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You are here: MacNN Forums > Community > MacNN Lounge > Political/War Lounge > Where are the guts from the British Government?

Where are the guts from the British Government? (Page 2)
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Orion27
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Apr 2, 2007, 12:41 PM
 
Originally Posted by voodoo View Post
Indeed, but sometimes the British people are just shy of insane in their reasoning. I'm fine with proud and arrogant, but insane kind of ruins the fun.

I'm thinking of Gibraltar of course. A strategic piece of land that was taken by force by the British. It has never been returned. Menorca was returned, as should Gibraltar.

It is ours.

V
Maybe you could seek the aid of Islamists who blew up your trains. You could reclaim the Rock in the the name of Allah. You could then return the Dark Ages and Moor rule over the Iberian Peninsula. After all, it's their's.
     
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Apr 2, 2007, 12:49 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
This current issue with Gibraltar is only 'coz Franco was getting pissy about it back in '53.
Mhmm. I've read the treaty. It doesn't really make a difference. Nor does Franco make a difference. That guyis long dead, like the royalty that wrote that treaty. Gibraltar is an indivisible part of Spain and was illegally and immorally taken by Britain.

Spanish people lived there for millennia and some piece of paper is changing that? I think not. Gibraltar isn't even a part of the UK, it's not even a country. It is a territory or colony. It has no sovreignty. It can only become part of Spain. Never sovreign.. that's mentioned in the treaty of Utrecht, see.

There is no right the British have over it after ethnically cleansing the Spanish from the area after invading. Defending the protection of Gibraltar by the UK is sad and really pathetic. There is no excuse.

Gibraltar is ours.

V
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voodoo
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Apr 2, 2007, 12:50 PM
 
Originally Posted by Orion27 View Post
Maybe you could seek the aid of Islamists who blew up your trains. You could reclaim the Rock in the the name of Allah. You could then return the Dark Ages and Moor rule over the Iberian Peninsula. After all, it's their's.
Are you insane or just plain stupid? Oh oh, there is a third option. A bit of both.

V
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Orion27
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Apr 2, 2007, 01:15 PM
 
Originally Posted by voodoo View Post
Are you insane or just plain stupid? Oh oh, there is a third option. A bit of both.

V
Well, Spain is well on it's way towards conversion. Don't see why the Brits should give it back just to have to retake it.
     
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Apr 2, 2007, 01:31 PM
 
Originally Posted by Orion27 View Post
Well, Spain is well on it's way towards conversion. Don't see why the Brits should give it back just to have to retake it.
QED, stupid AND insane.

V
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Apr 2, 2007, 01:35 PM
 
The Brits used to rule the waves, now they just wave the rules.
All men are created equal, but what they do after that point puts them on a sliding scale.
     
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Apr 2, 2007, 01:37 PM
 
Originally Posted by Sky Captain View Post
The Brits used to rule the waves, now they just wave the rules.
.
     
Wiskedjak
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Apr 2, 2007, 02:37 PM
 
Originally Posted by Sky Captain View Post
The Brits used to rule the waves, now they just wave the rules.
Nice! Come up with that one yourself, or find it somewhere?
     
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Apr 2, 2007, 02:53 PM
 
Originally Posted by Sky Captain View Post
The Brits used to rule the waves, now they just wave the rules.

"waive"
     
Sky Captain
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Apr 2, 2007, 02:59 PM
 
Originally Posted by Wiskedjak View Post
Nice! Come up with that one yourself, or find it somewhere?
I'm funny like that.
Sometimes I can fire off a quick one.
I used it last week elsewhere.
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Aron Peterson
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Apr 2, 2007, 03:30 PM
 
Originally Posted by voodoo View Post

Gibraltar is ours.

V
The people of Gibraltar were given a poll 5 years ago. Out of those who voted, 96% voted to remain a part of Britain forever, 3% voted for independence and 1% voted in favour of Spain. These voters are much happier being British than Spanish even though they speak both languages and nearly all have Spanish blood.

Most Hong Kongers didn't want to become part of China either. Think about what that means.
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Apr 2, 2007, 03:31 PM
 
The UK gov't can make stupid laws that make criminals of us all, but when it comes to delivering...

this 30 min radio broadcast (quite funny, worth a listen) may give a bit of insight into the UK gov't's doings:

BBC Radio 4 -Mark Thomas

About a man protesting within the law and obeying SOCPA laws. Involves riots, trolls, cakes, ghost, Churchill, police, anarchists and so forth...
     
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Apr 2, 2007, 04:27 PM
 
Originally Posted by Aron Peterson View Post
The people of Gibraltar were given a poll 5 years ago.
Why is it so hard to understand that the people of Gibraltar are not a nation, nor are they sovreign. Their opinion is for ALL intents and purposes, worthless.

Most Hong Kongers didn't want to become part of China either. Think about what that means.
That they had no choice, that like Gibraltar they have no say in the matter and that the UK is a hypocritic nation when the give Hong Kong back, because it belonged to China, defended the Falkland Islands because they were invaded and refuse to give back Gibraltar even though THEY invaded Gibraltar AND it belongs to Spain.

British people who think the UK has any other hold over Gibraltar than that of an invading and ethnic-cleansing force, well they are very stupid people.

I'm not surprised though. Many many brits are such twits that they actually think nothing is more normal than keeping territories that they occupied centuries ago.

You have to get three things through your head Aron.

1. Gibraltar is a territory, without ANY sovreignty.
2. Gibraltar is part of Spain that was invaded and occupied bu Britain.
3. Gibraltar can never become anything except a part of Spain, when the Britain releases it.

It can never become a country nor can it become a part of the UK. Either it will always be a territory or a part of Spain again. The people of Gibraltar don't have a say and if you compare Spain to China again I suggest you take a long walk of a short pier.

V
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Aron Peterson
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Apr 2, 2007, 05:56 PM
 
Originally Posted by voodoo View Post
Why is it so hard to understand that the people of Gibraltar are not a nation, nor are they sovreign. Their opinion is for ALL intents and purposes, worthless.
V
That is nasty, Franco.
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Apr 2, 2007, 06:14 PM
 
Originally Posted by typoon View Post
Tony Blair: Iranian Regime 'Doesn't Fool Anyone'

"I really don't know why the Iranian regime keeps doing this. All it does is enhance peoples' disgust at captured personnel being paraded and manipulated in this way," Blair said. "It doesn't fool anyone."

