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Teachers drop the Holocaust to avoid offending Muslims
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Sky Captain
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Apr 2, 2007, 02:19 PM
 
Tell me this is an April Fools joke.
This is a joke, right?


And I thought only Amjamadingdong supported the "holocaust myth".
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Dakar²
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Apr 2, 2007, 02:21 PM
 
I heard this, but I have no understanding. What do the Muslims have to do with the Holocaust?
     
Sky Captain  (op)
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Apr 2, 2007, 02:29 PM
 
The muslim world hates Jews? Iran hates Jews?
*shrug*
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nonhuman
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Apr 2, 2007, 02:49 PM
 
Originally Posted by Dakar² View Post
I heard this, but I have no understanding. What do the Muslims have to do with the Holocaust?
Nothing directly. However in many Muslim countries the holocaust is not a subject covered in schools, and a lot of Muslim youth have never heard of it at all. As a result, they can (reasonably) see no justification whatsoever for the state of Israel nor the way the majority of the world tends to pander to Jewish interests out of guilt (and fear of being labeled an anti-semite).

Lacking that somewhat large piece of historical awareness, it becomes very believable that Jews are an insidious force bent on world domination and that they have already taken over a sizable chunk of the world. Which makes it much easier to swallow and live by the anti-semitic tripe that so many Muslim extremists spout.
     
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Apr 2, 2007, 02:58 PM
 
The sun has set on the empire.
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Apr 2, 2007, 02:59 PM
 
It's no wonder I'm a pessimist.
     
Jawbone54
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Apr 2, 2007, 03:12 PM
 
Heard this on Boortz while driving back from class.

The reason they're dropping the Holocaust from classrooms is because young Muslims often hear rabid antisemitism coming from the lips of their leaders and imams. They are sometimes taught that the Holocaust never took place (see the aforementioned "Amjamadingdong"). Teachers in the UK don't want to cause a disruption in classes due to young Muslims challenging them on the issue, which has evidently happened.
     
Jawbone54
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Apr 2, 2007, 03:16 PM
 
There is also resistance to tackling the 11th century Crusades - where Christians fought Muslim armies for control of Jerusalem - because lessons often contradict what is taught in local mosques.
It found some teachers are dropping courses covering the Holocaust at the earliest opportunity over fears Muslim pupils might express anti-Semitic and anti-Israel reactions in class.
The answer was right there in the article.

I wish every holocaust denier would have the guts to walk through the entire Holocaust museum in D.C. before forming their opinions. I left the place in an incredibly somber mood that lasted for days.
     
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Apr 2, 2007, 03:25 PM
 
the very fact there is a problem about it means it should be taught, and those who deny it challenged.

Maybe some school trips to Auschwitz might help, but then again, probably not.

Welcome to the new Dark Ages - not just yet, but it seems we are on the cusp.
     
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Apr 2, 2007, 03:50 PM
 
Originally Posted by Jawbone54 View Post
The answer was right there in the article.

I wish every holocaust denier would have the guts to walk through the entire Holocaust museum in D.C. before forming their opinions. I left the place in an incredibly somber mood that lasted for days.


I've never had tears in my eyes at a museum before, but the Holocause Museum certainly had me choked up several times. To think that people in power still deny it happened and teach children the same sickens me.

It's sad when both Liberals and Conservatives disappoint me on a daily basis.
     
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Apr 2, 2007, 03:52 PM
 
Originally Posted by Jawbone54 View Post
The answer was right there in the article.

I wish every holocaust denier would have the guts to walk through the entire Holocaust museum in D.C. before forming their opinions. I left the place in an incredibly somber mood that lasted for days.
We stopped there on my senior trip back in high school. The rowdy kids actaully shut up, and it was very touching.
     
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Apr 2, 2007, 04:06 PM
 
Four of the most valuable hours I've ever spent in my life. What's so awe-inspiring is how quiet EVERYONE is. I'm not sure if I was just fortunate enough to not have a rowdy moron walking around the halls, but it seemed that everyone was too afraid to speak any louder than a quiet whisper. I want to take my wife and family with me within the next few years. The only people with me were my in-laws, and we didn't get to spend as much time there as we wished.

The hallway with the thousands of shoes was a highlight.
     
