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iCloud: Place Your Bets
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lpkmckenna
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Jun 1, 2011, 07:08 AM
 
Ok, iCloud is coming. But what is it?

For certain, it will be a digital storage locker for your music. Anything else?

How about folding MobileMe and iWork.com into it? My guess is yes.

Will iCloud finally free us all from tethered syncing to iTunes? God I hope so.

Will it be free? My guess is yes, at least for a basic package. It's about damn time for free address syncing for iOS, at least. And I can't imagine paying money for music storage when I've got several GBs in my own phone.
     
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Jun 1, 2011, 07:18 AM
 
Originally Posted by lpkmckenna View Post
Ok, iCloud is coming. But what is it?
A hop onto a bandwagon?
Been inclined to wander... off the beaten track.
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The Final Dakar
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Jun 1, 2011, 09:44 AM
 
All I know is after years of this crap, I really don't care any more. How long ago did they buy that cloud company?
     
SSharon
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Jun 1, 2011, 09:46 AM
 
I don't have my expectations set very high.

It won't be free to prevent users from wasting its space and resources.
It won't have any must-have features that will keep us talking about them in a month from now.
It will offer a time machine backup solution.
It will offer a limited amount of storage space for music (I'm guessing 10gb).
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Jun 1, 2011, 09:52 AM
 
Originally Posted by SSharon View Post
I don't have my expectations set very high.

It won't be free to prevent users from wasting its space and resources.
It won't have any must-have features that will keep us talking about them in a month from now.
It will offer a time machine backup solution.
It will offer a limited amount of storage space for music (I'm guessing 10gb).
It will be the answer to the question "What is that big server farm in NC for?"
     
lpkmckenna  (op)
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Jun 1, 2011, 10:17 AM
 
Originally Posted by SSharon View Post
It will offer a time machine backup solution.
Oh, forgot about that one. That would be nice, but an iCloud Time Machine would have to be reworked to make it practical. For instance, instead of backing up everything, just the delta between a base install and what you have. That way, the iCloud could keep a single instance of the base install, then everyone's delta separate. But in the end, a local Time Machine install is a lot more reasonable, since an iCloud backup of my games and ripped DVDs isn't very attractive to Apple. But a surprise here would be nice, like iCloud backups of office docs and iPhoto libraries, which would also be easier to now share.
It will offer a limited amount of storage space for music (I'm guessing 10gb).
If they stream from their own iTunes Store, they don't require more storage space, just lots of bandwidth. If they don't have a version a song, only then would they need an uploaded copy.

EDIT: I wonder if Apple is also unrolling their own version of Spotify?
EDIT2: after all, they did purchase Lala.
( Last edited by lpkmckenna; Jun 1, 2011 at 10:47 AM. )
     
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Jun 1, 2011, 10:20 AM
 
Apple has a history of being crap in this arena. Lets hope they won't be ****ing this one up too.
     
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Jun 1, 2011, 10:22 AM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
All I know is after years of this crap, I really don't care any more.
Little Timmy just shed a tear over that comment.

"The natural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to gain ground." TJ
     
SSharon
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Jun 1, 2011, 10:37 AM
 
Originally Posted by lpkmckenna View Post
Oh, forgot about that one. That would be nice, but an iCloud Time Machine would have to be reworked to make it practical. For instance, instead of backing up everything, just the delta between a base install and what you have. That way, the iCloud could keep a single instance of the base install, then everyone's delta separate. But in the end, a local Time Machine install is a lot more reasonable, since an iCloud backup of my games and ripped DVDs isn't very attractive to Apple. But a surprise here would be nice, like iCloud backups of office docs and iPhoto libraries, which would also be easier to now share.
If they stream from their own iTunes Store, they don't require more storage space, just lots of bandwidth. If they don't have a version a song, only then would they need an uploaded copy.

EDIT: I wonder if Apple is also unrolling their own version of Spotify?
Yea, I should have added, it will be for the home folder only. Picture backups would be a great feature for me.

I have tons of music that isn't on the itunes store and I'm sure other people do as well. I remember reading a rumor that it will stream a higher quality version of the song than you have, but does anyone know what format apple stores the music in? If I pay for a music storage locker and I don't compress my music at all I expect Apple to backup at least the same quality files.
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The Final Dakar
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Jun 1, 2011, 10:40 AM
 
Originally Posted by Big Mac View Post
Little Timmy just shed a tear over that comment.
...I don't understand.
     
