[matttichenor]

After using OSX for a few months now I have found on a whole it is an extremely powerful, fun Operating System. That said I feel that alot of the stuff from OS9 that really made it a simple yet powerful interface is missing from OSX, ie. the Apple Menu.

One thing I have noticed is that the OSX system is alot like Windows 98 without the Start Menu. A single window Finder / Explorer with a task bar at the bottom of the screen. I realize that the new Finder can be set to open multiple windows but they are never in the same place I left them, and the view options are always changing on me. Very frustrating. After reading a
few articles / reviews I thought the best thing to do would be to sketch out some ideas.

Most importantly, I wanted to create a new Finder window that bridged the gap between the OS9 Finder and the new Finder in OSX, which I find somewhat
convoluted and hard to navigate. I feel my approach incorporates the advantages of both system's Finders. From there, I sketched up a new System Preferences window which I felt was a more effective use of space. The third sketch is a much needed, unique window for the Trash.

One thing I started thinking about while doing these sketches was the possibility of combining the Finder, System Preferences and Sherlock into one powerful Program. Although I love Sherlock, I find I rarely use it as it is a completely separate program. The Finder should have some way of searching the entire system.

I realize Apple is probably not looking for complete rewrites of the OS right now, but I feel that I am most likely not the only user having trouble with the new Finder system.


Here are the ideas I whipped up using the Sketch Program built into OSX.

These are links to the sketches I did. Please check them out.
http://mypage.direct.ca/n/nticheno/finder.jpg
http://mypage.direct.ca/n/nticheno/systempref.jpg
http://mypage.direct.ca/n/nticheno/trash.jpg

Please let me know what you think and if you have any other suggestions.

Thanks for your consideration,
Matthew Tichenor
[email protected]

[TimmyDee51]

Good ideas, Matt. There are just a few things, though: The pull-down menu in the title bar has been suggested before and the convention holds that you don't want to have anything that will interfere with dragging the window in the title bar. The option-click that the current Mac OS has is OK, because you have to conciously activate it. Maybe they can bring that back.

The Sherlock button is a neat idea, but I think it adds to many widgets to the "basic" window. The window frame should be for window functions. Maybe Sherlock should be included in the shortcut bar, instead. It would more logically fit there. Well, that's just my thoughts. Make sure you forward them on to Apple.

[Cipher13]

I don't think the OSX Finder will be anywhere near as good as OS9's.
It has strayed too far from the classic MacOS, and I still detest the fact that it carries the name "Mac OS". I know why it does, and the difficulties that would ensue if it were changed, but thats not the point.
What the X Finder needs is spring loaded folders (for that reason alone I will not use OSX), pop up windows, the process menu and the control strip.
They are absolute musts.
Other things are trash on desktop, Apple Menu and f-keys to launch apps (does it already do that? Haven't tried).
Also, TimmyDee, its the Command key that drops down the menu in the Classic Finder, not option.

Cipher13

[ShortcutToMoncton]

Trash on Desktop:

I won't repeat the old tired argument of Dock = Trash On Demand Anytime blah blah blah. However, I definitely wouldn't consider it a "must-have" as you seem to say here, Cipher13. Sure, it'd be a good option for those who want it, but if it stays in the Dock - big deal. On the scale of important changes in OS X, I rate that as niggling.....

greg

------------------
Though the day's been
really long
I still feel I'm close to
nowhere....

Since this is the first time Apple has released a public beta for an OS, I'm willing to cut them a little more slack than most of the people posting here. You all seem to be missing the amazing job Apple has done with the underpinnings of the OS. The GUI stuff will follow, I'm sure.

[zerologic]

MY GOD GET OVER IT! I am so tired of hearing the complaints about this.


The Apple Menu and process menu can be downloaded. It's called Classic Menu and can be found RIGHT HERE: http://www.versiontracker.com/redir....sicmenu.tar.gz

As far as spring loaded folders, I agree that they should be (and probably will be) brought back. However, I can survive without them and find that a pretty shallow reason not to use X. You'll also never hear me complain about it.


