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You are here: MacNN Forums > Hardware - Troubleshooting and Discussion > iPhone, iPad & iPod > Why Safari Sucks: A Mild Rant

Why Safari Sucks: A Mild Rant
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subego
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Jun 15, 2015, 07:51 AM
 
In the older versions of iOS, Apple did something very clever. The Springboard (that's your launcher, the pages which hold all your apps) loaded up a screenshot of all its pages together.

When you swiped between one page and another, you were actually swiping a pre-rendered graphic.

The reasoning was simple. It used almost no overhead compared to the alternative, which was animating every single icon, like what happens now. The user experience was smooth. The page swipe instantly reacted to your input.

Now we have enough horses where Springboard animations can be achieved without any noticeable lag, but have an almost constant situation where a simple scrolling of the page in Safari is just too goddamn much to ask. If you're lucky, nothing happens. Usually, it will do nothing and then select the ad you tried to scroll past.

I know Apple likes to break their own interface guidelines, but when they got rid of the one which states "giving the device an input should do something", they lost sight of what made it work in the first place.
( Last edited by subego; Jun 15, 2015 at 09:04 AM. )
     
Steve Wilkinson
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Jun 19, 2015, 06:43 PM
 
Your last sentence is especially spot-on, and one of the big reasons I'm concerned about Apple (long-term) at this point. They seem to have forgotten their roots.
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aroxnicadi
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Jun 20, 2015, 09:17 AM
 
Apple lost it vision when it's visionary when Steve Job's died. Cook knows how to run a company he doesn't nor does anyone at the moment have the vision Steve did on new gadgets and software.
     
besson3c
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Jun 20, 2015, 10:13 AM
 
Originally Posted by aroxnicadi View Post
Apple lost it vision when it's visionary when Steve Job's died. Cook knows how to run a company he doesn't nor does anyone at the moment have the vision Steve did on new gadgets and software.
I can't stand it when people say this shit.

How do you any of this? Do you really think that Steve Jobs single handedly invented everything? Do you realize that he was present in the midst of failure too? I'm not talking just about failed products, but the same sort of embarrassing bugs.

Jobs was great, but this narrative that he emanated greatness and the company is only able to be great with his aura of greatness is just absurd.

The extent to which some people cling to simple narratives they want to believe are true is amazing. Sometimes things happen because they happen, there is no simple narrative to explain it all.
     
besson3c
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Jun 20, 2015, 10:19 AM
 
Besides, Safari sucked under jobs too...
     
cashxx
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Jun 20, 2015, 11:00 AM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
I can't stand it when people say this shit.

How do you any of this? Do you really think that Steve Jobs single handedly invented everything? Do you realize that he was present in the midst of failure too? I'm not talking just about failed products, but the same sort of embarrassing bugs.

Jobs was great, but this narrative that he emanated greatness and the company is only able to be great with his aura of greatness is just absurd.

The extent to which some people cling to simple narratives they want to believe are true is amazing. Sometimes things happen because they happen, there is no simple narrative to explain it all.
I agree......One thing I think what Jobs did probably best was challenged the engineers and forced them borderline to do things they didn't think could happen and as a result some things got done better at times. But Jobs didn't single handedly create everything at Apple, he maybe had some input on some things and changed some things for the better I would assume. But like you said we had these bugs here and there when Jobs was there as well!
     
cashxx
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Jun 20, 2015, 11:02 AM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
Besides, Safari sucked under jobs too...
Safari is the only browser I use and rarely if ever have any issues! It has a clean interface and all the options i want or need and easier to use and find options and settings than other other browsers. Well to me anyway!
     
besson3c
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Jun 20, 2015, 11:28 AM
 
Originally Posted by cashxx View Post
I agree......One thing I think what Jobs did probably best was challenged the engineers and forced them borderline to do things they didn't think could happen and as a result some things got done better at times. But Jobs didn't single handedly create everything at Apple, he maybe had some input on some things and changed some things for the better I would assume. But like you said we had these bugs here and there when Jobs was there as well!
Executives sculpt an environment that puts people in the best possible place for success. They do this with articulating their vision and shaping a culture, but this doesn't provide any guarantees. The workplace is only as good as its people in it.

Right now, we have no real evidence that:

1) A company with the wealth and resources of Apple is deficient in equipping itself with elite talent
2) This culture has changed from Jobs' tenure
3) Exactly what influence Jobs and Cook have had on the culture

Workplaces are complicated, especially workplaces the size of Apple's filled with the talent and intellect that Apple has. Pointing to simple narratives from an outsider's perspective as having broad meaning and adequately explaining complex matters is, quite frankly, just dumb.

I bet people inside Apple wouldn't universally agree on exactly what has changed about the workplace culture, exactly what can be attributed to Cook and Jobs, and exactly what tangible results have come about because of these changes.
     
besson3c
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Jun 20, 2015, 11:36 AM
 
Originally Posted by cashxx View Post
Safari is the only browser I use and rarely if ever have any issues! It has a clean interface and all the options i want or need and easier to use and find options and settings than other other browsers. Well to me anyway!
I don't really see the "clean interface" arguments. Most of what we do in a web browser is look at websites, not play with the interface and controls for doing so outside of tab management, and are there radical differences between how tabs work in Chrome and Safari, or most other browsers and Safari?

