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Deus Ex: Human Revolution for Mac is here
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lpkmckenna
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Apr 26, 2012, 11:06 PM
 
Mac App Store - Deus Ex: Human Revolution - Ultimate Edition

Deus Ex: Human Revolution for Mac is here. $50 might be kinda steep for some people, but it includes all the DLC.
     
P
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Apr 27, 2012, 04:42 AM
 
And no Steam version. I get that the porting houses want to get paid, but noone who bought the Windows version will pay $50 to get it again, so what do they really lose by not selling it there?
The new Mac Pro has up to 30 MB of cache inside the processor itself. That's more than the HD in my first Mac. Somehow I'm still running out of space.
     
exca1ibur
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Apr 27, 2012, 02:44 PM
 
Thats why I gave up on Mac gaming a LONG time ago. Games come out 1-2 years late, Windows version is now like $30, and they want full price for it. Don't think so.
     
lpkmckenna  (op)
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Apr 27, 2012, 05:55 PM
 
Originally Posted by P View Post
And no Steam version. I get that the porting houses want to get paid, but noone who bought the Windows version will pay $50 to get it again, so what do they really lose by not selling it there?
The problem is Steam only recognizes one publisher per game. There is no Mac version or PC version, there is just one version. Until Valve changes this, there's no way for third-party publishers to sell there, except to hand back publishing control to the original developer; Aspyr appears to have done this with their 2K ports Civ 4&5, and Duke Nukem Forever. I can't imagine Mac publishers are interested in doing things this way and would prefer to have their own Mac versions of games without the Steamplay requirement.

Let's imagine it the other way: Valve suddenly lets users import Mac App Store games into Steam, giving them free access to the PC versions of the games. How do you think PC publishers would feel about this?

Myself, it means nothing to me if Feral or Aspyr don't sell their games at Steam, because I will always buy the games at the Mac App Store given the choice. Steam is just too much of a resource hog. I don't even like to browse the Steam store thru the app but rather use a browser, because the performance is so crap, and the scrolling action is painful.

Originally Posted by exca1ibur View Post
Thats why I gave up on Mac gaming a LONG time ago. Games come out 1-2 years late, Windows version is now like $30, and they want full price for it. Don't think so.
At Steam, the basic game is $30, with DLC is $40. I don't think an extra $10 for a brand-new port is outrageous.

The lag doesn't bug me because I can't catch up anyways. I still have L4D 1&2 sitting on my drive unplayed, along with a bunch of indie games.
     
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May 1, 2012, 03:26 PM
 
I am aware of the fact that Valve only recognizes one SKU, but I believe that this has been made into too big of a problem by the porting houses. Sales of new games could easily be handled - just check which version the user downloads after purchasing, or check which version he plays or most or whatever. They have to have a deal with the publisher anyway - just handle this sort of thing in the contract. Not too difficult.

What I think the porting houses are worried about is people getting a Mac version for free if they bought it for the PC at launch. This is the part where I think they're being silly. If I bought it for Windows, I'm not going to pay full price again to play it on the Mac, so they don't get any money from me in any case. If they had sold a version of the Mac game that required a PC CD key for $2 or whatever, they'd at least get that money from me (if it were a good game that I might want to revisit). I'm sure they'd prefer to have two completely different SKUs on Steam, but that isn't going to happen. I think that Valve might be willing to make a deal, but I seriously doubt that they'll renege on the single SKU thing now and risk pissing off the big publishers.

The way the porting works is different for different games. This was in all likelihood a case where the porter contacted the publisher, bought the license to make a Mac version and is then hoping to make their money back. Civ IV and V may not be the same situation - back in the olden days, it was more common for the publisher to solicit someone to do their porting for them, and then sell the game. I know that back in the Civ III days, the license that MacSoft had for Civ III lapsed and it was resold to Aspyr (so they could make the final expansion, Civ III: Conquests, which MacSoft passed on for whatever reason). Anyway, Civ V is a Steam exclusive in the sense that Steam must be installed to run it, and the Mac port was early enough that there were no sales on the PC version that early. Civ IV has been pushed widely - I have three licenses for it by now.
The new Mac Pro has up to 30 MB of cache inside the processor itself. That's more than the HD in my first Mac. Somehow I'm still running out of space.
     