WHAT!? Is Blair really this wimpy? He should be doing anything and everything to get these soldiers back. Is Blair really that dense that he Doesn't "know why the Iranian regime keeps doing this?" He should be knocking out the Iranian Navy and demanding the troops back or more of the Iranian ships would be destroyed. He needs to take a stronger stance than this.
How soon we forget. Let me take this opportunity to remind you. 3 words should suffice:

1. Israel
2. Lebanon
3. 2006

Recent history clearly demonstrates that starting a war to force the release of prisoners is rather ineffective.

OAW
     
voodoo
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Apr 2, 2007, 06:16 PM
 
Originally Posted by Aron Peterson View Post
That is nasty, Franco.
Cute. Political correctness is boring, you know. Truth of the matter is just what I said. The inhabitants don't have a say.

It's not so bad. In most countries people under the age of 18 don't have a say. In this case it is just people who live in a certain place. Any one of those people could move to the UK and have a real vote.

Does reality offend so much? Wake up and smell the coffee, because the sooner we can get these people back into Spain (or send them to the UK) they get full rights and a say.

You are a twit however for suggesting I'm a Francoist, because I want Gibraltar back into Spain. It is 6.5 sq km of land and about 28 000 people. It was taken and we want it back. It isn't a nation. It isn't sovreign. It is tiny, but for Spain a very important land, strategically and historically.

Right now it just serves as a tax-haven for the rich and the criminally minded. That is what has prevented Spain in regaining Gibraltar thus far. Money. Lots and lots of it, that is kept and washed in Gibraltar.

V
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Aron Peterson
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Apr 2, 2007, 06:29 PM
 
Originally Posted by voodoo View Post
You are a twit however for suggesting I'm a Francoist, because I want Gibraltar back into Spain. It is 6.5 sq km of land and about 28 000 people. It was taken and we want it back. It isn't a nation. It isn't sovreign. It is tiny, but for Spain a very important land, strategically and historically.
V
Well strategically, economically and historically speaking I'd like the global population to drop to about 1 million so we can all own lots of land and farm for ourselves like we did back in the early stone age, but I know I can't have that utopia or live in some far flung glorious past, so I suggest you stop living in the past too.

It's not like Spain needs a strategic location. Whatever you need you get from the EU. Britain pays 5 billion to the EU every year. Spain gets 5 billion every year from the EU. If Britain and other EU states are subsidising your economy you could at least show some respect for people of Gibraltar who are very happy not being Spanish anymore.

Right now it just serves as a tax-haven for the rich and the criminally minded. That is what has prevented Spain in regaining Gibraltar thus far. Money. Lots and lots of it, that is kept and washed in Gibraltar.
It's all good taxes are being saved when your country is being subsidised so heavily.
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Apr 2, 2007, 06:54 PM
 
Originally Posted by Aron Peterson View Post
but I know I can't have that utopia or live in some far flung glorious past, so I suggest you stop living in the past too.
I suggest you get a brain, but medical science just hasn't progressed enough to offer reliable brain-transplants. It is our country, our land and our right. This isn't the past I'm talking about. It is the future.

The rest of your post was just irrelevant drivel.

V
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Apr 2, 2007, 07:14 PM
 
Originally Posted by voodoo View Post
Why is it so hard to understand that the people of Gibraltar are not a nation, nor are they sovreign. Their opinion is for ALL intents and purposes, worthless.
Why shouldn't the people of a disputed region have a say in their own fate, property and land? Your suggestion that the democratic will of a people be completely suppressed because of nationalistic pride on the part of Spain seems to suggest that you don't support democracy at all. That's probably where you're getting comparisons to Franco.

Gibraltar hasn't been part of Spain since 1713. An analogy that comes to mind is like Britain try to claim sovereignty over Massachusetts since its only been separated since 1776. Gibraltar is gone, get over it.
     
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Apr 2, 2007, 07:31 PM
 
Originally Posted by Zeeb View Post
Why shouldn't the people of a disputed region have a say in their own fate, property and land? Your suggestion that the democratic will of a people be completely suppressed because of nationalistic pride on the part of Spain seems to suggest that you don't support democracy at all. That's probably where you're getting comparisons to Franco.

Gibraltar hasn't been part of Spain since 1713. An analogy that comes to mind is like Britain try to claim sovereignty over Massachusetts since its only been separated since 1776. Gibraltar is gone, get over it.
You politically correct sheep. Also dyslexic on legal procedure. Gibraltar is not a sovreign entity. Any part of the USA is.

Do you know anything? Do you know why sovreignity is important? I'll tell you. That's important because then the people who live in that sovreign country can decide their future themselves.

That's what SOVREIGN MEANS. Gibraltar is not.

Gibraltar can never become sovreign. They are owned by the UK, but are essentially just a land that can be bought or sold. The only nation that can buy Gibraltar is Spain. See the treaty of Utrecht. That means they can't buy themselves.

Gibraltar will then be re-absorbed into Spain. This is our front porch we're talking about and no amount of time is going to change that. It is inevitable that Gibraltar will be returned. Like Hong Kong and all other things Britain has stolen through the ages.

You analogy to Massachusetts analogy is just wrong. There is no analogy to be had. Read up on Gibraltar and the treaty of Utrecht.

Typically, as an anglophone and a bleeding heart liberal, you're inclined to side with Gibraltar. No surprise there, but then you don't actually know anything. The world is larger than you think and as I said, this is our front porch we're talking about.

It belongs to us.

V
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moodymonster
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Apr 2, 2007, 07:32 PM
 
yeah the British are so bad and evil. Who helped Spain kick the French out?
     
voodoo
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Apr 2, 2007, 07:39 PM
 
Originally Posted by moodymonster View Post
yeah the British are so bad and evil. Who helped Spain kick the French out?
Never said you were bad and evil, just that it was mighty selfish to prevent Gibraltar to become part of Spain again. Asides from the traditional cuisine and carpeted bathrooms, I like the British very much.