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Apr 2, 2007, 04:11 PM
 
Originally Posted by Sky Captain View Post
Tell me this is an April Fools joke.
This is a joke, right?
It's not a joke.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/secondworl...048082,00.html
Schools have avoided teaching the Holocaust and the Crusades in history lessons because they are concerned about causing offence to Muslim pupils or challenging "charged" versions of history which children have been taught at home, government research has found.
A report for the Department for Education and Skills found that a history department in a northern city had avoided selecting the Holocaust as a GCSE topic for fear of confronting "anti-semitic sentiment and Holocaust denial" among some Muslim pupils.

Another school decided to teach the Holocaust despite anti-semitic sentiment among students, but avoided the Crusades as "their balanced treatment of the topic would have directly challenged what was taught in some local mosques".
As someone said to me yesterday, it's become impossible to tell what is and isn't an April Fool joke in the UK.
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Apr 2, 2007, 04:34 PM
 
I offend muslims every day. Keeps my teeth sharp. If I become politically correct one day I've asked my family to send me to a deserted island to live the rest of my days.

The only people who are afraid of offending muslims are the twits who are ashamed of their christian background. That is, the modern western individual who has stopped believing in God.

V
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Jawbone54
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Apr 2, 2007, 04:39 PM
 
Originally Posted by voodoo View Post
The only people who are afraid of offending muslims are the twits who are ashamed of their christian background. That is, the modern western individual who has stopped believing in God.

V
There is a lot of truth in that statement, I believe.
     
Doofy
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Apr 2, 2007, 04:39 PM
 
Originally Posted by voodoo View Post
The only people who are afraid of offending muslims are the twits who are ashamed of their christian background.
Unfortunately, that's most of the British establishment. And probably those idiots you have in power down there in Iberia too.

We'll just have to work twice as hard to offend.
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Apr 2, 2007, 04:40 PM
 
Originally Posted by Jawbone54 View Post
Originally Posted by the article
There is also resistance to tackling the 11th century Crusades - where Christians fought Muslim armies for control of Jerusalem - because lessons often contradict what is taught in local mosques.
Sounds just like the evolution vs. churches conflict we have sometimes in the US. Honestly, what's wrong with there being contradictions between what's taught in religious school vs. real school?

I'm curious if anyone in this thread finds themselves siding with teaching the holocaust but not teaching evolution (or teaching evolution only as an "unproven alternative"), and what you think the differences are. Not to be off-topic or anything. It just seems like the Team Conservative stance is that way, so maybe some individuals who subcribe can help me sort it out.
     
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Apr 2, 2007, 04:41 PM
 
Yes, blame the atheists and agnostics. All 8% of us.
     
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Apr 2, 2007, 04:46 PM
 
Uh…who's blaming atheists and agnostics?
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Dakar²
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Apr 2, 2007, 04:48 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chuckit View Post
Uh…who's blaming atheists and agnostics?
Originally Posted by voodoo View Post
The only people who are afraid of offending muslims are the twits who are ashamed of their christian background. That is, the modern western individual who has stopped believing in God.
If I got the context of that right, that is.
     
Doofy
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Apr 2, 2007, 04:48 PM
 
Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton View Post
Sounds just like the evolution vs. churches conflict we have sometimes in the US.
It's not really about that. It's more to do with the ruling left's hatred of traditional Christianity. The official (muslim-friendly) version of events is that the Christians were the bad guys. They don't really want it known that the Christians were defending the Holy Land from a muslim invasion, and thus were essentially the good guys. That'd paint Christianity in too good a light for the anti-Christian bigots we have in power at the moment.

For a parallel of this thinking, observe the way Beckett has apologised to Argentina this week over the Falklands. All we were doing was defending our territory, yet this government tries to make out that we were the ones in the wrong.
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Apr 2, 2007, 04:53 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
It's not really about that. It's more to do with the ruling left's hatred of traditional Christianity.
Hatred of Christianity leads to Holocaust denial? It seems that both of these stem from fear of dissenting religious opinions rather than a hatred of Christianity (which may exist — I just don't see it being responsible here).
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Apr 2, 2007, 04:59 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
Unfortunately, that's most of the British establishment. And probably those idiots you have in power down there in Iberia too.

We'll just have to work twice as hard to offend.
Sheesh, you speak truth Doofy. We shall redouble our efforts in offending.

(the socialists in control here now are the most spineless bunch of apoligists towards muslims I've ever seen)

V
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voodoo
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Apr 2, 2007, 05:00 PM
 
Originally Posted by Dakar² View Post
Yes, blame the atheists and agnostics. All 8% of us.
More like 80% over here on the Continent.