Big Mac
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Jun 1, 2011, 10:42 AM
 
The Final Dakar not caring about Apple's announcements anymore. Sad.

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The Final Dakar
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Jun 1, 2011, 10:48 AM
 
Originally Posted by Big Mac View Post
The Final Dakar not caring about Apple's announcements anymore. Sad.
Nah, it's just this one. Maybe it will be something impressive, but this strikes me as something that could have been done (two years ago?) when they bought the company and technology and they've been dragging their heels either because they didn't have the balls to be the first out of the gate or because like MobileMe, stuff like this is a second-class citizen to them.

Either way, not only am I not on the hype train, I haven't even bothered to go to the station and watch it whizz by.
     
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Jun 1, 2011, 10:59 AM
 
$50. No, hit me! Call.

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SSharon
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Jun 1, 2011, 11:17 AM
 
Originally Posted by SpaceMonkey View Post
$50. No, hit me! Call.
Is that per hour?
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SpaceMonkey
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Jun 1, 2011, 11:20 AM
 
Depends on what options you want.

You a cop? You have cop hair.

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SpaceMonkey
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Jun 1, 2011, 11:24 AM
 
Originally Posted by lpkmckenna View Post
Ok, iCloud is coming. But what is it?

For certain, it will be a digital storage locker for your music. Anything else?

How about folding MobileMe and iWork.com into it? My guess is yes.

Will iCloud finally free us all from tethered syncing to iTunes? God I hope so.

Will it be free? My guess is yes, at least for a basic package. It's about damn time for free address syncing for iOS, at least. And I can't imagine paying money for music storage when I've got several GBs in my own phone.
I think all of that is right, but you will end up paying for what will probably seem like a trivial amount of storage.

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imitchellg5
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Jun 1, 2011, 11:37 AM
 
Well, it'll have to be good enough to get me off of Google Music, which is actually quite well-done.
     
ort888
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Jun 1, 2011, 11:39 AM
 
I'm betting that it will be a bunch of stuff I'm not that interested in.

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ajprice
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Jun 1, 2011, 11:50 AM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Nah, it's just this one. Maybe it will be something impressive, but this strikes me as something that could have been done (two years ago?) when they bought the company and technology and they've been dragging their heels either because they didn't have the balls to be the first out of the gate or because like MobileMe, stuff like this is a second-class citizen to them.

Either way, not only am I not on the hype train, I haven't even bothered to go to the station and watch it whizz by.
Or its a big part of iOS5 and OS X Lion. 2 years ago Snow Leopard was basically a optimisation update of Leopard and the iPhone OS was at 3.0 when they added copy/paste.

Lion should be a feature update and iOS isn't a new thing that they are adding basic features to anymore, what's been seen so far of Lion with iOS style icon screens and folders is bringing OS X and iOS closer to each other. Whatever iCloud does will be across both systems, they've had 2 years to build it in.

Switching that on and showing 2 new systems is going to be a big thing even if there isn't new hardware.

It'll be much easier if you just comply.
     
The Final Dakar
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Jun 1, 2011, 11:52 AM
 
We'll see. I remember big expectations for MobileMe. And .mac before that.
     
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Jun 1, 2011, 12:59 PM
 
What ever it is... it won't be free.
     
Spheric Harlot
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Jun 1, 2011, 01:18 PM
 
Originally Posted by lpkmckenna View Post
Ok, iCloud is coming. But what is it?

For certain, it will be a digital storage locker for your music. Anything else?
Actually, I think that is pretty precisely what it is probably NOT going to be.

It is not going to be an upload service for your music archive - that's badly scalable, and of limited usefulness to many, many people.

Consider spending two or three weeks uploading your music collection to a cloud server, that also charges you triple fee for using the capacity you need, because you're interested enough in music to actually have a substantial library.

Or you limit yourself to some percentage of your collection, which you then tediously upload, only to have basically exactly the same thing as just storing it on the streaming-capable player in the first place, except with the awesome disadvantage of NOT having it available when you have no network connection.

The Amazon thing is total bullshit, but they didn't attempt to get licensing deals for what will probably make Apple's service special: the ability to stream your stuff from Apple's servers WITHOUT having to upload it.

