[benb]

It must be sad when your whole life revolves around booze and drugs.

[ryju]

Originally posted by benb:
It must be sad when your whole life revolves around booze and drugs.

/nods

[d4nth3m4n]

Originally posted by benb:
It must be sad when your whole life revolves around booze and drugs.

you obviously did not approach the teenage years properly. hes 16, leave the kid alone.

[MindFad]

20 shooters....

That's like 10 shooters with the exchange rate, right?

[benb]

Originally posted by d4nth3m4n:
you obviously did not approach the teenage years properly. hes 16, leave the kid alone.

He needs to grow up fast then so he can realize that its so stupid. And realize that no one here is impressed by him either. Every other week its "Dude I am going to do shrooms this week" or "How do I smoke this".

And what do you mean by "properly"? Is it normal or laudable to see how many shots you can do before you vomit, pass out, or die? Maybe you need to become a bit wiser as well.

[d4nth3m4n]

Originally posted by benb:
He needs to grow up fast then so he can realize that its so stupid. And realize that no one here is impressed by him either. Every other week its "Dude I am going to do shrooms this week" or "How do I smoke this".

And what do you mean by "properly"? Is it normal or laudable to see how many shots you can do before you vomit, pass out, or die? Maybe you need to become a bit wiser as well.

no, i know my limits, NOW. but i learned them when i was a teenager. live a little, and if you have a problem, there is always the ignore feature.

[ambush]

Originally posted by benb:
He needs to grow up fast then so he can realize that its so stupid. And realize that no one here is impressed by him either. Every other week its "Dude I am going to do shrooms this week" or "How do I smoke this".

And what do you mean by "properly"? Is it normal or laudable to see how many shots you can do before you vomit, pass out, or die? Maybe you need to become a bit wiser as well.

look, for the second time.

I chat with this girl and she tells me she can drink 20 shooters and still, you know, have normal activities.

And I was wondering (I really don't know, but I suspected it would not be possible) if it WAS indeed possible to drink 20 shooters in a row and not DIE.

Because she was being so SERIOUS about it and telling me how I was not resistant to alcohol and how she could take 20 shooters w/o a problem.

ANd if you guys understood French, I'd post the conversation. Basically it goes like this:

Girl: hi
me: hi
me: you coming to x's party friday
girl: yeah
[... random discussion about alcohol overdoses]
me: my shooter limit would be around 8... after that I just can't drink anymore
girl: WTF YOU'RE SO WEAK
me: WTF?
girl: I'm going to drink 20 in a row friday
me: you're gonna die fool
girl: (many times) NO I WON'T ARE U CRAZY I'VE DONE THIS PLENTY OF TIMES
me: with beer shooters or what?
girl: no, vodka
me: uh this is impossible.
girl; IT IS POSSIBLE
me: **** off it's not, don't do this idiot, you don't have anything to prove to me!
girl: I'll do it


So guys, relax, this is the first time I'm actually thinking like a mature person

[SamuraiDL]

i have a belly button.

[CheesePuff]

Originally posted by SamuraiDL:
i have a belly button.

may i pick the fuzzies?

[fireside]

Originally posted by MindFad:
20 shooters....

That's like 10 shooters with the exchange rate, right?

i never really got why going to parties and getting drunk was cool. i mean, i'm a teenager, is that what i should be doing? going to parties, getting drunk, waking up in a pool of my own vomit? is that what is considered fun these days?

[ambush]

Originally posted by fireside:



i never really got why going to parties and getting drunk was cool. i mean, i'm a teenager, is that what i should be doing? going to parties, getting drunk, waking up in a pool of my own vomit? is that what is considered fun these days?

you forgot having sexual relations with unknown girls.

[ryju]

Originally posted by ambush:
you forgot having sexual relations with unknown girls.

I like that idea better than the vomit one.

[Ghoser777]

Assuming the random girls are all *clean*... ehw...

Matt Fahrenbacher

[Oisín]

Originally posted by wataru:
Great idea! All you need to have fun is to crank up the old Victrola and dance the jitterbug all night long!

Seriously, though, go take a history class.

Originally posted by Tomster:
We tried that once in the USA. It was called the eighteenth amendment and was a complete disaster.

Erm... I wasn't being quite serious there... banning alcohol wouldn't do any good, I'm aware of that, and I do know about the 18th amendment (except maybe I didn't know the number)...

I wasn't talking literally, I just think the world would be a more fun place without alcohol altogether (well, drinking alcohol anyway... but what are the chances we'd have figured out how to use alcohol for various useful things and never thought of drinking it?)

But actually, wataru, though I get that you were exaggerating/joking, you still bring up one point that I hear constantly when I tell people that I don't drink alcohol at all (I'm 21 now, and I've never drunk alcohol in my life): "How do you have fun then?". Unfortunately most young people (where I come from anyway) seem to think that having fun = getting loaded. Yeah, 'cause when I go out with my friends and do crazy stuff like them and laugh and talk and the whole shebang, I'm not having fun, because I'm sobre - yeah, that makes sense...

[ryju]

Originally posted by Ghoser777:
Assuming the random girls are all *clean*... ehw...

Matt Fahrenbacher

Well yeah, ofcourse, I don't want any of that crap.

[fireside]

Originally posted by Ghoser777:
Assuming the random girls are all *clean*... ehw...

Matt Fahrenbacher

how can you tell when you're drunk?

