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You are here: MacNN Forums > Community > MacNN Lounge > Political/War Lounge > Where are the guts from the British Government?

Where are the guts from the British Government? (Page 3)
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voodoo
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Apr 4, 2007, 03:50 AM
 
Originally Posted by Snow-i View Post
Just a suggestion...
Thanks for your suggestions, however I have said my piece. If I have insulted anyone, I offer my apologies. It was meant as a slap in the face for offering the usual socialistic/anglosphere excuses. I've heard them all a million times and they serve only to distract from the real problem.

I've gone through the issues, and I don't think anyone doubts why Spain wants Gibraltar back, but some may still be curious as to why these quaint Spaniards aren't just content and happy that the UK holds a land on their peninsula.

I've tried analogies, I've tried to explain the history and the legal rights Spain has to Gibraltar. I've explained how giving Gibraltar back to Spain would benefit Europe as a whole - while in a small way, in the long run it would be more beneficial than having Spanish territories in Africa.

Now, whether a minor inconvenience of 27 thousand-ish settlers is more important than that of an entire country or even the continent as a whole is important enough to stop Gibraltar from rejoining Spain at the moment is the question posed as if that matters any. This is not some ambigous colony, this is part of Spain that was taken. Of all the places Britain has invaded and occupied, this one should have been the first one they should have returned to the rightful owner. Their tardiness is strange, if one doesn't take into account the centuries long animosity between the Spanish crown and the British crown.

When the monarchy of each country faded away, they found themselves again at odds with each other. It hasn't really been the time to return Gibraltar until now, when both countries are friendly democracies that don't care to hold out unnecessary territories or colonies.

However, Gibraltar with its 27 thousand inhabitants isn't important as it was for the UK, but the people who live there do enjoy a tax-haven which they use to attract wealthy bank accounts to further themselves. Much like the Isle of Man and I'm sure the inhabitants of Gibraltar would be trying for sovreignity like the inhabitants of the Isle of Man if they could. However, this is not possible at all in Gibraltar, while theoretically it could be done in a place like the Isle of Man. This is due to the treaty of Utrecht which was made between the crowns of Spain and Britain, where it was stated that if Britain would ever relinquish Gibraltar and/or Menorca then Spain would get them back.

Menorca has already been returned (in 1802) after being captured in 1708. Gibraltar has hitherto not been returned, while being even more than Menorca a part of Spain. Asides from the recorded animosity between the crowns, Gibraltar was a strategic location, the entrance into the Mediterranean, for centuries. Now, it is not so important for the navy or military. The times have changed.

Thus, in light of current friendship between Spain and the UK and peaceful times in the Mediterranean, now is the time to return Gibraltar for the UK, as Gibraltar serves no purpose for them any more. While incredibly egoistic to keep Gibraltar for their own purposes, it is understandable and I'm sure everyone is prepared to forgive and forget. Ever since Spain lost Gibraltar, she has wanted it back.

There are three hurdles that I can see, primarily it is the economic powers of Gibraltar that lobby the UK (spineless) government to refrain from releasing Gibraltar, second the noise the few people that live there currently will make if such a decision would be made by the UK and finally the injured national pride of the average Brit. The last bit could always be mended by a smooth politician and the second item could always be mended by a smart politician. Asides from the obvious problem of finding both qualities in a British politician, it still leaves the money thing unresolved.

Were Gibraltar to return to Spain it's tax-haven status would end, sooner or later. The people would of course be able to live there and become Spanish citizens should they choose to become that, however since this is all within the EU, that isn't strictly necessary for them.

I see nothing wrong with mentioning nationalism, heretage and history when discussing reasons for Gibraltar to rejoin Spain because they are also good reasons and without them there would perhaps be no discussion of this. Perhaps you did not know this, but every single government of Spain has requested to get Gibraltar since democracy was installed again after Franco. There has, is and will be constant pressure on the UK to relinquish Gibraltar until they do.

It would be the right thing to do for all parties, politically and economically, for the long run. This situation causes friction and displeasure between the two countries. It also erodes a certain necessity in modern western society. The self awareness as a part of a whole. Call it nationalism, I call it patriotism and right now it is much needed in Europe. We are under siege from other cultures and we need to regather and concentrate on who we are.

This is part of that process. The erosion of national identity can prove to be disasterous for Spain and indeed Europe. We are the gateway to muslim Africa and we need all the national identity and patriotism we can get.

