[dencamp]

The Clean - Anthology
Handsome Family - Live @ Schuba's Tavern

[Mark Tungston]

Originally posted by Cipher13:

Dashboard, however, suck. As does anyone that likes them. End of story. Sorry, but Chris is a ****.

care to elaborate?

D/C is a basic male vocal, guitar-based band. What makes them suck more than the other thousands like them?

In terms of the Chris comment � are you speaking of a specific instance or how semi-famous musicians act in general?

just wondering why D/C would draw so much hate... the Strokes i can understand more.

[ryju]

Originally posted by Mark Tungston:
care to elaborate?

D/C is a basic male vocal, guitar-based band. What makes them suck more than the other thousands like them?

In terms of the Chris comment � are you speaking of a specific instance or how semi-famous musicians act in general?

just wondering why D/C would draw so much hate... the Strokes i can understand more.

I can bare D/C however the majority of their songs are about the exact same topic. Which has been played throughout their albums. Just...boring and fruitless now.

[tomdavidson69]

Downset at the mo, relic from angry teenage years! Good fun tho...

That and Paul Simon.... not at the same time tho, that would be wrong.

edit: removed kak typin...

[Sven G]

Here's a "European outsider" point of view, BTW...

I have quite a few favourite singers/musicians; but, from a "deep feelings" point of view, I'd say that I prefer Fabrizio De Andr� - probably almost completely unknown outside Italy, but anyway a great '60s/'70s, etc. troubadour, if one can say so.

Two of his most famous songs (relatively speaking, of course), are, from oldest to newest, and skipping a real amount of excellent stuff (and, sadly, he died some years ago):

- Piero's War;

- Dolcenera (something translatable like "Sweet Black": see the site for the real meaning).

Personally, I really like this "minor mode", both romantic and socially addictive music. Of course, those who weren't alive in the '70s maybe won't understand all this - but, anyway, who knows... maybe there'll be some form of new renaissance sooner or later in the future...?

[paully dub]

Originally posted by Sven G:
Here's a "European outsider" point of view, BTW...

I have quite a few favourite singers/musicians; but, from a "deep feelings" point of view, I'd say that I prefer Fabrizio De Andr� - probably almost completely unknown outside Italy, but anyway a great '60s/'70s...

I love Fabrizio De Andre, along with Rino Gaetano and some of Pino Daniele's older stuff.

But definitely lost on most of this crowd.

[DesignerTerp]

The Sleepy Jackson

[Sven G]

Originally posted by paully dub:
I love Fabrizio De Andre, along with Rino Gaetano and some of Pino Daniele's older stuff.

But definitely lost on most of this crowd.

BTW, the only alive, today, is Pino Daniele: great "Neapolitan" (sp? from Naples, i.e.) music; other rather famous (at least at the European level) Naples musicians are, for example, Edoardo Bennato, Tony Esposito and Tullio De Piscopo - just to name a few...

P.S.: Of course, De Andr� was fiercely - or "sweetly", maybe? - libertarian and anti-militarist, anti-clerical, etc.: values that aren't really so "valued" in today's context, maybe...

[paully dub]

Originally posted by Sven G:


BTW, the only alive, today, is Pino Daniele: great "Neapolitan" (sp? from Naples, i.e.) music; other rather famous (at least at the European level) Naples musicians are, for example, Edoardo Bennato, Tony Esposito and Tullio De Piscopo - just to name a few...

I think Pino's recent stuff is pretty aweful - way overproduced. In fact most current Italian music I've heard is pretty week. Though I don't hear much, usually it's that Laura Pausini stuff...blah.

But man, Italy had some good stuff way back when...f*ck I even love Loredana Berte, Lucio Battisti, Vasco Rossi...even some of Jovanotti's stuff ain't bad...

</useless Euro-post>

[Andrew 8808]

I'm stuck on Janet's new album.

[Cipher13]

Originally posted by Mark Tungston:
care to elaborate?

D/C is a basic male vocal, guitar-based band. What makes them suck more than the other thousands like them?

In terms of the Chris comment � are you speaking of a specific instance or how semi-famous musicians act in general?

just wondering why D/C would draw so much hate... the Strokes i can understand more.