What, to me, is the deciding factor is not the convenience features like managing a reading list, but performance, stability, working with large numbers of open tabs, the extensions I use frequently, and the developer tools. I've been using Chrome for many years now but every once in a while give Safari a test drive. Every time I have done so, it has started off great, but once I start using it heavily I have the same sorts of issues with performance with lots of tabs open, I've had the reloading tabs issue, and I get frustrated with the developer tools/inspector.

To each their own, but at this point I doubt if I'll ever switch to Safari.
     
besson3c
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Jun 20, 2015, 12:08 PM
 
I think this says it all:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_...owsers_map.PNG

Google Chrome has been a massive success for Google. I can't find stats on web browser usage within OS X, but I would guess that Chrome does pretty well there, particularly with those that were well situated with Chrome under Windows.

I think Chrome encroaching on Safari in OS X was a bit of an embarrassment for Apple, and one that they took efforts to not repeat with iOS. It should take a lot to compete with the operating system maker's own web browser, yet Chrome has been doing pretty well on the OS X side (and not just with former Windows users).

This is my own stupid narrative, but my perceptions are that Google does really well with managing ridiculously large amounts of data (this applies to their maps too), enterprise, and performance computing. Apple's main forte is in simplifying complexity both in terms of UI/UX as well as actual execution of functionality ("it just works"). A web browser requires an interesting intersection between both. I'm not suggesting that one browser is better than the other as some sort of universal truth, I'm just saying that it is interesting that a web browser needs to be both power user and grandma friendly.
( Last edited by Thorzdad; Jun 22, 2015 at 08:11 AM. )
     
Steve Wilkinson
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Jun 20, 2015, 02:08 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
How do you any of this? Do you really think that Steve Jobs single handedly invented everything? Do you realize that he was present in the midst of failure too? I'm not talking just about failed products, but the same sort of embarrassing bugs.

Jobs was great, but this narrative that he emanated greatness and the company is only able to be great with his aura of greatness is just absurd.

The extent to which some people cling to simple narratives they want to believe are true is amazing. Sometimes things happen because they happen, there is no simple narrative to explain it all.
Yes, that is certainly an oversimplification... and Jobs wasn't some superhero or the only source of innovation at Apple. And, yes, Apple had a lot of failures and software issues under Jobs as well.

That said, I've been watching Apple closely for over 25 years now. And, I'd agree that Apple is changing, especially in the last couple of years. I don't think it's so much who is coming up with great ideas (I'm sure it wasn't all Jobs), but more Jobs ability to shut-down the bad ideas and directions. Also, Jobs had a particular focus, which I think was kind of a rudder for Apple.

What I'm seeing now, is, yes, great execution as a business. Cook is a master operations person. There is great innovation and a lot of talent there, especially in hardware. But, as the initial post and my initial response stated, a loss of their roots, especially concerning UI innovation and direction. And, while that certainly goes back into the Jobs years a bit, It has gotten really bad recently.

But, I think it goes much deeper than that for me. The word I've been using is bling. Apple now seems to care a bit too much about pop-culture, and as a result, seems to be more driven by it, then creating new things that influence culture.

And, like it or not, vision at the top does matter. Microsoft has had a lot of money and great talent too, but the continually turn out garbage. Vision and especially the ability to focus and say 'no' are crucial at the level of upper management.
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Steve Wilkinson
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Jun 20, 2015, 02:13 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
Besides, Safari sucked under jobs too...
If you read the OP's post, it wasn't so much about Safari... but about the non-responsive UI... breaking one of Apple's core UI 'rules' which helped differentiate them from the competition.

I, unfortunately, installed iOS 8 on my iPad 2. Apple was still selling similar hardware until just a few days ago. If I had been a new Apple user, buying my first device... it would be my last. THAT hasn't been typical of Apple historically. User experience used to be their primary concern. And, in over 25 years of using many Apple products, I don't ever recall a worse experience (aside from mostly acknowledged issues Apple addressed.... like GPUs in laptops, etc. which weren't universal problems).
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Jun 20, 2015, 02:19 PM
 
Apple is doomed!
     
Steve Wilkinson
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Jun 20, 2015, 02:25 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
I don't really see the "clean interface" arguments. Most of what we do in a web browser is look at websites, not play with the interface and controls for doing so outside of tab management, and are there radical differences between how tabs work in Chrome and Safari, or most other browsers and Safari?

What, to me, is the deciding factor is not the convenience features like managing a reading list, but performance, stability, working with large numbers of open tabs, the extensions I use frequently, and the developer tools. I've been using Chrome for many years now but every once in a while give Safari a test drive. Every time I have done so, it has started off great, but once I start using it heavily I have the same sorts of issues with performance with lots of tabs open, I've had the reloading tabs issue, and I get frustrated with the developer tools/inspector.

To each their own, but at this point I doubt if I'll ever switch to Safari.
I sort of agree here. It's not 'interface cleanness' as to why I mostly use Safari. (Though, for example, Firefox is absolutely ugly.) I'm also not as concerned with exact browser features, as I probably don't use most of them anyway (ex. I don't use reading mode, or reading lists... I have Pocket.). Like you said, what counts for me is how the web page renders! And THAT, is why I've mostly used Safari for my personal browsing.

Now, that can also be a problem if you're a web designer, as sites look nicer than they do for most of the world (not using Safari). Fortunately, that gap has closed, especially in the last year or so. For example, Chrome just started supporting Google Fonts like 6 months or a year ago on Windows (I know, insanely hard to believe!). The only reason, IMO, Chrome got so popular on Windows, is that the other browsers were even more horrible.

