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ciparis · Jan 15, 2006, 01:36 PM

Now that there's a (hopefully not-about-to-be-Admin'd) post just about this, I'll post my comments here rather than continue burying them in that other thread. I was surprised that it really boots so quickly (I actually hadn't even turned mine off or rebooted since yesterday afternoon when I unpacked it

). Mine echo the numbers above. It's also just about dead silent -- if there's any ambient noise I can't hear it at all. Otherwise there's a very low-pitched and very quiet hum from the bottom.

Hardware Overview:

Machine Name: iMac
Machine Model: iMac4,1
CPU Type: Intel Core Duo
Number Of Cores: 2
CPU Speed: 2 GHz
L2 Cache (shared): 2 MB
Memory: 512 MB
Bus Speed: 667 MHz
Boot ROM Version: IM41.0039.B00
Serial Number: W8601xxxxxx
SMC Version: 1.1f2

System Software Overview:

System Version: Mac OS X 10.4.4 (8G1165)
Kernel Version: Darwin 8.4.1

ciparis · Jan 15, 2006, 01:36 PM

double-post

ciparis · Jan 15, 2006, 01:48 PM

Originally Posted by mduell

Can you run the Photoshop benchmark from the PowerMac forum?

1:03 (from clicking "OK") first run, 57s second run.

macintologist · Jan 15, 2006, 01:50 PM

Originally Posted by ravenz

* XBench tests were performed and uploaded, but I don't trust the results. The numbers looked worse than a first generation G4 PowerBook. Something in XBench is not optimized for Intel. I used the Universal Binary version.

X-Bench Version History
1.2 [2005-07-30]
-Built as a Universal Binary to run on both PowerPC and x86 Macs
-Re-calibrated 100 point baseline to a 2.0 GHz G5 running Tiger
-Altered graphics code to flush only every 1/60th of a second, in order to cooperate with Tiger beam syncing
-Built Intel code on GCC 4.0, PowerPC remains on GCC 3.3 for 10.3 compatibility

Nothing is wrong with the X-Bench, silly.

boombashi · Jan 15, 2006, 02:11 PM

Originally Posted by macintologist

Nothing is wrong with the X-Bench, silly.

Yup, and the Intel Core Duo is the same speed as a Mac mini

http://db.xbench.com/

baw · Jan 15, 2006, 02:18 PM

Originally Posted by boombashi

Yup, and the Intel Core Duo is the same speed as a Mac mini

http://db.xbench.com/

Could be. Just the iMac has the faster bus.

boombashi · Jan 15, 2006, 02:22 PM

Originally Posted by baw

Could be. Just the iMac has the faster bus.

the iMac Core Duo 2Ghz has like 6x the horse power of a G4 Mac mini. Something ain't right with those results.

ApplCmptrDood · Jan 15, 2006, 02:50 PM

The reason why xBench is probably screwing up, is because PPC and Intel are like comparing Apples and Oranges. At least it seems that way.

dazzla · Jan 15, 2006, 02:57 PM

Best way to compare is real life tests. Audio encoding in iTunes, Video encoding in iDVD/iMovie/ffmpeg etc. I never read any xbench ****.

pat++ · Jan 15, 2006, 03:10 PM

ravenz, could you please download EasyWMA demo from http://www.easywma.com and tell me if the app is actually running on Intel? I've just compiled a version in universal binary (ffmpeg is still using rosetta) but I have no idea if it's working or not as I do not have an Intel Mac to test it... Thanks !

Drakino · Jan 15, 2006, 03:12 PM

Anyone have a slipstreamed Windows Server 2003 SP1 install disc? Microsoft added some GPT (the disk format) support to it, not sure if they modified the boot, or just enough to read disks added after an install.