V
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Apr 4, 2007, 04:33 AM
 
Would this be a bad time to bring up the Spanish invasion of the Basque country and the need to relinquish claim to it, as per the residents' wishes?
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Apr 4, 2007, 05:21 AM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
Would this be a bad time to bring up the Spanish invasion of the Basque country and the need to relinquish claim to it, as per the residents' wishes?
Not at all Doofy,

They are the Texas of Spain. Seriously though, what invasion are you referring to? The Basque country has been part of Spanish kingdoms as long as Spanish kingdoms have existed. Remember, Spain is a union of autonomous kingdoms.

Think of it as a very early version of the USA. The Basque country has been part of this union for the longest time and wasn't forced into it by invasion. It was their choice at the time, although they existed as the kingdom of Navarra for the most part. Much of Navarra and the País Vasco has been fought over between Spain and France, but there has never been such a thing as a 'Spanish invasion into the Basque country'.

I just hope for your sake that it will be easier for the UK to secede from the EU, than it is for the Basque country to secede from the Spanish union. Though I suspect the opposite is true.

Do go on though, I'm all ears.

V
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Apr 4, 2007, 05:25 AM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
Would this be a bad time to bring up the Spanish invasion of the Basque country and the need to relinquish claim to it, as per the residents' wishes?
Let's also not forget that most of the countries Britain left and gave independence to are more prosperous today than the nations Spain invaded. Britain abolished slavery and attacked nations that continued to practice slavery, nations like France, Spain and Portugal who were unwilling to give it up. African slaves were kept on islands in the Mediterranean such as Gibraltar which served as outposts and prisons, and were liberated by the British Royal Navy.

And which Western European nation was the last to become a democracy?

Spain's record for human rights doesn't look very bright at all. They don't have anything to offer to Gibraltarians. Well, maybe bull fighting, hang chicken chopping and chucking donkeys from church belfries. Why the hell do they do that?

http://www.faace.co.uk/bfiestas.htm

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Apr 4, 2007, 05:39 AM
 
Originally Posted by voodoo View Post
Think of it as a very early version of the USA. The Basque country has been part of this union for the longest time and wasn't forced into it by invasion. It was their choice at the time
Much like it was Spain's choice to give us Gibraltar, at the time?


Dude, give it up. You have more chance of the Italians learning how to control their emotions than you have of the UK giving Gibraltar back to you.

And who cares anyways?
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Apr 4, 2007, 06:51 AM
 
Originally Posted by Aron Peterson View Post
They don't have anything to offer to Gibraltarians. Well, maybe bull fighting, hang chicken chopping and chucking donkeys from church belfries. Why the hell do they do that?
Because you can't get bulls up into belfries and chicken fighting is just silly.


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Apr 4, 2007, 08:23 AM
 
President Iammadjustmad is giving a live speech right now. He's opening his speech talking about God, one god, pray to god, god is watching, Moses did that, Adam did this, remember that guy Abraham, Jesus was crucified, yadda yadda. It's going to be a while before he talks about the world today or anything relevant or honest.
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Apr 4, 2007, 09:30 AM
 
Originally Posted by Aron Peterson View Post
President Iammadjustmad is giving a live speech right now. He's opening his speech talking about God, one god, pray to god, god is watching, Moses did that, Adam did this, remember that guy Abraham, Jesus was crucified, yadda yadda. It's going to be a while before he talks about the world today or anything relevant or honest.
This is a lose lose for Iran. Blair said 48hrs. Look for them to be released
     
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Apr 4, 2007, 09:35 AM
 
he said they're to be released, which is good news all round I think.
     
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Apr 4, 2007, 10:02 AM
 
Originally Posted by Orion27 View Post
This is a lose lose for Iran. Blair said 48hrs. Look for them to be released
Wasn't it more of a win win for Iran?

Iran got free publicity for a good two weeks

Filmed enough propaganda go keep this going for atleast another month

Pushed up the price of oil

Made Britain and the US look stupid.

They really couldn't have been luckier.
     
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Apr 4, 2007, 10:28 AM
 
Originally Posted by Nicko View Post
Wasn't it more of a win win for Iran?
Filmed enough propaganda go keep this going for atleast another month
Pushed up the price of oil
It's a win because Iran and their agents in Iraq continue to push the price of oil up. But then again western companies benefit from the chaos caused by Islamists as much as middle eastern regimes do.

It's a loss for Iran because their leader's propaganda and acting today made them look even more double-faced, cowardly, parasitic and backwards.

And Britain won all the way. The government held on to their beliefs, played it cool and didn't fall into Iran's desire to have a major war of words and show of fists. Those Iranian agents in Iraq will also remain in detention.
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Apr 4, 2007, 10:56 AM
 
I noticed a few detained Iranians were released from Iraq.
The accumulated list of missing Iranians inspires claims that a double standard exists in the stand-off over the 15 Britons.
I suppose all these detained Iranians were just vacationing in Iraq?