On the Mac, it's been much closer. The big current difference between Chrome and Safari, is that Chrome had Flash baked-in. That's an advantage or disadvantage, depending on your situation, but should be realized. (Ex: you can non install Flash systemwide... which is what I'd recommend... yet still use Chrome should you need to see/test some Flash. But, when using Chrome, you're going to get Flash stuff, so that might drain your battery or make your laptop run hot, etc.) I understand some of the reasons developers like Chrome or Firefox, but for average web browsing, Safari has been my favorite too.
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spidouz
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Jun 20, 2015, 02:31 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
I think this says it all:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_...owsers_map.PNG (sorry, can't display this inline)

Google Chrome has been a massive success for Google.
Except that this only a display of all computers around the world, which include at least 85% of Windows computers where people, most of the time, just hate Internet Explorer and therefor do prefer to use Google Chrome instead.

Now, show me a study of Apple devices only and things will be way different because not all Apple users do hate safari as much as windows users do hate Internet Explorer. So I'm sure on a Apple devices only study, we won't see as much Google Chrome adoption rate in comparison to Safari.
     
Steve Wilkinson
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Jun 20, 2015, 02:37 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
I think this says it all ... Google Chrome has been a massive success for Google.

This is my own stupid narrative, but my perceptions are that Google does really well with managing ridiculously large amounts of data (this applies to their maps too), enterprise, and performance computing. Apple's main forte is in simplifying complexity both in terms of UI/UX as well as actual execution of functionality ("it just works"). A web browser requires an interesting intersection between both. I'm not suggesting that one browser is better than the other as some sort of universal truth, I'm just saying that it is interesting that a web browser needs to be both power user and grandma friendly.
I'd mostly agree. But, remember that the majority still use Windows (world-wide), or at least not Apple, so they will probably pick Chrome (I would too in their shoes). Also, I'm curious how that map represents mobile... I'd expect to see some shifts in that once mobile traffic overtakes desktop. I suppose it's more a matter of only showing one 'winner' per country and only the top 3 browsers included. For example, the red in Africa is due to the prevalence of Opera on fairly 'dumb' phones. It's the only option they have. Or, I'd expect in USA and Canada, while Chrome 'wins' due to desktop use, Safari might be a close second due to mobile traffic.

But, overall, I'd agree on your perception of Apple and Google. Yes, Google is great with big-data and cloud (and Apple is kind of horrible at cloud, but improving). Whereas Google struggles to keep a usable UI on many of their products, and hopefully someday will discover a thing called customer-service.
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Steve Wilkinson
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Jun 20, 2015, 02:39 PM
 
Originally Posted by webraider View Post
Apple is doomed!
Heh... if I had a dime for every time I've heard that! (For example, I was telling people to buy Apple stock back in the 90s when everyone else was wondering who might buy them and save them.)

But, my point is more that I'm concerned about them long-term, given some of the things I've been seeing. But, even if my concerns are well-based, you have little to worry about for the next 5 years, maybe even a decade, IMO.
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Steve Wilkinson
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Jun 20, 2015, 03:14 PM
 
Originally Posted by spidouz View Post
Except that this only a display of all computers around the world, which include at least 85% of Windows computers where people, most of the time, just hate Internet Explorer and therefor do prefer to use Google Chrome instead.

Now, show me a study of Apple devices only and things will be way different because not all Apple users do hate safari as much as windows users do hate Internet Explorer. So I'm sure on a Apple devices only study, we won't see as much Google Chrome adoption rate in comparison to Safari.
If you look around enough, you can find breakdowns of traffic by browser or OS, etc. What that image isn't really showing, is that mobile is on the rise (not majority though, so not shown on that image), and that within mobile traffic, Safari ranks pretty well.

The other problem (in perception), is that because of the 'marketshare' baloney out there in mobile, many assume that Android traffic would be higher than it is. For whatever reason (I have my own theories), only a very small percentage of Android devices are actually in-use surfing the web. So, in reality, it's more like a 90/10% spit (in Apple's favor) to a 50/50% split between iOS and Android in actual use (depending on the type of website).

If the trend continues, mobile will one-day surpass 'desktop' in web-traffic, and when that happens, Chrome might not as easily automatically be #1. It's still going to be a lot though, as it is pretty popular, even among Apple users. Also, Opera is built on Chrome (and superior IMO), so if the tracking doesn't differentiate, I think Opera might be counted as Chrome.
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subego  (op)
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Jun 20, 2015, 05:01 PM
 
To be clear, Safari's "interface" problem isn't a poorly designed interface.

Safari's interface problem is it's so poorly optimized a perfectly acceptable interface doesn't function properly. A brand new iPhone simply doesn't have the horses to run it.

It's not like Steve's genius was micromanaging code, his "genius" was making you feel like shit if your ****ing web browser crippled top-of-the-line hardware.

Aaaaand... maybe you should feel like shit for that.
     
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Jun 20, 2015, 05:37 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
To be clear, Safari's "interface" problem isn't a poorly designed interface.

Safari's interface problem is it's so poorly optimized a perfectly acceptable interface doesn't function properly. A brand new iPhone simply doesn't have the horses to run it.

It's not like Steve's genius was micromanaging code, his "genius" was making you feel like shit if your ****ing web browser crippled top-of-the-line hardware.