I'm hoping they'll allow streaming from the home library for everything that isn't on Apple's iTunes catalog.
     
imitchellg5
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Jun 1, 2011, 01:31 PM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
The Amazon thing is total bullshit, but they didn't attempt to get licensing deals for what will probably make Apple's service special: the ability to stream your stuff from Apple's servers WITHOUT having to upload it.
That's exactly what most of the rumors have been for. Or else Apple's purchase of Lala would be useless (Lala had the rights to stream tracks from its own library, much like Rdio).
     
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Jun 1, 2011, 01:44 PM
 
iPod Cloudâ„¢.
     
lpkmckenna  (op)
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Jun 1, 2011, 01:53 PM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
Actually, I think that is pretty precisely what it is probably NOT going to be.

It is not going to be an upload service for your music archive - that's badly scalable, and of limited usefulness to many, many people.

Consider spending two or three weeks uploading your music collection to a cloud server, that also charges you triple fee for using the capacity you need, because you're interested enough in music to actually have a substantial library.

Or you limit yourself to some percentage of your collection, which you then tediously upload, only to have basically exactly the same thing as just storing it on the streaming-capable player in the first place, except with the awesome disadvantage of NOT having it available when you have no network connection.

The Amazon thing is total bullshit, but they didn't attempt to get licensing deals for what will probably make Apple's service special: the ability to stream your stuff from Apple's servers WITHOUT having to upload it.

I'm hoping they'll allow streaming from the home library for everything that isn't on Apple's iTunes catalog.
That's exactly what I said. Seriously. Go back and read my second comment.
     
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Jun 1, 2011, 02:23 PM
 
I've started paying for a rdio.com subscription. $120.00/year, offline play on mobile devices, custom radio stations, works well on little bandwidth.
     
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Jun 1, 2011, 03:03 PM
 
Originally Posted by lpkmckenna View Post
That's exactly what I said. Seriously. Go back and read my second comment.
No, it's not.

Imagining that they will upload around 200 GB of my music to their servers because they don't have it in their catalogue, while charging me the same as others — quite apart from that taking months over an average pipe — is NOT the same as hoping for streaming from my home library (Back to my Mac plus new iCloud streaming service) for the music they don't carry.

The "music locker" aspect is bullshit and not going to happen.
     
imitchellg5
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Jun 1, 2011, 03:42 PM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
No, it's not.

Imagining that they will upload around 200 GB of my music to their servers because they don't have it in their catalogue, while charging me the same as others — quite apart from that taking months over an average pipe — is NOT the same as hoping for streaming from my home library (Back to my Mac plus new iCloud streaming service) for the music they don't carry.

The "music locker" aspect is bullshit and not going to happen.
Can you not read?

Originally Posted by lpkmckenna View Post
If they stream from their own iTunes Store, they don't require more storage space, just lots of bandwidth. If they don't have a version a song, only then would they need an uploaded copy.
     
Spheric Harlot
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Jun 1, 2011, 04:12 PM
 
Originally Posted by imitchellg5 View Post
Can you not read?
yes, I read well.

THEY DO NOT UPLOAD A COPY, BECAUSE YOU STREAM IT FROM YOUR HOME MACHINE.

****dammit, how many times do I have to spell it out?
     
The Final Dakar
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Jun 1, 2011, 04:15 PM
 
Now I'm practically rooting against it, if only for this argument to have been completely in vain.
     
ort888
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Jun 1, 2011, 04:16 PM
 
So people are going to stream their music collections from their closed laptops at home?

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Jun 1, 2011, 04:20 PM
 
Originally Posted by ort888 View Post
So people are going to stream their music collections from their closed laptops at home?
Don't be silly - their laptops will be with them. Therefore, they'll stream from the open laptop they have with them, via the Apple cloud server, to the open laptop they have with them.
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Jun 1, 2011, 04:23 PM
 
I think it's a safe bet to expect the following when it comes to music streaming:

1. iTunes Store purchases will NOT need to be uploaded. They will stream from a central copy on Apple's servers.

2. All other music WILL need to be uploaded. IF, and only if, the music labels even allow Apple to do this. They may very well refuse to allow this given their perennial, overblown concerns over "piracy". Since there is no practical way to "prove" you ripped a song from your own CD collection or purchased it from a competing online service in a manner that would scale ... it is altogether possible that non-iTunes Store purchases won't even be allowed.

