a good thing. Whether they are doing it to saaaaaave the environment or as a gimmick is irrelevant.

As I said, I've got nothing against big corporations making things and selling them for profit, and if they can make them a "little greener" than otherwise, then sure, do so. Great. The thing is, we're not talking about a corporation that makes absolutely crucial needs for mankind's existence that we couldn't live without. What we're really talking about, is a consumer bauble- another shiny toy for people to fawn over. Talking about making more consumer baubles and anything to do with the environment is just silly- the fact that there's YET ANOTHER consumer bauble being mass produced for the same crowd that consumes more than anyone else on the planet, trumps anything to do with any specific process that made that bauble a 'little greener'.

Again, don't get me wrong, I'm not one who believes that making and using laptops, automobiles and light bulbs is going to destroy the planet, but for those that do, isn't it terribly convenient that you can buy YET ANOTHER mass produced consumer bauble, and tell yourself that it's environmentally friendly, when in reality, all you're really doing is more non-essential consuming.

[subego]

Originally Posted by ironknee 

see the above post

Could you put a little more effort into the clarity department?

[olePigeon]

Apple's making a big deal out of it because Greenpeace loves to target them. Greenpeace admitted that they go after Apple (who was actually one of the greener companies to start with) simply because it bring headlines and attention to Greenpeace.

[ironknee]

Originally Posted by CRASH HARDDRIVE 

As I said, I've got nothing against big corporations making things and selling them for profit, and if they can make them a "little greener" than otherwise, then sure, do so. Great. The thing is, we're not talking about a corporation that makes absolutely crucial needs for mankind's existence that we couldn't live without. What we're really talking about, is a consumer bauble- another shiny toy for people to fawn over. Talking about making more consumer baubles and anything to do with the environment is just silly- the fact that there's YET ANOTHER consumer bauble being mass produced for the same crowd that consumes more than anyone else on the planet, trumps anything to do with any specific process that made that bauble a 'little greener'.

Again, don't get me wrong, I'm not one who believes that making and using laptops, automobiles and light bulbs is going to destroy the planet, but for those that do, isn't it terribly convenient that you can buy YET ANOTHER mass produced consumer bauble, and tell yourself that it's environmentally friendly, when in reality, all you're really doing is more non-essential consuming.

so apple should just shut down?

or, since apple is about making products--in this case a laptop--that all the other companies like dell, hp etc are doing

AND we want new computers (people are buying them) then isn't it a good thing that apple is doing something about toxic chemicals that harm the earth?

[ironknee]

Originally Posted by subego 

What leads you to phrase this as a binary argument?

ummm...well either you think it's a good thing or you think "saaaaaving the earth" is a dumb idea.

[peeb]

Originally Posted by smacintush 

I don't think too many think that there is something "wrong" with environmentalism.

I know I don't.

I think that there is a difference between being environmentally conscious and being an environmentalist wacko.

What Apple is doing is exactly right. Their efforts aren't being legislated by some enviro-fascist bureaucrat in DC. They are letting the market, their image and perhaps their conscience guide them.

'Envirofascist'?
So, if I want to put a toxic waste incinerator in on your street, that's just fine? You wouldn't want some fascist telling me not to, would you? After all, if it's not wanted, the market will drive me out of business, right?
'Environmental wackos' are people who think that not shitting where you eat is an option that we can let the market decide.

[smacintush]

Originally Posted by peeb 

'Envirofascist'?
So, if I want to put a toxic waste incinerator in on your street, that's just fine? You wouldn't want some fascist telling me not to, would you? After all, if it's not wanted, the market will drive me out of business, right?

'Environmental wackos' are people who think that not shitting where you eat is an option that we can let the market decide.

An environmentalist will work to tell you turn your thermostat down.

An enviro-fascist will try to remote-control your thermostat.

As far as the market goes, anyone who would rather rely on the government than the people is a damn fool and it is exactly why our society continues to degrade.

[peeb]

So, if I want to put a toxic waste incinerator in on your street, that's just fine? You wouldn't want some fascist telling me not to, would you? After all, if it's not wanted, the market will drive me out of business, right?

[Andrew Stephens]

I hate the phrase saving the environment. Are we? Are we really? Surely we are trying to save ourselves. The environment will do just fine without us when we've gone.