Aaaaand... maybe you should feel like shit for that.
Exactly! And, it isn't that I don't think Tim or other Apple management couldn't yell at the coders just as well as Steve when they are that messed up. I just don't think that's as much their focus (again, we'll see how they do with iOS 9).

One dept seems focused on making it look 'cool' with flat design. Another is implementing the latest flash-wizzy effects. The new feature list is the priority. Others are making various apps. None of them seem to be talking to each other anymore. QC seems to have lapsed. Meanwhile, Tim and company are focused on hiring fashion experts and keeping up with the Kardashians.

Now, maybe if you're transitioning from a computer company specializing in supporting creative types... to a consumer electronics company, you need to pay more attention to pop culture, etc. But as profitable as that has been for them (at least short-term), consumer electronics companies are a dime-a-dozen. And most of their products are junk.

Initially, the iPhone was a trojan horse to bring people into the Apple eco-system. If the eco-system dies, it will all be for naught.
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subego  (op)
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Jun 20, 2015, 05:59 PM
 
These dots basically connect themselves.

Action: put a supply chain guy in charge
Result: half-baked products release on time

Hmm...
     
besson3c
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Jun 20, 2015, 07:49 PM
 
Originally Posted by Steve Wilkinson View Post
Yes, that is certainly an oversimplification... and Jobs wasn't some superhero or the only source of innovation at Apple. And, yes, Apple had a lot of failures and software issues under Jobs as well.

That said, I've been watching Apple closely for over 25 years now. And, I'd agree that Apple is changing, especially in the last couple of years. I don't think it's so much who is coming up with great ideas (I'm sure it wasn't all Jobs), but more Jobs ability to shut-down the bad ideas and directions. Also, Jobs had a particular focus, which I think was kind of a rudder for Apple.

What I'm seeing now, is, yes, great execution as a business. Cook is a master operations person. There is great innovation and a lot of talent there, especially in hardware. But, as the initial post and my initial response stated, a loss of their roots, especially concerning UI innovation and direction. And, while that certainly goes back into the Jobs years a bit, It has gotten really bad recently.

But, I think it goes much deeper than that for me. The word I've been using is bling. Apple now seems to care a bit too much about pop-culture, and as a result, seems to be more driven by it, then creating new things that influence culture.

And, like it or not, vision at the top does matter. Microsoft has had a lot of money and great talent too, but the continually turn out garbage. Vision and especially the ability to focus and say 'no' are crucial at the level of upper management.

I think what you are observing is not necessarily losing track of their roots in some sort of intellectual way, but them dealing with various challenges of becoming a larger company.

The reason why there has been an explosion of tech startups in jobs in our economy is because it is possible for startups to be effectively disruptive of established companies and products. What they use to their advantage is their agility, their ability to pivot quickly and adapt. If you aren't familiar with agile development, sprints, scrums, kanban, etc. basically these are methods of product development that strive to retain/maximize that edge of a hungry, feisty startup that can develop rapidly and meet aggressive deadlines. There has been a tremendous amount of study into these different approaches.

It is possible to have that edge in a large company and develop rapidly, but it seems to become harder, and as some products become bigger and more complex, it is definitely similarly difficult for a startup to keep a handle on things without a lot of funding and resources. For example, OS X or Microsoft Office as they stand today are fairly slow moving because they are already mature, but even if some sort of radical change was necessary, there are simply too many customers and stuff to have to support. Microsoft is a great example of a slow moving company that has been having a hard time keeping up with the world, so it seems.

To me Apple is becoming slower moving. This was virtually inevitable for a company that has gotten this size to not be challenged this way. They aren't that feisty underdog company any longer, and this is why I roll my eyes at the Apple fanboys that defend Apple no matter what, it's as if their emotional attachment is still locked into the way Apple was 10+ years ago.

You cannot pin this on an executive though. If Steve Jobs were still alive today, Apple would be similarly challenged. Apple has grown to be bigger than what any one executive can micromanage.
     
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Jun 20, 2015, 08:00 PM
 
Originally Posted by Steve Wilkinson View Post
Now, that can also be a problem if you're a web designer, as sites look nicer than they do for most of the world (not using Safari). Fortunately, that gap has closed, especially in the last year or so. For example, Chrome just started supporting Google Fonts like 6 months or a year ago on Windows (I know, insanely hard to believe!). The only reason, IMO, Chrome got so popular on Windows, is that the other browsers were even more horrible.
I'm not sure what you are referring to here. Embeddable fonts have been supported for many years now by all browsers. How that font renders (anti-aliasing) is managed by the operating system. Are you suggesting that type somehow looks better in Safari than it does in Chrome for OS X?

On the Mac, it's been much closer. The big current difference between Chrome and Safari, is that Chrome had Flash baked-in. That's an advantage or disadvantage, depending on your situation, but should be realized. (Ex: you can non install Flash systemwide... which is what I'd recommend... yet still use Chrome should you need to see/test some Flash. But, when using Chrome, you're going to get Flash stuff, so that might drain your battery or make your laptop run hot, etc.) I understand some of the reasons developers like Chrome or Firefox, but for average web browsing, Safari has been my favorite too.
There are many more differences between Chrome and Safari, some of which have been discussed here: tabs and process threading (i.e. performance with large numbers of tabs), developer tools, Javascript engine, extension availability, developmental model in how they choose to incorporate the latest Webkit upstream code, and various features.
     