[Ghoser777]

Which is why I don't get drunk. I suppose getting drunk with a girl you want to hookup with might be a better idea (if this can be described as a good idea at all) - that way you can decide by random guess if by the outward appearance of your shag target if they have any STDs you could live with before actually getting drunk.

Matt Fahrenbacher

[benb]

Originally posted by ambush:
look, for the second time.

And I was wondering (I really don't know, but I suspected it would not be possible) if it WAS indeed possible to drink 20 shooters in a row and not DIE.

So guys, relax, this is the first time I'm actually thinking like a mature person

Notice:

So a girl comes up and tells me she's going to drink 20 shooters (w/o a big break) while looking at me in the eyes.

I'm like. You're going to die, sorry.

She's like

YOU'RE KIDDING ME RIGHT?

ahh those 15 yr old girls....
Oh well we'll see who was right friday night. She is going to pay for her arrogance

we bet 10 bucks on that.

20 shooters in less than an hour for a 110 lbs woman.
If this is possible, I'll respect her very much. And she might even be able to speak to me after that... that is, if she's not in coma

BTW
20 shooters in 1 hour, for a 110 lbs female = 0.8 BAC (0.5 is assured death, 0.4 is coma+possible death)

So there, I don't think she'll survive

You may be thinking maturely now, but you sure weren't when you started this thread.

[ambush]

Originally posted by benb:
Notice:



You may be thinking maturely now, but you sure weren't when you started this thread.

The thing is, dear benb, that she had told me that she'd do it NO MATTER what I thought.

So like, I can't stop her. She's going to pay the toll if she does it, and yes, the toll in this case is severe brain damage or death. Whatever.

If I see her do it I'll stop her.

But benb, I hope you don't think I want her to die?

Yes she is an arrogant 15 yr old girl that wants to prove that she's resistant to alcohol.

What can I say? I probably can't stop her.

[fireside]

Originally posted by ambush:
What can I say? I probably can't stop her.

tell her parents? don't take her out drinking? call the cops?

[ambush]

Originally posted by fireside:
tell her parents? don't take her out drinking? call the cops?

lol **** off.

I'll be there friday and I'll stop her if I can.

BUt like, I won't call the cops, sorry, and I won't call her parents. She's not like my best friend or anything

[tomdavidson69]

Originally posted by ambush:
lol **** off.

I'll be there friday and I'll stop her if I can.

BUt like, I won't call the cops, sorry, and I won't call her parents. She's not like my best friend or anything

How about let her do a a few shots, drinking is after all good fun, then take her attn away from drinking till she chucks it all back up. I don't get all the high-handed appraoch to drinking, I mean we've all been there (some are still refusing to move on!) ... Best thing to do is, if she is dead set on doing this challenge, is to wait untill she's fairly drunk say after 6-8 shots then move on to something else e.g. cocktails then she'll have a better eve...and you hopefully!!! You know what i mean eh?

If she wants to do 20 shots and you really can't stop her (apart from telling bar'person' not to serve 'em) then she'll chuck after 12 or so, vodka neat won't stay inside, it will want to leave, she'll prob get wasted then spew feel like **** and that'll be it.

Hope the night goes groovy, give us an update of how far she got before it came back up!

[Cipher13]

Originally posted by Xeo:
Ask her if she's willing to jump off a building. Hey, if she survives, she'll be HELLACOOL to all the other teenies, but is it worth the risk?

This is a great example of why teens drink. It's all to impress their friends.

Nice generalisation. Sure, it may be mostly true, but either way... that's sorta ignorant.

Originally posted by Phanguye:
def 1.5 oz.

No. 1 oz. 30 mL.

Originally posted by Ois�n:
I wasn't talking literally, I just think the world would be a more fun place without alcohol altogether (well, drinking alcohol anyway... but what are the chances we'd have figured out how to use alcohol for various useful things and never thought of drinking it?)

But actually, wataru, though I get that you were exaggerating/joking, you still bring up one point that I hear constantly when I tell people that I don't drink alcohol at all (I'm 21 now, and I've never drunk alcohol in my life): "How do you have fun then?". Unfortunately most young people (where I come from anyway) seem to think that having fun = getting loaded. Yeah, 'cause when I go out with my friends and do crazy stuff like them and laugh and talk and the whole shebang, I'm not having fun, because I'm sobre - yeah, that makes sense...

You have no right to an opinion, as you've never drunk before.

You don't know the world would be a "more fun place without alcohol altogether" - you don't know whether it's fun to drink, or be drunk.

Drinking is good. It tastes good, it loosens people up, it's a good social activity. Unfortunately, some people are too stupid to treat alcohol with respect... just like anything.

[ambush]

Originally posted by tomdavidson69:
How about let her do a a few shots, drinking is after all good fun, then take her attn away from drinking till she chucks it all back up. I don't get all the high-handed appraoch to drinking, I mean we've all been there (some are still refusing to move on!) ... Best thing to do is, if she is dead set on doing this challenge, is to wait untill she's fairly drunk say after 6-8 shots then move on to something else e.g. cocktails then she'll have a better eve...and you hopefully!!! You know what i mean eh?

If she wants to do 20 shots and you really can't stop her (apart from telling bar'person' not to serve 'em) then she'll chuck after 12 or so, vodka neat won't stay inside, it will want to leave, she'll prob get wasted then spew feel like **** and that'll be it.

