[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by james9490

Any examples? I can use my Windows machine without hardly using my right button, but why should I have to do that while I can shortcut all the way with contextual menus?

Beside the point. If hidden UI = bad, then contextual menus = bad, because contextual menus are basically the definition of a hidden UI. There is no visual cue that you can bring up a contextual menu any more than there is a visual cue that you can right-click Mighty Mouse. Both are things you just have to know. So either hidden UI is not universally bad or contextual menus are bad.

In either case, QED.

[analogika]

Originally Posted by james9490

Oh, so according to your logic I guess nobody should have to learn how to drive a car in order to actually drive one since car should be easy to operate. No, you are so dead wrong that it's not even funny anymore.

Wait - didn't YOU just argue that all audio production software has a horrible interface?

And I pointed out that you don't know **** from shinola when talking about audio software (a point which was lost on you, since I made the mistake of abstracting it by talking about physical studio hardware requiring training).

And now you're saying that it's perfectly normal that one should require training, and that this is not indicative of bad interface?

It turns, it spins, and James, you've dug yourself into so many holes, daylight doesn't even see YOU.

[Chris O'Brien]

Originally Posted by james9490

Any examples? I can use my Windows machine without hardly using my right button, but why should I have to do that while I can shortcut all the way with contextual menus? Contextual menus increase productivity, and interestingly, Windows use it extensively. No wonder 99% of the world use Windows.

And I can just use keyboard shortcuts or contextual menus on my Mac... The point is, for people that know what they're doing contextual menus/shortcuts can make life a lot easier. But, a novice user != someone that knows all about their OS of choice. Your argument stumbles between your belligerence about how they can't figure out how to use a mouse but can be expected to use the 'advanced' features of the OS. Contextual menus may increase productivity, but surely we're talking about purely novice users?

And no, it's not 99% of the world that use Windows. Less than 99% of the world have used a computer.

Originally Posted by james9490

Well, you won't have to on Windows. There is a visible, clickable right button. You don't have to lift your finger to click the right button. Windows way wins.....

What does this have to do with Windows? Any mouse you use on your PC I can plug into my Mac and have it work - or my linux box. This is nothing to do with Windows, but whether the manufacturer of the mouse happens to put a standard button there or not.

Seriously, it's comments like that that make people get exasperated by you, hence all the posts you're taking offence at. Your love for Windows and trolling about it is far too blatant. You're obviously here on some sort of bet with your little friends. I mean, you can't really be being serious - I hope you're all having fun. It's a shame some people have risen to the bait.

The column view was covered, but I'll mention that the Dock is also not a Windows rip off. Take a look at NeXTstep. In fact, take a look at older operating systems in general, and you'll see how ideas have ebbed and flowed.

And please. Look at all the points addressing the second button on the MM. You have to know that it's there in the first place to be able to use it. You have to go and set it up. Are you trying to say that unless there's an outline of a button there, novice users are going to forget instantly? That's quite insulting. So, point: you know the button is there so you use it. If you don't (or don't care about it, or like using a single button) then you don't use it. Do you carefully inspect every mouse you use when you sit down to your computer? No. Memories are a wonderful thing, and novice users != goldfish. (I imagine this won't be the last time someone has to re-iterate this point to you).

Originally Posted by james9490

I tell you the truth: The problem with the Mac crowd is that they somehow expect everything to be just automatic. You can get that to a point but in reality it's technically impossible at the end. Take Plug & Play, for example. Yes, I can plug in a two-button mouse and it would work without my intervention but I still have to know what USB (or PS/2) is, what sort of devices can be plugged into, and so on. The right approach is this: Our education system must start teaching children how to use a PC, all the basic protocols and how that works (i.e. what "IP Address" is, where to find it, etc.) much like they started teaching kids how to type back in the old days when typewriters came out in the consumer market.

I like this. Most people who buy a computer will take a look at the specs, so they'll see it's got USB and/or PS/2. No? As for the 'what sort of devices can be plugged into it' - that appears to be another huge insult. Ever seen babies/toddlers playing with those wee sets where they have to put shapes through the correct holes? If I looked at the lead coming out of my USB mouse, and tried jamming it into my audio port, then I've got far more problems than just being a computer novice.

Be consistent. You give people amazing credit with their abilities in one point, and then make out they have the brain capacity of a banana depending on which crappy point you're trying to make.

But yeah, you're always going to need to learn something in order to use a computer - it just depends how far you want to go.

[badidea]

A discussion about the MightyMouse with the typical Mac user who only uses Internet, e-mail, iTunes...(like most of my friends with Macs - especially iBooks):

he: "What would I need a second button for?"
me: "Well, it's easier to access the contextual menu!"
he: "Contextual menu??? What's that?"
me: "Errr, the thing you can access with...errr..."
he: "What's it for?"
me: "Well, you can...blablabla...blablabla."
he: "Anything I can't do with keyboard shortcuts or the menu bar?"
me: "Errr, well, you can...install 3rd party....nevermind...!"
End of discussion

[Millennium]

Originally Posted by james9490

The end result? Users are stuck with Apple-endorced peripherals such as Mighty Mouse.

I can plug any USB mouse into my Mac, and it will work.

I can choose the best video card for various different situations, needs and budget...

...as can we, and we don't need drivers for basic functionality, because our platform uses real standards, not lock-in implementations.

I can choose the best wireless LAN card, sound card, etc. etc. via PCI/AGP slots.

As can we. You lose again.

Heck, I can even choose a case!