Still, the right thing to do would be to return Gibraltar. That would mean Spain could get out of N-Africa and seal the borders south more effectively among other things. Plus we'd be very happy with you people.. at least until you swarm over again and puke all over our streets in an alcoholic euphoria.

V
I could take Sean Connery in a fight... I could definitely take him.
     
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Apr 2, 2007, 07:47 PM
 
Didn't Spain send their entire navy to invade a goat colony near Morocco recently?


Anyways. Gibraltar. Don't ya think it'd be better to free ourselves from being bitches of Brussels first? I mean, while those prats are in charge it really doesn't matter who owns what, does it?
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Apr 2, 2007, 07:48 PM
 
sorry, re the bad and evil - just a bit frustrated with people lately. Seems of late, only the Brits/anglos can do evil.
     
Orion27
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Apr 2, 2007, 07:51 PM
 
Originally Posted by voodoo View Post
Never said you were bad and evil, just that it was mighty selfish to prevent Gibraltar to become part of Spain again. Asides from the traditional cuisine and carpeted bathrooms, I like the British very much.

Still, the right thing to do would be to return Gibraltar. That would mean Spain could get out of N-Africa and seal the borders south more effectively among other things. Plus we'd be very happy with you people.. at least until you swarm over again and puke all over our streets in an alcoholic euphoria.

V
You accused the British of Ethnic cleansing and their occupation as illegal and immoral, Sven. Clearly there is a treaty, and three hundred years of letting Spain be Spain. Which gives them the moral high ground here.
     
voodoo
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Apr 2, 2007, 07:52 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
Didn't Spain send their entire navy to invade a goat colony near Morocco recently?
hehe

Anyways. Gibraltar. Don't ya think it'd be better to free ourselves from being bitches of Brussels first? I mean, while those prats are in charge it really doesn't matter who owns what, does it?
Perhaps in the grand scheme of the day to day activity, yes. You would be right, but then with that POV being prevalent it undermined the national feeling and pride that is needed to remove the Brussels shackles.

A nation that perceives nationality as unimportant and feels even the smallest national victories (such as the re-absorbsion of Gibraltar) are impossibe are just putty in the hands of the Brussels Euro-Socialists.

In the long run, it would be most beneficial for all of Europe if Gibraltar was returned to Spain, but not to the EU.

V
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Apr 2, 2007, 07:54 PM
 
Originally Posted by moodymonster View Post
sorry, re the bad and evil - just a bit frustrated with people lately. Seems of late, only the Brits/anglos can do evil.
Sorry for giving you that feeling, when it is my belief that only Orion27 can do evil

I kid. I love you guys in Britain. Hugs and kisses x0x0x0x0x



V
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voodoo
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Apr 2, 2007, 07:55 PM
 
Originally Posted by Orion27 View Post
You accused the British of Ethnic cleansing and their occupation as illegal and immoral, Sven.
Well, this is all true, Shirley. Occupations are not allowed any more, nor are ethnic cleansings moral.

V
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Aron Peterson
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Apr 2, 2007, 07:56 PM
 
I'll happily be called an Anglophile. In history, three nations have been most responsible for pushing forward civilisation - Greece, Rome and Britain. They weren't perfect but they did more than anyone else to establish the modernity we have around us today. That's why Gibraltarians want to remain British.
( Last edited by Aron Peterson; Sep 28, 2014 at 07:53 AM. )
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Apr 2, 2007, 08:00 PM
 
Originally Posted by voodoo View Post
Sorry for giving you that feeling, when it is my belief that only Orion27 can do evil

I kid. I love you guys in Britain. Hugs and kisses x0x0x0x0x



V
no worries

¡Viva España!
     
Orion27
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Apr 2, 2007, 08:07 PM
 
Originally Posted by voodoo View Post
Well, this is all true, Shirley. Occupations are not allowed any more, nor are ethnic cleansings moral.

V
So, Sven the Spaniard, given Spains Facist history and support of the Nazi's you still claim the moral high ground? How old is your democracy, Sven, 30yrs? So I do understand your a little slow on the uptake. When a referendum passes 98 to 2, the bigger number wins.
     
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Apr 2, 2007, 08:07 PM
 
Originally Posted by Aron Peterson View Post
He's going to call you some mean and nasty names, say one Our Father, ten Hail Marys, then return to call you some more names on this one.

Look out.
ebuddy
     
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Apr 2, 2007, 08:09 PM
 
Originally Posted by Aron Peterson View Post
I'll happily be called an Anglophile. In history, three nations have been most responsible for pushing forward civilisation - Greece, Rome and Britain. They weren't perfect but they did more than anyone else to establish the modernity we have around us today. That's why Gibraltarians want to remain British, otherwise they'd have people like this living with them...

Fixed™

V
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voodoo
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Apr 2, 2007, 08:12 PM
 
Originally Posted by Orion27 View Post
So, Sven the Spaniard, given Spains Facist history and support of the Nazi's you still claim the moral high ground?
This isn't a competition of moral high-ground, Shirley. It is simply, return our land back. That's it. We'll take good care of it.

Perhaps you'd want the British to be your lords still. I'm sure they'd consider it if you'd ask them nicely.

V
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Apr 2, 2007, 08:13 PM
 
Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
He's going to call you some mean and nasty names, say one Our Father, ten Hail Marys, then return to call you some more names on this one.

Look out.


That's our special relationship, ebuddy. I wouldn't cheat on you. Promise.

V
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Orion27
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Apr 2, 2007, 08:23 PM
 
Originally Posted by voodoo View Post
This isn't a competition of moral high-ground, Shirley. It is simply, return our land back. That's it. We'll take good care of it.

Perhaps you'd want the British to be your lords still. I'm sure they'd consider it if you'd ask them nicely.

V
I'll ask you directly, when did you become a citizen of Spain??
     
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Apr 2, 2007, 08:29 PM
 
Honestly can't we loan the Brits some f###ing balls, they kidnap your sailors? sink their f###ing navy, what are they gonna do back, honestly under the threat of an atomic ICBM? nothing thats what.
     