Hope the night goes groovy, give us an update of how far she got before it came back up!

ok I'll update u guys (it's tomorrow night the party)

problem is I'm going with ANOTHER cool chick

we'll see. I always end up in someone's bed anyway


Oh and about Cipher's post ->

[Stradlater]

Originally posted by tomdavidson69:
How about let her do a a few shots, drinking is after all good fun, then take her attn away from drinking till she chucks it all back up. I don't get all the high-handed appraoch to drinking, I mean we've all been there (some are still refusing to move on!) ... Best thing to do is, if she is dead set on doing this challenge, is to wait untill she's fairly drunk say after 6-8 shots then move on to something else e.g. cocktails then she'll have a better eve...and you hopefully!!! You know what i mean eh?

If she wants to do 20 shots and you really can't stop her (apart from telling bar'person' not to serve 'em) then she'll chuck after 12 or so, vodka neat won't stay inside, it will want to leave, she'll prob get wasted then spew feel like **** and that'll be it.

Hope the night goes groovy, give us an update of how far she got before it came back up!

What the hell are you talking about??? Let her take 6-8 shots and then move on to cocktails!? Most girls in college can't take 6-8 shots so why would a smaller 15 year old girl be able to? And then cocktails? Christ.

[tomdavidson69]

Originally posted by Stradlater:
What the hell are you talking about??? Let her take 6-8 shots and then move on to cocktails!? Most girls in college can't take 6-8 shots so why would a smaller 15 year old girl be able to? And then cocktails? Christ.

Haha, maybe you have a point. But if you think about it over the course of a whole eve, get the "crazy teen binge drinking" bit out the way asap so everyone can enjoy the night. The cocktails we get here are so watered down it's almost impossible to get pissed. And anyway, again thinking about the course of a whole eve, it's not that much really.

Oops, just remembered she's 15! Hmmm, slight re-think required. OK, as far as a see it there are 2 choices:

1) Let her do it coz she's gonna do it, she will spew, ruin the night for everyone and most likely not touch vodka etc for a long while.

2) She'll do 2-3 and you can talk her on to something else, a little less potent.

My vote is for scenario 1... hehehe better get a bucket and 911 or whatever dialed in advance... (BTW. I'm not saying it's funny to have his situation, it's just these things happen and there are always kids that go crazy)

[Oisín]

Originally posted by Cipher13:
[B]No. 1 oz. 30 mL.[/b

Depends on where you're from, I guess... where I come from, it's 20 ml usually...

You have no right to an opinion, as you've never drunk before.

You don't know the world would be a "more fun place without alcohol altogether" - you don't know whether it's fun to drink, or be drunk.

Drinking is good. It tastes good, it loosens people up, it's a good social activity. Unfortunately, some people are too stupid to treat alcohol with respect... just like anything.

Okay, let me be a little more accurate - I have drunk some alcohol, just never enough to actually get drunk (although I suppose after 7 drinks in about 1� hours I should feel something, just didn't). Regardless, I always have a right to an opinion - just as you have a right not to care about it.

I personally don't find it at all fun to drink. And whether or not it tastes good is a personal matter - anything but the really sweet kinds of cocktail-drink-thingies I simply am not physically able to drink without throwing it straight back up, it tastes that horrible to me.

The social activity aspect is the part that I don't agree with. It may be true that for some (okay, most) people, it helps them 'loosen up', but that still doesn't mean you can't loosen up without it.

What I meant about 'altogether' is really that from what I see, drinking alcohol has done our species a hell of a lot more bad than it has good! If it had never been 'invented', I think that would just be one less problem to deal with.

[Stradlater]

Originally posted by Ois�n:
Okay, let me be a little more accurate - I have drunk some alcohol, just never enough to actually get drunk (although I suppose after 7 drinks in about 1� hours I should feel something, just didn't). Regardless, I always have a right to an opinion - just as you have a right not to care about it.

I personally don't find it at all fun to drink. And whether or not it tastes good is a personal matter - anything but the really sweet kinds of cocktail-drink-thingies I simply am not physically able to drink without throwing it straight back up, it tastes that horrible to me.

If you don't want to drink, fine, that's your decision; but no, your say in any matters concerning being drunk is nonexistent. Just because you've had alcohol before doesn't change these matters if you haven't been drunk. Your opinions on being drunk are about as valid as someone's opinion on a movie who, in his life, has only briefly seen static on a television set.

So, when you make fatuous statements like "I personally don't find it at all fun to drink," it's like saying "I personally don't find it at all fun to ride roller coasters [although I've never been on one, I've seen some in the distance]."

As far as other things tasting horrible, what things? If you're in college and your friends drink Busch Lite or MGD or other piss, you're not going to be able to stomach it. Same goes for boxed wine. Sure, you can continue to drink that stuff and eventually you'll be able to drink it, but it's so much easier and better to buy quality stuff (I'm not talking really expensive here, $5-10 can give you a nice bottle of wine, $7-8 can give you a nice set of six pints).

Originally posted by Ois�n:
The social activity aspect is the part that I don't agree with. It may be true that for some (okay, most) people, it helps them 'loosen up', but that still doesn't mean you can't loosen up without it.

What I meant about 'altogether' is really that from what I see, drinking alcohol has done our species a hell of a lot more bad than it has good! If it had never been 'invented', I think that would just be one less problem to deal with.