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Jun 1, 2011, 04:23 PM
 
Originally Posted by Phileas View Post
I've started paying for a rdio.com subscription. $120.00/year, offline play on mobile devices, custom radio stations, works well on little bandwidth.
How is this better than Pandora at $36/year + one of the many Pandora recorders? I spent a day recording one new station and got 130+ new songs on my iPod.
     
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Jun 1, 2011, 04:25 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
How is this better than Pandora at $36/year + one of the many Pandora recorders? I spent a day recording one new station and got 130+ new songs on my iPod.
It's legal?

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Jun 1, 2011, 04:45 PM
 
Originally Posted by ort888 View Post
So people are going to stream their music collections from their closed laptops at home?
I've never met anybody who managed to fold up their iMac or Mac mini, but you do have a point.

A couple of counter-remarks, though:

1. Time Capsule/Airport Extreme have support for MobileMe DynDNS a.k.a. Back to my Mac, plus they can make available externally any attached storage devices.

2. All newer Macs have the capacity to get woken up by network access via Wi-Fi.

-------
I obviously don't know what they're planning, but I still believe that uploading stuff is bogus. Where are they gonna draw the line? Are they going to at all? It would basically mean that anybody with their collection haphazardly or incorrectly labeled would have their entire collection uploaded. That would apply to potentially millions of customers. My collection alone would probably be a hundred or more gigs of stuff not in their catalogue, and mine is meticulously tagged.

Would they go the Amazon route and charge per gigabyte? Except for the arbitrary "but not for what we carry in iTunes"? Does that mean that I get charged less when they add music I have to their distribution deal?

Or just a "We've scanned your library, and have determined that in order to use the iCloud service you've subscribed to, you'll have to pay an extra $250 a year"?

It maketh no sense.
     
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Jun 1, 2011, 04:46 PM
 
Is it illegal to record the radio onto cassette tapes?
     
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Jun 1, 2011, 04:53 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
Is it illegal to record the radio onto cassette tapes?
Depends where you are. For you, yes. For me, yes. For the Canuckstanis, no.
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Jun 1, 2011, 04:59 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
How is this better than Pandora at $36/year + one of the many Pandora recorders? I spent a day recording one new station and got 130+ new songs on my iPod.
8.5 million songs vs. pandora's 700,000.
On demand complete album streaming.
Music available for offline playing on mobile devices.
Social aspect done right - what ping wishes it were.

It's like a big, streaming iTunes. I don't care about "owning" most music, I am happy to rent access to it for a reasonable fee. Stuff I really want to own, I buy on vinyl.
     
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Jun 1, 2011, 05:50 PM
 
It will be more expensive than people hope
There will be less storage than you really want/need
It will be hyped like the end of the world
It will all fall over two days into the launch
It will never really work as well as you want
It will slide into a developmentless limbo
The interface will be waaay slick
This space for Hire! Reasonable rates. Reach an audience of literally dozens!
     
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Jun 1, 2011, 06:13 PM
 
Some sort of unified file storage system that you can access from any Mac or iOS device. Similar to dropbox. Items in this online locker would be synced. This would finally give iOS devices access to real files in a more traditional manner. For example, a PDF in your locker could be opened with any iOS app. Or you could save a file from any app on your phone and it would get saved into your locker for use with any other computer or app.

Music stored in the cloud. Any song you download from Apple would be available anytime. A certain amount of storage would then be available to you for uploading your own songs. More storage would be available for an additional fee. Paying into the paid version of iCloud would grant you access to a streaming service similar to Pandora, only you would have magical playlists generated that contain both songs you own and songs that iTunes would recommend. There will be some sort of easy way to purchase or tag songs that iTunes recommends.

A small amount of storage and streaming of purchased iTunes songs will be free. They may try and set up some sort of system where you would get storage based on devices owned. So buying an iPad would come with an additional 5 gigs of space or something. So people with 10 Apple devices would have a bunch of space compared to someone with one device.

iOS 5 will have some form of widgets and better notifications. It will also feature better customization overall. Custom folder icons. Free Google GPS will be on the iPhone. Unified file storage system tied in to the cloud.

Lion will be available for $49 downloadable from the app store, $99 in box form.