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Jun 20, 2015, 08:01 PM
 
Originally Posted by spidouz View Post
Except that this only a display of all computers around the world, which include at least 85% of Windows computers where people, most of the time, just hate Internet Explorer and therefor do prefer to use Google Chrome instead.

Now, show me a study of Apple devices only and things will be way different because not all Apple users do hate safari as much as windows users do hate Internet Explorer. So I'm sure on a Apple devices only study, we won't see as much Google Chrome adoption rate in comparison to Safari.
I acknowledged this.
     
besson3c
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Jun 20, 2015, 08:04 PM
 
Originally Posted by Steve Wilkinson View Post
I'd mostly agree. But, remember that the majority still use Windows (world-wide), or at least not Apple, so they will probably pick Chrome (I would too in their shoes). Also, I'm curious how that map represents mobile... I'd expect to see some shifts in that once mobile traffic overtakes desktop. I suppose it's more a matter of only showing one 'winner' per country and only the top 3 browsers included. For example, the red in Africa is due to the prevalence of Opera on fairly 'dumb' phones. It's the only option they have. Or, I'd expect in USA and Canada, while Chrome 'wins' due to desktop use, Safari might be a close second due to mobile traffic.

But, overall, I'd agree on your perception of Apple and Google. Yes, Google is great with big-data and cloud (and Apple is kind of horrible at cloud, but improving). Whereas Google struggles to keep a usable UI on many of their products, and hopefully someday will discover a thing called customer-service.

I think mobile vs desktop is apples vs. oranges because of the popularity of Windows, but also because Apple is far more controlling of iOS than they are OS X. Google hasn't been given the same opportunity to compete directly with Safari on iOS as they have in OS X.

Google also faces privacy challenges that Apple seems far better at dealing with.
     
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Jun 20, 2015, 08:05 PM
 
Originally Posted by Steve Wilkinson View Post
If you look around enough, you can find breakdowns of traffic by browser or OS, etc. What that image isn't really showing, is that mobile is on the rise (not majority though, so not shown on that image), and that within mobile traffic, Safari ranks pretty well.

The other problem (in perception), is that because of the 'marketshare' baloney out there in mobile, many assume that Android traffic would be higher than it is. For whatever reason (I have my own theories), only a very small percentage of Android devices are actually in-use surfing the web. So, in reality, it's more like a 90/10% spit (in Apple's favor) to a 50/50% split between iOS and Android in actual use (depending on the type of website).

If the trend continues, mobile will one-day surpass 'desktop' in web-traffic, and when that happens, Chrome might not as easily automatically be #1. It's still going to be a lot though, as it is pretty popular, even among Apple users. Also, Opera is built on Chrome (and superior IMO), so if the tracking doesn't differentiate, I think Opera might be counted as Chrome.

Opera is built on Webkit, not Chrome.

Sorry to be picky and know-it-all-y here, but if we are going to take a deep dive into this data perhaps we should get these details right.
     
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Jun 20, 2015, 08:07 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
To be clear, Safari's "interface" problem isn't a poorly designed interface.

Safari's interface problem is it's so poorly optimized a perfectly acceptable interface doesn't function properly. A brand new iPhone simply doesn't have the horses to run it.

It's not like Steve's genius was micromanaging code, his "genius" was making you feel like plant if your ****ing web browser crippled top-of-the-line hardware.

Aaaaand... maybe you should feel like plant for that.


Disagree.

Apple's QA is a reflection of their company size and challenges with moving quickly while growing in size far more than an executive making a team feel bad.
     
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Jun 21, 2015, 01:11 AM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
I think what you are observing is not necessarily losing track of their roots in some sort of intellectual way, but them dealing with various challenges of becoming a larger company
It's probably both.

I realize the complexities you're talking about. I've been a member of a small firm, as well as working as a sr. member of a Fortune 100 IS/IT team. I'm now a small startup. I listen to a dozen or so entrepreneurial podcasts, so I'm familiar with what you're talking about.

But, what the OP was talking about I've seen as well. If that's a matter of growth, then it indicates that sr. management isn't able to communicate their vision and foundational aspects of Apple to the employees. That's not a good thing. It shouldn't be hard for anyone at Apple to have used iOS 8 before release and either cancel the launch or get proper recourse in place to fix it before launch. It's not like the problems aren't obvious... and if user experience is your top goal, you'd have never have let that one go public.

The closest thing I can recall under Jobs might have been Apple's original attempts at the cloud. And, as I understand, that whole division got a major chewing out by Jobs... he was furious.

Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
To me Apple is becoming slower moving. This was virtually inevitable for a company that has gotten this size to not be challenged this way. They aren't that feisty underdog company any longer, and this is why I roll my eyes at the Apple fanboys that defend Apple no matter what, it's as if their emotional attachment is still locked into the way Apple was 10+ years ago.
They haven't been a feisty underdog company for a lot longer than that. I roll my eyes too, when people forget Apple was a big, successful company prior to the iPhone. The kind of stuff you're talking about would have been a problem even before Jobs came back.

Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
You cannot pin this on an executive though. If Steve Jobs were still alive today, Apple would be similarly challenged. Apple has grown to be bigger than what any one executive can micromanage.
Yes and no. The buck stops with Cook, so when he realized iOS 8 was such a mess, he shouldn't have shipped it. And, Cook should be the one setting overall priorities (like adhering to Apple's core values). Since he seems capable of doing that in other regards, it makes me question whether he has some of those priorities in mind anymore... hence our concern.