Anyone found a way into the EFI interface, ala the Command-Option-O-F on Open Firmware? I have some training docs on EFI somewhere around here that may help depending on what it dumps to.

ravenz · Jan 15, 2006, 03:24 PM

Originally Posted by pat++

ravenz, could you please download EasyWMA demo from http://www.easywma.com and tell me if the app is actually running on Intel? I've just compiled a version in universal binary (ffmpeg is still using rosetta) but I have no idea if it's working or not as I do not have an Intel Mac to test it... Thanks !

Worked perfectly. I launched it both normally and forced it into Rosetta mode - converted a test WMA file. No problems. The application loaded substantially faster normally than it did in forced Rosetta mode.

Screenshots:

http://homepage.mac.com/ravenzachary/PhotoAlbum1.html

pat++ · Jan 15, 2006, 03:53 PM

Originally Posted by ravenz

Worked perfectly. I launched it both normally and forced it into Rosetta mode - converted a test WMA file. No problems. The application loaded substantially faster normally than it did in forced Rosetta mode.

Screenshots:

http://homepage.mac.com/ravenzachary/PhotoAlbum1.html

Thanks a lot for the test !

ravenz · Jan 15, 2006, 04:08 PM

Originally Posted by ravenz

It's somewhat a whoosh sound, but after it starts up, the fan goes silent. The unit is super quiet.

Ok - the house is actually quiet enough now for me to hear the iMac fan. It's a low vibration sound, which would easily be covered up by listening to music at a low volume. I never heard the sound before because there were sounds throughout the house. With kids taking naps, the overall level of background noise has dropped considerably.

UPDATE: With iTunes volume maxxed, and system volume at 50%, the background fan sound cannot be heared at all. Even when the room is quiet, the fan doesn't bother me. Everyone has their own tolerance with this type of sound, so you'll have to experience it for yourself. Having come from an eMac with an insanely loud fan, this is heavenly.

wee_ag · 04:23 PM

Thanks for all the updates with the iMac...

my question is do we have any comparisons between the iMac intel and the PowerMac G5? - I'm debating between the two - or being VERY patient and waiting for the Intel PowerMac

It would be good to see some dul-core PPC vs Intel tests.

Edit: Oh, and over on MacRumors - http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=173183 , someone says XP Windows Media Center Edition has EFI - don't have that layin' around do ya?

tigas · Jan 15, 2006, 04:18 PM

Originally Posted by Drakino

Anyone have a slipstreamed Windows Server 2003 SP1 install disc? Microsoft added some GPT (the disk format) support to it, not sure if they modified the boot, or just enough to read disks added after an install.

Anyone found a way into the EFI interface, ala the Command-Option-O-F on Open Firmware? I have some training docs on EFI somewhere around here that may help depending on what it dumps to.

Windows Server 2003 SP supports GPT drives as data, not system volumes, meaning it can't boot from them.

Anybody tried Command-Option-E-F-I yet?

Ouroboros · Jan 15, 2006, 04:28 PM

I was wondering if you could really push the iMac and force the fan to get louder. The reason I'm asking is that I have a revision A iMac and that thing in my music is so loud at times that it makes it useless in a recording environment. Even if I use garageband with say, four software instrument tracks and a couple of live audio tracks, the processor is at 140F and the fan is running at 4400rpm. It gets so bad that in order to just sit in front of it and work, I have to wear headphones, otherwise my ears hurt! I have it at "reduced performance" all the time and it still goes crazy. So if you could, maybe run garageband and add some software instrument tracks, live tracks, just bog it down and take note of how many tracks, etc you have before the fan kicks in.

This is really important to me so if you do this you I'll really really appreciate it!

Oh, one other thing: what ARE the energy saver options you have? Is it set out automatic? What happens to the fan when you set it at "highest"?? Thanks again!

ravenz · Jan 15, 2006, 04:30 PM

Originally Posted by wee_ag

Oh, and over on MacRumors - http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=173183 , someone says XP Windows Media Center Edition has EFI - don't have that layin' around do ya?