I know his music... I have to put up with it too (a lot of my friends like it - to them, I say the exact same things).

It's cheap, acoustic ********. Simple (not that simple is always bad), repetitive music; "look at me, I can play 3 chords!". Every song sounds identical. Ugh, the lyrics... thats the worst bit. What the hell is he thinking? We don't care about all of his ex-girlfriends that dumped him! We've heard it a thousand times! EVERY SONG is like that.

Not to mention, the topic and repetition aside, he does it so poorly! "Your hair is everywhere..." - wtf?

Man, Dashboard are just ****ing pathetic.

[scottiB]

Herb Alpert and the Tijuana Brass

[Sherwin]

Just lately I've been listening to a lot of Scorpions, Rammstein, Accept and Vanessa Paradis.

Now... If only I could find a German metal band with a cute French singer...

[DanMacMan]

Grits - RZA

I'm not that big of a hip hop fan, but this tune has caught my ears.

[milkcrate]

Wilco - A Ghost Is Born

The effort to install nicotine on my Powerbook has been rewarded.

[Ghoser777]

Numb - Linkin Park as of right now. I seem to go back and forth. Sometimes it's Evanescence, sometimes Will Smith, sometimes Weird Al, etc.

Matt Fahrenbacher

[applepunk83]

Yellowcard, Rufio

[wataru]

I'm all over the jazz lately:
Miles Davis
The Bad Plus
Joshua Redman
Sun Ra
Takashi Matsunaga
Yaya3

[DarwinX]

Story Of The Year. I really enjoy their album a great deal, from start to finish. I got to see them live while they were on tour with Linkin Park *gasp* Hoobastank and P.O.D. I hope they have continued success. (The concert was great by the way, minus P.O.D they let me down for some reason, I still haven't been able to put my finger on it.)

I also second applepunk's motion on Yellowcard

[MindFad]

I'm still enjoying Incubus's new album, "A Crow Left of the Murder."

Shiner, Sunny Day, Radiohead, Muse, and Far still get some playtime in.

I also recently discovered the MiniBosses (they play old NES game music), and have been listening to their MegaMan 2 covers compilation for nostalgic value.

[coolmacdude]

Originally posted by applepunk83:
Yellowcard

Going to see them with Something Corporate on the 8th.

[Chemmy]

I've been listening to The Decemberists, and Orchid.

Also:

Originally posted by Cipher13:
Dashboard, however, suck. As does anyone that likes them. End of story. Sorry, but Chris is a ****.

Originally posted by coolmacdude:
Going to see them with Something Corporate on the 8th.

Oh god why? Do you guys honestly enjoy pop-punk?

[Cipher13]

Originally posted by Chemmy:
I've been listening to The Decemberists, and Orchid.

Also:





Oh god why? Do you guys honestly enjoy pop-punk?

(Just double-checking that line isn't referring to me...?)

[mitchell_pgh]

YOU ALL DON'T HAVE A CLUE AS TO WHAT GOOD MUSIC IS!!!!!

[Chemmy]

Originally posted by Cipher13:
(Just double-checking that line isn't referring to me...?)

It most certainly is. Why don't you go back to hugging your Dashboard Confessional teddy bear and telling people how emo you are?

[Mr. Blur]

lately i've been kinda stuck on Azure Ray , Trespassers William and Jennifer Terran's new live cd.

[Cipher13]

Originally posted by Chemmy:
It most certainly is. Why don't you go back to hugging your Dashboard Confessional teddy bear and telling people how emo you are?

Yeah, I'm not a big fan of sarcasm when it comes to discussing my musical tastes, so while I should probably take that as complete sarcasm, as suggested by the wink, instead, I'm gonna take it as a serious comment, with the wink meaning 'no offense intended'.

So, to clarify: I listen to metal. Dashboard Confessional is an abomination. The epitome of everything "music" isn't, or shouldn't be.

[coolmacdude]

Originally posted by Chemmy:
Oh god why? Do you guys honestly enjoy pop-punk?

Yellowcard does not specifically represent "pop/punk."

They really don't specifically fit into any genre.

They sound very different from a lot of punk bands, sort of a cross between emo and punk.

They have a violin player which is unusual for similar bands.