edddeduck
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May 28, 2012, 06:30 AM
 
Originally Posted by P View Post
What I think the porting houses are worried about is people getting a Mac version for free if they bought it for the PC at launch. This is the part where I think they're being silly. If I bought it for Windows, I'm not going to pay full price again to play it on the Mac, so they don't get any money from me in any case. If they had sold a version of the Mac game that required a PC CD key for $2 or whatever, they'd at least get that money from me (if it were a good game that I might want to revisit).
To follow on from your example what happens if people get the Mac version using a boxed DVD $2 Key, that money as it was an offline sale the revenue cannot be passed on via Steam so that means no revenue for the Mac company.

Also if you can get the Mac version for only $2 (using a PC Steam purchase) it means the Mac revenue from other locations will dry up and the game although potentially popular will make little or no revenue, if you make no revenue, you cannot cover your costs, if you cannot cover your costs... Well I think you get the idea.

If you take the Mac price and total up the cost of the PC version on Steam then the Mac version it is very close in price. I can't get into specifics but I wanted to post and say it's not a simple as it looks from the outside and expand on one example for you to show the side effects when you start to look into the pros and cons. We always want to have the best and widest choice for our customers but we also want to be successful enough to keep making games for a long time.

Edwin
     
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May 28, 2012, 08:18 AM
 
I get what you're trying to say, but you're contradicting yourself.

First this, where you're worried about the total revenue drying up because people would buy a cheaper PC version + a Mac license...

Originally Posted by edddeduck View Post
Also if you can get the Mac version for only $2 (using a PC Steam purchase) it means the Mac revenue from other locations will dry up and the game although potentially popular will make little or no revenue, if you make no revenue, you cannot cover your costs, if you cannot cover your costs... Well I think you get the idea.
And then here were you say that there is no price difference between the Mac version and the PC version...

Originally Posted by edddeduck View Post
If you take the Mac price and total up the cost of the PC version on Steam then the Mac version it is very close in price.
So with this setup, it would be more expensive to buy a PC version + Mac a license than to buy the Mac version directly.

Originally Posted by edddeduck View Post
I can't get into specifics but I wanted to post and say it's not a simple as it looks from the outside and expand on one example for you to show the side effects when you start to look into the pros and cons. We always want to have the best and widest choice for our customers but we also want to be successful enough to keep making games for a long time.
I get that you have a business model and that you'd like to keep using it, but the situation is that with Boot Camp, the number of PC games sold to Mac users has gone up. I usually don't mind waiting a while if I know that there is a Mac version coming, but in cases like this one, where there is no indication in advance that a Mac version is in the works, I might as well be waiting forever. If it's a game I want badly enough, I'll buy it and play it in Boot Camp.

Now, say that there is a Mac version released. Do you expect me to buy the game a second time at full price? I don't think very many will do that, so that market is gone. What I'm getting at is that you might get some additional revenue by selling a low-priced version to those gamers. It shouldn't be cheaper than a new Mac version - in fact, it can be slightly more expensive. Steam is incidental to this discussion - you can sell it any way you like, but I doubt that Apple will be interested in selling two versions, and Steam IS convenient.
The new Mac Pro has up to 30 MB of cache inside the processor itself. That's more than the HD in my first Mac. Somehow I'm still running out of space.
     
edddeduck
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May 28, 2012, 11:55 AM
 
Originally Posted by P View Post
I get what you're trying to say, but you're contradicting yourself.

First this, where you're worried about the total revenue drying up because people would buy a cheaper PC version + a Mac license...

And then here were you say that there is no price difference between the Mac version and the PC version...
I can see how you might want to think that, but that not at all what I mean, I was showing that either price argument is flawed.

If the development costs are all paid for by one company, that same company developed both games and the game is ONLY sold Mac/PC combined SKU in all stores worldwide then your logic would work. However if you have two SKU's (Mac and PC) with two different companies, two different budgets, two different orders of scale (Mac and PC sales figures are vastly different) then it hard to have the maths all work out and get all the companies to agree to what is fair terms.

