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jocker · Mar 17, 2005, 06:57 AM

And by all accounts, its very very nearly ready ;-) outstanding issues are only javascript, idisk syncing, and lexmark Z series printer support.

http://www.appleinsider.com/news.php?id=956

sniffer · Mar 17, 2005, 07:05 AM

Any takers if I'll need to update my student ADC to get Tiger now if it ships in April? My account is ending in may. (This is good news btw)

juanvaldes · Mar 17, 2005, 07:10 AM

Originally posted by sniffer:
Any takers if I'll need to update my student ADC to get Tiger now if it ships in April? My account is ending in may. (This is good news btw)

Do you actually use the membership? Or is it just a way to get OS updates on the cheap?

gmsmith · Mar 17, 2005, 07:46 AM

Student memberships don't get access to software seeds.

I haven't installed 8a414 yet (downloading at 762KB/sec) from Apple, but the readme looks very promising. There is one key issue on the Server build that is disabled so we are *at least* one build away maybe more.

Millennium · Mar 17, 2005, 07:52 AM

Originally posted by gmsmith:
Student memberships don't get access to software seeds.

Not entirely true; they have occasionally gotten seeds in the past, but never according to the regular schedule.

Either way, if it's not ready yet, then there is no way that it will be released on April 15, as ThinkSecret suggested. It will take longer than that just to print and package the CDs/DVDs, and that doesn't even take into account getting them to the vendors. An April 30 release might be possible, but even this is stretching things awfully tight.

gmsmith · Mar 17, 2005, 07:57 AM

As a part of membership benefits they do not get access to software betas/seeds...now there might be occasional exceptions, but that is the rule.

You would be amazed what can be done in 4 weeks

Time will tell

sniffer · Mar 17, 2005, 08:30 AM

Originally posted by juanvaldes:
Do you actually use the membership? Or is it just a way to get OS updates on the cheap?

I got motivated to apply for ADC hardware discount, the OS updates was just a surprising bonus. Secondly it's relevant for my path of education.

I am not so interested in seeds, but a GM would've been nice. Thanks for the inputs folks.

JLL · Mar 17, 2005, 08:34 AM

Originally posted by gmsmith:
There is one key issue on the Server build that is disabled so we are *at least* one build away maybe more.

We are certainly more than one build away.

ManOfSteal · Mar 17, 2005, 09:06 AM

Originally posted by JLL:
We are certainly more than one build away.

Exactly. I would say in a normal given day, Apple produces at least 3-4 internal builds.

schuey100 · Mar 17, 2005, 09:55 AM

A friend of mine was in the UK Apple Store today and was told it would be released on April the 15th.

gmsmith · Mar 17, 2005, 10:17 AM

Yes, I would agree...I was specifically referring to ADC released builds.

Originally posted by ManOfSteal:
Exactly. I would say in a normal given day, Apple produces at least 3-4 internal builds.

Oh and by the way, my uncle's brother's sister's father-in law was told by the brother of the guy who cleans the floor in front of Steve Jobs as he walks in the halls of Cupertino that the release will be ....

Diggory Laycock · Mar 17, 2005, 11:26 AM

Originally posted by schuey100:
A friend of mine was in the UK Apple Store today and was told it would be released on April the 15th.

By someone in a *shop*

Or was he also hacking away at Darwin and iChatting Steve at the same time?

wtmcgee · Mar 17, 2005, 11:50 AM

I think we'll see one more build releasd within the next week or so, and after that, these april 15 rumors may be true.

CatOne · Mar 17, 2005, 02:16 PM

Originally posted by ManOfSteal:
Exactly. I would say in a normal given day, Apple produces at least 3-4 internal builds.

Sounds like a lot of builds!

Given 393 was released about 3 weeks ago, and 414 was released yesterday, I think you're overestimating. Looks a bit more like 1 a day

ManOfSteal · Mar 17, 2005, 02:48 PM

Originally posted by CatOne:
Sounds like a lot of builds!