Their lyrics have a lot more depth and sophistication.

In general, they are one of the more unique bands in the business.

[Cipher13]

Originally posted by coolmacdude:
Yellowcard does not specifically represent "pop/punk."

They really don't specifically fit into any genre.

They sound very different from a lot of punk bands, sort of a cross between emo and punk.

They have a violin player which is unusual for similar bands.

Their lyrics have a lot more depth and sophistication.

In general, they are one of the more unique bands in the business.

I've had to hear Yellowcard over and over (including an extract from the concert at the Annandale when someone there decided to call me and make me listen to a dedication), and they are the epitome of pop-punk.

They're not a cross between emo and punk, because "emo" is something you've never even listened to. Firstly, it's not a genre. All music is "emotional". Secondly, if it was a genre, it wouldn't refer to the ******** songs you think it would.

Yellowcard are listenable, when compared to most pop-punk - but that doesn't mean they're that good.

Listen to some real music. Please. I'll hook you up with some great stuff. Angra, Nightwish, Mozart... you want the best of everything? That's what they are.

[coolmacdude]

Originally posted by Cipher13:
Firstly, it's not a genre.

Not formally. But some groups that defy traditional classification are simply referred to as emo. Besides what is a "genre" anyway? It's something somebody decided described a particular style of music. If I think just "emo" best describes some kind of music, who are you to say otherwise?

Originally posted by Cipher13:
All music is "emotional".

That's BS. I could name many groups that totally lack emotion in their music. It's as stale as chalkboard scratching.

Originally posted by Cipher13:
Secondly, if it was a genre, it wouldn't refer to the ******** songs you think it would.

Again, what genre describes what music is a subjective thing.

Originally posted by Cipher13:
Yellowcard are listenable, when compared to most pop-punk - but that doesn't mean they're that good.

In your opinion.

Originally posted by Cipher13:
Listen to some real music. Please. I'll hook you up with some great stuff. Angra, Nightwish, Mozart... you want the best of everything? That's what they are.

I listen to all kinds of music, classical, jazz, pop, metal, many others. Just because I like some types you don't does not mean I tune out everything else. Everyone has a different taste in music. There is no "bad" or "good" music. Only bad or good "for you" the listener.

[Cipher13]

Originally posted by coolmacdude:
Not formally. But some groups that defy traditional classification are simply referred to as emo. Besides what is a "genre" anyway? It's something somebody decided described a particular style of music. If I think just "emo" best describes some kind of music, who are you to say otherwise?

There are key attributes, characteristics, that allow a band to be placed in one or more genres. The problem with "emo", is that almost every piece of music is emotional to an extent. Voice, lyrics, musical style. Define prog rock - easy. Define power metal - easy. Define rockabilly - easy. Maybe not on paper, but in ones mind.

What you really should be calling it is "pussy-ass pop-punk", the key characteristic being the topic of long-lost ex-girlfriends, lost loves of the singers life, a max of three chords used, and a whiney pre-pubescent voice.

And surely, that's a valid genre. Unfortunately, pop-punk pretty much covers that, musically, the only difference being the lyrics. Pop-punk lyrics are usually totally inane, whereas "emo" lyrics are inane wannabe-love-ballads.

Originally posted by coolmacdude:
That's BS. I could name many groups that totally lack emotion in their music. It's as stale as chalkboard scratching.

Nine In Nails is emotional. Powderfinger are emotional. Vivaldi, Mozart, Rob Zombie, and Sinead O'Connor are emotional.

Go for it. Name many groups who totally lack emotion in their music. I'm sure you can get a few - but remember what I said above; a majority of music is emotional, therefore nullifying your point entirely. A genre defines a minority, a niche. Not a majority.

Originally posted by coolmacdude:
Again, what genre describes what music is a subjective thing.

Partially. Symphony X is definitely metal. Is it power metal? Is it speed/thrash? That's where arguments crop up. I say powermetal, because (insert reasons here). Others may say thrash, because of the scaling/chord progressions, and similarities to the pantera-style music. Both are valid points. Doesn't mean it isn't metal, though.

Originally posted by coolmacdude:
In your opinion.

Sure. In my opinion, gravity is real. Just becase that's my opinion, doesn't mean I'm wrong.

