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crazyjoey1 · Nov 28, 2005, 02:41 PM

So, a err, friend of mine recently received money for which he had invoiced the company he works for. However, due to some clerical error, the company paid him an equivalent amount to his last two invoices combined. Morally he should give back around half the money. But then this friend of mine is quite pragmatic, and it's a big company which is in profit. If they don't notice, is it still legally up to him to tell them? If they found out and he claimed he hadn't even noticed their error, would he still be held legally responsible for taking the money, even though they gave it to him?

Quite an interesting one I'm sure you'll agree. My friend is probably going to end up notifying the company, because he's just like that, but it's tempting to at least check out the options! I mean, it's legal in Monopoly isn't it? - "Bank error in your favour, collect $200"!

CanadaRAM · Nov 28, 2005, 03:06 PM

If he is in a position to reasonably know that it was an error, then IMO he is obligated to inform them.

Similarly, if you go out for bids on a new roof, lets say, and get 4 bids based on 3,000 sq. feet and one super low bid where you spot an error that it was calculated on 300 sq. ft., you cannot hold the low bidder to the erroneous bid, because you were in a position to know it was an error (that's contract law in Canada at least, I assume that it is the same in most commercial codes).

Once they do their auditing, they can come back and ask him to return the money. They can't accuse him of theft or anything, but if they know he knew and didn't say anything, it isn't gonna go down well in his personnel file.

He doesn't get to selectively choose his morality/honesty depending on how rich the other party is, either.

Doofy · Nov 28, 2005, 03:43 PM

Notify the company because:

1) It's the right thing to do. Theft is theft is theft.

2) Honesty goes a long way - it'll greatly enhance his reputation to give the cash back.

Here's an example: My local store doesn't give credit to anyone. I shopped there for a while and one time noticed that they'd given me too much change. So next time I was in there I pointed this out to the owner and gave him his cash back. Roll on a few months and I'm a couple of quid short (thought I had more in my pocket than I actually had) when making a purchase in there. Answer: "Don't worry about it, we know you're honest, take the goods and give us the balance next time you're in".

BlueSky · Nov 28, 2005, 04:12 PM

Originally Posted by crazyjoey1

Quite an interesting one I'm sure you'll agree.

I don't think it's interesting at all. He has money which doesn't belong to him. All the rest is rationalization.

rasmusnet · Nov 28, 2005, 04:24 PM

The company will probably find out eventually, if not before then when doing their annual reports. When that happens the company will either hold back a similar amount of his next paycheck or they will ask him to return the amount.
If he refuses he might be fired. No company want to employ people that they can't trust.
So if he want to keep his job in the long run, he should return the money asap, before this becomes a reason for the company not to trust him.
If he doesn't, I hope he will be fired WHEN they find out!

Cody Dawg · Nov 28, 2005, 04:25 PM

I say leave it where it is.

Don't spend it. Just let it sit there.

If they are dumbasses, too bad for them.

Don't get on the moral high ground about it. Too much work.

Think of it this way: Would they have returned money to you? If so, then return it. If the answer is "No" then keep it and wait for them to wake up and smell the coffee.

Doofy · Nov 28, 2005, 04:36 PM

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

Think of it this way: Would they have returned money to you? If the answer is "No" then keep it and wait for them to wake up and smell the coffee.

If one of my people did that on me they'd be fired immediately.

Cody Dawg · Nov 28, 2005, 04:46 PM

I notice that you didn't say, "My company has measures in place to prevent overbilling and if that occurs we refund the monies immediately."

No, the sad truth is that when FAO Schwartz charged me twice for the same item years ago and I didn't notice it until about three months later I was screwed by both them and by Citibank who did not refund my money. I closed that account and I was thrilled when they closed in my area because they made an error in which they profited unjustly and I was out the money. $223.46 to be exact. They got my kids' money, or the money that I use to feed them, is the way I see it. For nothing.

Now my attitude is check everything VERY carefully - including grocery store receipts - and wait and see.

Big business will take your money...but they rarely make overtures to make sure it is returned.

cjrivera · Nov 28, 2005, 04:56 PM

Originally Posted by Doofy

Notify the company because:

1) It's the right thing to do. Theft is theft is theft.

2) Honesty goes a long way - it'll greatly enhance his reputation to give the cash back.

Here's an example: My local store doesn't give credit to anyone. I shopped there for a while and one time noticed that they'd given me too much change. So next time I was in there I pointed this out to the owner and gave him his cash back. Roll on a few months and I'm a couple of quid short (thought I had more in my pocket than I actually had) when making a purchase in there. Answer: "Don't worry about it, we know you're honest, take the goods and give us the balance next time you're in".

strictlyplaid · Nov 28, 2005, 04:59 PM

The university where I work frequently makes pay mistakes that short people thousands of dollars, then takes months to pay them back. There have been a couple of cases where students have had to take out loans from professors just to make rent. The university gives them nothing extra (interest, etc.) when they finally do get around to paying the back wages.

If you're one minute late paying your registration fees as a student here, they'll charge you $100 extra, non-refundable.