Given 393 was released about 3 weeks ago, and 414 was released yesterday, I think you're overestimating. Looks a bit more like 1 a day

Sorry, 3-4/day at the beginning of development and 1/day towards the end...that makes sense I suppose.

Kenneth · Mar 17, 2005, 03:06 PM

I received the DP4 and Release Candidate 1 with my ADC Student membership.. that's it. Of course, I also got those GM version.

wtmcgee · Mar 17, 2005, 05:46 PM

Current ADC members will get Tiger, but that's about it. It's been quite some time since I've heard about any seeds sent to students.

Chuckit · Mar 17, 2005, 05:49 PM

[insert Snappy� joke here]

By the way, I don't think final OS releases count as seeds, do they? I didn't think you needed a seed key for them. So unless I'm mixed up (always a possibility, of course), sniffer should be okay.

gmsmith · Mar 17, 2005, 05:51 PM

Yes, you will need a seed key, unless you want to buy the software.

Kenneth · Mar 17, 2005, 08:19 PM

It used to allow ADC Student account holders to buy the Mac OS X Server for just $99. I grabbed the 10.1 Server.

nforcer · Mar 17, 2005, 08:40 PM

Originally posted by Millennium:
Either way, if it's not ready yet, then there is no way that it will be released on April 15, as ThinkSecret suggested. It will take longer than that just to print and package the CDs/DVDs, and that doesn't even take into account getting them to the vendors. An April 30 release might be possible, but even this is stretching things awfully tight.

I agree. I have a hard time seeing Apple hitting an April 15 release date unless everything is done and ready to go. Perhaps they already printed the boxes and manuals, and have secured dates to mass manufacture the CDs/DVDs. But so far Apple has said nothing about April 15 being the official day, and I don't think it makes much sense to give customers and vendors any less than a month of preparation time. If April 15 is correct, this is the biggest OS release yet and they are just going to silently release it, or only give a couple weeks notice? That would not seem to be the best idea to me.

cpac · Mar 17, 2005, 09:04 PM

Originally posted by nforcer:
If April 15 is correct, this is the biggest OS release yet and they are just going to silently release it, or only give a couple weeks notice? That would not seem to be the best idea to me.

Eh?

Mac fans go nuts for months even before products are announced (like us, right now). By comparison, we're pretty mild once a product has been announced.

I make no claim with respect to whether or not an April 15th ship date is feasible, but if it is, I don't see any marketing or PR reason for Apple not to ship it. It's not like inventory is going to take up a lot of space at retailers or that it'll be hard to stack up the boxes in an attractive way or anything...

Millennium · Mar 17, 2005, 09:08 PM

Originally posted by Chuckit:
[insert Snappy� joke here]

By the way, I don't think final OS releases count as seeds, do they?

The final releases aren't seeds per se, but they aren't offered for download either. GM builds -which are supposed to be identical to the release- are seeded like any other build, though. Also, developers tend to get final releases as separate mailings: not seeds, but another kind of bundle. It's a perk.

ADC Student doesn't get you seeds, but they will sometimes send public releases of system software anyway. They did this with the OSX Public Beta, the 4K78 seed (which seems to have been a special exception to the no-seeds thing), and the final 10.0 release. Before this, they routinely sent out final OS9 releases. My ADC Student membership expired shortly after this, so I don't know if they continued sending final releases after that.

In any case, even if ADC Student does not get you final releases for free, you do get discounts.

ashtoash · Mar 17, 2005, 09:14 PM

Why do you have trouble seeing that? Have you used 393 or the latest? It's nearly ready. It will be finished in about 10 days. It's as stable as 10.3.8 and then some.

Originally posted by nforcer:
I agree. I have a hard time seeing Apple hitting an April 15 release date unless everything is done and ready to go. Perhaps they already printed the boxes and manuals, and have secured dates to mass manufacture the CDs/DVDs. But so far Apple has said nothing about April 15 being the official day, and I don't think it makes much sense to give customers and vendors any less than a month of preparation time. If April 15 is correct, this is the biggest OS release yet and they are just going to silently release it, or only give a couple weeks notice? That would not seem to be the best idea to me.