Well, I'm glad your couple decades on earth without ever being drunk is enough to negate the social practices of millions of cultures before you--I'm sorry, but look at Italians and wine, look at Russians and vodka, looks at Germanic cultures and ale. Alcohol has definitely helped people as much as its hurt people (I'm sure there are a ton of instances where it lets people out of their shells of hostility and welcome people); and the people it hurts usually had it coming (usually; I KNOW you can find plenty of exceptions). Oh, and that glass of wine a day will make you live longer than your present course.

Oh yeah, and Nature 'invented' alcohol, you might want to take it up with her. Tell her that you don't think C12H22O11 should create strong enough bonds to exist, but then people would probably try to figure out how to drink alcohols other than ethanol...I guess OH bonds have to go. And so the universe collapses upon itself.

EDIT: So yeah, continue to teetotal, just don't talk to people about alcohol; and if THEY start the conversation with you specifically, just say that it's a decision you made (don't say it's not fun) or make something up that would make them drop it ("my dad's an alcoholic, I don't want to follow the same path; it's hard...etc."). I'm not here to convince you to drink, I'm here to please ask you to butt out of things you have no personal experience with.

[UNTeMac]

What the hell happened to parenting? 15 years old, I did some stupid **** but I was raised well enough to know not to do anything that stupid.

Someone tell Jean the poolboy to go clean the water.

[Oisín]

Originally posted by Stradlater:
So yeah, continue to teetotal, just don't talk to people about alcohol; and if THEY start the conversation with you specifically, just say that it's a decision you made (don't say it's not fun) or make something up that would make them drop it ("my dad's an alcoholic, I don't want to follow the same path; it's hard...etc."). I'm not here to convince you to drink, I'm here to please ask you to butt out of things you have no personal experience with.

No offense, but that's bull. If I have ideas or thoughts or opinions on something I'm perfectly entitled to be a part of a discussion about it, regardless of whether or not I've actually had any personal experience with it. If I want to partake in a discussion about foot-binding throughout Chinese history, or the attitude of the Romans towards peoples of other religions, or the treatment of the native peoples of Central and South America by the Conquistadores, then I have every right to - although I've never had my feet bound, never been a Jew in Ancient Rome, and never been slaughtered by Conquistadores. If I want to partake in a discussion about drug addicts and alcoholics, I have a right to, without ever having been either. Same thing.

[Ghoser777]

Sigh... And I can't have an opinion on abortion because I've never had a baby

Arguments stand on their own merit - attacking the people who make the argument the classic ad hominem fallacy. We're not let to believe Ois�n's argument is true or false based on him being some kind of alcohol conesuir (sp) or drinking expert. He's simply stated his opinion and you take it from there.

I can say (and have): "I don't see why people like going on roller coasters." Now, I know WHY they go on (for the most part - it's fun to them because of the thrill), but in my own thinking, I don't see how that motivates them to actually do it when considering the wait time to get on, the shortness of the ride, the risk involved (being stuck on top of a roller coaster? No thank you.). It's more of a rhetorical question (at least for me).

Also, I would agree that the world probably be a better place if alcohol was never invented (not that it should be banned - I agree, not going to work). I don't know if we'd just get silly and loosen up with something else, but if we could prevent all the deaths and injuries from drunk drivers, alcohol poisoning, alcohol related fights and disputes, etc, I think that would be a Good Thing.�

Yes, this is all my opinion. Yes, I don't see the thrill in being drunk. Does it matter if I have ever been drunk before or not? No.

Flame on.

Matt Fahrenbacher

[ryju]

Well it's Saturday Ambush...what happened?

[dillerX]

Originally posted by ryju:
Well it's Saturday Ambush...what happened?

you're probably asking a wee bit too early in the AM.

[ambush]

Hehe....

Finally the girl got quite drunk *but* not TOO drunk. Anyway, I don't like her that much. She's cool but I thought she would be even more cool. Anyway.

What can I say......... I drank 7 beers... enough to make me drunk a bit. And I ended up at my (girl) friend's house ........... .......... ...............

It was a cool party, except when the mom of one girl who was there came and knocked at the door.

The problem is her daughter was not in the house and we had no idea were she was. Oh well, i can't remember what happened.

There were some hot chicks there.. I might have to ask their msn addresses

Oh yeah and a girl tried to rape me. I was not drunk enough to let her do it, tho.

[G4ME]

Originally posted by ambush:
I might have to ask their msn addresses

HAHAHAH BALLZ

[Stradlater]

Originally posted by Ois�n:
No offense, but that's bull. If I have ideas or thoughts or opinions on something I'm perfectly entitled to be a part of a discussion about it, regardless of whether or not I've actually had any personal experience with it. If I want to partake in a discussion about foot-binding throughout Chinese history, or the attitude of the Romans towards peoples of other religions, or the treatment of the native peoples of Central and South America by the Conquistadores, then I have every right to - although I've never had my feet bound, never been a Jew in Ancient Rome, and never been slaughtered by Conquistadores. If I want to partake in a discussion about drug addicts and alcoholics, I have a right to, without ever having been either. Same thing.

Quite different. You're claiming to not like something you've never experienced; that's where the bull is. As far as those other discussions, those are historical events that you couldn't possibly take part in. Think about your analogy and let's make it more analogous

You talking about being drunk, something you've never been, to people who HAVE been drunk is the same as...