Lets get selfish about this and focus on saving us. Also lets get over this green consumerism crud. There is nothing environmental about how we live. We can either carry on with our current consumer mindset ("green" or not) and let nature cull us out in it's own good time or find some wholly different way to go about things. There is nothing, nothing , environmentally friendly about making computers, cars or any of the other toys we love so much.

[ironknee]

Originally Posted by smacintush 

An environmentalist will work to tell you turn your thermostat down.

An enviro-fascist will try to remote-control your thermostat.

As far as the market goes, anyone who would rather rely on the government than the people is a damn fool and it is exactly why our society continues to degrade.

damn, i lost my previous post due to macnn being too busy

i would say greenpeace is the extreme example of environmentalists, agreed.

but who in government is trying to remote control my heat?

btw, do you have to recycle? here in nyc it's the law and i do. do you resent recycling because it's the government telling you to as well as mankind has no influence in the environment (global warming) etc?

just curious that's all

[smacintush]

Originally Posted by peeb 

So, if I want to put a toxic waste incinerator in on your street, that's just fine? You wouldn't want some fascist telling me not to, would you? After all, if it's not wanted, the market will drive me out of business, right?

I guess my first response of wasn't clear enough.


Let me re-phrase my answer:


OK, here…let me respond properly:

So, if I want to put a toxic waste incinerator in on your street, that's just fine?

No, it's not.

You wouldn't want some fascist telling me not to, would you?

For the most part, no. Unless you really like such things, in which case I wouldn't mind.

After all, if it's not wanted, the market will drive me out of business, right?

Perhaps, perhaps not.

There, how's that?

[peeb]

Originally Posted by smacintush 

I guess my first response of wasn't clear enough.

No, it wasn't clear at all - it looked as though you were confused, and had no thought through the issues at all.

Originally Posted by smacintush 

OK, here…let me respond properly:
No, it's not.

Why not, surely what I do on my own property is just fine?

Originally Posted by smacintush 

For the most part, no. Unless you really like such things, in which case I wouldn't mind.

So why isn't it ok for me to set up a toxic waste incinerator? Surely you wouldn't be fascist enough to tell me not to? You're not being clear about whether it is ok for me to pollute your street or not.

Originally Posted by smacintush 

Perhaps, perhaps not.
There, how's that?

Unclear and ill thought through. Par for the course from you, I guess.

[ironknee]

Originally Posted by Andrew Stephens 

I hate the phrase saving the environment. Are we? Are we really? Surely we are trying to save ourselves. The environment will do just fine without us when we've gone.

Lets get selfish about this and focus on saving us. Also lets get over this green consumerism crud. There is nothing environmental about how we live. We can either carry on with our current consumer mindset ("green" or not) and let nature cull us out in it's own good time or find some wholly different way to go about things. There is nothing, nothing , environmentally friendly about making computers, cars or any of the other toys we love so much.

a) when we've gone? explain

b) ok let's save ourselves! cleaner air for us the breathe, cleaner water for us to swim in and catch our seafood from, less waste...it has to go somewhere!

c) let nature cull us out in it's own good time? explain

d) find some wholly different way to go about things...i agree with this...you know invent a new way to fuel our cars so it gets more miles and less pollution that you and i breath in

e) agreed with the last statement...but what if we made them better, safer, with less waste?

[smacintush]

Originally Posted by ironknee 

but who in government is trying to remote control my heat?

Not you, Californians.
WorldNetDaily: Big Brother to control thermostats in homes?
Critics cool to 'smart thermostat' proposal

btw, do you have to recycle?

No.

do you resent recycling because it's the government telling you to

No.

[peeb]

Originally Posted by ironknee 

a) when we've gone? explain

Nuked ourself or destroyed the planet's capacity to support us.

Originally Posted by ironknee 

b) ok let's save ourselves! cleaner air for us the breathe, cleaner water for us to swim in and catch our seafood from, less waste...it has to go somewhere!

What has to go somewhere? I think the idea is to create less waste.

Originally Posted by ironknee 

c) let nature cull us out in it's own good time? explain

I think he's alluding to the idea of the planet being a self correcting system. If we destroy it's capacity to support us, nature will 'cull us' if you will.

Originally Posted by ironknee 

d) find some wholly different way to go about things...i agree with this...you know invent a new way to fuel our cars so it gets more miles and less pollution that you and i breath in

e) agreed with the last statement...but what if we made them better, safer, with less waste?