This is all just me talking out of my ass.
( Last edited by ort888; Jun 1, 2011 at 06:20 PM. )

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Jun 1, 2011, 08:30 PM
 
iCloud. It's MobileMe, but with more space, lower cost, that will include an index of your iTunes music and movie library. If Apple has the corresponding content on their marketplace, it'll stream the music and movies to all your devices. No, it won't need to take your music and movies and store them on its end, as long as Apple has it on their marketplace. To fill the gap, anything they don't have, could be stored in the iCloud for you to stream... up to the storage limit for your account.

Just a simple index system/database read from your iTunes lib database file. That's iCloud. A repurposed MobileMe.

I say, not much to see here. Stop overhyping it. It's still going to be MobileMe. Clunky. Slow. Always down. You'll get lots of timeouts. People will get frustrated with it. Cloud stuff sucks and will still suck until we get wicked fast network connectivity on our mobile devices.

Real news will be Lion and iOS 5.
     
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Jun 1, 2011, 09:28 PM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
I obviously don't know what they're planning, but I still believe that uploading stuff is bogus.
I completely understand your skepticism, but I have to point out: they have built a massive data centre for iCloud. Some are saying it is the largest non-gov't data centre in the world. If they aren't gonna permit uploading your music for streaming, what is it there for?

While using Back to My Mac for music streaming sounds like a great idea, it has serious performance bottlenecks that make it an unlikely base for a "game-changing" concept; streaming from dedicated servers with massive bandwidth is much more predictable and consistent. And like it has been suggested, laptop users - Apple's biggest user group - make this concept even less feasible.

Maybe you're right, and music streaming will be iTunes Store content only. So what's the huge data centre for?
     
lpkmckenna  (op)
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Jun 1, 2011, 09:31 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doc HM View Post
It will be more expensive than people hope
There will be less storage than you really want/need
It will be hyped like the end of the world
It will all fall over two days into the launch
It will never really work as well as you want
It will slide into a developmentless limbo
The interface will be waaay slick
Sadly, Apple's history suggests this is almost a complete certainty.
     
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Jun 1, 2011, 09:36 PM
 
Originally Posted by Phileas View Post
Stuff I really want to own, I buy on vinyl.
Hipster...
     
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Jun 1, 2011, 10:28 PM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
yes, I read well.

THEY DO NOT UPLOAD A COPY, BECAUSE YOU STREAM IT FROM YOUR HOME MACHINE.

****dammit, how many times do I have to spell it out?
And how are they going to stream it? It's going to end up being cached on their servers anyway and you'll have to have your Mac up 24/7. Sounds like something Apple would do to me.
     
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Jun 2, 2011, 02:40 AM
 
A few things going on before WWDC:

Apple own the icloud.com domain now (also icloud.org), rights have transferred. http://www.macrumors.com/2011/06/01/...of-icloud-com/
Apple Stores are low or out of stock of Airport and Time Capsule. http://www.macrumors.com/2011/06/01/...apsule-stocks/
iOS iMovie and GarageBand have been updated. http://www.tuaw.com/2011/06/01/garag...-ipad-updated/
iPhone versions of iWork apps have been released. http://www.tuaw.com/2011/05/31/iwork...ne-ipod-touch/
( Last edited by ajprice; Jun 2, 2011 at 04:40 AM. Reason: Edited to add links.)

It'll be much easier if you just comply.
     
Doofy
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Join Date: Jul 2005
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Jun 2, 2011, 03:06 AM
 
^ I hope this isn't some kind of stupid cloud replacement for Time Capsule.
Been inclined to wander... off the beaten track.
That's where there's thunder... and the wind shouts back.
     
Big Mac
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Location: Los Angeles
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Jun 2, 2011, 04:19 AM
 
It sounds like it could be if Time Capsule retail supplies are dwindling.

It won't just be an iTunes service. iCloud may be a beefed up form of iDisk.

"The natural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to gain ground." TJ
     
Spheric Harlot
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Jun 2, 2011, 04:20 AM
 
Originally Posted by imitchellg5 View Post
And how are they going to stream it? It's going to end up being cached on their servers anyway and you'll have to have your Mac up 24/7. Sounds like something Apple would do to me.
The same way SimplifyMedia, MyTunesRSS, Submariner, and whatever other services did/do it: connect, handshake, start caching on playback device, stream. Transcode as necessary (on the computer; perhaps Apple will do that in da cloud).
     
 
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