This is a beta version of the OS. However, the Apple Menu, Control Strip and process menu will not come back. Get over it!

------------------
Live in Dallas? Need a
Mac? Come see us: http://www.zerologic.com/

[matttichenor]

TimmyDee writes:
"The Sherlock button is a neat idea, but I think it adds to many widgets to the "basic" window... Sherlock should be included in the shortcut bar"

I did include Sherlock in the shortcut bar, but I also felt that the Mac finder has always needed a very quick way of searching the entire system from within the finder, that is why I also included the widget for Sherlock and a widget for 'Inspector / Information"


Cipher13 writes:
"What the X Finder needs is spring loaded folders, pop up windows, the process menu and the control strip."

Agreed, Spring Loaded Folders and Pop Up Windows are definitely needed, although I believe that the System Preferences panel is an excellent replacement for the control strip. I think Apple wanted to hide the 'controls' in order to simplify the Desktop. I don't mind that, but if they do, the System Preferences Panel has to be that much better and more efficient. As for the Trash on the Desktop, I feel that if you set the Dock To Auto Hide, then the icon for the Trash should instantly appear on the desktop.

I am not sure what you are referring to as the Process menu. Is this another name for the Application menu?

I was also thinking that Apple Should incorporate their excellent Tabbed window system into more of their Apps and into OSX. It is such an efficient use of space. I used them a lot in my System Preferences sketch.
http://mypage.direct.ca/n/nticheno/systempref.jpg

I also think they could come up with a new view in the finder that uses Tabs. Then the user could pick Icons, Lists, Column or Tab views. Could be useful.

The user could customize each folder to come up in its own Finder window that has its View setup to perfectly display the files within that particular folder. OS 9 has this function, why not in OSX. I feel that this point is extremely important.


Eray Writes:
"You all seem to be missing the amazing job Apple has done with the underpinnings of the OS. The GUI stuff will follow"

Indeed the best part of OSX is the underlying mechanics, but what Apple has asked for is feedback. Knowing the company's history and quest for the simplest computer, why are they stepping backwards with the GUI. We are simply offering the feedback they need to make it the best OS it can possibly be.


Zerologic Writes:
"MY GOD GET OVER IT! I am so tired of hearing the complaints about this. The Apple Menu and process menu can be downloaded.
"This is a beta version of the OS. However, the Apple Menu, Control Strip and process menu will not come back. Get over it!"

I personally do not want to have to download portions of the Operating system which I feel are vital in creating a great UI, especially if they are from Third party programmers. The whole point is that these things are not new ideas that some people want willy nilly, these are aspects of the previous OS that we feel are extremely helpful. To suggest that one should get over it is like suggesting that Apple's request for feedback is unwanted.

It makes complete sense to me for users to want to keep what is good and change what is bad, not just accept what is new.

Let me know what you think,

Matt

[Millennium]

Oh, geez; the old "Bring Back OS9" bit.

Apple Menu: Look, it ain't coming back. All Apple has to do is make the Favorites menu hierarchical, and you have back the only piece of the Apple Menu's functionality that isn't replicated elsewhere.

Control Strip: Obsoleted by the Dock. People here don't seem to grasp the idea of Docklets. These things can do a lot more than CSM's ever could. We already have proof that they're possible (witness Clock and CPUMonitor).

Pop-up Windows: Agreed, though Apple needs to make them stick to the side of the screen instead of the bottom. Of course, even if this isn't fixed, we already have at least one third-party app that implements this better than Apple ever did.

Process Menu: It's called the Dock. Every last scrap of the Process Menu's functionality is either in the Dock, or (in the case of hiding/showing applications) in the Application Menu.

Spring-Loaded Folders: I think we'll see this back, and even if we don't this is another one I think we'll see come from a third party. But you won't use OSX for this reason alone? That's a bit of an overreaction. No, scratch that; it's a major overreaction. I like spring-loaded folders on occasion, but they also have some major interface problems of their own.

Trash on the Desktop: It's right there. But the Dock really is a better place, when you consider that it's often used as an interface widget in many apps (like IE, where you can drag bookmarks to the Trash to delete them). Better for it to always be accessible.