V
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Apr 2, 2007, 05:01 PM
 
Originally Posted by Dakar² View Post
I heard this, but I have no understanding. What do the Muslims have to do with the Holocaust?
This comes to mind



In 1941, Haj Amin al-Husseini fled to Germany and met with Adolf Hitler, Heinrich Himmler, Joachim Von Ribbentrop and other Nazi leaders. He wanted to persuade them to extend the Nazis’ anti-Jewish program to the Arab world. Eye In The Sky : February 2005
     
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Apr 2, 2007, 05:04 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chuckit View Post
Hatred of Christianity leads to Holocaust denial? It seems that both of these stem from fear of dissenting religious opinions rather than a hatred of Christianity (which may exist — I just don't see it being responsible here).
It's a bit more complex than that.

The ruling left hates everything traditional, including Christianity. Most lefties hate the traditional stuff in their own countries, because let's face it, the whole ideology of the left is to overthrow capitalism (a feature in most western countries) - tradition supports capitalism, therefore must be overthrown.

Now, the muslims hate the Jews for reasons of their own (usually not getting enough sex and bacon butties, from what I can tell)... ...and generally tend towards holocaust denial because of this hatred. And since the Christians support the Jews, this means that the muslims don't like the Christians (i.e. the traditional west). Not to mention the small thing about wanting to conquer the west for allah.

So, knowing all this, the lefties use muslim-friendly policy (under the guise of equality and political correctness) as a way to destabilise the traditional, capitalist-supporting structure of their own countries.

That's about the top and tail of it. It's way more complex than that but I can't be bothered to explain any more.
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Sky Captain  (op)
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Apr 2, 2007, 05:24 PM
 
Originally Posted by voodoo View Post

The only people who are afraid of offending muslims are the twits who are ashamed of their christian background. That is, the modern western individual who has stopped believing in God.

V
I have a new found respect for you.
For this we can whole heartedly agree on.
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Apr 2, 2007, 05:37 PM
 
Originally Posted by Jawbone54 View Post
There is a lot of truth in that statement, I believe.
Nope. It's bullshit.
     
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Apr 2, 2007, 05:48 PM
 
A Department of Education and Skills spokesman said there was scope for schools to make their own decision on what to teach within the national curriculum

But he added: "Teaching of the Holocaust is already compulsory in schools at KS3. It will remain so in the new KS3 curriculum from September 2008.
BBC NEWS | Education | Schools 'avoid Holocaust lessons'

so maybe it's not all batsh*t crazy just yet.
     
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Apr 2, 2007, 06:20 PM
 
Originally Posted by TETENAL View Post
Nope. It's bullshit.
Here's a fiver saying you're ashamed of your christian background and that you are a modern western individual who doesn't believe in God.

V
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Apr 2, 2007, 06:42 PM
 
Originally Posted by TETENAL View Post
Nope. It's bullshit.
So, why don't you address voodoo and call him on it? Why did you reply to Jawbone54?
     
voodoo
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Apr 2, 2007, 07:00 PM
 
Originally Posted by Railroader View Post
So, why don't you address voodoo and call him on it? Why did you reply to Jawbone54?
Maybe he PM'd me.. maybe you don't know what goes on. Maybe TETENAL has an axe to grind with Jawbone or maybe he was planning this cunning reverse psychological trap to get you to post here.

Maybe..?



V
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Big Mac
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Apr 2, 2007, 07:07 PM
 
This story should only surprise those who have ignored or denied the agenda of Islamo-fascism and the Islamization of Europe.

"The natural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to gain ground." TJ
     
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Apr 2, 2007, 07:35 PM
 
Originally Posted by Big Mac View Post
This story should only surprise those who have ignored or denied the agenda of Islamo-fascism and the Islamization of Europe.
It's not like they're going to get away with Islamization of Europe. They're doing best in the UK, so-so in Germany and Benelux. France is resisting impressively by refusing to be politically correct.

Sorry to shatter the anti-French sentiment, but north of the Iberian peninsula they are resisting most effectively. It is sad to see how the UK bends over for the Islamo-fascism.

V
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Apr 2, 2007, 07:46 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
It's a bit more complex than that.

The ruling left hates everything traditional, including Christianity. Most lefties hate the traditional stuff in their own countries, because let's face it, the whole ideology of the left is to overthrow capitalism (a feature in most western countries) - tradition supports capitalism, therefore must be overthrown.

<snip>


That's about the top and tail of it. It's way more complex than that but I can't be bothered to explain any more.
Have you seen this?