But, you're right that the problem we're talking about is much bigger than one executive. And that is maybe even more troubling. If Apple has collectively forgotten that user experience is priority one, then it's just going to be a long, painful ride to irrelevancy.
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Jun 21, 2015, 01:42 AM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
I'm not sure what you are referring to here. Embeddable fonts have been supported for many years now by all browsers. How that font renders (anti-aliasing) is managed by the operating system. Are you suggesting that type somehow looks better in Safari than it does in Chrome for OS X?
On Windows, proper rendering of web fonts (including Google's own Web fonts) was added in Chrome 37, back last July. I had to do testing for a client and figure that problem out some months before that. I could hardly believe Windows users were actually using it, as horrible as many sites looked (ex: even popular sites like CNN often rendered fonts with quite blocky edges and layout issues in Chrome. (I know, because I sent screen-shots from my Windows test box to the client to prove it wasn't just their own site. And, with some font choices, things were barely readable!)

But, prior to that... and even today, Safari does a nice job of rendering a web page, not just the fonts. Like I said, the gap has closed a lot in the last year or so.
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Jun 21, 2015, 01:50 AM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
Opera is built on Webkit, not Chrome.
I was just going by something I heard... but it seems we're both right in a way...

"On 28 May 2013, a beta release of Opera 15 was made available, the first version based on the Chromium project."

But,

Blink, the layout engine, is a Google fork of WebKit. So, I guess they are all based off WebKit ultimately.
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Jun 21, 2015, 01:53 AM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
Disagree.

Apple's QA is a reflection of their company size and challenges with moving quickly while growing in size far more than an executive making a team feel bad.
Then maybe they need to slow down. They were a pretty darn big company under Jobs too, and didn't seem to have issues like this.
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besson3c
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Jun 21, 2015, 03:20 AM
 
Originally Posted by Steve Wilkinson View Post
Yes and no. The buck stops with Cook, so when he realized iOS 8 was such a mess, he shouldn't have shipped it. And, Cook should be the one setting overall priorities (like adhering to Apple's core values). Since he seems capable of doing that in other regards, it makes me question whether he has some of those priorities in mind anymore... hence our concern.

But, you're right that the problem we're talking about is much bigger than one executive. And that is maybe even more troubling. If Apple has collectively forgotten that user experience is priority one, then it's just going to be a long, painful ride to irrelevancy.
You have mentioned iOS 8 as a frequent example. I personally don't have a problem, but I also use an iPhone 6. The question of supporting older hardware well is an interesting question that I think is unique to where we are now with mobile technology in general. In other words, I'm not sure this is an issue specific to Apple and their decision making.
     
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Jun 21, 2015, 03:22 AM
 
Originally Posted by Steve Wilkinson View Post
On Windows, proper rendering of web fonts (including Google's own Web fonts) was added in Chrome 37, back last July. I had to do testing for a client and figure that problem out some months before that. I could hardly believe Windows users were actually using it, as horrible as many sites looked (ex: even popular sites like CNN often rendered fonts with quite blocky edges and layout issues in Chrome. (I know, because I sent screen-shots from my Windows test box to the client to prove it wasn't just their own site. And, with some font choices, things were barely readable!)

But, prior to that... and even today, Safari does a nice job of rendering a web page, not just the fonts. Like I said, the gap has closed a lot in the last year or so.


I'm not challenging you at all because I know next to nothing about Windows, but was this a browser issue or an operating system issue, or both? Is it possible that Microsoft didn't provide a way for applications to properly anti-alias fonts?
     
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Jun 21, 2015, 03:26 AM
 
Originally Posted by Steve Wilkinson View Post
Then maybe they need to slow down. They were a pretty darn big company under Jobs too, and didn't seem to have issues like this.
Unfortunately I don't think they can't be small any longer without restricting who can buy their products somehow.

Under Jobs the company was transitioning from a smaller company to a massive one. I'm not saying my argument is bulletproof, it probably isn't, but it just seems far more plausible that something along the lines of what I'm describing is a more logical culprit than a single executive. This is maybe kind of like saying that the problems with US Congress lie with the Speaker of the House?
     
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Jun 21, 2015, 11:59 AM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
Disagree.

Apple's QA is a reflection of their company size and challenges with moving quickly while growing in size far more than an executive making a team feel bad.
If I were Steve, and you came to me with this excuse, I'd soooo make you regret thinking it would fly.

"Did you forget you work for Apple you mother****er? We can always get you a job sucking cock in Mountain View if you're not up to the challenge."
     
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Jun 21, 2015, 12:37 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
If I were Steve, and you came to me with this excuse, I'd soooo make you regret thinking it would fly.

"Did you forget you work for Apple you mother****er? We can always get you a job sucking cock in Mountain View if you're not up to the challenge."

Do you think those tactics have positive outcomes? Workers upping their game out of fear?
     
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Jun 21, 2015, 12:48 PM
 
Under most circumstances, no.

It's not my style anyway, so even if it worked, I wouldn't do it (though I admit, it was fun to channel Steve for a second).

With Steve, it worked. You know the iPod in the fishtank story, right?
     
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Jun 21, 2015, 01:00 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Under most circumstances, no.

It's not my style anyway, so even if it worked, I wouldn't do it (though I admit, it was fun to channel Steve for a second).