Millennium · Mar 17, 2005, 09:54 PM

Originally posted by ashtoash:
Why do you have trouble seeing that? Have you used 393 or the latest? It's nearly ready. It will be finished in about 10 days.

The code might be. But there's more to an OS release than code. Among other things, the candidate is probably going to have to go through a vicious QA regression-test cycle, to make certain that everything is OK (and if it doesn't go through such a cycle, then my respect for Apple will be going down a few notches).

It's as stable as 10.3.8 and then some.

Stability is an important part -a vital one, in fact- of deeming a release complete and ready for production, but it is not the only thing that matters. You will note that of the major bugs people have listed none involve crashing, but there will still be at least one more build.

Printing manuals and boxes can be done ahead of the OS release, but this is extremely risky business. Even once this is done, however, the discs cannot be stamped until the code is cleared. They must then be labeled and packaged, and there will need to be several hundred thousand of these packages made at the absolute least. Automated mass production is very fast these days, but it cannot work miracles.

Then there's the issue of shipping. Certainly it is possible to ship overnight, but this is expensive, particularly for this many items. More likely it will be shipped over 2-3 days.

Apple does have one thing on its side: Spring Break does not happen in the Cupertino school district until April 18. Engineers will be taking time off of work at that point, to spend time with their kids or teaching spouses. Good managers are aware of this and don't count it into their estimates, but if Tiger is delayed past April 15 -as seems likely- then it's extremely unlikely to come out until April 30.

What is with this pathetic LAGS (Latest-And-Greatest Syndrome) that people have, anyway? It'll come out when it comes out, and there is no point bouncing up and down like a chihuahua on meth in anticipation. Even the Windows users don't get this riled up over things, and they have better reason to do so than us given how far behind they start.

nforcer · Mar 17, 2005, 11:11 PM

Originally posted by cpac:
I make no claim with respect to whether or not an April 15th ship date is feasible, but if it is, I don't see any marketing or PR reason for Apple not to ship it. It's not like inventory is going to take up a lot of space at retailers or that it'll be hard to stack up the boxes in an attractive way or anything...

Ads in various magazines, mail order catalogs, etc. have to be made and purchased in advance. Production (manufacturing the CDs and boxes) should not take that long, but getting everything sold and distributed to various resellers, retailers, and other channels can take a while.

As Millennium pointed out, while the code may be near complete, quality assurance and other associated processes with a product take time, too.

ashtoash · Mar 17, 2005, 11:14 PM

I think your not familar with this. It's tested everyday all day. There is no such "test cycle" where you stop after development for 3 weeks and only test it. Not happening. Sometimes they wait a week just to be safe. But's it's been tested through and through. OS 10.3.8 has over 200 bugs documented. Tiger currently has about 35 (obscure stuff that few will notice). There is ALWAYS bugs. There is no perfect OS. Printing of 10.4 boxes has been finished, as well as printing the disks. The only thing remaining is to press and ship them.

As for pathetic latest and greatest. There is actually a word that discribes latest and greatest in the dictionary. It's called technology.

Originally posted by Millennium:
The code might be. But there's more to an OS release than code. Among other things, the candidate is probably going to have to go through a vicious QA regression-test cycle, to make certain that everything is OK (and if it doesn't go through such a cycle, then my respect for Apple will be going down a few notches).

Stability is an important part -a vital one, in fact- of deeming a release complete and ready for production, but it is not the only thing that matters. You will note that of the major bugs people have listed none involve crashing, but there will still be at least one more build.

Printing manuals and boxes can be done ahead of the OS release, but this is extremely risky business. Even once this is done, however, the discs cannot be stamped until the code is cleared. They must then be labeled and packaged, and there will need to be several hundred thousand of these packages made at the absolute least. Automated mass production is very fast these days, but it cannot work miracles.