You talking about having your feet bound, something you've never experienced, to people who HAVE had their feet bound
OR you talking about the treatment of native peoples by conquistadors, something you've only read about, to the slaves or the conquistadors themselves!
ETC

Seriously, being drunk isn't history and something we're talking about as unexperienced equals, it's something that many of us have taken part in. So, like a Jew in ancient Rome, we'll have you as an audience if you wish to know about our experience, but don't tell us what our experience is. And don't tell me the analogy is ridiculous; it's your analogy, just made closer to the event at hand.

So, let's now expand your analogy upon adjustment.

You said you wish alcohol had never been 'invented' to a group of people who have been drunk and enjoy the occasional social situation.

That would be like you, still inexperienced in the way the slaves feel, telling slaves that you think manumission should have never been 'invented.'

So, no offense, but you have little argument and little place in this thread.

[Stradlater]

Originally posted by Ghoser777:
Sigh... And I can't have an opinion on abortion because I've never had a baby

Arguments stand on their own merit - attacking the people who make the argument the classic ad hominem fallacy. We're not let to believe Ois�n's argument is true or false based on him being some kind of alcohol conesuir (sp) or drinking expert. He's simply stated his opinion and you take it from there.

Your opinion is overruled by women who HAVE had abortions, though; and you better not tell them "what it's like" if you have any sense. Ad hominem? Umm, there was far more logic in my argument than there is in ad hominem. Ad hominem is like this: "Matt is a child abuser, therefore Matt is wrong [when it comes to the issue of taxation]." Take another class on fallacies. Oh, and it's "connoisseur" for future reference.

Originally posted by Ghoser777:
I can say (and have): "I don't see why people like going on roller coasters." Now, I know WHY they go on (for the most part - it's fun to them because of the thrill), but in my own thinking, I don't see how that motivates them to actually do it when considering the wait time to get on, the shortness of the ride, the risk involved (being stuck on top of a roller coaster? No thank you.). It's more of a rhetorical question (at least for me).

It would be closer to "Even though I've never experienced it, I don't like riding on roller coasters." And then, people who HAVE ridden on roller coasters will probably tell you: "really? oh you should! It's incredible fun, you can't knock something till you try it!" Then you can give them your reasons. They will say, "oh, okay, suit yourself." And the conversation COULD be over, but then you have the nerve to tell these roller coaster-lovers the following: "I wish roller coasters had never been invented!" Wow, you're just being a jerk now.

Originally posted by Ghoser777:
Also, I would agree that the world probably be a better place if alcohol was never invented (not that it should be banned - I agree, not going to work). I don't know if we'd just get silly and loosen up with something else, but if we could prevent all the deaths and injuries from drunk drivers, alcohol poisoning, alcohol related fights and disputes, etc, I think that would be a Good Thing.�

Maybe sex shouldn't have been invented because of the rapes, the abortions, the single-parent issues, child abuse, etc.? A stretch, maybe, but alcohol, too, has both upsides and downsides.

Originally posted by Ghoser777:
Yes, this is all my opinion. Yes, I don't see the thrill in being drunk. Does it matter if I have ever been drunk before or not? No.

Flame on.

Matt Fahrenbacher

But at least you didn't say, "I don't like being drunk," which is closer to what Ois�n was saying. Anyways, as far as you not seeing the thrill; that's fine, I'd recommend you try it and see if it's for you, but that's your decision. Personally, I don't care for being especially drunk. I've experienced it and it was interesting, but the novelty wore off after a few times and it's really not for me. Having one drink (a glass of wine with dinner) and feeling no effects is nice, too. Being a little tipsy can definitely be fun, socially, if you're sharing the moment with the right people.

[Oisín]

You talking about being drunk, something you've never been, to people who HAVE been drunk is the same as...

You talking about having your feet bound, something you've never experienced, to people who HAVE had their feet bound
OR you talking about the treatment of native peoples by conquistadors, something you've only read about, to the slaves or the conquistadors themselves!

Yes, you're right about that. And I have in fact done just that (I mean the foot binding thing, obviously not the Conquistador thing)! And the fact that the old woman (who was terribly hard to understand, by the way) had indeed had her feet bound when she was a young girl did not in any way exclude me from talking to her about what I thought about the practice of foot binding. (Strangely enough, she was most supportive of foot binding, I was the one giving opinions and arguments as to why it has a very negative effect on the lives of both the women whose feet are bound and society as a whole)

Originally posted by Stradlater:
Seriously, being drunk isn't history and something we're talking about as unexperienced equals, it's something that many of us have taken part in. So, like a Jew in ancient Rome, we'll have you as an audience if you wish to know about our experience, but don't tell us what our experience is.

Except I'm not telling you what your experience is, I'm giving my thoughts and opinions on the phenomenon, the situation itself. Since I do realise my analogies were not the best, let's use Matt's, 'cause that is a good one - although I've never had an abortion, I would still feel myself completely entitled to discuss abortion as such with anyone, even someone who has had one. Naturally, I would not discuss or have much opinion on the action or process of actually having an abortion, but the phenomenon, notion even, of abortion would be mine to discuss just as much as hers.

You said you wish alcohol had never been 'invented' to a group of people who have been drunk and enjoy the occasional social situation.