No - I do not have this. I don't want to go buy it ($150) on the chance it will actually boot. Let's hope that someone with both XP Windows Media Center Edition and an iMac Intel posts some info, or...someone who lives in Dallas with a copy of XP Windows Media Center Edition is willing to drive it over to my house!

ravenz · Jan 15, 2006, 04:34 PM

Originally Posted by Ouroboros

I was wondering if you could really push the iMac and force the fan to get louder. The reason I'm asking is that I have a revision A iMac and that thing in my music is so loud at times that it makes it useless in a recording environment. Even if I use garageband with say, four software instrument tracks and a couple of live audio tracks, the processor is at 140F and the fan is running at 4400rpm. It gets so bad that in order to just sit in front of it and work, I have to wear headphones, otherwise my ears hurt! I have it at "reduced performance" all the time and it still goes crazy. So if you could, maybe run garageband and add some software instrument tracks, live tracks, just bog it down and take note of how many tracks, etc you have before the fan kicks in.

This is really important to me so if you do this you I'll really really appreciate it!

Oh, one other thing: what ARE the energy saver options you have? Is it set out automatic? What happens to the fan when you set it at "highest"?? Thanks again!

I don't have Energy Saver settings on this iMac Intel (like I would on a PowerBook). My only level of control is computer/display/hard drive sleep timing.

I was max'ing CPU out with testing Handbrake earlier and it did not increase the fan noise.

HattoriHanzo · Jan 15, 2006, 04:36 PM

The new Intel imac doesnt seem to have the reduced/higest/automatic settings

HattoriHanzo · Jan 15, 2006, 04:37 PM

Originally Posted by ravenz

I was max'ing CPU out with testing Handbrake earlier and it did not increase the fan noise.

what fps did you get?

ravenz · Jan 15, 2006, 04:42 PM

Originally Posted by ravenz

I was max'ing CPU out with testing Handbrake earlier and it did not increase the fan noise.

Handbrake (the Intel build) is geting 28-30fps on DVD conversion. How does this compare?

I posted photos:

http://homepage.mac.com/ravenzachary/PhotoAlbum1.html

Ouroboros · Jan 15, 2006, 04:44 PM

Originally Posted by ravenz

I don't have Energy Saver settings on this iMac Intel (like I would on a PowerBook). My only level of control is computer/display/hard drive sleep timing.

I was max'ing CPU out with testing Handbrake earlier and it did not increase the fan noise.

Hmm... Thanks for that! It is interesting there are no processor settings. It might be that it is all automatically controlled by the processor with respect to heat - isn't that what this chip is designed/good at anyway? Maybe having the user mess with the settings wasn't built into this chip. Thanks for checking!!! If you ever happen to notice fan increase, please take note of it and post, I'm extremely interested. You have eased most of my fears and I thank you for it!!

ravenz · Jan 15, 2006, 04:45 PM

Originally Posted by ravenz

Handbrake (the Intel build) is geting 28-30fps on DVD conversion. How does this compare?

I posted photos:

http://homepage.mac.com/ravenzachary/PhotoAlbum1.html

Someone just emailed me and said the Handbrake forums were discussing performance - the version that is currently available was built without the sse optimizations to make it easier to get working. They expect another bump in performance soon.

These numbers, 28-30fps, should not be taken as the upper limit.

boombashi · Jan 15, 2006, 04:58 PM

Originally Posted by ravenz

Handbrake (the Intel build) is geting 28-30fps on DVD conversion. How does this compare?

I posted photos:

http://homepage.mac.com/ravenzachary/PhotoAlbum1.html

It takes like 4 hours on my Dual G4 450mhz if that's any comparison

Keep em coming - Thanks ravenz!

Oh yeah, how long was your DVD? 4+ hours for a 90min movie on my old G4.

ravenz · Jan 15, 2006, 05:05 PM

Originally Posted by boombashi

It takes like 4 hours on my Dual G4 450mhz if that's any comparison

Keep em coming - Thanks ravenz!