So were the Brits actually in Irananian waters?
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Apr 4, 2007, 12:11 PM
 
Originally Posted by Sky Captain View Post
I suppose all these detained Iranians were just vacationing in Iraq?
1. Causing chaos to keep the price of oil up.
2. Forcing the Coalition to stay around longer so that the West will continue to take greater blame for the violence.
3. By keeping Western soldiers in Iraq they not only cause discontent in the West but also increased distrust between elected politicans and citizens in the US/UK, while at the same time playing the victim card.

The terrorism industry is clever. They seek greater chaos everywhere because it masks their activities in the arms trade, oil industry, kidnapping, extortion, smuggling, theft and drugs.

So were the Brits actually in Irananian waters?
Nope. Those illiterate 60 year old Revolutionary Guards who were given medals today had no idea that something called GPS exists. When those old crustys who rule Iran found out technology like that exists they knew they had little time left to keep the naval officers. Today's conference was about trying to make little ol' Iran look compassionate and peace loving.
( Last edited by Aron Peterson; Apr 5, 2007 at 09:55 AM. )
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Apr 4, 2007, 12:15 PM
 
Hmmm.
Perhaps the next event won't end so peacfully.
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Apr 4, 2007, 12:32 PM
 
I think the RN will be re-evaluating its procedures, then again a similar thing happened in 2004.

Sticking guys out there, in little boats; with intermittent air cover is daft, even dafter given it happened before. Personally I'd refuse to put guys out there without proper support. Then again during the Falklands we sent an entire taskforce without AWACS.

Anyway, Iran has done the right thing, and doesn't seem to have harmed the sailors/RMs. Unlike last time where they conducted mock executions etc
( Last edited by moodymonster; Apr 4, 2007 at 12:35 PM. Reason: added bit about Falklands)
     
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Apr 4, 2007, 12:59 PM
 
Britain may have been testing the waters, so to say.
Seeing just how far Iran is willing to go.
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Don Pickett
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Apr 4, 2007, 05:03 PM
 
Has anyone pointed out that it seems Iran has gotten very good at small boat tactics? That means a lot in a space as confined as the Gulf.
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Apr 4, 2007, 11:52 PM
 
Originally Posted by typoon View Post
WHAT!? Is Blair really this wimpy? He should be doing anything and everything to get these soldiers back. Is Blair really that dense that he Doesn't "know why the Iranian regime keeps doing this?" He should be knocking out the Iranian Navy and demanding the troops back or more of the Iranian ships would be destroyed. He needs to take a stronger stance than this.
And typoon is proven wrong yet again.

Originally Posted by smacintush
I don't WANT WWIII, I don't WANT any war, but let's face it a large scale conventional war IS something that we and our allies still know how to do and do "well". Ultimately it may be unavoidable.
But I guess smacintush takes the prize.
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Apr 5, 2007, 12:13 AM
 
Originally Posted by Don Pickett View Post
Has anyone pointed out that it seems Iran has gotten very good at small boat tactics? That means a lot in a space as confined as the Gulf.
Do not fear. GWB has legions of swift-boaters at his command.
     
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Apr 5, 2007, 04:25 PM
 
All men are created equal, but what they do after that point puts them on a sliding scale.
     
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Apr 5, 2007, 04:28 PM
 
Originally Posted by Sky Captain View Post
     
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Apr 5, 2007, 05:31 PM
 
The UK's intention was to get their people home, this was achieved without a shot being fired. Which... is good.

Back in 2000 some Royal Irish Rangers were kidnapped in Sierra Leone. The UK realised this would not be resolved peacefully and went in to get them, violently. Operation Barras - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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Apr 5, 2007, 09:33 PM
 
Originally Posted by moodymonster View Post
The UK's intention was to get their people home, this was achieved without a shot being fired. Which... is good.
But sexually/militarily ungratifying.
     
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Apr 6, 2007, 05:00 AM
 
Originally Posted by Aron Peterson View Post
It's a win because Iran and their agents in Iraq continue to push the price of oil up. But then again western companies benefit from the chaos caused by Islamists as much as middle eastern regimes do.