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Apr 3, 2007, 05:54 AM
 
Originally Posted by voodoo View Post
It is simply, return our land back. That's it. We'll take good care of it.

V
5 points.

1. The Spanish economy relies on drunk British tourists more than Britain relies on Spain for anything.
2. Spain has a crap economy and is heavily subsidised by the EU to the tune of 5 billion euros a year. That's the same amount Britain gives to the EU yearly.
3. When are Spanish fishermen going to stop fishing in British waters?
4. More and more young Spaniards move to Britain every year in search of jobs.
5. The. People. Of. Gibraltar. Don't. Like. Spain.

So when you say you'll take good care of Gibraltar it doesn't ring true because you can't look after yourselves. Without Britain your nation would be bankrupt.
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Apr 3, 2007, 11:33 AM
 
Originally Posted by Aron Peterson View Post
5 points.

1. The Spanish economy relies on drunk British tourists more than Britain relies on Spain for anything.
2. Spain has a crap economy and is heavily subsidised by the EU to the tune of 5 billion euros a year. That's the same amount Britain gives to the EU yearly.
3. When are Spanish fishermen going to stop fishing in British waters?
4. More and more young Spaniards move to Britain every year in search of jobs.
5. The. People. Of. Gibraltar. Don't. Like. Spain.
1. Back that up by numbers, i.e. talking out of your nether regions doesn't help your case. What has that got to do with Gibraltar?
2. The economy is fine, the subsidies are for farming and infrastructure and are integral to the Union. Spain could be the richest country in the world and it would still receive those subsidies. That how the Union works. You are an American so you are not expected to know anything, but you could at least familiarize yourself with the topic before starting stupid slandering. What has that got to do with Gibraltar?
3. Why should they and what has that got to do with Gibraltar?
4. Yes, I'm sure. Also more and more Spaniards are born every year. Makes sense that more and more Spaniards are doing anything. More and more Spaniards are reading the newspapers every year. What has that got to do with Gibraltar?
5. The. People. Of. Gibraltar. Don't. Have. A. Say. (all 27 thousand of them) Try to understand this. If this is not possible, then stop embarrassing yourself. You don't really know anything about this and you bring up points completely irrelevant to your case.

You appear as a typical anti-Spanish anglo-fascist. No surprise, there are tons and tons of them out there and they all sound like you.

So when you say you'll take good care of Gibraltar it doesn't ring true because you can't look after yourselves. Without Britain your nation would be bankrupt.
..you have never set foot on Spanish ground, have you? And that without Britain we would be hehe heheheheheh ayayay ahahaha .. bankrupt!?

Oh my, you are daft. Oh well, you need say no more. It is clear you know nothing

V
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Apr 3, 2007, 01:59 PM
 
Originally Posted by voodoo View Post
5. The. People. Of. Gibraltar. Don't. Have. A. Say. (all 27 thousand of them) Try to understand this. If this is not possible, then stop embarrassing yourself. You don't really know anything about this and you bring up points completely irrelevant to your case.
Seems to me Spain doesn't have much of a say in the matter either.

On technical grounds I completely agree with you, however...3 centuries later and against 98% of the native population I don't think Spain has much of a leg to stand on, nor do I think they should.

And another thing....it was never your land. It was the land of the citizens of Spain 10 generations ago....who did not get it back, nor did their children, their children's children, or even their children's children's children. So on a moral ground, I don't see how the people of Spain today can demand sovereignity over unwilling citizens.
     
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Apr 3, 2007, 02:22 PM
 
Originally Posted by Snow-i View Post
Seems to me Spain doesn't have much of a say in the matter either.
Spain has more to say in the matter than you might think, because of the treaty of Utrecht. While Spain can't do anything but demand the UK let's go of Gibraltar, the only possible fate for Gibraltar is to become part of Spain again if that happens. That is, because of Spain, Gibraltar can never become anything but a territory without sovreignity. Ever.

Aaanyway, rooting for the people who occupy Gibraltar is nice and politically correct, but in the end they don't matter. Money matters and money is the only thing keeping them a territory still. The UK controls this completely and 27 thousand and change aren't going to affect the will of the ≈100 million people of the UK and Spain if it came to that.

On technical grounds I completely agree with you,
glad to hear it!
however...3 centuries later and against 98% of the native population I don't think Spain has much of a leg to stand on, nor do I think they should.
As I said, it is 48 million against 27 thousand and the latter don't have sovreignty so their 'will' is essentially irrelevant. Sovreignty is important in this discussion. Imagine if a town wanted to secede from the USA. That town is not sovreign. I can't imagine you'd support that town in seceding from the USA. I'm sure you'd just ignore them completely. As one should the people of Gibraltar.

And another thing....it was never your land.
Then it hardly matters how long the UK has held Gibraltar, because that was previous generations of the British. Come now. History matters, especially in Europe. It is most important. Also geography and culture. Gibraltar is part of Spain and previous generations of Spaniards fought and killed a lot of Muslims to regain Gibraltar - not to mention their freedom from oppression and independence. That land is ours. We had it before the Muslims and the British. It is part of our peninsula and our heritage.

It was the land of the citizens of Spain 10 generations ago....who did not get it back, nor did their children, their children's children, or even their children's children's children.
Menorca was also occupied by the UK for a long time, and they gave it back, like the good people that they are. Now it is time for Gibraltar.

So on a moral ground, I don't see how the people of Spain today can demand sovereignity over unwilling citizens.
Well, the land is ours. The people who lived there were deported by the British. The people currently living there would be free to stay and become Spanish or leave to the UK. Nobody is demanding sovreignity over those people. They are free to do what they want.

On a moral ground, I can't imagine any nation more deserving of Gibraltar than the Spanish. They had it for a millennia, fought and defended it, lost and reconquered it and kept bay the moslem hordes from conquering Europe.

Americans like to point out that we should all be thankful to them that we're not speaking German. Well, you should be thankful to Spain that you're not speaking Arabic.

V
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Apr 3, 2007, 02:54 PM
 
if the UK was going to give Gibraltar up, this gov't would have done it by now. If Tone 'apologise for everything under the sun' Bliar isn't going to give it up - it's not gonna happen.