Sherlock/Prefs-in-Finder-window: Dear God, I hope you're joking. The Finder is a file manager, not a search tool or system configurator. I would have thought Win98 would have taught people about what awful interface The App That Does Everything (ie Explorer) is. OSX's app is, as it is now, the best possible of all worlds, merging the simplicity of the System 6 Control Panel with the expandability and functionality of System 7/OS8/9's Control Panels folder.

And finally, what is this great fear of third-party stuff? That's what it's meant for. Apple cannot reasonably be expected to make The App That Does Everything, and it can't afford to mindlessly shovel on things that only small percentages of the users actualy make use of. That is what third parties are there for: to scratch itches.

[qnc]

for the last time if you don't like it don't use it or designit yourself but don't take up space with silly I want to go back to the past arguments

Finder has to be that way due to unix heiracy

dock is more georous than apple menu and control pannel put together

mac osX is mac and deal with it

stop whinning and start creating

[jblakeh1]

And finally, what is this great fear of third-party stuff? That's what it's meant for. Apple cannot reasonably be expected to make The App That Does Everything, and it can't afford to mindlessly shovel on things that only small percentages of the users actualy make use of. That is what third parties are there for: to scratch itches.

amen.

People fail to realize how much of Mac OS 9 used to be shareware.

Expecting Apple to implement every last feature is foolish. This kind of thinking will only lead to disappointment.

[jblakeh1]

What the X Finder needs is spring loaded folders (for that reason alone I will not use OSX)

I can't understand why anyone would give up protected memory, real virtual memory, and all the other OS features of OS X because of one insignificant UI feature. Yes, it was a great feature, but are you using the Finder as a productivity app? If you are, I want your job. I have to use apps like Photoshop and Illustrator.

You'd rather have springloaded folders, and Photoshop running out of memory?

You'd rather have springloaded folders, and MS Word bringing down your whole system every time it crashes?

You'd rather have springloaded folders, and less than adequate Java support?

Is it really that difficult to double-click the freakin' folder, until some implementation of springloaded folders is released?

[This message has been edited by jblakeh1 (edited 11-13-2000).]

[matttichenor]

I am afraid I don't understand why so many readers have such a problem with users who want to make MacOSX great. I think the point that we are trying to make is that a lot of the things that we really liked about OS 9 are missing, and there is no reason why they should be. Some things have been replaced by better implementations of the same idea and that is great, but others have either been ignored or changed for the worst.

Your arguments are that another company will make them or they will eventually show up. I don't understand that. Why not just implement the stinking things in the first place and be done with it.

I know for a fact that OSX's Finder system is not as good as the old system. Now that might be a preference thing but I truly think the new system isn't as well setup. Furthermore, a lot of the people I know who have tried OSX tend to agree. Almost all of the reviews I have read also suggest the same thing, a Finder system that is half Windows 98 and half OS9, which doesn't really work.

You suggest I should "just get over it", I don't think that is a very good solution. Furthermore, you belittle our suggestions as nit picky stuff that 'only a handful of users actually make use of'. Your wrong. Plain and simple.

What is even more frustrating about this thread is that everyone seems to be arguing the same points. I have said twice that I think the Dock and the System prefs panel are good replacements for the Control Strip and the APP menu, and still I am trying to 'bring back OS9'

As for the single app that contains Finder / Sherlock / System Prefs, I don't think it is a 'joke'. You say yourself that The Finder is a file manager, well what good is a file manager if you can't quickly search for files? I insist, more users would take advantage of Sherlock if there was a quick way of accessing it through the Finder window. The point is that the Finder can be more than just a file management tool, it could be the #1 App for working with your system and your files.

"but don't take up space with silly I want to go back to the past arguments"

We will take up as much space as we need, and nobody said I wanted to go back to the past. My ideas incorporate the best parts of both systems. Building on OS9's excellent file management system while adding all of the wonderful new features of OSX. Why is this so stupid?