If I said that, I was being a bit unclear (too lazy to go back and find my exact words, I'll take yours for it). I didn't really mean that I wished alcohol had never been 'invented'. I was more like musing upon the thought that as a whole (given the situations of "drunk drivers, alcohol poisoning, alcohol related fights and disputes, etc" that Matt mentioned), the world would have one less issue to deal with if it had never been 'invented' - in my opinion. I do see that there are some positive aspects of alcohol, I just think the negative aspects outnumber them greatly.

That would be like you, still inexperienced in the way the slaves feel, telling slaves that you think manumission should have never been 'invented.'

How on earth did you reach that conclusion??? Are you referring to alcohol as something that 'manumits' [is that a word?] you from the 'slavery' of not being loosened up? In my eyes, although I can't really transfer the analogy properly, I think it would be more like me telling the slaves that slavery should never have been invented [not sure whether or not to put citation marks around this 'invented']...

So, no offense, but you have little argument and little place in this thread.

On the contrary... I already have much more of both arguments and place in this thread than I really intended to have... I really only meant my initial post to be a semi-humorous-semi-sarcastic-death-to-all-alcohol-hahaha-comment... Maybe I should have said something like "Alcohol is the Spawn of the Devil and should be buried in my backyard alongside my old Windows2000"... but then either Devil worshippers or (even worse) Windows2000 worshippers would have been at me, I guess...

[Oisín]

Originally posted by Stradlater:
But at least you didn't say, "I don't like being drunk," which is closer to what Ois�n was saying.

Again, if that was what it sounded (well, looked) like I was saying, I was being inaccurate. For some strange reason, whenever I post to this thread, I suddenly find the English language being a barrier for me, something that's not usually an issue... maybe it has something to do with trying to write something at least semi-serious when you're yawning your jaws off, which I seem to be doing all the time in this thread...

[soul searching]

My friends, I had not intended to discuss this controversial subject at this particular time. However, I want you to know that I do not shun controversy. On the contrary, I will take a stand on any issue at any time, regardless of how fraught with controversy it might be. You have asked me how I feel about whiskey. All right, here is how I feel about whiskey.

If when you say whiskey, you mean the devil's brew, the poison scourge, the bloody monster that defiles innocence, dethrones reason, destroys the home, creates misery and poverty, yea, literally takes the bread from the mouths of little children; if you mean the evil drink that topples the Christian man and woman from the pinnacle of righteous, gracious living into the bottomless pit of degradation and despair and shame and helplessness and hopelessness, then I am certainly against it.

But if, when you say whiskey, you mean the oil of conversation, the philosophic wine, the ale that is consumed when good fellows get together, that puts a song in their hearts and laughter on their lips and the warm glow of contentment in their eyes; if you mean Christmas cheer; if you mean the stimulating drink that puts the spring in the old gentleman's step on a frosty, crispy morning; if you mean the drink which enables a man to magnify his joy and his happiness and to forget, if only for a little while, life's great tragedies and heartaches and sorrows; if you mean that drink the sale of which pours into our treasuries untold millions of dollars which are used to provide tender care for our little crippled children, our blind, our deaf, our pitiful aged and infirm, to build highways and hospitals and schools, then I certainly am for it.

This is my stand, and I will not compromise.

-Noah S. Sweat Jr., 1952

[Stradlater]

Originally posted by Ois�n:
Yes, you're right about that. And I have in fact done just that (I mean the foot binding thing, obviously not the Conquistador thing)! And the fact that the old woman (who was terribly hard to understand, by the way) had indeed had her feet bound when she was a young girl did not in any way exclude me from talking to her about what I thought about the practice of foot binding. (Strangely enough, she was most supportive of foot binding, I was the one giving opinions and arguments as to why it has a very negative effect on the lives of both the women whose feet are bound and society as a whole)

That's not really strange at all; with people living in such a society, it's part of their culture, their history, their heritage, which is why you can tell some of them your opinion, but it's doubtful that you'll change their opinion. Sometimes you can take an objective view when you're outside, but at the same time, it's impossible to consider some angles without experiencing them. I agree with you, that alcohol has downs, but, like a roller coaster, there are plenty of ups, too.

Originally posted by Ois�n:
Except I'm not telling you what your experience is, I'm giving my thoughts and opinions on the phenomenon, the situation itself. Since I do realise my analogies were not the best, let's use Matt's, 'cause that is a good one - although I've never had an abortion, I would still feel myself completely entitled to discuss abortion as such with anyone, even someone who has had one. Naturally, I would not discuss or have much opinion on the action or process of actually having an abortion, but the phenomenon, notion even, of abortion would be mine to discuss just as much as hers.

You were saying that being drunk wasn't fun when you'd never been drunk...so it's kind of like telling people their experience when you hadn't experienced it. You were also telling people that not only do you not like to do what they do, you were telling them that you wish they couldn't do it. As far as Matt's goes, abortion is a touchy subject to begin with, but odds are your opinion, when heard next to the opinion of a girl who DID have an abortion is going to seem rather insignificant. So when you said that you wish alcohol hadn't been 'invented' it would be like saying that you wish abortion hadn't been 'discovered' in the presence of this girl, even though she might be much better off because she was allowed to have one. These analogies don't really completely work, though.

Originally posted by Ois�n:
If I said that, I was being a bit unclear (too lazy to go back and find my exact words, I'll take yours for it). I didn't really mean that I wished alcohol had never been 'invented'. I was more like musing upon the thought that as a whole (given the situations of "drunk drivers, alcohol poisoning, alcohol related fights and disputes, etc" that Matt mentioned), the world would have one less issue to deal with if it had never been 'invented' - in my opinion. I do see that there are some positive aspects of alcohol, I just think the negative aspects outnumber them greatly.