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...87273321&hl=en

Interesting IMHO.
     
voodoo
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Apr 2, 2007, 08:05 PM
 
Originally Posted by Face Ache View Post
Have you seen this?

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...87273321&hl=en

Interesting IMHO.
Ooo thanks for the link! Is this the same guy who made the Power of Nightmares?

V
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Doofy
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Apr 2, 2007, 08:08 PM
 
Originally Posted by Face Ache View Post
Have you seen this?

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...87273321&hl=en

Interesting IMHO.
It's that thing about game theory, right?
Haven't seen it yet but had some bloke I know bend my ear about if for a week. Will have a watch then do a Doof-analysis.
Been inclined to wander... off the beaten track.
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voodoo
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Apr 2, 2007, 10:10 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
It's that thing about game theory, right?
Haven't seen it yet but had some bloke I know bend my ear about if for a week. Will have a watch then do a Doof-analysis.
Considering how the Blair administration is humiliated in this documentary, I'm assuming the Doof-analysis will give it the



V
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Apr 2, 2007, 10:42 PM
 
Originally Posted by bstone View Post
This comes to mind

So does this:



Oh, wait, that's the West being fascinated with Hitler ...

Truth is, up until the start of the war, almost everyone was cuddling up to Hitler.
     
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Apr 3, 2007, 01:07 AM
 
"The world hates Jews". It's in the genes. Jews even hate Jews.

The Wicked Son:
Anti-Semitism, Self-Hatred
and the Jews.
By David Mamet
( Last edited by Atomic Rooster; Apr 3, 2007 at 01:32 AM. )
     
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Apr 3, 2007, 03:21 AM
 
Originally Posted by voodoo View Post
Ooo thanks for the link! Is this the same guy who made the Power of Nightmares?
Yeah. Parts 2 & 3 are on the Google as well.
     
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Apr 3, 2007, 05:35 AM
 
Originally Posted by Wiskedjak View Post
Oh, wait, that's the West being fascinated with Hitler ...

Truth is, up until the start of the war, almost everyone was cuddling up to Hitler.
Gee, somehow I don't think Time magazine was trying to get Hitler to "...extend his anti-Jewish practices to the US."

Also, you're comparing 1938 to late 1941- so the 'start of the war' comparison is off quite a bit.
     
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Apr 3, 2007, 07:23 AM
 
Originally Posted by nonhuman
Nothing directly. However in many Muslim countries the holocaust is not a subject covered in schools, and a lot of Muslim youth have never heard of it at all. As a result, they can (reasonably) see no justification whatsoever for the state of Israel nor the way the majority of the world tends to pander to Jewish interests out of guilt (and fear of being labeled an anti-semite).

Lacking that somewhat large piece of historical awareness, it becomes very believable that Jews are an insidious force bent on world domination and that they have already taken over a sizable chunk of the world. Which makes it much easier to swallow and live by the anti-semitic tripe that so many Muslim extremists spout.
Some Austrian-German guy sixty-odd years ago decided to kill some six million Jews in Europe. Whilst this certainly justifies inclusion in any European school curriculum, I frankly see no logical reason why it should be an essential part of the curriculum in the Middle East.

To what extent are historical genocides that happened elsewhere and have little to do with your own country or region, say in China or Russia (a combined 100,000,000 dead), taught in Europe and America? It's almost as if someone was trying to make the murder of Jews seem worse than the murder of anyone else.

Even the fact that other groups besides Jews were also persecuted and killed by the Nazi regime, including some 220,000 Gypsies, as well as the disabled (see Action T4), homosexuals, Communists and other political prisoners, Jehovah's Witnesses, Polish citizens, and Soviet POWs (Ukrainians, Russians and Byelorussians), is traditionally given far less attention than it deserves. That's another three to five million Nazi victims who don't seem to matter much in the scheme of things.

Got to learn about The Holocaust.
Got to learn about The Holocaust.
Don't research.
Don't question.
Never forget.
Jews are always victims.
Always.
Got to "learn" about The Holocaust™.
No one else matters.


If that's the kind of message being taught, I think it's wrong, and one needs to seriously consider whether the Shoah has been given disproportionate emphasis in Western schools for political reasons.