Why would you want to? No, seriously. It's a case, for crying out loud; it does nothing but contain the parts.

Wrong again. Apple stole the Taskbar idea and created the Dock.

Microsoft stole the idea from NeXT, which is now part of Apple. Actually, they stoll quite a lot of things from NeXT.

Windows has had something similar to Finder's Column View for years before Apple came up with the OS X. (i.e. Click on a folder in Windows Explorer's folder tree pane, and its content/preview appears in the right pane.)

You call that 'similar to Column View'?

Oh, so according to your logic I guess nobody should have to learn how to drive a car in order to actually drive one since car should be easy to operate. No, you are so dead wrong that it's not even funny anymore.

Computers are not cars. When you use your average PC and it crashes, nobody is at risk of dying.

I tell you the truth: The problem with the Mac crowd is that they somehow expect everything to be just automatic.

What you've described here is the common Mac philosophy of "It just works". And it does. That's because we don't tolerate makers who slack off and take the easy way out.

You can get that to a point but in reality it's technically impossible at the end. Take Plug & Play, for example. Yes, I can plug in a two-button mouse and it would work without my intervention but I still have to know what USB (or PS/2) is, what sort of devices can be plugged into, and so on.

Actually, since PS/2 ports don't exist on the Mac, you don't need to know about that. Any USB mouse of keyboard -by far the most common nowadays- will work.

The right approach is this: Our education system must start teaching children how to use a PC, all the basic protocols and how that works (i.e. what "IP Address" is, where to find it, etc.) much like they started teaching kids how to type back in the old days when typewriters came out in the consumer market.

Our education system should indeed teach basic computer literacy, but that doesn't mean computers should be unnecessarily difficult, as they are on Windows.

Just what "superior products" has Apple come up with anyway? Any new innovative software? I say, "NOTHING!!" Just one example: Before iTunes we had MusicMatch, which offered more features.

Allow me to turn the tables back on you: what "more features" did MusicMatch have?

We had Adobe Premiere before iMovie came out...

And these were targeted at completely different markets. How much does Premiere cost? How much does iMovie cost?

...and after it came out Microsoft released Windows Movie Maker which offered FAR more features and effects.

Such as...?

Your roommate's PC problem is an isolated incident, and it doesn't mean that all other PCs are going down.

His roommate's PC problem is the common case, not the isolated incident. How exactly is it that entire businesses, indeed, entire school districts, can go down in the face of a single worm on Windows? My wife's school district went down because they went with a Windows monoculture, and their technicians spent the better part of a year cleaning up the mess.

My professional guess is that he just didn't have his anti-virus software updated daily (you don't have to do it manually... his software would've done it automatically via scheduled update)...

Automatic updates are a problem. They require more trust than they deserve. Besides which, this deals with classes of problems which should never have existed, and would not have existed were it not for Microsoft's fundamentally-flawed models.

[sek929]

James...calling james... Is your brain on vacation or what?

My roomate is not an isolated incident, evry friend I've ever had with a PC is now experiencing the same problems (minus the few nerds that love to run spyware detection and close firewall ports and all that other nonesense I haven't had to think about for 7 years). In fact, I downloaded XP illegally and installed it on about 10 machines that came with WinME (worst softwarte ever created). Now the computers are usable, but still unstable. My 733 G4 cost 2 grand brand new, but 4 years later and it runs faster and is more reliable than EVER.

Windows is not a Lexus because Lexus is made by Toyota and Toyotas are the most reliable cars on the road. Windows is not reliable in any way shape or form. I'd say within the last month both my roomate's (one with a crappier celeron Dell and the other with the Athlon as mentioned before) machines has frozen or needed to be rebooted about 20 times. Meanwhile my machine stays on and running 24/7 connected to the internet with no problems whatsoever. So since you changed car companies I'll make my new analogy. Macs are Toyotas and Windows are Yugos. If Yugos ever became the most popular car in the world. (course then everyone would buy Yugos just cuz everyone else has them no matter even if the car was a POS)

Most folks here are borderline PC nerds too (I learned the computer language thanks to Win 3.1 and Win95) and we have switched because we are sick and tired of putting up with spyware, viruses, reminder balloons, install wizards, etc... the list goes on and on and on.

You've gone in so many directions trying to argue your point that the MM has a horrible UI but instead you blatantly refer to Windows standards like its going to make you seem like a valid design proffesional.

Let us know when your hole digs itself into boiling hot magma

I really don't mind most of the world using inferior products, they do with mostly everything anyways.

[sek929]

I gotta say I miss talking about how much Macs kick ass on these forums. Now with Panther and Tiger it makes Windows zealots seem even funnier. Even my roomates have finally come around, they see all the neat stuff I can do with my machine minus all the crap they are used to putting up with.

[sek929]

Originally Posted by james9490

By the way, you need to realize that you are missing good things because you choose to make yourself get stuck in the Mac sandbox. Most Mac users are very ignorant of how Windows works. It's always the Mac users complaining about how they can't use many web services and so on. Why would you want to use a machine that is so incompatible with the rest of the world and torture yourself using it?

Quoted for supreme silliness.

What good things am I missing? What web services, the ones that M$ make proprietary on purpose in order to further push sales of its inferior OS? Please tell me. I'm anxious to see what you put so I can go into my Applications folder and show you I can do anything Windows can do, minus the artery choking spyware and viruses, minus the constant update reminders and .NET reminders, minus all the BS software that exists for Win wheras on the Mac side only the strong software survives, minus...

ahh hell, why am I even bothering here? The statement I just quoted from you blows any validity you had right out of the water.