Why would we give it up anyway? Admittedly, it's a bit dirty - you can really tell you're in Spain or Gibraltar. But given the people there don't want to be part of Spain and it's a great place strategically, it doesn't make sense for us to surrender it.
     
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Apr 3, 2007, 03:22 PM
 
Originally Posted by moodymonster View Post
if the UK was going to give Gibraltar up, this gov't would have done it by now. If Tone 'apologise for everything under the sun' Bliar isn't going to give it up - it's not gonna happen.

Why would we give it up anyway? Admittedly, it's a bit dirty - you can really tell you're in Spain or Gibraltar. But given the people there don't want to be part of Spain and it's a great place strategically, it doesn't make sense for us to surrender it.
There are many many good reasons to give it up and not one good reason to keep it. I've gone through them in many many previous posts here in this thread.

Besides, is it really up to the prime minister to make this decision? I ask because I have no idea who is responsible for the continuing British support of Gibraltar.

Is there any other reason than misplaced national pride of an era long gone to continue to hold a part of Spain? Less than 7 sq km?

If the tables were turned and Spain had a territory in Britain, say Southampton, would you support the people of Southampton against the UK in a similar situation?

I don't think you would.. even if Southampton was a Spanish territory for 300 years. So, giving Gibraltar back isn't that audacious of a request IMHO.

V
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Apr 3, 2007, 03:39 PM
 
You can have London if you want V.
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Apr 3, 2007, 03:54 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
You can have London if you want V.
You know my ancestors attacked, occupied and controlled London for quite some time. Then it got too liberal for us

V
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Apr 3, 2007, 08:03 PM
 
Originally Posted by voodoo View Post
As I said, it is 48 million against 27 thousand and the latter don't have sovreignty so their 'will' is essentially irrelevant. Sovreignty is important in this discussion. Imagine if a town wanted to secede from the USA. That town is not sovreign. I can't imagine you'd support that town in seceding from the USA. I'm sure you'd just ignore them completely. As one should the people of Gibraltar.
This argument is totally ridiculous. Of course no one would support a town seceding from the U.S. in this day and age. If that same town had successfully seceded 300 years ago I wouldn't give a damn. This type of ancestral claim to land lost generations ago is one of the stupid factors that keep people fighting and losing their lives. The only way Spain is going to get Gibraltar back any time soon is if follow the proud Spanish tradition of authoritarian power and forcefully take it back. Before you do, you need to install a new dictator(since you lost your last one in 1975) kill all the current residents or expel them, seize their land and property, and replace them with Spanish citizens. I think that would fix it for you and the international community would support that. Blah, blah its my heritage, blah blah blah, its my right! Noise.
     
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Apr 3, 2007, 09:07 PM
 
Originally Posted by Zeeb View Post
This argument is totally ridiculous. Of course no one would support a town seceding from the U.S. in this day and age.
It is only fair that I make clear, since you have apparent problems at discerning what my previous posts here were actually about, that in the following post I will make certain fun of you, your intelligence and probably have the occational sarcastic potshot at your expense. This is all in good humor, because you react in a sort of generic way a typical anglophone would, coocooned in a safe and warm anglosphere to my suggestion that Gibraltar will be united again with Spain. It's not your fault, but you do deserve the following.

***

What I adore about the anglo-fascists is the apparently endless supply of new outraged ones. Some outraged because of political correctness, some because surely this is all ancient history and with each passing year Gibraltar moves farther away from Spain. I mean surely, it must be somewhere in the Pacific right about now Out of sight, out of mind and all that. Certainly the 6.5 sq km that form the norther part of the Gibraltar Straits are not still attached to Iberia. Surely.

Some of course think heretage is something to either be ashamed of or at least is best left not discussed in public. This is I fear, not a special trait of the anglophones, but rather of socialst leaning people around the world. Usually they are too busy backtalking religion, but they can always take five from that to take simple-minded potshots at those who display an ounce of knowledge of their national heritage. All that became so last century after Lenin came along.

Some are just anglo-fascists and secretely rather proud of the little stamp-sized territories the UK still holds. Gibraltar included. Meanwhile back in reality the empire has long since crumbled and those territories show just how what a sad and senile condition it really is in.

Then there are some twits from America who pick up the glove for the ex-empire in an moral outrage because err.. let's see:

1. That you wouldn't support secession of a city *today* as if today matters any more than yesterday or tomorrow. Such simian logic aside, that was not my point. My point was that like the inhabitants of this imagined city, the inhabitants of Gibraltar are not sovreign. They, in this day and age, don't have a say any more than the citizens of the imagened city. Although it would be most pleasing to stop hearing yamming about how ill treated the not 28 thousand inhabitants are because they aren't listened to, I'm not holding my breath. Why people think the inhabitants of a territory should have a say about a land they are not a part of, but rather stewards of, I do not know. They are British citizens and Gibraltar is not a part of Britain. You follow? There is no such thing a Gibraltar-citizen. There is no nation of Gibraltar. You know this?

2. It has been over 300 years since the British occupied Gibraltar. Wow.. that's like older than the United States. Surely that must be so old it doesn't even matter any more. Well here's some news for any American dip-ahem-it who thinks 300 years is a long time for Europe. From the sixteenth century until the 20th century various European powers, Britain among them, held colonies all over the world. For more than 400 years in some cases. These were fully fledged and profitable colonies, undisputed for four centuries. From 1262 to 1944 Iceland was a territory of Norway and Denmark. 700 years passed before Iceland regained independence and sovreignty. In Europe 300 years is nothing.

3. Pride of a nation's/country's heritage is the reason for people getting killed, so we shouldn't - as you so eloquently put it - excercise "this type of ancestral claim to land lost generations ago", because it is stupid blah blah. A pride for a nation or claiming ancestral heritage is not just history. It is the present. That is what we do every day and that is what makes a country. Every American, like yourself, makes an ancestral claim that this country you live in is indeed the USA. That's how you identify yourself as an American, it is nothing but an ancestral claim.