In total, during the first eighty-eight years of the 20th century, almost 170,000,000 men, women, and children have been shot, beaten, tortured, knifed, burned, starved, frozen, crushed, or worked to death; or buried alive, drowned, hanged, bombed, or killed in any other of the myriad ways. Governments have inflicted death on unarmed, helpless citizens or foreigners. Adding the human cost of war to this democide total, governments have violently killed over 203,000,000 people in the last century.

That aside, I think this current multicultural oversensitivity trend in education is insane. One group doesn't want to learn about this because it offends their pride, another doesn't want to hear about that because it doesn't mesh with their stupid religious indoctrination. Who bloody cares? Education should be about cramming as much information into pupils' heads as possible, screw them if they can't handle the implications.
     
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Apr 3, 2007, 08:13 AM
 
Originally Posted by voodoo View Post
More like 80% over here on the Continent.
By your standards, no doubt.

Not by a realistic measure.
     
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Apr 3, 2007, 08:53 AM
 
Originally Posted by voodoo View Post
I offend muslims every day. Keeps my teeth sharp. If I become politically correct one day I've asked my family to send me to a deserted island to live the rest of my days.

The only people who are afraid of offending muslims are the twits who are ashamed of their christian background. That is, the modern western individual who has stopped believing in God.

V
Well, I never believed in God and I don't want to offend anyone. Islam is another religion and to us atheists, ya'll kinda look the same with your booming voices in burning bushes, falling rocks from the sky, magical resurrections, etc. It's all a little hard for us to take seriously, but it's obviously important to you folks, so I for one try to be understanding.

That said, this is just one of many indications that there is real cause for concern about Muslim culture worldwide. Christianity was this backward in the 13th century and it grew out of it (well, mostly), but I don't think we can sit around and wait for some sort of Renaissance-like enlightenment to lift up the Muslim world.

I don't think anyone should be tiptoeing around the ignorance and chauvinism of this pervasive cultural phenomenon inside the Muslim world. It needs to be confronted--with superior ideas and information.

The absolute last thing we should do is censor history to try to placate the sensibilities of the ignorant, any more than we should censor biology textbooks for the ignorance of fundamentalist Christians. If the truth hurts, get a different world view.
     
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Apr 3, 2007, 11:22 AM
 
Originally Posted by Dakar² View Post
By your standards, no doubt.

Not by a realistic measure.
Absoloutly not. Very few are athiest, but very very many are agnostic. Agnostics and atheists are definitely in the 80% range in Europe.

V
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Dakar²
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Apr 3, 2007, 11:28 AM
 
Got any polls to back this up?
     
Big Mac
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Apr 3, 2007, 11:37 AM
 
Originally Posted by red rocket View Post
Some Austrian-German guy sixty-odd years ago decided to kill some six million Jews in Europe. Whilst this certainly justifies inclusion in any European school curriculum, I frankly see no logical reason why it should be an essential part of the curriculum in the Middle East.
It should be essential curriculum for every civil society. Why? Because the Holocaust was a unique event in human history - systematic genocide of half the world's population of Jews. Yes, there have been greater numerical crimes of genocide, but the Holocaust is a unique example. Why else is it important for middle eastern students to learn about? Because that entire region is steeped in Holocaust denial and Nazi-inspired Jew-hatred. And denial of the Holocaust is yet another way in which the Islamic world dehumanizes and rejects the existence of the Jewish people. Why else is it important? Because the most powerful Muslim country in the region, Iran, openly aspires to perpetrate a second Holocaust.

On the other hand, one could argue that the Islamic world is so thoroughly invested in Jew-hatred propaganda that it's counterproductive to try to educate that population. That may be the case, but unless England was to turn Islamic it better instruct its people not to genuflect to Islamic historical revisionism.

"The natural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to gain ground." TJ
     
voodoo
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Apr 3, 2007, 11:43 AM
 
Originally Posted by Dakar² View Post
Got any polls to back this up?
Hmm yea I suppose. Lesseee...

Italy wasn't far behind the U.S., with 62 percent believing in a god. In the other countries, believers in God are the minority: 48 percent of Spaniards, 41 percent of Germans, 35 percent of Britons and just 27 percent of the French believe in any form of a supreme being.
IHS :: HNN :: Religious Decline in U.S. Follows Europe

The Shitalians are the most 'religious' because of the Vatican's proximity.

Then there is Scandinavia in the 70+% mark etc. It is way closer to 80% than 8%, as was my point.

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Gossamer
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Apr 3, 2007, 12:26 PM
 
Originally Posted by voodoo View Post
The Shitalians are the most 'religious' because of the Vatican's proximity.
     
 
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