That said, I would give the money back right away. Two wrongs don't make a right.

Doofy · Nov 28, 2005, 04:59 PM

Just because big business are a bunch of evil retards, it doesn't mean we have to sink to their level and do the same as them.

Cody Dawg · Nov 28, 2005, 05:01 PM

One thing I do want to say, though?

If your friend values his relationship with that company he will send the money back. If they do find out then he will lose their business permanently in the future and also, they may tell others and he will lose their business also.

Secondly, if he DOES return it and they see that he is honest they may just do even more business with him.

So, if he wants to do the right thing there will be positive ramifications and consequences.

If he doesn't want to he doesn't have to...but he'll always wonder if they know about it...or if they will find out.

I think giving it back would be healthier mentally, yes.

BlueSky · Nov 28, 2005, 05:02 PM

Originally Posted by Doofy

Just because big business are a bunch of evil retards, it doesn't mean we have to sink to their level and do the same as them.

What he said.

That's all it is, has nothing to do with them. It's about you.

KeriVit · Nov 28, 2005, 05:06 PM

How much money are we talking?

Peter · Nov 28, 2005, 05:12 PM

Originally Posted by Doofy

Notify the company because:

1) It's the right thing to do. Theft is theft is theft.

2) Honesty goes a long way - it'll greatly enhance his reputation to give the cash back.

Here's an example: My local store doesn't give credit to anyone. I shopped there for a while and one time noticed that they'd given me too much change. So next time I was in there I pointed this out to the owner and gave him his cash back. Roll on a few months and I'm a couple of quid short (thought I had more in my pocket than I actually had) when making a purchase in there. Answer: "Don't worry about it, we know you're honest, take the goods and give us the balance next time you're in".

so true

Oisín · Nov 28, 2005, 05:14 PM

Originally Posted by strictlyplaid

That said, I would give the money back right away. Two wrongs don't make a right.

Hence your username?

Edit: Never mind, I read past the second l and thought your name was strictlypaid, not strictlyplaid. My bad.

Big Mac · Nov 28, 2005, 05:17 PM

Everyone knows the answer to the moral question proposed, but the legal one is a bit more thought provoking. I would deem such assets as a type of lost property; according to my understanding common law would require that the finder return the property to its known owner. If, on the other hand, the property were found without a known owner, common law would assign possession to the finder. Depending on the state and local laws there are likely statutory guidelines as well. This page is fine reading if you're interested in the legal ramifications.

Dark Helmet · Nov 28, 2005, 05:21 PM

Keep the damn money and let Jesus figure out the morality of it all.

Kevin · Nov 28, 2005, 05:22 PM

Originally Posted by Doofy

Just because big business are a bunch of evil retards, it doesn't mean we have to sink to their level and do the same as them.

Exactly.

I wonder why did the original poster have to register a new username to post the thread.

ghporter · Nov 28, 2005, 05:27 PM

I'm with both Doofy and rasmusnet on this. Returning the overpayment is the right thing to do, AND doing so before an internal audit turns it up gets "your friend" some really good business capital: a reputation for being an honest businessman.

Look at it this way. If he returns the money, he's not out anything he didn't earn, and he does stand to earn a lot of points toward more business later.

Mrjinglesusa · Nov 28, 2005, 05:40 PM

The money is not his, it's the company's. He did not earn it and it was not willingly and knowingly given to him. It's like if you go to the ATM and take out $200.00. This amount gets deducted from your account but the ATM spits out $2,000. That $1,800 is not yours, it's the banks. If you keep it you are stealing. Period. This is neither a moral or legal question. It's clear-cut in both accounts. The money does not belong to him.

Cody Dawg · Nov 28, 2005, 06:02 PM

Where's cpt kangarooski when we really need him?

tooki · Nov 28, 2005, 07:19 PM

And what if "your friend" got audited?

You have a payment that can't be reconciled with an account receivable. Not good!

tooki

d0ubled0wn · Nov 28, 2005, 07:51 PM

If the company is Sears, tell him to keep the money. Otherwise give it back.

RobOnTheCape · Nov 28, 2005, 08:16 PM

I think we all agree on what the correct course of action here is. However, following through on that action I'll bet is a different story. It's easy to go on and on about legal/moral wrangling, but it would be interesting to see just how many people put into a similar situation would react as they profess to.

For me I'd honestly say it's a tough one. At the gym I found a $3,000 dollar Rolex on a machine next to me, but turned it in. The guy strolled in 3 days later asking about it, (damn). However, I'd honestly say if it were dealing with a corporate entity, then it would depend on the situation/company. Some of my accounts are very fair(though they never mention underbilling on my part), and there are others who are less than fair in dealings with the publicand me. I'd take factors such as those into consideration. A few times in the past crazy summer I've pointed out to a few that they didn't bill me for something, when I know it's forgotten.

And it would also depend on just how they blended my medium light with one sugar at Dunkin Donuts too.

SirCastor · Nov 28, 2005, 08:27 PM

As mentioned previously, the whole of the argument is justification. It is morally wrong.