[coolmacdude]

Originally posted by Cipher13:
Sure. In my opinion, gravity is real. Just becase that's my opinion, doesn't mean I'm wrong.

This is where your logical flaw is.

You are attempting to assign a truth condition to a value judgment.

The existence of gravity is a documented scientific fact.

What music is "good" or "bad" is a value judgment. It has no truth value.

Another way to look at it would be that gravity affects all people the same way. There is no variation. Music affects people differently. That's why some people like certain styles, other people like others.

[Cipher13]

Originally posted by coolmacdude:
This is where your logical flaw is.

You are attempting to assign a truth condition to a value judgment.

The existence of gravity is a documented scientific fact.

What music is "good" or "bad" is a value judgment. It has no truth value.

Another way to look at it would be that gravity affects all people the same way. There is no variation. Music affects people differently. That's why some people like certain styles, other people like others.

Sure, go ahead and ignore the rest of my post, like where I took you up on your offer to post a list of music completely lacking emotion.

No, it's not a logical flaw, because it's still an opinion. It doesn't need scientific backing, as all the Jesus-freaks will surely attest to. An opinion needs no such thing. Perhaps I chose a poor example, but it still served it's purpose, with you either A) missed, or B) decided to ignore.

Music can indeed be assigned genre's.

Nobody would argue that Britney Spears is metal.

[ShortcutToMoncton]

Originally posted by Cipher13:
...Rob Zombie...are emotional.

Hahaha....Rob Zombie?! Ew.

Good call on the Decemberists, whoever that was. I went through a Her Majesty phase last week. Total coolness!

Right now, I've got my own playlist on the go � a combination of Tool, Nirvana, Soundgarden, Kyuss and Alice in Chains. And maybe a little Monster Magnet too, although I'm not an album fan of theirs. You can't really go wrong, I'm afraid. Unless you're in the apartment next door, of course.



greg

[GRAFF]

Going througha retro phase at the moment. Can't get enough of Ella singing the Harold Arlen songbook. That voice! Those arrangements! I could listen to her "Blues in the Night" forever. Have a listen !

[SubGeniux]

outkast, great stuff.

[Chemmy]

Originally posted by coolmacdude:
Yellowcard does not specifically represent "pop/punk."

They really don't specifically fit into any genre.

They sound very different from a lot of punk bands, sort of a cross between emo and punk.

Yellowcard is a straight up example of pop-punk, and you've probably never listened to a band that played emo. Emo is one of the most misused terms around, mainly by pop-punk bands/fans looking for legitimacy.

Originally posted by Cipher13:
They're not a cross between emo and punk, because "emo" is something you've never even listened to. Firstly, it's not a genre. All music is "emotional". Secondly, if it was a genre, it wouldn't refer to the ******** songs you think it would.

Emo started in the 80s in Washington DC. It grew out of hardcore bands, especially Minor Threat and Rites Of Spring who later combined for the most part into Fugazi. Emo was a subset of hardcore until a few bands (Braid, The Promise Ring) started losing the hardcore sound for a lighter poppier sound.

Now emo as a genre spanned from hardcore to indie pop-rock, and pop punk, (which has always been around, and has always been the subject of derision from the punk crowd) decided to start masquerading under the guise of this nebulous genre emo. Thank Vagrant Records (Dashboard Confessional, Saves The Day, The Get Up Kids) for that.

Bands that are emo:
Saetia
Fugazi
Sunny Day Real Estate
Jawbreaker

ps. Cipher, I'm not attacking you, you just make solid points that are good starting points.

Originally posted by coolmacdude:
Not formally. But some groups that defy traditional classification are simply referred to as emo. Besides what is a "genre" anyway? It's something somebody decided described a particular style of music. If I think just "emo" best describes some kind of music, who are you to say otherwise?

Emo is a very real and legitimate genre, and it's not a trashcan for "bands that defy traditional classification".

You listen to pop-punk, and your refusal to just say that proves my point that pop-punk bands and fans look to hide their music under the guise of another genre in order to seem more legitimate.

[voyageur]

Originally posted by GRAFF:
Going througha retro phase at the moment. Can't get enough of Ella singing the Harold Arlen songbook. That voice! Those arrangements! I could listen to her "Blues in the Night" forever. Have a listen !