4. The ignorant and wholly inappropriate claim that Spain has any special fascist tendency, thus the claim of Gibraltar is simply yet another attempt to invoke fascism and nationalism in Spain and that the natural thing would be to throw every current inhabitant of Gibraltar off the rock and into the hungry sea. Let the sharks sort them out and all that. Well, this is somewhat ironic, because it was the British that did the ethnic cleansing when they occupied Gibraltar to begin with. Futhermore, while Spain did succumb to a fascist regime for a few decades in the 20th century there is no history of authoritarian government. So like so many protected by the comfortable closed anglospheric world, you are talking out of your nether regions.

Well, that seemed to be the gist of your outrage, zeeb. I'm sure you could whip up a couple more if you were so inclined, but they'd all be some versions of socialism, godlessness and contempt for nations and history. Or just that the mental hurdle of 300 years is too much for you, since back then Native Americans owned your country and if you'd recognize the idea that history existed back then, well you'd be giving them a mighty fine incentive to demand their land back. Don't worry about that. They won't, you've destroyed them in ethnic cleansings, lies and oblitteration of their pride. The Spanish people however have always prevailed, even against massive invasions.

Remember it took the Spanish people more than 700 years to kick the last Moor out of Iberia and you dare to claim that 300 years of British stewardship of a few square km means anything to us? What rot. This is Europe, where the history comes from.

V
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Apr 3, 2007, 09:50 PM
 
Originally Posted by voodoo View Post
It is only fair that I make clear, since you have apparent problems at discerning what my previous posts here were actually about, that in the following post I will make certain fun of you, your intelligence and probably have the occational sarcastic potshot at your expense. This is all in good humor, because you react in a sort of generic way a typical anglophone would, coocooned in a safe and warm anglosphere to my suggestion that Gibraltar will be united again with Spain. It's not your fault, but you do deserve the following.
Go ahead, I don't take this sh*t seriously and I don't know you personally--I don't mind and shall pay you the same favor.

Originally Posted by voodoo View Post
What I adore about the anglo-fascists is the apparently endless supply of new outraged ones. Some outraged because of political correctness, some because surely this is all ancient history and with each passing year Gibraltar moves farther away from Spain. I mean surely, it must be somewhere in the Pacific right about now Out of sight, out of mind and all that. Certainly the 6.5 sq km that form the norther part of the Gibraltar Straits are not still attached to Iberia. Surely.
I don't even know what you're saying here and as far as I can tell its mostly nationalist babble.

Originally Posted by voodoo View Post
Some of course think heretage is something to either be ashamed of or at least is best left not discussed in public. This is I fear, not a special trait of the anglophones, but rather of socialst leaning people around the world. Usually they are too busy backtalking religion, but they can always take five from that to take simple-minded potshots at those who display an ounce of knowledge of their national heritage. All that became so last century after Lenin came along.
...the nationalist babble continues.

Originally Posted by voodoo View Post
Some are just anglo-fascists and secretely rather proud of the little stamp-sized territories the UK still holds. Gibraltar included. Meanwhile back in reality the empire has long since crumbled and those territories show just how what a sad and senile condition it really is in.
Are we talking about the old British empire or Gibraltar? I'm confused.

Originally Posted by voodoo View Post
Then there are some twits from America who pick up the glove for the ex-empire in an moral outrage because err.. let's see:

1. That you wouldn't support secession of a city *today* as if today matters any more than yesterday or tomorrow. Such simian logic aside, that was not my point. My point was that like the inhabitants of this imagined city, the inhabitants of Gibraltar are not sovreign. They, in this day and age, don't have a say any more than the citizens of the imagened city. Although it would be most pleasing to stop hearing yamming about how ill treated the not 28 thousand inhabitants are because they aren't listened to, I'm not holding my breath. Why people think the inhabitants of a territory should have a say about a land they are not a part of, but rather stewards of, I do not know. They are British citizens and Gibraltar is not a part of Britain. You follow? There is no such thing a Gibraltar-citizen. There is no nation of Gibraltar. You know this?
I'm not saying, nor did I ever say that Gibraltar is recognized sovereign state. However, they have been separated from Spain --for that 300 years that seems like yesterday to you. Ok, so there's a treaty which gives you back your prize if Gibraltar separates from Britain. When that happens, have a party--it shouldn't take more than 300 more years or so. To you, that's a very short time according to what you say about European standards of time.

Originally Posted by voodoo View Post
2. It has been over 300 years since the British occupied Gibraltar. Wow.. that's like older than the United States. Surely that must be so old it doesn't even matter any more. Well here's some news for any American dip-ahem-it who thinks 300 years is a long time for Europe. From the sixteenth century until the 20th century various European powers, Britain among them, held colonies all over the world. For more than 400 years in some cases. These were fully fledged and profitable colonies, undisputed for four centuries. From 1262 to 1944 Iceland was a territory of Norway and Denmark. 700 years passed before Iceland regained independence and sovreignty. In Europe 300 years is nothing.
As far as I can tell, this paragraph has no point whatsoever except perhaps as an inaccurate history lesson.

Originally Posted by voodoo View Post
3. Pride of a nation's/country's heritage is the reason for people getting killed, so we shouldn't - as you so eloquently put it - excercise "this type of ancestral claim to land lost generations ago", because it is stupid blah blah. A pride for a nation or claiming ancestral heritage is not just history. It is the present. That is what we do every day and that is what makes a country. Every American, like yourself, makes an ancestral claim that this country you live in is indeed the USA. That's how you identify yourself as an American, it is nothing but an ancestral claim.
Once again, it matters what happens to my country TODAY--in this age. So many people living in different places in the world could theoretically have ancestral claims here and there. A given territory can have multiple, ancestral claims at once. Thank god they are not all nationalists like you or the fighting would never end.

Originally Posted by voodoo View Post
4. The ignorant and wholly inappropriate claim that Spain has any special fascist tendency, thus the claim of Gibraltar is simply yet another attempt to invoke fascism and nationalism in Spain and that the natural thing would be to throw every current inhabitant of Gibraltar off the rock and into the hungry sea. Let the sharks sort them out and all that.
Uh, your country had a dictator until 1975. THAT wasn't 300 years ago.
     