[james9490]

Originally Posted by sek929

I gotta say I miss talking about how much Macs kick ass on these forums. Now with Panther and Tiger it makes Windows zealots seem even funnier.

How so? What's so compelling about using the Mac? Here is just a short list of Macintosh problems:

1) Browser incompatibilities
Vast majority of today's Internet multimedia contents are encoded in WMV/WMA/ASF format, sometimes with DRM option which doesn't work with the Mac. Novices and non-geek users are completely lost on this one since they don't know how to work around file format conversion. It's not an issue with Windows platform: Double-click, play, and you are done. No worries about which format is going to be Windows-compatible since *everything* is compatible with Windows.

Same with online banking. Some Mac users have complained to me that many will fail to work properly on Safari. Many banking sites specifically state that Internet Explorer on Windows is required to view their sites.

2) Hidden user interface
Mighty Mouse is one major recent example, and there are many other interface elements that are hidden and not easily recognizable. For example, take TextEdit for example and compare that with Microsoft Word. MS Word offers button palettes for most frequently used features. You can even customize those palettes to make all features available with just one click. TextEdit, on the other hand, offers only a few buttons at the top of each document window, and all the other usable features are hidden under menu. There is no way to customize the button bar, either. Everything is hidden.

3) Customize, customize, and customize!
Windows is all about meeting each user's needs. You can design and build your own PC but you can't build your own Mac. I have many options and choices. You don't. Each PC has personality because each machine can have different components and cases. All Macs are the same.

So, with all that, what is your point?

[jasonsRX7]

Haha dude, you're just ****ing around with us, admit it

[james9490]

Originally Posted by sek929

What good things am I missing?

Just a few examples:

- Windows Media 9 DRM: It doesn't work on the Mac so you miss most of premiere audio/video contents.

- .NET development: It's not even available, so you are less marketable as a geek/developer.

- Microsoft Office DRM: It doesn't work on the Mac version so you can't even work with other co-workers.

- Numerous software titles: Let's face it. Windows users have 50 choices for a category of software in which Mac users has 3 choices. More choice is always better.

[analogika]

People have been slamming each and every one of your points in to the ground, and you have yet to even tackle any of them.

You just keep piling on more ******** rather that trying to argue through the points you yourself have brought up...

[james9490]

Originally Posted by jasonsRX7

Haha dude, you're just ****ing around with us, admit it

Huh? I am dead serious. I believe Mighty Mouse has user interface issues, it's bad for novice users and someone needs to loudly address it. I also believe that education is a good thing, and someone needs to address the ignorance rampant among Mac users.

It's you who is just ****ing around with me. As a matter of fact many of you are. It really shows just how low the integrity of Mac users really is.

[james9490]

Originally Posted by analogika

People have been slamming each and every one of your points in to the ground, and you have yet to even tackle any of them.

You just keep piling on more ******** rather that trying to argue through the points you yourself have brought up...

Review the entire thread again. I've been addressing people's concerns, and all they do in return is posting offensive graphics such as one of those obnoxious "HAHA" pictures.

[jasonsRX7]

Originally Posted by james9490

More choice is always better.

Unless it's a choice of OS platforms, or a choice between open source and closed source, or a choice between browsers. In those instances, everyone should use MS solutions.

I got your back, man

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by james9490

No worries about which format is going to be Windows-compatible since *everything* is compatible with Windows.

[snip]

Windows is all about meeting each user's needs. You can design and build your own PC but you can't build your own Mac. I have many options and choices. You don't. Each PC has personality because each machine can have different components and cases. All Macs are the same.

Man, talk about a marketing spiel. Does anybody else remember when the troll said this:

Originally Posted by james9490

I don't defend Windows.

And I love how no matter how much we assure him that we can and do put different components in our Macs, he continues to assert the opposite. Man, he isn't even a good troll. Tips his hand way too much.

[jasonsRX7]

Originally Posted by james9490

Huh? I am dead serious.

You just compared TextEdit to Word. There's no way you're dead serious.

[analogika]

Originally Posted by james9490

Huh? I am dead serious. I believe Mighty Mouse has user interface issues, it's bad for novice users and someone needs to loudly address it. I also believe that education is a good thing, and someone needs to address the ignorance rampant among Mac users.

I am going to loudly address this ONE LAST TIME:

1) HOW IS THE MIGHTY MOUSE BAD FOR NOVICE USERS?


If your answer to 1) is again "hidden interface", then

2) PLEASE EXPLAIN HOW A DISABLED SECOND BUTTON *NOT* PROVIDING ACCESS TO AN UNNECESSARY (BY DESIGN) HIDDEN INTERFACE FEATURE IS "BAD INTERFACE.


3) PLEASE EXPLAIN HOW CONTEXTUAL MENUS ARE *NOT* HIDDEN INTERFACE.


Three simple questions.


Answer them.

[Chuckit]

People, there's no need to get bent out of shape over this. The man just says whatever will contradict what we're saying. Go over his posting history and you'll see this. He's just trolling. Seriously. Facts have no bearing on what he says.

[budster101]

He must have his friends over at "Paul Thurrott dot com" all laughing and telling him what to post...

Hey, now post this! It'll get them mac heads all angry like...

I hope his computer gets another virus and he loses everything. Odds are he's had a few already and passed them on to others.

Good luck with windows Paul. You loser.

[analogika]

No, you've got it wrong.