I agree--Blues in the Night--good stuff! Her rendition of Stormy Weather is beautiful too.

[MindFad]

I have discovered the world of Frank Zappa, and it is good.

[coolmacdude]

Originally posted by Chemmy:
you've probably never listened to a band that played emo
...
Bands that are emo:
Saetia
Fugazi
Sunny Day Real Estate
Jawbreaker

I have listened to all those, and many more.

Originally posted by Chemmy:
Emo is a very real and legitimate genre

Yes but, as evidenced by Cipher, there is often strong disagreement about what bands are "emo" or whether they should be considered something else.

Originally posted by Chemmy:
You listen to pop-punk, and your refusal to just say that proves my point that pop-punk bands and fans look to hide their music under the guise of another genre in order to seem more legitimate.

I never refused to say anything. Of course I listen to pop/punk. Furthermore, I never said Yellowcard wasn't pop/punk. I just said I considered them rather different from most other similar bands. I have no need to hide behind anything. That's just silly.

[Earth Mk. II]

Originally posted by coolmacdude:
What music is "good" or "bad" is a value judgment. It has no truth value.

No, not really... to be fair to Cipher, critically listening to music is completely different from having a preference for one style or another. In other words, what is good is different from what is liked.

The most obvious criterion is wether a musical piece is well executed or not. There shouldn't be any stray notes in a performance or recording - or notes that don't add to the music. If the artist can't play his instrument, you'll have a hard time convincing anyone they're good at what they do.

Does the piece follow a regular tempo? What techniques are used? Does the use of those techniques actually add to the music?

Yes, some of these are aesthetic questions, however that does not imply that their answers are false or that their answers do not support the critical study of music.

There is a short essay here that briefly (and incompletely) discusses this topic. There are much more complete introductions and primers to music theory, of course, and I'm certain these can be found in your local library, or (if you have access) in a local university's music department.

For the record, I generally don't consider most pop music to be good - especially punk and it's derivatives (grant me the more generalized usage of the term "pop"). For example, The Ramones are an aesthetically horrible band. That said, I love punk music... and The Ramones.

[Chemmy]

Originally posted by coolmacdude:
I have listened to all those, and many more.

Probably not, given your taste for pop punk. Sunny Day Real Estate, maybe, Saetia, no chance.

Yes but, as evidenced by Cipher, there is often strong disagreement about what bands are "emo" or whether they should be considered something else.

There are strong disagreements between people that don't know what emo is. If I called Outkast "Norwegian Death Metal", the argument "There's often strong disagreement over exactly what Norwegian Death Metal is" doesn't make my original statement any less stupid.

Furthermore, I never said Yellowcard wasn't pop/punk. I just said I considered them rather different from most other similar bands. I have no need to hide behind anything. That's just silly.

Sorry, I must have misinterpreted this statement: "Yellowcard does not specifically represent "pop/punk."

They really don't specifically fit into any genre."

Which is still incorrect. Yellowcard is a clear example of pop-punk, whether you want to call it that or not.

Also, their using a violin doesn't set them apart from anything. Thursday played violin on their first album Waiting, almost four years ago. Cursive added Greta Cohn and her cello to their album The Ugly Organ. The Plot To Blow Up The Eiffel Tower is hardcore/screamo with a clarinet and a saxophone. Jud Jud play grindcore, chug hardcore and lots of other genres with no instruments at all. Instruments don't define a genre.

[coolmacdude]

Originally posted by Earth Mk. II:
In other words, what is good is different from what is liked.

I disagree. "Good" is an overused word that means different things to different people. For some it might be used just to say a piece of music is liked. You used it in the context of a stylistic analysis. But your criteria for judging it as good might be totally different from someone else's.

Originally posted by Earth Mk. II:
The most obvious criterion is wether a musical piece is well executed or not. There shouldn't be any stray notes in a performance or recording - or notes that don't add to the music. If the artist can't play his instrument, you'll have a hard time convincing anyone they're good at what they do.

Does the piece follow a regular tempo? What techniques are used? Does the use of those techniques actually add to the music?