"dock is more georous than apple menu and control pannel put together"

It is this type of suggestion that will kill Apple. Already people think that these computers are useless but cute. Apple has to prove that they are the best computers to use, not the easiest to look at. How many times have you heard someone say, yeah the iMac is cute, but I want something that works. This frustrates me to no end.


"stop whinning and start creating"

I am certainly not trying to whine, I have designed three new mini apps which I believe are improvements over what currently exist. I thought I would let the forum users look at them to give me more advice on what they like and don't like. Seems like the only unconstructive advice has come from you guys who tell me just to get used to it and stop whining. Nice.


"Expecting Apple to implement every last feature is foolish."

I want nothing more than for Apple to be the best Hardware / Software designer in the business, and I think they are. I don't think it is too much to ask the company to include the features of previous systems which we think are vital. What is the problem with that? It is not backwards thinking, it's forward moving. Enhance your strong points with brilliant new implementations. simple.

I am the first to admit, OSX is the most stable, best designed OS I have ever used. It's beautiful to look at and fun to work with. But it could be better, a lot better, especially where interface is concerned.

That's just what I believe, and I don't think I'm alone.

Sorry for this long rant, but I find this argument very frustrating and discouraging.


Matt


[This message has been edited by matttichenor (edited 11-13-2000).]

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally posted by matttichenor:
I am afraid I don't understand why so many readers have such a problem with users who want to make MacOSX great.

Because

a) these forums are full of thousands of posts always repeating the same old things: Spring-loaded folders, Apple menu, Control strip, yadda, yadda, yadda. It is apparent that many people miss them. It has been said hundreds of times. Good. Point taken. Now go post your feedback to Apple's site and get over it, because that's all that's going to happen for now.
You will not know if any of that will be (re-)implemented until Apple makes a statement or release the Final. Neither will anyone else.

b) We all (except for the odd Wintel troll) want to make OS X great. But there's a difference between constructive criticism and endless bickering. There's a guy over at Macfixit.com's forums that posted something like five hundred messages on how crappy the round mouse was. Never mind that many who were less vocal actually enjoyed using it (me included); never mind that the point had been made often enough in prominent places that Apple was bound to have something in the works. He probably views it as his personal achievement and victory that the (inevitable) optical mouse was finally released.

c) an awful lot of the criticism of OS X isn't. Saying "OS X sucks" is not criticism. So some of us are starting to get slightly allergic. So? You got a Problem!? HUH? YOU WANNA STEP OUTSIDE!? HELL, NO, I'M NOT SHOUTING!!! OS X EFFING WROCKS; OK!!?

d) People keep claiming "this and that have to be there, else it ain't a Mac. These are musts." No they aren't. They weren't for the original Macintosh, which nobody will dispute was "really" a Mac, but they were included later for convenience. They aren't necessary for making OS X a "real" Mac, though they will very likely be included later for convenience. "Later" meaning probably Version 1.0 for some, third-party and then perhaps like Version 3.0 later for others.
If something works in OS X, it's very easy to add to the default distribution - just a licensing question.

Mattichenor, your first post was definitely constructive, and I appreciate it, though I disagree with almost all of your propositions or see them already sufficiently implemented or am simply resigned to having posted my feedback and not knowing until Apple tells us, probably in March.

-chris.

[zythemac]

Love the ideas for the Finder window. Good use of existing space; good way to take already talked about and new ideas and blend them together. The trash I'm ok with except that I'd like to see an additional option to TOTALLY erase already trashed items built in. And the only problem I have with System Prefs (which I like) is that the favorite bar should be on the bottom; every time I select System Prefs from the Dock, I have to move my mouse over (say the Sound) icon in order to go up to the bar Sound icon. Needless to say I never use the bar.