The game is usually discounted once it has covered costs, however with less users the Mac takes longer to cover it's costs so you are at an impasse. With a dual SKU you either keep the PC price higher or make the Mac port loss making (or cover the loss under marketing budget or something). I was showing no matter how you slice it both methods will not work. My aim is not to argue every little point with you but to show that this is not a simple cut and dry argument there are many potential issues that are not first apparent. Some mentioned here some not.

Originally Posted by P View Post
So with this setup, it would be more expensive to buy a PC version + Mac a license than to buy the Mac version directly.
The PC version on steam (with all DLC) costs £32.17 to purchase.
The Mac release on the AppStore with the same content costs £34.99.
That is a price difference of under £3.

Now if you are comparing buying the PC version (and getting the Mac version for free) compared to buying them separately then yes you are correct. Buying two games costs more than buying one. When I bought a copy of F1 2011 for my XBox 360 I did not get a free copy for my PS3 so I could play against my PS3 friends, I would have to buy it again. Do Codemasters expect me to buy it again? No they don't, they expect me to choose. As a Mac publisher we would love to have Mac owners buy our copy but if they buy the PC version then that's their choice and it's a sale we have likely lost.

Sure having free copies for PC owners would be great but it comes at a cost.

Originally Posted by P View Post
I get that you have a business model and that you'd like to keep using it, but the situation is that with Boot Camp, the number of PC games sold to Mac users has gone up. I usually don't mind waiting a while if I know that there is a Mac version coming, but in cases like this one, where there is no indication in advance that a Mac version is in the works, I might as well be waiting forever. If it's a game I want badly enough, I'll buy it and play it in Boot Camp.

Now, say that there is a Mac version released. Do you expect me to buy the game a second time at full price?
No, we don't expect a sale as you already own the game, then again if you have completed the game in Bootcamp we would not expect a Mac sale. We would expect a few sales from PC players if we have a flash sale but for the initial launch, no we would not expect them to pay again.

The lack of information about the Mac version as it is late compared to the PC is a fair point and something we are working on.

Originally Posted by P View Post
I don't think very many will do that, so that market is gone. What I'm getting at is that you might get some additional revenue by selling a low-priced version to those gamers.
Yes but that in reality means giving free copies to these gamers (you bought the game a while ago which means no revenue to share). What would stop all new Mac users using the PC price on Steam (potentially discounted) and then having the Mac game no longer covering its own development costs? You have to be fair to all Mac users and also cover the development costs of the Mac version. We don't make millions and smoke cuban cigars, we charge what we need to cover the development costs and allow us to keep making games. The SteamPlay system in it's current format does not work for us in that regard.

Originally Posted by P View Post
It shouldn't be cheaper than a new Mac version - in fact, it can be slightly more expensive. Steam is incidental to this discussion - you can sell it any way you like, but I doubt that Apple will be interested in selling two versions, and Steam IS convenient.
App Store you could argue as it is built in etc is the most convenient but as you say that is a debate for another day.

I understand people who are PC gamers on a Mac and use Steam would love to have free Mac copies but the side effects of doing this impact on everything else in some way so it is not a simple choice. I am not saying for the odd game it might not work but for right now we are not on Steam, but that is not a permanent thing it all depends on what the future holds.

We are not inflexible and we always review our choices whenever things change, yet for now we have decided for various reason both public and private not to have our games in Steam. We are always working to improve the time between the Mac and PC so you know the Mac version is coming sooner and many other things to make the Mac version the best version to own.

I think I will have to leave it here for now as details of commercial agreements should remain private and I could overstep the mark by accident, but thank you for your commentary even if we don't / can't explain everything in public forums we do listen and evaluate things with the aim of making the user have the best experience, while also being able to cover our costs. As someone who posted in MacNN a lot as a Mac gamer before becoming a Mac game maker I see both sides better than most and I have also learnt what looks simple on the outside usually is far from it on the inside!

Cheers,

Edwin
     
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May 28, 2012, 01:22 PM
 
Originally Posted by edddeduck View Post
I can see how you might want to think that, but that not at all what I mean, I was showing that either price argument is flawed.