It's a loss for Iran because their leader's propaganda and acting today made them look even more double-faced, cowardly, parasitic and backwards.
Not at all. Ahmadinejad has played this one wonderfully: First, arrest them for violating your borders. Then, get them all to admit they violation on television, which of course is broadcast all across the Arabian world, and which also makes it obvious that these prisoners are being treated well (they were smiling IIRC). And then come off as the generous and big-hearted benefactor by not only releasing them without being directly threatened, but even giving them farewell presents - sweets, books, and the like, while getting them to publicly thank Ahmadinejad, all arranged and filmed for TV. And then, get Blair on TV insisting that there has been absolutely no secret arrangement or benefits for Iran (so the release really is pure good will - even the British say so!).

Ahmadinejad's a lying crook and a dangerous man, but you gotta admire his cojones and his smarts.

What a PR stunt!
     
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Apr 6, 2007, 10:25 AM
 
Originally Posted by analogika View Post
Ahmadinejad's a lying crook and a dangerous man, but you gotta admire his cojones and his smarts.

What a PR stunt!
If you're watching the crew speak live on TV right now you'll see how Iran lost even more face, badly.
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Apr 6, 2007, 10:35 AM
 
Originally Posted by Aron Peterson View Post
And which Western European nation was the last to become a democracy?
I'm quite certain the Vatican still isn't.
     
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Apr 6, 2007, 10:40 AM
 
Originally Posted by Sky Captain View Post
Ah yes, back when the U.S. was still good buddies with Saddam...the good ole days.
     
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Apr 6, 2007, 10:47 AM
 
Originally Posted by Aron Peterson View Post
If you're watching the crew speak live on TV right now you'll see how Iran lost even more face, badly.
I don't get US tv, but Iran hasn't lost face anywhere that matters. The Brits will twist this to look good for them, but anywhere Arab, the opposite is the case.
     
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Apr 6, 2007, 11:15 AM
 
Iranians aren't arabs.

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Apr 6, 2007, 11:43 AM
 
Originally Posted by analogika View Post
I don't get US tv, but Iran hasn't lost face anywhere that matters. The Brits will twist this to look good for them, but anywhere Arab, the opposite is the case.
Britain hasn't twisted this affair. Today's conference with the crew was straight forward and honest and confirmed what was obvious.
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Apr 6, 2007, 11:45 AM
 
Originally Posted by pooka View Post
Iranians aren't arabs.
Well, anywhere Arab and in Iran, too. (thanks)

It is completely irrelevant what Britain thinks or what Aron thinks. They saw nothing that didn't confirm what they thought of Ahmadinejad before. They weren't the audience.
     
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Apr 6, 2007, 12:22 PM
 
Originally Posted by analogika View Post
Ah yes, back when the U.S. was still good buddies with Saddam...the good ole days.
And see what happens when you punch your buddy in the face.
(and this was under a policy CARTER implimented)
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Apr 6, 2007, 12:56 PM
 
Originally Posted by analogika View Post
Well, anywhere Arab and in Iran, too. (thanks)

It is completely irrelevant what Britain thinks or what Aron thinks. They saw nothing that didn't confirm what they thought of Ahmadinejad before. They weren't the audience.
I think you're underestimating the Arab and Farsi world. In Iraq a huge majority want the terrorists to stop screwing up their security because they know full well that it is them who are keeping the Coalition forces there. The problem is Iraqis can't speak out because they don't who among them could attack and kill a critic.

Iranians have it better. They are allowed to protest, and they do. During the kidnapping of the RN crewmen the hardliners in Iran organised a protest outside the British Embassy. Around 100 students turned up to make a noise.

Only a 100 hardline students. Two weeks earlier 20 times that number of Iranians held a protest against Amimadjustmadandbad holding up posters of him hanging upside down. Think about that.

The Iranian government has made a bigger fool of themselves than ever. Universally. Today, a day after the crewmen arrived home, Shi'ite forces in Iraq loyal to Iranian backed mullahs have launched an offensive against western and Iraqi forces because they are angry this kidnapping failed to embarrass the west.
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Apr 7, 2007, 08:13 AM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
Dude, give it up. You have more chance of the Italians learning how to control their emotions than you have of the UK giving Gibraltar back to you.

And who cares anyways?
Give you people a piece of our country? I think not.

V
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Apr 7, 2007, 11:27 AM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
Much like it was Spain's choice to give us Gibraltar, at the time?


Dude, give it up. You have more chance of the Italians learning how to control their emotions [etc]
While I'm on the subject, you mentioned a Spanish invasion into the Basque country. What are you talking about? I'm sure you're not going to claim better knowledge of Spanish history than me?

Not that I'm going to stop you, because for all I know you seem know a lot about the subject, at least you know about an invasion that historians seem unaware of. The Basque country became part of Spain like Navarra, Castilla y León, etc etc.