So those are your criteria. That's fine, but it isn't the only set out there. I agree with most of them and I think most other people would as well, but that still doesn't mean they are the only judge of "good."

As an example, most of John Cage's work has none of those qualities. So, I would consider it really "bad" music. Hell, I probably wouldn't even consider it music at all. But I know people who love it and consider it "good music."

Originally posted by Earth Mk. II:
Yes, some of these are aesthetic questions, however that does not imply that their answers are false or that their answers do not support the critical study of music.

Sure analytical questions like that can be true of false. but that doesn't assign a truth value to the "goodness" or "badness" of the music. That remains a personal opinion.

[coolmacdude]

Originally posted by Chemmy:
Sorry, I must have misinterpreted this statement: "Yellowcard does not specifically represent "pop/punk."

They really don't specifically fit into any genre."

Which is still incorrect.

You're still not understanding this. There is not "correctness" or "incorrectness" to musical classification by genre.

A genre is an arbitrary label someone came up with that he believed best described a subset of music. There are people who can agree or disagree with decisions made on that basis.

Classification just ends up being what the majority agree a piece of music is most similar to. That doesn't mean it has a truth value.

Music is an incredibly complex thing. It affects all people differently and everyone has their own ideas about what kind and who's music should be associated together.

[Chemmy]

Originally posted by coolmacdude:
Classification just ends up being what the majority agree a piece of music is most similar to. That doesn't mean it has a truth value.

Fine then. From now on we can all agree Yellowcard is the only band in a genre we'll all agree to call "Sissy High School Punk".

Also, the majority would agree Yellowcard is pop-punk, including AMG.

[coolmacdude]

Originally posted by Chemmy:
Fine then. From now on we can all agree Yellowcard is the only band in a genre we'll all agree to call "Sissy High School Punk".

Once more, all are never going to agree on anything related to music. If you want to call it that, then that's certainly your prerogative.

[Chemmy]

Originally posted by coolmacdude:
Once more, all are never going to agree on anything related to music. If you want to call it that, then that's certainly your prerogative.

I've decided on some other possible genre names for Yellowcard:

• Anti-parent Mall Pop
• Angstcore
• Oxymoronic Anti-Conformity Pre-teen Pop
• Teeno (Think emo, screamo...)

[Fonzie]

hmm. what music?? Let's see. Anything hardcore techno eg Gabber. Sometimes a bit of nostalgic music like music from N-Joi or Holy Noise. Even N.E.R.D has snuck it's way into my iTunes playlist. Dunno how that happened :S

[Jaey]

I haven't been following this thread, but I have to mention both Nine Inch Nails and Marilyn Manson.

[Cipher13]

Originally posted by coolmacdude:
Yes but, as evidenced by Cipher, there is often strong disagreement about what bands are "emo" or whether they should be considered something else.

No. I said I don't like the term "emo" for a genre.

That said, if I were to mention "emo" bands, straight up I'd be thinking Fugazi and Minor Threat. Fugazi, I like - they're okay. Minor Threat, I hate. All depends.

Still, I'd rather call that genre something else.

Originally posted by coolmacdude:
You're still not understanding this. There is not "correctness" or "incorrectness" to musical classification by genre.

A genre is an arbitrary label someone came up with that he believed best described a subset of music. There are people who can agree or disagree with decisions made on that basis.

Classification just ends up being what the majority agree a piece of music is most similar to. That doesn't mean it has a truth value.

Music is an incredibly complex thing. It affects all people differently and everyone has their own ideas about what kind and who's music should be associated together.

Yes, there is a "correctness". No matter who you are, if you think Britney Spears is metal, you're an idiot. Or do you disagree?

Stop trying to defend yourself, when you know you're wrong. You're only digging the hole you're in deeper.

Originally posted by Chemmy:
Fine then. From now on we can all agree Yellowcard is the only band in a genre we'll all agree to call "Sissy High School Punk".

Also, the majority would agree Yellowcard is pop-punk, including AMG.

Originally posted by Chemmy:
I've decided on some other possible genre names for Yellowcard:

• Anti-parent Mall Pop
• Angstcore
• Oxymoronic Anti-Conformity Pre-teen Pop
• Teeno (Think emo, screamo...)

Love Angstcore