Even Paul Thurrott has realized that Windows is lightyears behind OS X.

[alphasubzero949]

I can't believe that this has gone on for 7 pages.

[davesimondotcom]

Originally Posted by james9490

Wrong again. Apple stole the Taskbar idea and created the Dock. Windows has had something similar to Finder's Column View for years before Apple came up with the OS X. (i.e. Click on a folder in Windows Explorer's folder tree pane, and its content/preview appears in the right pane.)

Wrong. Again.

The OS X Dock is the direct decendent of the very same idea in NeXTSTEP. And the column view is the same thing. That was 1986.

OS X has two parents with long histories. Mac OS (System 7, OS 8, OS 9, and previous) and NeXTSTEP/OPENSTEP.

[davesimondotcom]

Originally Posted by james9490

Instead of making fun of me why don't you take a close look at this:

Let's say your mouse is within 10 pixels of the exact center of a large, 1600 X 1200 screen. You have a single-pixel target on the screen, and you must point and click precisely. How would you do that quickly? The answer is the pixel immediately at the current cursor location: Click the mouse and you're done.

You are assuming the 1 pixel target is under the arrow. If it's not, good luck trying to find it.

Apple designed it's OS from the very beginning with Fitts' Law in mind. Hence, the menubar at the top of the screen, not attached to each window. If you need more info on this, see asktog.com.

Originally Posted by james9490

Contextual menu works in this fashion, and that's why Windows OS uses it extensively. Everything on the desktop is visible, and the right button on the mouse is also visible and easily identifiable. So, two visible objects are combined to execute a "hidden" menu, and that is NOT what you call a "hidden" interface.

Well, it is what *I* call a hidden interface. i.e. A user has to KNOW to right-click to bring it up. You seem to be under the impression that just because a mouse has a right button that everyone knows its purpose.

That is simply not true. I've seen my mother-in-law and father-in-law using Windows. They could know that a context menu exists, or a keyboard shortcut, but they always, very carefully (and slowly) click on the 16x16 printer icon in Word to get things to print.

Originally Posted by james9490

Now, Mighty Mouse is extremely troublesome because there is no visible and identifiable "right button," so user is destined to get confused.

But by your very own assumptions, once a user knows something (i.e. that a context menu is possible), they know it.

And since the MM is a completely new mouse, that one would have to choose to buy, it is easy to assume the user knows the right button exists.

Originally Posted by james9490

By the way, you need to realize that you are missing good things because you choose to make yourself get stuck in the Mac sandbox. Most Mac users are very ignorant of how Windows works. It's always the Mac users complaining about how they can't use many web services and so on. Why would you want to use a machine that is so incompatible with the rest of the world and torture yourself using it?

I choose the "Mac sandbox." And to quote the old Power Computing ad, you can have my Mac when you pry it from my cold, dead hands.

I would like you to show me a single "web service" that I can't use on my Mac, that I want to use. I have a Windows machine. I never use it. I don't even test websites with it anymore, thanks to SiteVista.

And before you say I don't know about Windows, let me point out that I worked on Windows 2000 for two years as part of my job, every day, 8 hours a day. I think I'm pretty familiar.

[davesimondotcom]

Originally Posted by james9490

Specify the page and I will look. There are so many people posting here now that I don't always respond to every single posts. Some of them are not worth dealing with because they are simply trolling for the sake of being offensive to me.

I don't think I should have to look. Just do a search for Mighty Mouse, using my username, that should narrow it down pretty fast.

Originally Posted by james9490

Why should I be obligated to do so when you haven't either?

I already explained the differences between on screen and physical UI. Do you often look at your gas or brake pedal when you drive?

Originally Posted by james9490

Any examples? I can use my Windows machine without hardly using my right button, but why should I have to do that while I can shortcut all the way with contextual menus? Contextual menus increase productivity, and interestingly, Windows use it extensively. No wonder 99% of the world use Windows.

You seem to assume I'm anti-context menu. I'm not. But I think they are "hidden." And you also seem to assume that because Macs ship with one-button mice that Macs don't have context menus. Ever actually used a Mac?

Originally Posted by james9490

Yes, once in a while, and guess what, everyone does, especially novice users (remember, most people are not geeks) and elderly people. Are you saying they are not worthy of using computers because they aren't geeks??

I honestly don't think that I EVER look at my mouse to click. I spent 10 minutes last night watching my wife use her G4. She's a novice. She didn't look at the mouse at all during that time. Or the keyboard (she is a good typist.) My dad looks at the keyboard, because he's a hunt-n-peck typist.

See, you are trying to say I'm the guy saying people who aren't geeks shouldn't use computers. WRONG. I just hope they buy a Mac, because they are much more user friendly. They work out of the box.

My best friend just bought his first computer with his wife. An eMac. Neither of them want to worry about spyware, firewalls, or any of that. They don't have to with a Mac.

Originally Posted by james9490

Well, you won't have to on Windows. There is a visible, clickable right button. You don't have to lift your finger to click the right button. Windows way wins.....

Funny thing is, I use a Microsoft Intellimouse Explorer on my Mac. But after using the Mighty Mouse at a friend's house, I'm buying one.

Why? Well, because I fell in love with the scroll ball. Can't get that from Microsoft.

[loki74]

[QUOTE=james9490]Instead of making fun of me why don't you take a close look at this:

Originally Posted by james9490

Contextual menu works in this fashion, and that's why Windows OS uses it extensively. Everything on the desktop is visible, and the right button on the mouse is also visible and easily identifiable. So, two visible objects are combined to execute a "hidden" menu, and that is NOT what you call a "hidden" interface.