Then you increase the time before you destroy the planet's capacity to support us - unless you are reducing to the point where you are only consuming and polluting within the planet's capacity to regenerate.

It's the equivalent of spending income, not capital - right now we're tearing through the capital account, not living off the interest.

[ironknee]

Originally Posted by smacintush 

Not you, Californians.
WorldNetDaily: Big Brother to control thermostats in homes?
Critics cool to 'smart thermostat' proposal

wow no i do not like that! but that sounds more like saving face by the electric company for the brown outs

you don't recycle? wow ok

[smacintush]

Originally Posted by peeb 

No, it wasn't clear at all - it looked as though you were confused, and had no thought through the issues at all.

Oh, I've thought it through. I don't think you agree with my conclusions however.

Why not, surely what I do on my own property is just fine?

Yes it is.

So why isn't it ok for me to set up a toxic waste incinerator?

Because I wouldn't like it.

Surely you wouldn't be fascist enough to tell me not to?

If I…your neighbor…told you not to then it wouldn't be fascism. Maybe you should look that word up…

You're not being clear about whether it is ok for me to pollute your street or not.

Actually, I said very specifically that it's not ok with me.

Unclear and ill thought through.

Thank you.

Par for the course from you, I guess.

Perhaps, perhaps not.

[peeb]

Originally Posted by smacintush 

Oh, I've thought it through. I don't think you agree with my conclusions however.

You've yet to say what your conclusions are.

Originally Posted by smacintush 

Actually, I said very specifically that it's not ok with me.

So let me get this straight. I can set up a toxic waste incinerator next to your house. You don't want me to, but you can't do anything about it because, while it is fine for you to express your concern, it is fascism if your elected official does anything about it?
The market will sort it out, but, since I'll be paid by people who live somewhere else to dispose of toxic waste somewhere where it won't affect them, that'll work out just fine?
How does your 'non-fascist' fantasy world work exactly?

[smacintush]

Originally Posted by ironknee 

wow no i do not like that! but that sounds more like saving face by the electric company for the brown outs

Fascism in the guise of the greater good is still fascism.

you don't recycle? wow ok

I didn't say that. You asked if I had to like you do in NY. I live in a rural area of a poor county.

I recycle our plastic and aluminum. I have to drive it to the other side of the county to the recycle center.

[peeb]

Originally Posted by smacintush 

Fascism in the guise of the greater good is still fascism.

I don't think that word means what you think it means. It sounds like you have not given this any thought at all - I suppose that you think that anything that the government does to restrict your freedom in the name of the greater good is fascism? If so, then you are a minority of one.

[ironknee]

Originally Posted by smacintush 

Fascism in the guise of the greater good is still fascism.

but it's the utility companies that want that to happen....they are billion dollar companies

Originally Posted by smacintush 

I didn't say that. You asked if I had to like you do in NY. I live in a rural area of a poor county.

I recycle our plastic and aluminum. I have to drive it to the other side of the county to the recycle center.

ok so you made me ask...why do you recycle when you don't have to? and don't believe in?

[peeb]

Don't expect anything except nonsense and evasion - he's wrong, he's been called on it, and he's trying to save some face by not admitting it.

[smacintush]

Originally Posted by peeb 

You've yet to say what your conclusions are.

Huh…I MUST have because you were drawing conclusions about what I thought would be ok and I know that YOU would NEVER put words in my mouth…would you?

So let me get this straight. I can set up a toxic waste incinerator next to your house.

I never said you can or can't. I said it's not ok.

You don't want me to, but you can't do anything about it

Yes I can.

because, while it is fine for you to express your concern, it is fascism if your elected official does anything about it?

No, not necessarily. You see, in general if there is something that will be put up that we don't like all the people in the area can go and lobby the county not to allow them here. That's not fascism.

How you doin' looking up that word?

The market will sort it out,

It might. That and public outcry.

but, since I'll be paid by people who live somewhere else to dispose of toxic waste somewhere where it won't affect them, that'll work out just fine?

Not in my backyard. That's about right. You can take your incinerator proposal somewhere else there they can decide whether they want you or not. That or I can move.

You got something against people deciding for themselves?

How does your 'non-fascist' fantasy world work exactly?

So, living in a non-fascist world is a fantasy now? Interesting.

[peeb]

Originally Posted by smacintush 

No, not necessarily. You see, in general if there is something that will be put up that we don't like all the people in the area can go and lobby the county not to allow them here. That's not fascism.