If the development costs are all paid for by one company, that same company developed both games and the game is ONLY sold Mac/PC combined SKU in all stores worldwide then your logic would work. However if you have two SKU's (Mac and PC) with two different companies, two different budgets, two different orders of scale (Mac and PC sales figures are vastly different) then it hard to have the maths all work out and get all the companies to agree to what is fair terms.

The game is usually discounted once it has covered costs, however with less users the Mac takes longer to cover it's costs so you are at an impasse. With a dual SKU you either keep the PC price higher or make the Mac port loss making (or cover the loss under marketing budget or something). I was showing no matter how you slice it both methods will not work. My aim is not to argue every little point with you but to show that this is not a simple cut and dry argument there are many potential issues that are not first apparent. Some mentioned here some not.
Believe it or not, I'm not here to complain. I'm trying to come up with a constructive solution to what I see as a problem - namely, that the existence of Bootcamp is drawing off users, thereby reducing profitability of Mac games, while simultaneously making those users use something that is not their preferred platform. I'm well aware that it is not cut and dried, but I also think that I'm not quite getting through to you.

You have costs X to develop the game, and costs Y for each additional game sold. To become profitable, you need to sell A number of games at price B such that A*(B-Y) > X. If you sell at multiple price points, that equation becomes A1*(B1-Y1)+A2*(B2-Y2) > X etc, but let's keep it simple. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that X is way bigger and more important than Y - for downloads, that's basically credit card processing and bandwidth. If that's on the App Store, I guess it's 30% of B, right? Presumably Steam uses a similar model.

Now, if I buy the PC version or get a free copy is all the same to you - you don't have more costs from me getting a free copy. This is the important part here.

Originally Posted by edddeduck View Post
The PC version on steam (with all DLC) costs £32.17 to purchase.
The Mac release on the AppStore with the same content costs £34.99.
That is a price difference of under £3.

Now if you are comparing buying the PC version (and getting the Mac version for free) compared to buying them separately then yes you are correct. Buying two games costs more than buying one. When I bought a copy of F1 2011 for my XBox 360 I did not get a free copy for my PS3 so I could play against my PS3 friends, I would have to buy it again. Do Codemasters expect me to buy it again? No they don't, they expect me to choose. As a Mac publisher we would love to have Mac owners buy our copy but if they buy the PC version then that's their choice and it's a sale we have likely lost.

Sure having free copies for PC owners would be great but it comes at a cost.
No it doesn't, and that's the point. Your worry is decreased revenue from sales of the dedicated Mac version, which is a different thing. A minor point, perhaps, but it's one you could make something out of.

Originally Posted by edddeduck View Post
No, we don't expect a sale as you already own the game, then again if you have completed the game in Bootcamp we would not expect a Mac sale. We would expect a few sales from PC players if we have a flash sale but for the initial launch, no we would not expect them to pay again.
So any sale to a person who bought the PC version is a bonus. Even if you charged $2, that's $2 more than you would have had without the sale, and it's certainly value to the user. With DLC becoming such a big part of gaming, it's not impossible that someone would like to return to a game months later. Your only worry is that you would lose sales of the full-price Mac version to a combination of a sale on the PC version somewhere and your lower-priced Mac pack.

Originally Posted by edddeduck View Post
The lack of information about the Mac version as it is late compared to the PC is a fair point and something we are working on.

Yes but that in reality means giving free copies to these gamers (you bought the game a while ago which means no revenue to share). What would stop all new Mac users using the PC price on Steam (potentially discounted) and then having the Mac game no longer covering its own development costs?
Making that the more expensive way. You don't have to sell those extra licenses forever - say two weeks after release of the Mac version - and then sync that so that there are no Steam sales during those two weeks. I think you'd have to launch before the game is permanently discounted in any case.

Originally Posted by edddeduck View Post
You have to be fair to all Mac users and also cover the development costs of the Mac version. We don't make millions and smoke cuban cigars, we charge what we need to cover the development costs and allow us to keep making games. The SteamPlay system in it's current format does not work for us in that regard.
This is where you're misunderstanding my point. I'm not trying to get you to lower prices - I'm saying that there is an opportunity for extra sales.