Um... MM is no different. Really. In a typical two button mouse, its a matter of distinguishing two different objects, but execution is the same. MM does not have 2 buttons, what differs is the methon of execution--one is right finger, one is left finger. You still get the same functionality.

Originally Posted by james9490

By the way, you need to realize that you are missing good things because you choose to make yourself get stuck in the Mac sandbox. Most Mac users are very ignorant of how Windows works. It's always the Mac users complaining about how they can't use many web services and so on. Why would you want to use a machine that is so incompatible with the rest of the world and torture yourself using it?

I am not bit ignorant of how Windows works. I have been using computers for as long as I can rememeber. I just switched this past Christmas. I've been on the platform for less than a year. But I love it. I'll tell you something right now--you don't know one thing about the Mac OS platform, or the community of its users. I doubt if any Mac users feel "tourtured." Simply because they can do so much on OSX that they could not do on PC.

As a 3D animator, I can tell you this from experience: Windows sucks. On all levels. Massively. There are few things more frustrating than a machine crashing on the second to last frame of a massive render that's been going for like a day. The spyware is terrible. So are the viruses. And I have on that PC Zone Alarm, Kaspersky, as well as a hardware Firewall, plus WPA Encryption. It still sucked. Because not only are all those things NOT 100%, they eat system resources like a bitch.

...and don't even get me started on that monstrosity of a concept called the "Registry."

You say that we are not compatible with the rest of the world. I can tell you that my online habits/interactions with people I know changed minimally upon switching. I am far from incompatable with the rest of the world. Majority of the programs windows users use also run on Mac. I have never needed a piece of software that runs only on PC.

Also, most of us Mac users are creative professionals. The only creative professional field I know of where PC's are mainly used is the game development industry, cheifly because of Direct3D/DirectX and its relationship with Xbox, as well as because 3DS Max, the most popular 3D modeller/animator for game dev only runs on PC. But everything else is Mac saturated. So we are far from incompatable with anything.

Furthermore, most of use are quite well versed with PC's as we may use them at work and quite often own one ore more at home. We just like to use the Mac because its so much better.

Getting back to UI, Windows is terribly inefficient. I mean, on my Mac, I can do just about anything without even thinking about it. It's just so easy. Even the massively complex pro Apple apps I use (Final Cut Pro HD, Motion, DVD Studio Pro, etc) are easy to figure out and get started with. Menus are consistent, as are message boxes, app layouts, etc. This makes everything very tightly integrated and easy to use. Then there's Expose. Wow, how that has increased efficiency!!.

And of course, let us not forget Fitt's Law. But as a "UI expert," I'm sure you know all about that right? Or do you want a lowly Mac user to spell it out for you?

Mac OS is far superior than Windows. Simple as that.

[alphasubzero949]

james9490, how about perusing this before you continue embossing your misinformed drivel about OS X in this forum.

[budster101]

I think he's gone...

[nayr x]

Wow.....

after reading this thread, all I can say is that I sure hope that James' handler has had him neutered. While it is impressive that a down-syndromed rhesus monkey has been taught to type, I still think it should be kept from reproducing. Just to be safe.

[loki74]

Originally Posted by nayr x

Wow.....

after reading this thread, all I can say is that I sure hope that James' handler has had him neutered. While it is impressive that a down-syndromed rhesus monkey has been taught to type, I still think it should be kept from reproducing. Just to be safe.

perfect!!

[james9490]

Originally Posted by nayr x

Wow.....

after reading this thread, all I can say is that I sure hope that James' handler has had him neutered. While it is impressive that a down-syndromed rhesus monkey has been taught to type, I still think it should be kept from reproducing. Just to be safe.

Just how offensive can you get toward other forum members? I demand your public apology for this one. I really do. Would you please just go away if you don't care to engage in serious discussions?

[james9490]

Originally Posted by budster101

I think he's gone...

Why did you think so?

Unlike many of you I have a full time IT job.

[james9490]

Originally Posted by alphasubzero949

james9490, how about perusing this before you continue embossing your misinformed drivel about OS X in this forum.

I know about NeXT OS. What an ugly OS... Windows 3.1 is better than this ugliness.

Besides, did it have any useful applications written for it? That's what counts at the end. It's not useful without huge support from third-party developers.

[james9490]

Originally Posted by loki74

Um... MM is no different. Really. In a typical two button mouse, its a matter of distinguishing two different objects, but execution is the same. MM does not have 2 buttons, what differs is the methon of execution--one is right finger, one is left finger. You still get the same functionality.

You still don't see my point. You have to *know* which finger to press without any sort of visual cues on MM. With other two-button mice, right button is VISIBLE, and therefore you would notice before having to learn it.

Originally Posted by loki74

As a 3D animator, I can tell you this from experience: Windows sucks. On all levels. Massively. There are few things more frustrating than a machine crashing on the second to last frame of a massive render that's been going for like a day. The spyware is terrible. So are the viruses. And I have on that PC Zone Alarm, Kaspersky, as well as a hardware Firewall, plus WPA Encryption. It still sucked. Because not only are all those things NOT 100%, they eat system resources like a bitch.

That's why I build my own machine from scratch. "Lean and Mean" is my slogan. I have a solution for your 3-D project: BUILD YOUR OWN MACHINE with 2GB RAM and Serial ATA drives. That should speed up rendering.