So what are all these people going to do about it? Sounds like they are organizing into a structure that looks at what is allowed and not allowed in the place they live... Sounds like (shudder...) a government telling me what I can and can't build!
The fact of the matter is that you need zoning, and without it, you are going to reinvent it and call it something else. Move on, you've lost this one.

[smacintush]

[QUOTE=peeb;3581033]I don't think that word means what you think it means. It sounds like you have not given this any thought at all - I suppose that you think that anything that the government does to restrict your freedom in the name of the greater good is fascism?

Oppression is oppression. I think that the government does way too much "for the greater good". Yes.

I admit I'm using that word very broadly.

If so, then you are a minority of one.

That wouldn't bother me at all.

[peeb]

So you are saying that banning lead in gasoline, for example, is 'oppression', and 'fascism'? Well, it's going to be difficult talking to you if you insist on having your own private definition for each word.

[smacintush]

Originally Posted by ironknee 

but it's the utility companies that want that to happen....they are billion dollar companies

Hence the word "guise". It always starts this way doesn't it? "We NEED this control so that we can properly manage an emergency situation." But where does it lead? Slippery slope and all that.

ok so you made me ask...why do you recycle when you don't have to?

Because I'm not real keen on being wasteful. It seems to me that it's pretty dumb to put things into landfills that can be reused.

and don't believe in?

Aaaaaand WHEN did I say that?

[smacintush]

Originally Posted by peeb 

Don't expect anything except nonsense and evasion

I may have been a little…difficult…yes…

he's wrong

No I'm not.

he's been called on it

No, you've been trying to beat me up your straw-man argument. You get the frustration you deserve.

and he's trying to save some face by not admitting it.

I've never had a problem admitting when I'm wrong…

[TETENAL]

Originally Posted by smacintush 

What Apple is doing is exactly right. Their efforts aren't being legislated by some enviro-fascist bureaucrat in DC. They are letting the market, their image and perhaps their conscience guide them.

Nonsense. They are doing what is legislated by RoHS. Nothing more.

[peeb]

Originally Posted by smacintush 

I may have been a little…difficult…yes

Well, if you want people to think differently about you, you could always try addressing points people make, and making meaningful responses to others, otherwise you just look like a dick who doesn't have anything to say.

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by smacintush 

I've never had a problem admitting when I'm wrong…

This is true, and while I have disagreed with you on numerous topics, I respect you for this quality.

Clearly peeb and ironknee aren't comprehending your answers to their inquiries, and it's certainly not your fault. I think they are intentionally misunderstanding you and trying to put meanings into your text.

Not that I agree 100% with your stance on this topics, but I assure you, I disagree with them even more.

My thoughts on Apple's "green" announcement: It's a ruse to please the over zealous and "fascist" environmentalists. While there are those who would "poop" where they lie, most people would not. Computers are going to be made, this is a fact that cannot be dismissed. The fact that Apple is going the extra mile to make that have less of an impact on mankind is admirable.

Regarding toxic waste incinerators. You can put one in my neighborhood as long as you don't infringe on my rights to clean air, water, and soil. Otherwise I think we can find a place right next to the old toxic dump that pretty much no one lives near.

[peeb]

Originally Posted by Railroader 

Regarding toxic waste incinerators. You can put one in my neighborhood as long as you don't infringe on my rights to clean air, water, and soil. Otherwise I think we can find a place right next to the old toxic dump that pretty much no one lives near.

And there you have it - hidden in the "rights to clean air, water, and soil" that you claim to have (although I am not sure what basis you claim them on) is absolute 'fascism'. Because of course, your 'rights' place enormous restrictions on what I am allowed to do - hell, I can't even drive my lead burning car past your house any more. You fascist.

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by peeb 

And there you have it - hidden in the "rights to clean air, water, and soil" that you claim to have (although I am not sure what basis you claim them on) is absolute 'fascism'. Because of course, your 'rights' place enormous restrictions on what I am allowed to do - hell, I can't even drive my lead burning car past your house any more. You fascist.

You're one of those people who sees things in pure black and white aren't you?

[subego]

Originally Posted by ironknee 

ummm...well either you think it's a good thing or you think "saaaaaving the earth" is a dumb idea.

I don't think either of those things, because both of them are ridiculously oversimplified.