Although your sentiments towards Italians are right on the money (they are after all a nation suffering from emotional Tourette syndrome - and questionable sexuality to boot) I am inclined to doubt your motives regarding Gibraltar.

You, like myself, are quite proud of your country and not afraid to mention it. However, in this case it is misdirected. Gibraltar is not a part of the UK and never has been. It is a territory and as such merely a piece of property to be negotiated about. Not with.

I thought I wouldn't be the one to break this to you, but not all land is created equal. Gibraltar is no nation, no people and have no claim to such. Even if they had, they couldn't.

Finally, please don't call me dude. It reminds me of tooki. He called everyone 'dude' he was being patronizing with.

V
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Apr 9, 2007, 10:09 AM
 
The sun has truly set.
England is in a sad state when heroism is squashed.
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Apr 9, 2007, 11:28 AM
 
Originally Posted by Sky Captain View Post
The sun has truly set.
England is in a sad state when heroism is squashed.
That is sad, but it doesn't change the facts that the war in Iraq has been nothing but a boondogle of incompetence, misdirection and a misunderstanding of the region before the invasion began.
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Apr 9, 2007, 12:19 PM
 
Or so the MSM makes it out to be.
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Apr 9, 2007, 12:51 PM
 
Originally Posted by Sky Captain View Post
Or so the MSM makes it out to be.
You're right. That's why we have to keep enlarging our troop strength, to keep the electricity and water flowing less than before, and to keep the several million Iraqis who've fled the country (most of them the most educated) from fleeing, and to keep the streets from becoming even bigger craters, and to show how safe it is to walk in a Baghdad market, as long as you're accompanied by helicopter gunships and heavily armed soldiers and you're wearing body armor yourself, and to show how the once safe Green Zone isn't safe anymore. Yup, you're absolutely right.
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Apr 9, 2007, 01:02 PM
 
Should have leveled Bagadad then huh?
Don't give them a place to hide?

Reminds me of somewhere else....
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Apr 9, 2007, 01:32 PM
 
No, we shouldn't have gone there in the first place.
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Apr 9, 2007, 09:28 PM
 
Originally Posted by Sky Captain View Post
The sun has truly set.
England is in a sad state when heroism is squashed.
the article doesn't actually say why though - it opines.

Having said that, there is a very definitive bias in much of the BBC's output. During the Iraq war I didn't bother watching the BBC because it was unreal how biased it was against the war. There is also a lot of bad blood between the gov't and BBC.

It would be likely it would be picked up by one of the other channels, possibly Channel 4, who do tend to show a wide range of output eg 'Daily Show', followed by 'The great global warming swindle' (The Great Global Warming Swindle from Channel4.com). However I have heard that they stopped showing the 'Mark Thomas Product' (investigative comedian), when he set about exposing TV execs.
     
moodymonster
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Apr 9, 2007, 09:32 PM
 
( Last edited by moodymonster; Apr 9, 2007 at 09:32 PM. Reason: bone typing)
     
analogika
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Apr 10, 2007, 04:38 AM
 
That's because it tore quotes out of context, twisted them into the opposite meaning, and relied upon sources known to be big-oil-sponsored and/or of questionable integrity.

There was a big thread on that piece of shite earlier.
     
Aron Peterson
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Apr 10, 2007, 07:28 AM
 
Originally Posted by KarlG View Post
That is sad, but it doesn't change the facts that the war in Iraq has been nothing but a boondogle of incompetence, misdirection and a misunderstanding of the region before the invasion began.
A lot of that misdirection was coming from Iraqis who were later proven to be liars and had financial interests in war happening. That and they were pawns for a certain neighbour.
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OldManMac
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Apr 10, 2007, 10:28 AM
 
Originally Posted by Aron Peterson View Post
A lot of that misdirection was coming from Iraqis who were later proven to be liars and had financial interests in war happening. That and they were pawns for a certain neighbour.

And our president and his cronies no doubt went in with a pure heart, to give democracy to the people of Iraq.
Why is there always money for war, but none for education?
     
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Apr 10, 2007, 11:27 AM
 
Originally Posted by KarlG View Post
And our president and his cronies no doubt went in with a pure heart, to give democracy to the people of Iraq.
They're crusty old fools but they also have no choice for reasons too long-winded and complicated for internet discussion forums.
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Sky Captain
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Apr 10, 2007, 11:31 AM
 
Same sentiment in 1991?



But an analysis of the evidence it used shows the film was riddled with distortions and errors
Kinda like Bowling for Columbine and Farenheit 911?
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