Amen! to people finally getting past picky details. As someone who develops software for a living -- and shares OSX with somebody who still keeps old software because "after version Y it sucked", I will say this:

• So far, neither of us has had problems so severe that we couldn't get past them. We couldn't say the same for Windows.
• No Apple should not create the ultimate application. They need to create the ultimate space where developers can create Insanely Great software. People started using Macs because you couldn't do DTP on anything else. PageMaker made the Mac a must-have. If Photoshop works better on OSX, people will switch. Does anyone really expect Apple to come up with earth-shaking apps -- instead of creating an OS that lets anyone in the world create those apps?
• Another problem with Apple doing all the software: we are all different. I suspect a lot of the bickering I'm hearing is people who had a setup customized to their liking. How could Apple predict how you want your workspace set up? Your desires for customization are why a lot of people make their living selling $10 programs. Patience; these things are already appearing. (I can't get rid of the image of someone complaining upon getting an Aeron chair because it is missing a drink holder. )
• As someone who does software, I sometimes find myself at a dead-end. I've given people what they asked for -- and then they finally ask for the one thing that just can't be done as I've structured it. In these cases, yep: you're going to lose some of the rich detail work that you had grown to love. The app ends up stronger -- and the detail work is always easier to put back in with a better superstructure.
• Finally, if OSX needs to dump minor aspects of OS9 to garner more users, OK. I'd rather be using the alternative to Windows in 2010 than selling my mac as an oddity for $50 in 2006. That, BTW, is why OSX is UNIX beneath its kilt: because most people wouldn't switch to a mac because it had a problem with stability. (It took a while for Windows to catch up...)

So I agree: cut out the knee-jerk reactions. Think about HOW you do your work. Look at it like Palm people do: how can I reduce confusion as well as the number of clicks/movements. Think of how to make things better -- even if it would be radically different. That will help Apple and OSX more than ten websites full of already-heard criticisms.

[This message has been edited by drosenth (edited 11-14-2000).]

Oohh I hate double posts! If I were Yosemite Sam, I'd be levitating from six-shooter propulsion right now.

[This message has been edited by drosenth (edited 11-14-2000).]

[matttichenor]

Anyways, I came up with another idea regarding the Finder. A new way to view icons using Tabs. Hopefully nobody will mind if I post these. I am not sure if anyone else has already suggested this idea but I'm sure we'll find out

Let me know what you think.
http://mypage.direct.ca/n/nticheno/tabs.jpg
http://mypage.direct.ca/n/nticheno/alltabs.jpg

Thanks in advance,
Matt

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally posted by matttichenor:
Let me know what you think.
http://mypage.direct.ca/n/nticheno/tabs.jpg
http://mypage.direct.ca/n/nticheno/alltabs.jpg

Several things:

Your design jumbles hierarchies together. Having one tab for the Window itself and additional tabs for each Folder contained within puts them at the same level for the user and is asking for major confusion.

It also creates the same problem the Windows Explorer has (at least, one problem I have with it; I use it every day at work), which is that if you click on a Folder to see its contents, you still see the folder above it in the hierarchy, but the other documents that folder contains are invisible, while the folders within it are not. I find it extremely irritating to have documents appearing and disappearing like that; I often have to stop and think where to click now to see what I'm looking for.

The Column view is already far superior in this respect.

While tabs are a wonderful solution for some things (such as the different Networking panels in the Preferences, which are subcategories of "Network"), they are not an end-all solution to be applied everywhere.

"Tabbed" windows along the bottom of the screen in OS 9 are also not really tabs. They're shortcuts, and employ a completely different functional metaphor (more like a desk drawer, hence the utility "Drop Drawers").

My point is that tabs are great, but they are really only useful for organizing subcategories of one larger "unit," and not for generating a complex infrastructure basically single-handedly, as your layouts suggest.
Witness the Preferences of Word 98 with its horrible shifting ocean of a dozen tabs for an attempt at managing far too much information via tabs that fails utterly and is, in effect, virtually unusable.

What happens in your view system if a folder contains, say 35 subfolders (which happens frequently - web design, writers, graphics artists)?

Rock on,

-chris.

[This message has been edited by Spheric Harlot (edited 11-14-2000).]

[sordid]

I don't see why people have to be so "religous" over an operating system or platform. Get over it. There are upsides and downsides to all platforms. Wait to see the final product of OS X before you go judging it. Obviously Apple are reading what we are saying and know all of the issues already, they *should be* responsible enough to do that.