With Steve, it worked. You know the iPod in the fishtank story, right?

No, but those may have also been the days of Apple not being in the best position to bring in the best possible executive teams (who would be the people to blame for deficiencies). Perhaps they worked with what they had at the time? Just a stupid wild ass theory here...
     
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Jun 21, 2015, 01:52 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
You have mentioned iOS 8 as a frequent example. I personally don't have a problem, but I also use an iPhone 6. The question of supporting older hardware well is an interesting question that I think is unique to where we are now with mobile technology in general. In other words, I'm not sure this is an issue specific to Apple and their decision making.
Well, yes there is the issue of 'older' hardware, and iOS 8 behaves pretty poorly on it. When I upgraded my iPad 2, it completely changed the user experience. I hardly used my iPad for months. Since the last couple sub-version updates, it is at least usable again, though very far from an experience I'd expect from Apple.

But, up until a couple days ago, they were still selling the iPad mini (essentially the same hardware as the iPad 2) as a new device. So, we're not just talking old... we're talking even the lower end of their product range. I can't ever recall another situation like that in the history of Apple. That users should have a good experience with any shipping product, let alone reasonably old supported products, was always priority #1 for Apple. And, it's not like Cook should have been unaware of this... if no-one at Apple tested it on all shipping products, at least, the whole bunch of them should be fired!

It goes further than that though. Apple has been getting pretty sloppy in UI design overall in recent years. It's like they've tossed out the UI guidelines they have followed since their early days. That would be akin to McDonald's losing food-quality consistency between locations, or deciding not to have a cleaning policy anymore, etc. This UI and user-experience stuff is at the core of who Apple is.

If you're right that they are losing these things due to growth challenges... then it's still a #1 problem to be addressed.
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Jun 21, 2015, 01:58 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
I'm not challenging you at all because I know next to nothing about Windows, but was this a browser issue or an operating system issue, or both? Is it possible that Microsoft didn't provide a way for applications to properly anti-alias fonts?
I'd have to do more research too to tell you. I know it involved a switch in which OS API they used to handle fonts, but I'm not sure on the details. I know other browsers did a better font rendering job earlier, so I'm not sure if something core in Windows changed earlier, and Chrome was just late to the game.

But, as a person who cares about how stuff looks... having to use Windows for any amount of time always makes me cringe.
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Jun 21, 2015, 02:06 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
Unfortunately I don't think they can't be small any longer without restricting who can buy their products somehow.

Under Jobs the company was transitioning from a smaller company to a massive one. I'm not saying my argument is bulletproof, it probably isn't, but it just seems far more plausible that something along the lines of what I'm describing is a more logical culprit than a single executive. This is maybe kind of like saying that the problems with US Congress lie with the Speaker of the House?
It would be interesting to look at the actual number of employees and such, but I don't think they went from smaller company to massive. They went from a huge company to one of the bigger ones in the world. My point is that I think they were well beyond the kinds of growing pains you're talking about under Jobs too.

I agree that it's a bigger problem than just Jobs or Cook now. But, I have to wonder if vision or leadership erosion might be a good part of the issue. Remember, Jobs was quite sick for a while and has been gone for several years now. So, we're talking about nearly a half-decade for such erosion to occur.

Note, that I'm completely against the idea of those who've been waiting for a magic 'next big thing' and think the lack of such a thing is because Jobs is gone. I don't expect that, and that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about a slow cultural shift under new leadership, of which maybe we're seeing some of the first indications. We won't know for sure, for years... but I'm starting to get a bit worried, to be honest. If it's just growing pains, then we'll see this stuff get fixed over the next few years.
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Jun 21, 2015, 02:09 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
Do you think those tactics have positive outcomes? Workers upping their game out of fear?
Actually, from what I've heard and read, that's a misunderstanding of immature Jobs vs mature Jobs too. So, while I'd bet Jobs was an intimidating figure to screw-up under, I don't think he'd operate like that in recent Apple history.
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Jun 21, 2015, 02:23 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
No, but those may have also been the days of Apple not being in the best position to bring in the best possible executive teams (who would be the people to blame for deficiencies). Perhaps they worked with what they had at the time? Just a stupid wild ass theory here...
Oooh... you're in for a treat! Pull up a chair.


The iPod dev team are showing Steve the latest design of the first gen iPod.

Steve says "it's too big, we can't release this."

An engineer nervously replies "we couldn't make it any smaller."

Steve gets up, iPod in hand, walks over to the fishtank in his office, and drops the iPod in.

The entire dev team watches in horror as their one copy of this thing sinks to the bottom of the tank. After a moment, a little column of bubbles starts to leak out the top corner.

Steve says "there's air in there... get rid of it."



So, yeah, it isn't just making you feel like shit, it's its own unique thing for which making people feel like shit is a major component. To the point where it becomes shorthand for it.
     
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Jun 21, 2015, 03:30 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Oooh... you're in for a treat! Pull up a chair.
Heh, yea... we need to be careful not to minimize Jobs' impact either!

I guess a bit of history is in order here too, as maybe some of the contributors to the conversation might not have been around Apple for as long.

First, way back when Apple was actually a startup, it was under Jobs' leadership. He had some really visionary people working for him, as I'd guess Apple still does. So, it's not so much that Jobs came up with all the ideas, or invented the technologies, etc. but I think he VERY MUCH set the direction. And, as you indicated, his role in the 'no' was probably the biggest strength of the company. Any good entrepreneur will tell you that a key ability is to know what to say 'no' to, much more than what to say 'yes' to.