Originally Posted by loki74

...and don't even get me started on that monstrosity of a concept called the "Registry."

Windows Registry by itself actually is a good idea because it centralize all the system resources and configuration, and it allows users to configure the system exactly the way they want. Microsoft knew that Windows 3.1 style system management wouldn't be able to handle all the new system resource management features without first centralizing everything. With the Registry schema there is only one place to look up for everything.

Originally Posted by loki74

You say that we are not compatible with the rest of the world. I can tell you that my online habits/interactions with people I know changed minimally upon switching. I am far from incompatable with the rest of the world. Majority of the programs windows users use also run on Mac. I have never needed a piece of software that runs only on PC.

You need to realize, though, that Windows Media 9 DRM doesn't work on the Mac, and it is the de-facto standard for multimedia contents. How are you going to deal with that one?

Originally Posted by loki74

Also, most of us Mac users are creative professionals. The only creative professional field I know of where PC's are mainly used is the game development industry, cheifly because of Direct3D/DirectX and its relationship with Xbox, as well as because 3DS Max, the most popular 3D modeller/animator for game dev only runs on PC. But everything else is Mac saturated. So we are far from incompatable with anything.

Unfortunately for Apple, media/publishing houses around the country have been busy migrating everything to Windows-based workflow. After all, all their apps run on Windows: Adobe Photoshop, Illustrator, etc. etc.

Originally Posted by loki74

Furthermore, most of use are quite well versed with PC's as we may use them at work and quite often own one ore more at home. We just like to use the Mac because its so much better.

So much better for what? Bragging rights?

Originally Posted by loki74

Getting back to UI, Windows is terribly inefficient. I mean, on my Mac, I can do just about anything without even thinking about it. It's just so easy. Even the massively complex pro Apple apps I use (Final Cut Pro HD, Motion, DVD Studio Pro, etc) are easy to figure out and get started with. Menus are consistent, as are message boxes, app layouts, etc. This makes everything very tightly integrated and easy to use. Then there's Expose. Wow, how that has increased efficiency!!.

Well, then, again, I have to ask you this: If Final Cut Pro and other "pro-apps" are so easy to use, why there are so many "how-to" books out there for those apps? It's not easy to learn so long as you have to read a 1,000 page manual just to learn how to do everything.

Originally Posted by loki74

And of course, let us not forget Fitt's Law. But as a "UI expert," I'm sure you know all about that right? Or do you want a lowly Mac user to spell it out for you?

Not necessary. Thanks. Yes, I know what Fitt's Law is. If you don't know, just google the word and you will find the answer.

[davesimondotcom]

Originally Posted by james9490

if you don't care to engage in serious discussions?

Serious discussions? This is MacNN! You must be new here.

Please note, I have been serious this entire thread. You have yet to refute my comments re: Fitts' Law. Or the idea that in the physical world lots of things are "hidden" and considered ok. Pedals in a car. Keys on the keyboard.

If I start getting off track it's because I'm listening to the Clash on the new iTunes 5...and MacNN ate my last response so this is a re-do.

Your example of a context menu always being right where your mouse is is ok, except when you consider what a context menu is. It's a menu. Buttons. A list of buttons. Each of which is a finite size.

Meanwhile, the Mac menu bar was designed with Fitts' Law in mind. Infinite height.

I've also always found that the Windows arrow cursor is clumsy. Mousing on a Mac has always seemed more natural to me. More precise. Possibly because it is a natural part of a Mac, whereas Windows, built on DOS it isn't.

But all this started with the discussion of a peripheral. An OPTIONAL one at that. If you don't want one, don't buy it. I'm buying one this weekend.

[davesimondotcom]

Originally Posted by james9490

I know about NeXT OS. What an ugly OS... Windows 3.1 is better than this ugliness.

Besides, did it have any useful applications written for it? That's what counts at the end. It's not useful without huge support from third-party developers.

Oh. My. God. Surely you jest. Windows 3.1 better looking than NeXTSTEP? Even in 1986, NeXTSTEP had 48x48 photorealistic TIFF icons. It was beautiful for it's time. Jobs has always had a knack for design. He hired Paul Rand to do his logo, after all!!

Windows, to me, has always been awash in blue and white. The ugly white cursor. The blue title bars. Everything always looks clunky and huge to me.

But all that is another thread.

So is responding to your idea that there were no useful apps for NeXT. Do some research.

And one really cool "app" was written on a NeXTSTEP machine. Some little protocol invented by Tim Berners-Lee. Hypertext transfer protocol. HTTP. The World Wide Web.

Maybe you've heard of it. I hear it's big out there on the interweb.

[james9490]

Originally Posted by davesimondotcom

You are assuming the 1 pixel target is under the arrow. If it's not, good luck trying to find it.

Apple designed it's OS from the very beginning with Fitts' Law in mind. Hence, the menubar at the top of the screen, not attached to each window. If you need more info on this, see asktog.com.

Interestingly, most novice users get lost with static menubar because they can't understand different application modes. It's easy on Windows: menus are attached to where they belong: each applications. Users are able to know which command belongs to what applications and so on.

Well, it is what *I* call a hidden interface. i.e. A user has to KNOW to right-click to bring it up. You seem to be under the impression that just because a mouse has a right button that everyone knows its purpose.

Sure they do because most of them have already used Windows OS.

That is simply not true. I've seen my mother-in-law and father-in-law using Windows. They could know that a context menu exists, or a keyboard shortcut, but they always, very carefully (and slowly) click on the 16x16 printer icon in Word to get things to print.