This leads back to my original question. Why is this a binary equation for you? Why are these the only options?

[peeb]

Originally Posted by Railroader 

You're one of those people who sees things in pure black and white aren't you?

Erm, no. But I seem to be talking to one. Actually, it's pretty hard to figure out what they think, because they never post anything but evasive or nonsensical comments. I think I'm done here - there is no coherent argument being made by the people I'm talking to, no meaningful responses to my questions. It's a shame people can't just quit when they have been shown to be wrong.

[smacintush]

Originally Posted by peeb 

…they have been shown to be wrong.

I must have missed this part…

You haven't shown anyone anything but a desire to try to pose leading, loaded, presumptive questions.

[ironknee]

Originally Posted by subego 

I don't think either of those things, because both of them are ridiculously oversimplified.

This leads back to my original question. Why is this a binary equation for you? Why are these the only options?

ok birthday boy, what is your opinion?

[ironknee]

Originally Posted by smacintush 

Hence the word "guise". It always starts this way doesn't it? "We NEED this control so that we can properly manage an emergency situation." But where does it lead? Slippery slope and all that.

maybe. i would say this attempt by big utilities to control our heat is more extreme than even green peace

QUOTE=smacintush;3581063]Because I'm not real keen on being wasteful. It seems to me that it's pretty dumb to put things into landfills that can be reused. [/QUOTE]

i agree! so this brings me back to apple. is what they are doing by being greener a good thing?

QUOTE=smacintush;3581063]Aaaaaand WHEN did I say that?[/QUOTE]

sorry. that is the impression i got from your posts...can you clear up your stance on being green? thank

[peeb]

Originally Posted by smacintush 

I must have missed this part…

Yes, you did. Read more closely next time.

Originally Posted by smacintush 

You haven't shown anyone anything but a desire to try to pose leading, loaded, presumptive questions.

Well, I have posed a number of straightforward questions about how you want to deal with pollution issues if you think that restricting peoples rights to pollute is 'fascism'. You have not answered in any meaningful way, which is a defeat by default.

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by peeb 

Well, I have posed a number of straightforward questions about how you want to deal with pollution issues if you think that restricting peoples rights to pollute is 'fascism'. You have not answered in any meaningful way, which is a defeat by default.

I think dealing with pollution is pretty broad, but I'll tell you this much... when any of you saps are ready to throw that non-toxic macbook air out, let me now. I'll snatch it up. Hell, if you're throwing away that toxic G5, I'll take that too.

Voila! No pollution.

[ironknee]

Originally Posted by ebuddy 

I think dealing with pollution is pretty broad, but I'll tell you this much... when any of you saps are ready to throw that non-toxic macbook air out, let me now. I'll snatch it up. Hell, if you're throwing away that toxic G5, I'll take that too.

Voila! No pollution.

seriously?

what if i throw out my mac pro g3 b/w 350 mhz?

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

Originally Posted by ironknee 

so apple should just shut down?

Of course, not. As I said, I don't have anything against corporations making consumer products, nor do I think that process is destroying the world.

AND we want new computers (people are buying them) then isn't it a good thing that apple is doing something about toxic chemicals that harm the earth?

The first part, is actually the problem: if YOU believe that too much consumption is destroying the environment, then YOU'VE got to stop consuming so much. That means, stop wanting an endless stream of shiny new consumer baubles manufactured to meet YOUR endless wants.

If all this enviro-doomsday stuff were real then the solution would have to be a two-parter. The first, would be people that believe that action is critical, actually stepping up and taking the lead in consuming less- FOR REAL, not just with gimmicks, scams, and feel good half-measures. An ACTUAL radical lifestyle change to a simpler way of life that's more enviro-friendly on every level, not just nonsense. (That's why I applaud the very, very, very, very FEW people that actually have the courage of their convictions, and walk the walk that way, not just talk the talk.)

The second part, would be manufacturing more of what's crucial and needed, and less of what's really just consumer toys (because the endless demand for them would go down), in the greenest possible way as well.

Now, make no mistake- I'm not a believer in various enviro-doomsdays, so I don't feel that there really needs to be that much less consumption. But if I were a believer, I guess I'd have to do like most who claim do, and grant myself a pass to the REAL change that should be taking place, and go right on consuming at record levels, so long as companies like Apple give me my consumer toys with a wink and nod and tell me how "green" all my needless gadgets are.