Oh yeah, how long was your DVD? 4+ hours for a 90min movie on my old G4.

2h, and it was going to take about 1h40m to encode.

toddtmw · Jan 15, 2006, 05:05 PM

Well, the handbrake forums has a benchmark section, but they had a hard drive hit a few days ago, so there is no history in the forums. The only benchmark out there is someone complaining that their iMac G5 is so slow. But they were doing h.264 which is DRAMATICALLY slower than mp4 compression. So, if you want to try a more direct comparison, fire Handbrake back up and use these settings:

H.264
AAC
I get just under 10 FPS
Frame size is 720 x 300

See if you do better or worse than the 10 fps this guy was getting...

-Todd

HouseSold · Jan 15, 2006, 05:09 PM

Originally Posted by ravenz

Ok - the house is actually quiet enough now for me to hear the iMac fan. It's a low vibration sound, which would easily be covered up by listening to music at a low volume. I never heard the sound before because there were sounds throughout the house. With kids taking naps, the overall level of background noise has dropped considerably.

UPDATE: With iTunes volume maxxed, and system volume at 50%, the background fan sound cannot be heared at all. Even when the room is quiet, the fan doesn't bother me. Everyone has their own tolerance with this type of sound, so you'll have to experience it for yourself. Having come from an eMac with an insanely loud fan, this is heavenly.

When we use our iMac G5 for surfing and reading or writing at night (nice and quiet-no TV or kid sounds) it is an annoying sound, almost PC tower like.

On our PCs we just would replace the fans with Coolmaster quiet rated (less than 20dba) fans from Frys.
Not so easy on the iMac units.

Time will tell what's acceptable or not (new models). Over time, the iMac iSight G5 20" fan sound (noise) lessened on one of our units, perhaps from settling in somewhat. The sound still annoys us.
We have one 20" iSight G5 iMac which has a soft sound like moving air, almost inaudible, so we know what can be or should have been achieved. The others actually emit a buzzing like a low volume level diesel motor sound.

The round air intake on the rear above the power cord is where the fan sounds exit the iMac G5 iSight models. I did go so far as taking a terrycloth wash cloth and folding it into a ball and wedge it above the power cord and case being careful not to cover the aperture for the cooling fan air intake. This mod elminated about 50% of the reflected noise. (the sounds actually reflect toward the user from the air intake hole, off the aluminum stand base frontwards; this is why it is so audible) Another experiment was a thick piece of felt placed along the front facing aluminum base. it worked also, but less effectively.

My wife reminded me, that we didn't spend this amount of money to re engineer something that could have been caught in field tests and QC by specing out a quiter fan.

For our own evening usage, at arms length, the all in one design makes for being more discerning.

NOTE: We discovered that the 17" iMac G5 iSight models are much quieter, probably due to different case internal air volume size difference in design and air flow. The viewing angles on the 20" are much better, however and that was what we preferred. (compare side by side at Apple Store and web specs)

According to web postings, Apple switched to Philips for the iMac G5 Intel displays. (InteIiMac)
Could it be that all the huff with Samsung over iPod flash memory moved them elsewhere?
The Philips display doesn't seem to spec out as good as the Samsung.
Anybody know or have an idea about this.?

Thanks for sharing your impressions.

ravenz · Jan 15, 2006, 05:12 PM

Originally Posted by toddtmw

Well, the handbrake forums has a benchmark section, but they had a hard drive hit a few days ago, so there is no history in the forums. The only benchmark out there is someone complaining that their iMac G5 is so slow. But they were doing h.264 which is DRAMATICALLY slower than mp4 compression. So, if you want to try a more direct comparison, fire Handbrake back up and use these settings:

See if you do better or worse than the 10 fps this guy was getting...