Have you even tried to teach them how to do all that? Do a favor and teach them how to click the right button so they don't have to put up with your Mac bigotry.

But by your very own assumptions, once a user knows something (i.e. that a context menu is possible), they know it.

And since the MM is a completely new mouse, that one would have to choose to buy, it is easy to assume the user knows the right button exists.

Not quite. The box doesn't say it's two-button mouse. It simply says "Mighty Mouse."

I choose the "Mac sandbox." And to quote the old Power Computing ad, you can have my Mac when you pry it from my cold, dead hands.

I choose PC as Microsoft says "Where do you want to go today?" When someone asks me that, PC gives me more options than the Mac.

I would like you to show me a single "web service" that I can't use on my Mac, that I want to use. I have a Windows machine. I never use it. I don't even test websites with it anymore, thanks to SiteVista.

.NET framework. ASP development. ActiveX-based online game services. etc. etc.

And before you say I don't know about Windows, let me point out that I worked on Windows 2000 for two years as part of my job, every day, 8 hours a day. I think I'm pretty familiar.

Bluffing.

[james9490]

Originally Posted by davesimondotcom

Wrong. Again.

The OS X Dock is the direct decendent of the very same idea in NeXTSTEP. And the column view is the same thing. That was 1986.

OS X has two parents with long histories. Mac OS (System 7, OS 8, OS 9, and previous) and NeXTSTEP/OPENSTEP.

So how does that become an advantage?

[sek929]

Originally Posted by james9490

You need to realize, though, that Windows Media 9 DRM doesn't work on the Mac, and it is the de-facto standard for multimedia contents. How are you going to deal with that one?


Unfortunately for Apple, media/publishing houses around the country have been busy migrating everything to Windows-based workflow. After all, all their apps run on Windows: Adobe Photoshop, Illustrator, etc. etc.

Firstly, Windows Media Player 9 is for Mac, and coupled with VLC I can play any video I come across. Firefox even tricks places like CNN.com and MSNBC.com into thinking I have the most updated Windows Media and it plays right in the browser, If that doesn't work the "save as" feature certainly takes care of any problems.

If design houses are switching to Mac why does my CVPA lab (College of Visual and Performing Arts) have about 70 G5s with 20 inch monitors? In fact any design school you go to (sans 3-D modeling) will use Macs exclusively for design since its what the industry rides on.

PCs for people who type in Word and browse the web, Macs for proffesionals that need to get work done with zero BS.

You have to be screwing with us, either that or you're a huge troll. In the history of NN there have been many of your kind, most with far more valid statements to back up their Windows zealotry than you have.

[james9490]

Originally Posted by davesimondotcom

Oh. My. God. Surely you jest. Windows 3.1 better looking than NeXTSTEP? Even in 1986, NeXTSTEP had 48x48 photorealistic TIFF icons. It was beautiful for it's time. Jobs has always had a knack for design. He hired Paul Rand to do his logo, after all!!

Design is where Steve Jobs stops. Bill Gates won by going for functionality and more features, and that's what consumers need, not some fancy 48 x 48 photorealistic icons.

And one really cool "app" was written on a NeXTSTEP machine. Some little protocol invented by Tim Berners-Lee. Hypertext transfer protocol. HTTP. The World Wide Web.

I am pretty sure he also had a PC and did most of his development on the PC.

[davesimondotcom]

Originally Posted by james9490

You still don't see my point. You have to *know* which finger to press without any sort of visual cues on MM. With other two-button mice, right button is VISIBLE, and therefore you would notice before having to learn it.

Dude, if you buy a MM, you KNOW about the right button. And you configure it yourself.

Originally Posted by james9490

That's why I build my own machine from scratch. "Lean and Mean" is my slogan. I have a solution for your 3-D project: BUILD YOUR OWN MACHINE with 2GB RAM and Serial ATA drives. That should speed up rendering.

Yep, that's user friendly. "Want a machine to do anything? Build it yourself!"

Originally Posted by james9490

Windows Registry by itself actually is a good idea because it centralize all the system resources and configuration, and it allows users to configure the system exactly the way they want. Microsoft knew that Windows 3.1 style system management wouldn't be able to handle all the new system resource management features without first centralizing everything. With the Registry schema there is only one place to look up for everything.

Rationalize much? The Registry is a hack. And a bad one at that.

It used to amaze my Windows buddies when I'd delete an application on my Mac. They were like, "hey, how did you do that?"

Originally Posted by james9490

You need to realize, though, that Windows Media 9 DRM doesn't work on the Mac, and it is the de-facto standard for multimedia contents. How are you going to deal with that one?

De-facto standard my ass. Ever hear of QuickTime?

Originally Posted by james9490

Unfortunately for Apple, media/publishing houses around the country have been busy migrating everything to Windows-based workflow. After all, all their apps run on Windows: Adobe Photoshop, Illustrator, etc. etc.

I call BULLSH*T on this one. You obviously don't work in the design, media or publishing industry.

Many magazines charge 10% more if you send them Windows files. Many others won't take them.

Printers are by large majority Mac houses. Why? COLOR MANAGEMENT. Just having Photoshop on a platform doesn't change the fact that it can't get colors dead on accurate. The Mac can, does and is the standard.

Originally Posted by james9490

So much better for what? Bragging rights?

To me, the Mac is better for one reason: productivity. I don't spend time in the Registry. I don't fight spyware or viruses. I NEVER crash. It just works.