[ShortcutToMoncton]

Notice the "should be", kid.....

Some of us live and breathe this, man. You tend to get a little interested when your life is being remodeled by some guy in California.....



greg

------------------
Though the day's been
really long
I still feel I'm close to
nowhere....

[Mr K]

Originally posted by ShortcutToMoncton:
Notice the "should be", kid.....

Some of us live and breathe this, man. You tend to get a little interested when your life is being remodeled by some guy in California.....



greg

Agree. Well, I'm not Cipher13.. (helloooooo Cipher13 :-) )but this is important - I follow the boards regularly.

I can't say I even own X yet, but I really want to do something in the future that would scare me in OS 9.0 - perform music live on stage with a powerbook. I know, I know... it's really stable... some will say... but you wouldn't run a bank on it. I would love to run some amazing software, with two copies running... one as backup...

OS X :"Grooveysoftware copy 1 has unexpectedly quit - you have been automatically moved to Grooveysoftware copy 2"

Or better, "yeah bob, I have had some problems with live software performance... but that was five years ago due to a direct lightening strike... X kept running though"

AFAIK the Pentiums aren't up to scratch for laptops. Windows is pretty good though. Unfortunately it's like a ford vs a ferrari - the fords get better due to massive production.

Although you would never get one company to design the inside of the auto and one to design the outside. Apple's the only one doing this - I swear this (and their wonderful love of design simplicity) is their edge.

Thats my $0.01 (Corrected for the Australian Dollar)

[ecrelin]

If you open a Finder window for your, used-to-be, springloaded folder and minimize it into the dock, it works just like a springloaded folder. As long as you don't have to restart, then it disappears. And yes, if its the only folder in the dock it opens when you hit the finder button. If you have more than one folder in there though it will open the alphabetically first one. However I beleive that this is the easiest way for Apple to recreate that feature. I have suggested that to Apple and got a response, even though they say they don't respond. I took that as a hint meaning that maybe it was a good suggestion. It sounds to me like people aren't trying to use these features as much as they should, the dock rocks! If you are still dragging stuff to the trash manually and need to see the can, then you are probably not an efficient MacOS user either, that is what contextual menus are all about. The right click feature in combo with contextual menus will blow away all that moustrabating. How about a Move To� and Copy To� option in the contextuals that opens a temporary Finder window in multipanel mode at the computer level that goes away when you double click the destination? The one window finder and dock will save mucho time and eliminate clutter as they tweak these things. I hope all you bitchers are sending your comments to Apple, as has been mentioned THIS IS A BETA and they are actually asking for your feedback. Speak up! Remember today's iMacs are not your father's IIci's running 6.0.4 (crash heaven!) and I for one do not want OSX to be OS9.
Later, Ed Crelin
MacInsight, Inc.

[ecrelin]

If you open a Finder window for your, used-to-be, springloaded folder and minimize it into the dock, it works just like a springloaded folder. As long as you don't have to restart, then it disappears. And yes, if its the only folder in the dock it opens when you hit the finder button. If you have more than one folder in there though it will open the alphabetically first one. However I beleive that this is the easiest way for Apple to recreate that feature. I have suggested that to Apple and got a response, even though they say they don't respond. I took that as a hint meaning that maybe it was a good suggestion. It sounds to me like people aren't trying to use these features as much as they should, the dock rocks! If you are still dragging stuff to the trash manually and need to see the can, then you are probably not an efficient MacOS user either, that is what contextual menus are all about. The right click feature in combo with contextual menus will blow away all that moustrabating. How about a Move To� and Copy To� option in the contextuals that opens a temporary Finder window in multipanel mode at the computer level that goes away when you double click the destination? The one window finder and dock will save mucho time and eliminate clutter as they tweak these things. I hope all you bitchers are sending your comments to Apple, as has been mentioned THIS IS A BETA and they are actually asking for your feedback. Speak up! Remember today's iMacs are not your father's IIci's running 6.0.4 (crash heaven!) and I for one do not want OSX to be OS9.
Later, Ed Crelin
MacInsight, Inc.