Then there's the issue of shipping. Certainly it is possible to ship overnight, but this is expensive, particularly for this many items. More likely it will be shipped over 2-3 days.

Apple does have one thing on its side: Spring Break does not happen in the Cupertino school district until April 18. Engineers will be taking time off of work at that point, to spend time with their kids or teaching spouses. Good managers are aware of this and don't count it into their estimates, but if Tiger is delayed past April 15 -as seems likely- then it's extremely unlikely to come out until April 30.

What is with this pathetic LAGS (Latest-And-Greatest Syndrome) that people have, anyway? It'll come out when it comes out, and there is no point bouncing up and down like a chihuahua on meth in anticipation. Even the Windows users don't get this riled up over things, and they have better reason to do so than us given how far behind they start.

kcmac · Mar 18, 2005, 12:39 AM

No matter the date Tiger is available, it will be more fun this time in KC since we now have an Apple Store. When Panther was available, I stood in line at the MicroCenter and got one of the few available discs. (Along with a mouse pad and a USB flash).

I would suspect that the Apple Store will be stocked with an ample supply and easier to get the first day. Hard to say if I have ever been as an anxious to receive an OS X update as I am with Tiger. But I probably thought that for Panther, and Jaguar and ....

King Bob On The Cob · Mar 18, 2005, 12:39 AM

OMG! OMG! OMG! GOLD MASTER!

(was mentioned one time earlier and I got all excited

)

Autumn · Mar 18, 2005, 01:14 AM

How much is a student ADC membership? What kind of discount does it get you?

jock · Mar 18, 2005, 04:28 AM

Just a note on the Dev cycle.
Happens in three areas, Marketing, Documentation and Developement.
All three areas work together at Apple at the same time,
Build are nightly, you cannot submit code that will break the system.
Look at the past builds and delv into the help, pretty much on par for each release, so for build 414, all the doco will be complete for that build (might not be relesased to developers, but internally it is).
So if there are ( I'm assuming there will be) more builds the documentation will be ready at the same time as the software.
Where does that leave us, well they can still make the 15th.

Millennium · Mar 18, 2005, 06:59 AM

Originally posted by ashtoash:
I think your not familar with this.

Actually, I do it for a living. Not at Apple, but at another large company. There are differences between every QA department, of course, but there are some principles which are pretty standard no matter where you go.

It's tested everyday all day.

Some -even many- automated test cases are run this way, yes, but there are areas where there is simply no substitute for human eyes.

There is no such "test cycle" where you stop after development for 3 weeks and only test it.

Certainly not under ordinary circumstances, but when you get to a code-complete release, usually actual coding slows down or stops while the next release is designed.

Sometimes they wait a week just to be safe. But's it's been tested through and through.

Yes, but only the most foolish departments fail to run the GM through one last regression cycle, just to make sure. That takes time, because a good regression cycle is nothing if not exhaustive.

OS 10.3.8 has over 200 bugs documented. Tiger currently has about 35 (obscure stuff that few will notice). There is ALWAYS bugs. There is no perfect OS.

Of course there are always bugs; this is something every QA department has to accept. However, that doesn't mean there's an excuse to skimp on QA so that they can be minimized.

Printing of 10.4 boxes has been finished, as well as printing the disks. The only thing remaining is to press and ship them.

How are you in a position to know this? It's possible, of course, but that's a fairly risky thing to do; last-minute changes have a way of screwing documentation up. I would hope that Apple would be smarter than this.

As for pathetic latest and greatest. There is actually a word that discribes latest and greatest in the dictionary. It's called technology.

OMG! OMG! OMG!

Actually, it's called 'obsession'. Older technology is technology nonetheless, so there is no point in trying to legitimize the hyperactivity by those means.

analogika · Mar 18, 2005, 07:31 AM

I thought it was "release on April 15, ship in the following weeks"?

Surely, there's still a few testing days left for that plan?