The PowerBook I'm on right now I have had since May. During that time I have rebooted twice. Once because my wife forgot to plug it in. The other because I installed a software update that required restart. Current uptime: 23 days, 2hours, 33 minutes. Before the last reboot, it was up to 70 days. Used probably 10 hours a day, maybe more.

Originally Posted by james9490

Well, then, again, I have to ask you this: If Final Cut Pro and other "pro-apps" are so easy to use, why there are so many "how-to" books out there for those apps? It's not easy to learn so long as you have to read a 1,000 page manual just to learn how to do everything.

There are "how-to" books because the documentation is weak and people make money selling books. Duh. Doesn't mean you can't figure out how to use them well by just experimenting.

Originally Posted by james9490

Not necessary. Thanks. Yes, I know what Fitt's Law is. If you don't know, just google the word and you will find the answer.

If you had to Google it, you aren't the UI expert.

[james9490]

Originally Posted by analogika

No, you've got it wrong.

Even Paul Thurrott has realized that Windows is lightyears behind OS X.

Have you seen his recent article? He actually says that Vista will surpass OS X Tiger.

Nice try, but sorry, Vista will eat Tiger's tail.

[sek929]

Just so you don't think I'm bluffing I'll name all the proffesional apps I use.

Flash MX
Lightwave 7
Modeler (part of Lightwave)
Photoshop CS
Illustrator CS
Director MX
Final Cut Pro 3

I've had classes that focused heavily on each of these programs and we learned them on <gasp> Macs! Meanwhile the PCs at my school sit in te library with IE running, since thats all they are good for.....besides freezing, crashing, going down, etc.

[james9490]

Originally Posted by budster101

He must have his friends over at "Paul Thurrott dot com" all laughing and telling him what to post...

Hey, now post this! It'll get them mac heads all angry like...

I hope his computer gets another virus and he loses everything. Odds are he's had a few already and passed them on to others.

Good luck with windows Paul. You loser.

No chance buddy. I've got my trusty Norton Anti-Virus running at full-speed, and DriveImage is available at my fingertip in case of unexpected disaster. Try that with your Mac...

[davesimondotcom]

Originally Posted by james9490

So how does that become an advantage?

I didn't say it was an advantage, I was replying to your statement that the Mac "stole" column view and the taskbar/dock.

1986 is earlier than 1995.

[james9490]

Originally Posted by Chuckit

People, there's no need to get bent out of shape over this. The man just says whatever will contradict what we're saying. Go over his posting history and you'll see this. He's just trolling. Seriously. Facts have no bearing on what he says.

I am becoming really tired of people like you, coming to people's thread and calling people trolls while you don't even have any guts to discuss seriously.

[sek929]

Originally Posted by james9490

No chance buddy. I've got my trusty Norton Anti-Virus running at full-speed, and DriveImage is available at my fingertip in case of unexpected disaster. Try that with your Mac...

We don't need to. You do have a serious comprehension problem don't you?

[james9490]

Originally Posted by jasonsRX7

You just compared TextEdit to Word. There's no way you're dead serious.

I just compared how each app lays out commonly used commands. I didn't compare them based on feature sets.

[davesimondotcom]

Originally Posted by james9490

Interestingly, most novice users get lost with static menubar because they can't understand different application modes. It's easy on Windows: menus are attached to where they belong: each applications. Users are able to know which command belongs to what applications and so on.

Cite your sources for this assumption. Someone needs to visit asktog.com to read up on some of the many studies. Or read Tog on Interface.

Originally Posted by james9490

Sure they do because most of them have already used Windows OS.

Again, an unproven assumption. Why can't we just assume that someone would know about the second button on the MM? Oh, because that doesn't fit your model.

Originally Posted by james9490

Have you even tried to teach them how to do all that? Do a favor and teach them how to click the right button so they don't have to put up with your Mac bigotry.

I don't teach computers or golf to people I like. Ends up in frustration on both ends. Besides, if a right-click context menu is so obvious, why should they have to be shown?

Originally Posted by james9490

Not quite. The box doesn't say it's two-button mouse. It simply says "Mighty Mouse."

I haven't seen a box, so I can't comment on this.

Originally Posted by james9490

I choose PC as Microsoft says "Where do you want to go today?" When someone asks me that, PC gives me more options than the Mac.

I haven't found anywhere my Mac can't go that I want to go.

Originally Posted by james9490

.NET framework. ASP development. ActiveX-based online game services. etc. etc.

Proprietary MS crap. I don't give a crap about ASP or .NET.

Give me Apache, PHP, MySQL, Ruby on Rails. Last I checked, all worked on Mac, all work well.

Originally Posted by james9490

Bluffing.

Yeah, I'm making up my employment history. Web Administrator for ILX Lightwave Corporation from June 1999 to June 2001. Call them and ask if you wish.

P.S. The current site up at ilxlightwave.com is not anything I had a part in. They went in reverse after I left. Check archive.org if you want.

[james9490]

Originally Posted by Chuckit

Man, talk about a marketing spiel. Does anybody else remember when the troll said this:



And I love how no matter how much we assure him that we can and do put different components in our Macs, he continues to assert the opposite. Man, he isn't even a good troll. Tips his hand way too much.

You don't get it, do you. Try installing a video card on an iMac. You CAN'T!! On the other hand $500 consumer grade PCs can have extra video card. You could even slam in P4 3.3Ghz upgrade and 2GB RAM if you want to, not to mention an upgraded motherboard. Try that with an iMac. You are stuck with one hardware set.