Originally Posted by edddeduck View Post
App Store you could argue as it is built in etc is the most convenient but as you say that is a debate for another day.
Sure, but I somehow doubt that Apple will make a PC version of it.

Originally Posted by edddeduck View Post
I understand people who are PC gamers on a Mac and use Steam would love to have free Mac copies but the side effects of doing this impact on everything else in some way so it is not a simple choice. I am not saying for the odd game it might not work but for right now we are not on Steam, but that is not a permanent thing it all depends on what the future holds.

We are not inflexible and we always review our choices whenever things change, yet for now we have decided for various reason both public and private not to have our games in Steam. We are always working to improve the time between the Mac and PC so you know the Mac version is coming sooner and many other things to make the Mac version the best version to own.
I'm not asking for free. Free would be great, but I know that Things Cost Money. Actually, just knowing that the Mac version IS coming would be great. Since I often stay on the Mac side for months without rebooting, going back to that hoary old XP installation is not pleasant, and just getting the game to install and work is not pleasant (especially as the iMac has a mobile GPU, and getting the latest drivers to even install on it requires some hacking). If I knew that the Mac version was two months away (or whatever), I'd wait.

Originally Posted by edddeduck View Post
I think I will have to leave it here for now as details of commercial agreements should remain private and I could overstep the mark by accident, but thank you for your commentary even if we don't / can't explain everything in public forums we do listen and evaluate things with the aim of making the user have the best experience, while also being able to cover our costs. As someone who posted in MacNN a lot as a Mac gamer before becoming a Mac game maker I see both sides better than most and I have also learnt what looks simple on the outside usually is far from it on the inside!

Cheers,

Edwin
I understand if you can't go into details on a public forum. I'm just trying to communicate what for me is a frustrating situation. Just for example: I'm probably going to be buying Max Payne 3 on Friday. I'd love to be buying that on the Mac, but...that isn't going to happen, is it? What I'm seeing from the outside is this wonderful idea of cross-platform gaming dying just because the licensing can't be managed. I like what Valve is trying to achieve with Steam, but they're also gamers - they must understand if the current way isn't working and hopefully be open to modify the setup.

Another idea, btw: One could sell a preorder for the Mac version of a game (through Steam or through whatever) when the PC game launches, and include the PC version as a preorder bonus. If they're tied to an account (e.g. Steam, but it doesn't have to be that), both cannot be used at the same time anyway.
The new Mac Pro has up to 30 MB of cache inside the processor itself. That's more than the HD in my first Mac. Somehow I'm still running out of space.
     
Leonard
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Jul 11, 2012, 11:51 AM
 
How was Deus Ex? Was it any good? How long is the game? I'm looking for an Xbox single player game that will keep me occupied for a month or 2.
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Leonard
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Jul 11, 2012, 12:20 PM
 
Never mind, I found another thread with the review... http://forums.macnn.com/0/forum/446562/deus-ex-human-revolution
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Jul 12, 2012, 02:18 AM
 
It's the free game on PS plus at the moment for us European types. http://m.joystiq.com/2012/07/03/deus-ex-human-revolution-augments-euro-playstation-plus-this-mo/

It'll be much easier if you just comply.
     
Leonard
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Jul 12, 2012, 11:39 AM
 
Yeah, I'm not sure if I'm interested in it. The game sounds too Stealth oriented.
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Jul 12, 2012, 11:58 PM
 
It really is a very good game. My standards are exceptionally high, because of how the first game let you play anything several ways (usually at least one stealthy, one that relied on bypassing locks and alarms, and one that was a straight fight). This one mixes all of these up, but you do not always have the choice - sometimes you have to fight, and sometimes you basically have to sneak because of lack of ammo etc.
The new Mac Pro has up to 30 MB of cache inside the processor itself. That's more than the HD in my first Mac. Somehow I'm still running out of space.
     
moonmonkey
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Jul 14, 2012, 12:51 PM
 
It it great fun if you play it aggressively, just shoot everything.
I always play half stealth and half psycho, has served me well.
     
knifecarrier2
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Aug 8, 2012, 05:31 AM
 
Best. Game. Ever.
     
Tyraell
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Sep 21, 2012, 05:01 AM
 
Didn't interested it
     
   
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