Okay, much better; you did say that, which is why I felt the need to analyze your claims and your authority to make them. If you're retracting that statement now, it changes some things. Again, yes, there are negative outcomes because of alcohol, but there are negative outcomes because of a lot of things. You hear about the drunk drivers, but the majority do not drive drunk. You hear about the college kid and alcohol poisoning, but college kids have fun binging on alcohol every night and don't usually die because of it. You hear about alcohol-related fights and disputes, but plenty of people enjoy drinks with dinner and become FRIENDLIER with intoxication. Alcohol causes problems, but they are few among the millions that consume it regularly.

Originally posted by Ois�n:
How on earth did you reach that conclusion??? Are you referring to alcohol as something that 'manumits' [is that a word?] you from the 'slavery' of not being loosened up? In my eyes, although I can't really transfer the analogy properly, I think it would be more like me telling the slaves that slavery should never have been invented [not sure whether or not to put citation marks around this 'invented']...

It wasn't a very good analogy (but I don't think any analogies are truly great), but think about it this way: manumission is important to slaves and alcohol is important to people that consume it occasionally. There is a difference in intensity here, but the general idea could be seen as similar.

Originally posted by Ois�n:
On the contrary... I already have much more of both arguments and place in this thread than I really intended to have... I really only meant my initial post to be a semi-humorous-semi-sarcastic-death-to-all-alcohol-hahaha-comment... Maybe I should have said something like "Alcohol is the Spawn of the Devil and should be buried in my backyard alongside my old Windows2000"... but then either Devil worshippers or (even worse) Windows2000 worshippers would have been at me, I guess...

That's fair enough, but even with your tongue-in-cheek-initial-argument, I'm just trying to make it clear that alcohol isn't as bad as you seem to have tried to make it out to be.

[Stradlater]

Originally posted by soul searching:

Haha, great quotation

[Stradlater]

Originally posted by Ois�n:
Again, if that was what it sounded (well, looked) like I was saying, I was being inaccurate. For some strange reason, whenever I post to this thread, I suddenly find the English language being a barrier for me, something that's not usually an issue... maybe it has something to do with trying to write something at least semi-serious when you're yawning your jaws off, which I seem to be doing all the time in this thread...

No worries, I respect your clarification. Your handle of the English language is also quite good.

[Oisín]

Originally posted by Stradlater:
As far as Matt's goes, abortion is a touchy subject to begin with, but odds are your opinion, when heard next to the opinion of a girl who DID have an abortion is going to seem rather insignificant.

Oh, no doubt it would! I was just saying that I would still have the right to have the opinion, insignificant or not... (well, since I am generally pro-abortion, I doubt there'd be much of a fight, but still)

Okay, much better; you did say that, which is why I felt the need to analyze your claims and your authority to make them. If you're retracting that statement now, it changes some things.

Not so much retracting, more trying to actually write what I'm thinking... in the very wise words of my father: "Don't listen to what I say, 'cause that's usually bollocks. Listen to what I mean instead, 'cause that actually makes sense sometimes"

Again, yes, there are negative outcomes because of alcohol, but there are negative outcomes because of a lot of things. You hear about the drunk drivers, but the majority do not drive drunk. You hear about the college kid and alcohol poisoning, but college kids have fun binging on alcohol every night and don't usually die because of it. You hear about alcohol-related fights and disputes, but plenty of people enjoy drinks with dinner and become FRIENDLIER with intoxication. Alcohol causes problems, but they are few among the millions that consume it regularly.

Very true... like I said, it's just my opinion that in this case, the minority of negative outcomes more than outweigh the majority of positive outcomes...


Oh, by the way, this is completely off-topic and has nothing to do with anything here really, but... why do you consistently put to spaces after every full stop??? Just wondering...

[Oisín]

Originally posted by Stradlater:
No worries, I respect your clarification. Your handle of the English language is also quite good.

Not in this thread it isn't... no, scratch that, that should be, "Not since I came to China it isn't"... I used to count myself as pretty much fluent in English - not anymore... *hoping English skills will go back to normal after going home*

[Stradlater]

Originally posted by Ois�n:
Oh, no doubt it would! I was just saying that I would still have the right to have the opinion, insignificant or not... (well, since I am generally pro-abortion, I doubt there'd be much of a fight, but still)

Sure you do; I never said you didn't have a right to have the opinion, I merely wrote that your say in the matter was much less compared to those with firsthand experience.

Originally posted by Ois�n:
Not so much retracting, more trying to actually write what I'm thinking... in the very wise words of my father: "Don't listen to what I say, 'cause that's usually bollocks. Listen to what I mean instead, 'cause that actually makes sense sometimes"

Haha, that's fair enough.

Originally posted by Ois�n:
Very true... like I said, it's just my opinion that in this case, the minority of negative outcomes more than outweigh the majority of positive outcomes...

Okay, then we'll agree to disagree

Originally posted by Ois�n:
Oh, by the way, this is completely off-topic and has nothing to do with anything here really, but... why do you consistently put to spaces after every full stop??? Just wondering...