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Apr 3, 2007, 10:48 PM
 
Originally Posted by Zeeb View Post
Go ahead, I don't take this sh*t seriously and I don't know you personally--I don't mind and shall pay you the same favor.
Not at all, I'm at mercy to your certainly razor wit and creativity.

I don't even know what you're saying here and as far as I can tell its mostly nationalist babble.
It can hardly be fault of mine you cannot discern meaning in plain English sentences. It comes as no surprise that anglofascist leftist doesn't understand what I am writing about. That would have to mean thinking outside the box, or in this case, outside the sphere.

...the nationalist babble continues.
As I suspected, I am at the whim of the master of wit himself. How can one argue with such champion of eloquence?

Are we talking about the old British empire or Gibraltar? I'm confused.
Don't worry, your confusion was already apparent when you mentioned "I don't even know what you're saying here", it is duly noted. Allow me to illuminate for you. Ahem.

Meanwhile back in reality the empire (note the singular) has long since crumbled and those territories (note the plural) show just how what a sad and senile condition it really is in (again note the singular).

No word left to chance. It is as written and if read with at least passing concentration, makes perfect sense.

I'm not saying, nor did I ever say that Gibraltar is recognized sovereign state.
You indicate as much when you make the suggestion that the voice of the inhabitants of Gibraltar should have a final or even any influence in what should be done with that land. Sovreignty isn't a fashionable word I like to write to get people such as yourself to pick up a dictionary, it is the crux of the matter.

However, they have been separated from Spain --for that 300 years that seems like yesterday to you.
Hardly, but the time of 300 years is not very impressive. In Europe time is older than you are perhaps used to and land is sacred. Especially when it has been bled for and defended for thousands of years by the inhabitants of Iberia, to be held for 300 years by Britain of all things? This is the northern part of the Gibraltar Strait, which Spain also has claim for. Moral and historical, which is why Spain holds Ceuta still. It would be most fortunate for all parties if Spain would get Gibraltar back and Ceuta could be returned to Morrocco. But then, why should Spain do that? We've had Ceuta for more than 350 years. Yet Morrocco claims Ceuta and were it not for Gibraltar being still held by the senile empire, it could be theirs.

Ok, so there's a treaty which gives you back your prize if Gibraltar separates from Britain.
Yes, indeed. Which is why Gibraltar can never become anything else than it is. It cannot be given or sold to anyone, not even the current inhabitants. This is also at the core of the matter. I'm pleased you took some time to familiarize yourself with the legal situation.

When that happens, have a party--it shouldn't take more than 300 more years or so. To you, that's a very short time according to what you say about European standards of time.
Heh, if it is another 300 years that it takes, the so be it. The sooner, the better of course, but you'd be misjudging the Spanish people very much if you thought in 300 years they will have forgotten about Gibraltar. They waited more than 700 years for it the last time.

As far as I can tell, this paragraph has no point whatsoever except perhaps as an inaccurate history lesson.
I shall call you on that. What was even remotely inaccurate in that recant of European history? I mentioned the following:

1. That the occupation of Gibraltar is older than the Unites States, which were founded in 1776, while Gibraltar was occupied in 1704. - true, no? Of course it is.

2. That from the 16th century to the 20th century - or about 400 years - various European countries (Britain among them) held colonies, which they then gave up. Despite 'all that time'. True, no? Of course it is.

3. From 1262 to 1944 Iceland was a territory of Norway and Denmark. Almost 700 years. True, no? Of course it is.

So. Where is the inaccurate history lesson in that? Flinging out accusations is easy, now back them up.

Once again, it matters what happens to my country TODAY--in this age. So many people living in different places in the world could theoretically have ancestral claims here and there.
Yes, I mentioned the Native Americans as possible candidates for that. Thus, I can understand why Americans in general would like to dismiss and erase all historical claims that are about, you know, 200-ish years old or older.

Self serving nationalism. Nothing wrong with it as such, but it would be wise to keep that to yourself. If we here were to erase our history before the 18th century we wouldn't be what we are today. I'm sorry but it does matter what happened more than 300 years ago in Europe, even if that time would be best forgotten for the Americans of today.

A given territory can have multiple, ancestral claims at once. Thank god they are not all nationalists like you or the fighting would never end.
Nationalist.. you'll have to define that. Is a patriot a nationalist? Is one who is aware of one's country's history a nationalist? Is one who is proud of one's country a nationalist? I am all that, so am I a nationalist?

If so, then there are very very many nationalists in the world. The American declaration of independence was from a nationalistic movement, don't you know. The freedom of the Irish republic was a nationalistic movement, as was the independance and sovreignty of Iceland in the mid 20th century. Nationalism has been alive and well for many centuries and has shaped the world and continues to do so. Sometimes violently, sometimes without a drop of blood being shed.

Being against the idea of nationalism must then to be against nations and the identity of nations, no? As if there is nothing wrong with being nationalistic, most people are. Fiercly so, as can be seen every four years in the FIFA World Cup.

Don't try to reprimand me for showing pride in my country (or countries as the case may be), I am and so are most people. Save for the socialists, they dream of the united world without borders and without God. Perhaps you lean in that direction, but I do not.

Nor am I sympathetic to violence or fascism. I don't know why so many people think that the only logical way to regain Gibraltar is attack it. Count on it, that will not become necessary.

Uh, your country had a dictator until 1975. THAT wasn't 300 years ago.
No, but it was for a brief period in history and now we have a more modern democracy than either the UK or the US. So in that brief time Spain surpassed these lighthouses of democracy. Well done there. Do you even know who the fascists were fighting in the Spanish revolutionary war? Spain almost became a communist country, but as fate would have it the coin landed on the fascist side that time. It wasn't a decisive victory and the war was a close one.

Trust me (or not and look it up), there was no particular love for them among roughly half the nation. They just lost the war. Like it would be foolish for me to think that Americans are all insane Evangelicals who talk to Jesus just because Americans voted for Bush twice. I know roughly half of Americans are nothing like that. 49% or so. Am I wrong to think this?

So, no it wasn't 300 years ago Franco ruled Spain, but then again it doesn't matter much. It was one man, one ruler for a few decades who narrowly won the socialist movement in all out civil war. As soon as Franco was dead Spain was declared a democracy. That's all the fascism that existed in Spain in the 20th century. It is no secret, but you can't really milk it for more than it is worth.