It's also important to recognize that Apple, as a company, has probably changed the world more than any other I can think of in modern history. Consider a few things Apple invented, popularized, or made much more workable... personal computing, GUI, mouse, laser printers, fonts, local networking, PDAs, laptops, digital cameras, CD-ROM, video on computers, WiFI, Bluetooth, on-line music purchase, USB, getting rid of floppy (which propelled other storage tech), iPod, smart-phone, tablet, etc. And, just think of all the sub-impacts, computers for the average household, or the world of publishing and graphic design, to name just a couple.

The whole 'Think Different' thing was much more than a marketing slogan! And, that played out after Jobs was ousted from the company as it became a big company (and he was deemed not CEO material... which maybe he fully wasn't). But, under the leadership of all the other 'industry expert' CEOs, with the possible exception of Sculley (was he just riding Steve's tech success and a good marketer? Or, was he somewhat responsible for the their success? arguable), Apple floundered. Apple's 'dark years,' one could easily argue, where due to the lack of leadership and vision of these people. In other words, Apple started doing what the rest of the world and industry thought they should be doing, rather than 'thinking differently.'

When Jobs returned, he turned a lot of the company upside-down. He made the hard decisions, cut product lines, stopped the licensing of the OS, etc. It's kind of hard to argue that Jobs wasn't largely responsible for these transitions. No, he didn't do the work, but he provided the necessary vision and leadership to enable it to take place in a large organization.

Before his death, he said this stuff had become ingrained in Apple.. in their DNA. To some extent, that's probably true. But, I also don't think it would be *that* hard to lose it under the wrong leadership. It won't be instant, but it can certainly happen. Is the leadership team at Apple on the same page as Jobs was, and able to direct and portray that to the talented people actually creating the stuff? That's what I'm beginning to question.
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Jun 21, 2015, 04:02 PM
 
Don't you guys ever pause to consider how much of this is truth and how much is actual fact?

These kind of stories sound like musician biographies, which are often spun by the biographer to create a narrative. Did the story of the iPod and fish tank come from a reputable source, or could it be urban legend?
     
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Jun 21, 2015, 05:14 PM
 
Steve, when it comes to retail, "new device" usually means "never unboxed," whether or not the device is 2 generations behind. That doesn't mean it's "right" to present something that won't work well with the current OS as "new," but we're not talking about Apple's engineers calling the original iPad Mini a "new" device. What we're seeing is a disconnect between marketing and design/manufacture. If a salesman and a lawyer are talking, how much of either one's talk do you believe? Be careful here, and don't sign anything!!!

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Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
Jobs was great, but this narrative that he emanated greatness and the company is only able to be great with his aura of greatness is just absurd.
"Aura of greatness" = Reality Distortion Field
     
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Jun 22, 2015, 01:13 AM
 
Originally Posted by ghporter View Post
Steve, when it comes to retail, "new device" usually means "never unboxed," whether or not the device is 2 generations behind. That doesn't mean it's "right" to present something that won't work well with the current OS as "new," but we're not talking about Apple's engineers calling the original iPad Mini a "new" device. What we're seeing is a disconnect between marketing and design/manufacture. If a salesman and a lawyer are talking, how much of either one's talk do you believe? Be careful here, and don't sign anything!!!
I get what you're saying, but I'm not talking about old tech that some store is trying to sell out at rock-bottom prices. That may fool some, but most people understand that such stuff might not run the latest and greatest. The iPad mini was being sold directly by Apple as more more entry-level kind of model. Now, we tech-geeks might go, yea... it is limited in RAM and has an older CPU/GPU, etc. But, an average person walks into an Apple store (or other retailer) and sees a bunch of devices ranging from $X to $Y in price. They make the assumption (and rightly so), that a 'new' device within the current product-line shouldn't be obsolete at the time of purchase.

And, argue the details all you like.... in the end, it's bad business for Apple. If the current folks in charge can't see that, then we've got problems, Houston.
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Jun 22, 2015, 12:29 PM
 
I use Safari everyday just fine thank you. Nothing sucks about Safari. Safari quits when I ask it to quit. Google Chrome and Firefox always need to be force quit. Google Chrome will eat your battery life twice as much as Safari to me that really sucks. I'm on Safari right now and it seems to work for me everyday thank you. Steve Jobs was an amazing business person and could see future products but he didn't make everything perfect so stop arguing with the Steve excuse when something doesn't work the way you like it too. He was a great leader but there are many people involved in making up any product that you use and they all try and do a great job to make it as good as it can be. But technology isn't always as easy to get it right and perfect right out of the box. Lots of variables involved in software and hardware. And if you are running any Beta product don't complain about it, send in feedback because that's what you are running the Beta for so Apple can fix things before an actual release. Read the agreement that states DON'T USE ON YOUR EVERYDAY WORK MACHINE. Because bugs and crashes will happen and if you can't live with that you should not run any Beta's.
     
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Jun 22, 2015, 12:36 PM
 
Originally Posted by b9bot View Post
And if you are running any Beta product don't complain about it...
iOS 8 has been out of beta for over 9 months now.

But, the point of the original post wasn't even so much about Safari, as it was about Apple breaking core, fundamental user-experience principals they've closely followed since the early days of the company.
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