That's how people used to type on typewriters to signify the end of a sentence (things would be confusing with fixed-width type and the use of periods for abbreviations and end-stops, etc.) because printers had a slightly longer space they would use at the end of sentences back then. Anyways, I was taught this way many, many years later, so it's mostly habit and not really necessary. Sometimes, however, it seems to make things easier to read (although not in online matters like these where HTML negates its presence).

[Oisín]

Originally posted by Stradlater:
Okay, then we'll agree to disagree

Disagreement is also a form of agreement... (errrr... or something...)

That's how people used to type on typewriters to signify the end of a sentence (things would be confusing with fixed-width type and the use of periods for abbreviations and end-stops, etc.) because printers had a slightly longer space they would use at the end of sentences back then. Anyways, I was taught this way many, many years later, so it's mostly habit and not really necessary. Sometimes, however, it seems to make things easier to read (although not in online matters like these where HTML negates its presence).

Really? Wow, I never knew that... I guess it could get unclear... I suppose this technique would mostly be used for more or less formal or legal stuff that couldn't bear misunderstandings or misinterpretations? Like, erm, cancelli... (that's the Danish word for that kind of language or texts, but apparently it means "The interlacing osseous plates constituting the elastic porous tissue of certain parts of the bones, esp. in their articular extremities" in English... blllrrrppp!)

[Ghoser777]

]Your opinion is overruled by women who HAVE had abortions, though; and you better not tell them "what it's like" if you have any sense. Ad hominem? Umm, there was far more logic in my argument than there is in ad hominem. Ad hominem is like this: "Matt is a child abuser, therefore Matt is wrong [when it comes to the issue of taxation]." Take another class on fallacies. Oh, and it's "connoisseur" for future reference.

Actually, there's two different things here. I definitely couldn't describe how it was like to get an abortion. I could fancy a guess perhaps, but a woman's first hand experience on it would definitely rule the day. That doesn't mean I can't have an opinion on the issue of abortion. So whether or not I've ever been drunk doesn't mean I can't argue about the metric, purpose, etc of being drunk.

I'll pass on another class on fallacies, had a couple thank you. Your example is much more blatant, but it doesn't mean the original wasn't ad hominem as well.

Thanks for the spelling of "connoisseur."

It would be closer to "Even though I've never experienced it, I don't like riding on roller coasters." And then, people who HAVE ridden on roller coasters will probably tell you: "really? oh you should! It's incredible fun, you can't knock something till you try it!" Then you can give them your reasons. They will say, "oh, okay, suit yourself." And the conversation COULD be over, but then you have the nerve to tell these roller coaster-lovers the following: "I wish roller coasters had never been invented!" Wow, you're just being a jerk now.

If half my friends were killed in a roller coaster accident, would that change the situation? (Okay, half my friends haven't been killed by drinking themselves to death... but there's plenty of people this applies to).

Maybe sex shouldn't have been invented because of the rapes, the abortions, the single-parent issues, child abuse, etc.? A stretch, maybe, but alcohol, too, has both upsides and downsides.

Okay, here's a good point, and I'm more than happy to grant it. Usually it's not the act that's the problem, but the way that the act is abused. I do kind of wish we had skipped nuclear weapons despite the benefits nuclear technology brings us.

But at least you didn't say, "I don't like being drunk," which is closer to what Ois�n was saying. Anyways, as far as you not seeing the thrill; that's fine, I'd recommend you try it and see if it's for you, but that's your decision. Personally, I don't care for being especially drunk. I've experienced it and it was interesting, but the novelty wore off after a few times and it's really not for me. Having one drink (a glass of wine with dinner) and feeling no effects is nice, too. Being a little tipsy can definitely be fun, socially, if you're sharing the moment with the right people.

Pretty good paragraph - I'll let it stand on its own.

Matt Fahrenbacher

[Stradlater]

Originally posted by Ghoser777:
Actually, there's two different things here. I definitely couldn't describe how it was like to get an abortion. I could fancy a guess perhaps, but a woman's first hand experience on it would definitely rule the day. That doesn't mean I can't have an opinion on the issue of abortion. So whether or not I've ever been drunk doesn't mean I can't argue about the metric, purpose, etc of being drunk.

You can have an opinion, but it would still be extremely rude to say something like "I wish abortions had never been discovered" to a woman who's had an abortion and it's dramatically and positively affected her life (would have been a struggling, poor, single parent who would have dropped out of college and never get a great job otherwise). This issue is now moot, though, because Ois�n clarified that he didn't mean to come across as he initially did.

Originally posted by Ghoser777:
I'll pass on another class on fallacies, had a couple thank you. Your example is much more blatant, but it doesn't mean the original wasn't ad hominem as well.

I tried to be specific in order to avoid ad hominem; I never said he had no right to an opinion, I was mostly trying to say that his authority on the matter was significantly less than that of someone who has experienced the effects of alcohol.

Originally posted by Ghoser777:
If half my friends were killed in a roller coaster accident, would that change the situation? (Okay, half my friends haven't been killed by drinking themselves to death... but there's plenty of people this applies to).

That would change things, just as it would change things if there was a history of alcoholism in the family or friends had been killed by drunk drivers. That person has every right to hate alcohol; still, though, it doesn't change the fact that those very unfortunate incidents are few and far between most drunk instances.

Originally posted by Ghoser777:
Okay, here's a good point, and I'm more than happy to grant it. Usually it's not the act that's the problem, but the way that the act is abused. I do kind of wish we had skipped nuclear weapons despite the benefits nuclear technology brings us.

Agreed.