V
( Last edited by voodoo; Apr 3, 2007 at 10:56 PM. )
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Apr 4, 2007, 03:09 AM
 
Originally Posted by voodoo View Post
Not at all, I'm at mercy to your certainly razor wit and creativity.



It can hardly be fault of mine you cannot discern meaning in plain English sentences. It comes as no surprise that anglofascist leftist doesn't understand what I am writing about. That would have to mean thinking outside the box, or in this case, outside the sphere.



As I suspected, I am at the whim of the master of wit himself. How can one argue with such champion of eloquence?



Don't worry, your confusion was already apparent when you mentioned "I don't even know what you're saying here", it is duly noted. Allow me to illuminate for you. Ahem.

Meanwhile back in reality the empire (note the singular) has long since crumbled and those territories (note the plural) show just how what a sad and senile condition it really is in (again note the singular).

No word left to chance. It is as written and if read with at least passing concentration, makes perfect sense.



You indicate as much when you make the suggestion that the voice of the inhabitants of Gibraltar should have a final or even any influence in what should be done with that land. Sovreignty isn't a fashionable word I like to write to get people such as yourself to pick up a dictionary, it is the crux of the matter.



Hardly, but the time of 300 years is not very impressive. In Europe time is older than you are perhaps used to and land is sacred. Especially when it has been bled for and defended for thousands of years by the inhabitants of Iberia, to be held for 300 years by Britain of all things? This is the northern part of the Gibraltar Strait, which Spain also has claim for. Moral and historical, which is why Spain holds Ceuta still. It would be most fortunate for all parties if Spain would get Gibraltar back and Ceuta could be returned to Morrocco. But then, why should Spain do that? We've had Ceuta for more than 350 years. Yet Morrocco claims Ceuta and were it not for Gibraltar being still held by the senile empire, it could be theirs.



Yes, indeed. Which is why Gibraltar can never become anything else than it is. It cannot be given or sold to anyone, not even the current inhabitants. This is also at the core of the matter. I'm pleased you took some time to familiarize yourself with the legal situation.



Heh, if it is another 300 years that it takes, the so be it. The sooner, the better of course, but you'd be misjudging the Spanish people very much if you thought in 300 years they will have forgotten about Gibraltar. They waited more than 700 years for it the last time.



I shall call you on that. What was even remotely inaccurate in that recant of European history? I mentioned the following:

1. That the occupation of Gibraltar is older than the Unites States, which were founded in 1776, while Gibraltar was occupied in 1704. - true, no? Of course it is.

2. That from the 16th century to the 20th century - or about 400 years - various European countries (Britain among them) held colonies, which they then gave up. Despite 'all that time'. True, no? Of course it is.

3. From 1262 to 1944 Iceland was a territory of Norway and Denmark. Almost 700 years. True, no? Of course it is.

So. Where is the inaccurate history lesson in that? Flinging out accusations is easy, now back them up.



Yes, I mentioned the Native Americans as possible candidates for that. Thus, I can understand why Americans in general would like to dismiss and erase all historical claims that are about, you know, 200-ish years old or older.

Self serving nationalism. Nothing wrong with it as such, but it would be wise to keep that to yourself. If we here were to erase our history before the 18th century we wouldn't be what we are today. I'm sorry but it does matter what happened more than 300 years ago in Europe, even if that time would be best forgotten for the Americans of today.



Nationalist.. you'll have to define that. Is a patriot a nationalist? Is one who is aware of one's country's history a nationalist? Is one who is proud of one's country a nationalist? I am all that, so am I a nationalist?

If so, then there are very very many nationalists in the world. The American declaration of independence was from a nationalistic movement, don't you know. The freedom of the Irish republic was a nationalistic movement, as was the independance and sovreignty of Iceland in the mid 20th century. Nationalism has been alive and well for many centuries and has shaped the world and continues to do so. Sometimes violently, sometimes without a drop of blood being shed.

Being against the idea of nationalism must then to be against nations and the identity of nations, no? As if there is nothing wrong with being nationalistic, most people are. Fiercly so, as can be seen every four years in the FIFA World Cup.

Don't try to reprimand me for showing pride in my country (or countries as the case may be), I am and so are most people. Save for the socialists, they dream of the united world without borders and without God. Perhaps you lean in that direction, but I do not.

Nor am I sympathetic to violence or fascism. I don't know why so many people think that the only logical way to regain Gibraltar is attack it. Count on it, that will not become necessary.



No, but it was for a brief period in history and now we have a more modern democracy than either the UK or the US. So in that brief time Spain surpassed these lighthouses of democracy. Well done there. Do you even know who the fascists were fighting in the Spanish revolutionary war? Spain almost became a communist country, but as fate would have it the coin landed on the fascist side that time. It wasn't a decisive victory and the war was a close one.

Trust me (or not and look it up), there was no particular love for them among roughly half the nation. They just lost the war. Like it would be foolish for me to think that Americans are all insane Evangelicals who talk to Jesus just because Americans voted for Bush twice. I know roughly half of Americans are nothing like that. 49% or so. Am I wrong to think this?

So, no it wasn't 300 years ago Franco ruled Spain, but then again it doesn't matter much. It was one man, one ruler for a few decades who narrowly won the socialist movement in all out civil war. As soon as Franco was dead Spain was declared a democracy. That's all the fascism that existed in Spain in the 20th century. It is no secret, but you can't really milk it for more than it is worth.

V
Just a suggestion...

You seem like your trying to justify your arguments to people who already agree with you (i.e. yourself). I'm very interested in hearing both sides of this argument but it seeme like all that comes from your side is nationalist statements, insults for disagreeing with you, and conclusions that you can't conclusively and logically draw from the facts at hand.

In other words, I haven't seen an argument thats going to change my, or anyone else's mind about the issue.

I ask that you give solid basis for the claims you are making. "Trust me" and "you aren't very smart if you think Spain doesn't deserve this" don't really do it for me.

Other then geographic location, and centuries old ancestral claims....what evidence supports Spain's reacquisition of Gibralter?
     
 
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