-Todd

I did not know how to set the frame size, but I matched the other settings and was getting only 5-6fps. Then again, we know this isn't an optimized version of Handbrake for Intel.

toddtmw · Jan 15, 2006, 05:14 PM

I keep all my PC towers in another room so I don't have to listen to the fans. That's not going to be possible when my iMac gets here... Hopefully, it will be quiet enough.

-Todd

toddtmw · Jan 15, 2006, 05:17 PM

Originally Posted by ravenz

I did not know how to set the frame size, but I matched the other settings and was getting only 5-6fps. Then again, we know this isn't an optimized version of Handbrake for Intel.

You have to click the picture settings button. I'm not surprised that it's slower than the G5, without the SSE optimization, the CPU(s) are having to do a lot more work the hard way.

We'll have to wait for the optimized version to get a real feel for what the performance will be. Still, I'm thinking this is better than it would be under rosetta. Speaking of which, if you have some free time and wanted to try running the non-intel version, it might be an interesting comparison...

-Todd

LagunaSol · Jan 15, 2006, 05:52 PM

If you want to talk about noise, you ought to listen to my dual 867 tower. Talk about an annoying pitch. And in the summertime it's almost unbearable.

I've been listening to this thing drone on for over 3 years. I'm literally at the point of losing my mind. I can't wait to dump it and get a quiet iMac, which, believe me, has to be more quiet than this beast sitting on my desk.

My PC is loud too, but doesn't have the whine my PowerMac does. Replacing them both with a new iMac will be heaven.

swatson · Jan 15, 2006, 06:14 PM

FYI - Windows media centre is not for sale/standalone product. It only comes with the purchase of a media center PC.

foo2 · Jan 15, 2006, 06:21 PM

Originally Posted by HattoriHanzo

The 'word on the street' is that only Windows Media Centre supports efi - im sure there will be a patch though.

If anyone has it - check the C drive for a folder called BOOT - it has a file called efi in it. Others do not (Vista beta has it too apparently)

64-bit MS OSs (and Media Center is not 64 bit) support EFI.

Centrino Duo is 32 bit.

I think things aren't going to work until a EFI shim is made.

foo2 · Jan 15, 2006, 06:22 PM

Originally Posted by swatson

FYI - Windows media centre is not for sale/standalone product. It only comes with the purchase of a media center PC.

One can easily purchase it at NewEgg (and thousands of other sales outlets), typically for $100-$150. It's supposed to have something purchased with it (hard drive, screws, etc.) but most don't enforce that. If you want MCE2005, you can easily buy it, legally.

rhashem · Jan 15, 2006, 06:27 PM

Originally Posted by LagunaSol

If you want to talk about noise, you ought to listen to my dual 867 tower. Talk about an annoying pitch. And in the summertime it's almost unbearable.

Is that one of the MMD's? My PowerMac G5 is quiet relative to the G4s (still loud compared to my PC, though), but its aluminum case makes HDD noises really awful. I bought a Raptor for the machine, to use as a boot drive, but I had to take it out because the case amplified the seek noise so much. At the time, I was still waiting for my RAM upgrade to arrive, so the Mac sat their swapping something awful. The seek noise was driving me to the edge before I decided no speedup was worth my sanity

LagunaSol · Jan 15, 2006, 06:34 PM

Originally Posted by rhashem

Is that one of the MMD's? My PowerMac G5 is quiet relative to the G4s (still loud compared to my PC, though), but its aluminum case makes HDD noises really awful. I bought a Raptor for the machine, to use as a boot drive, but I had to take it out because the case amplified the seek noise so much. At the time, I was still waiting for my RAM upgrade to arrive, so the Mac sat their swapping something awful. The seek noise was driving me to the edge before I decided no speedup was worth my sanity

Yep, MDD. Love the small case (compared to the G5), in which I have 2 optical drives and 4 hard drives (no aftermarket brackets necessary; thanks Apple!), but I just can't bear the noise. Listening to the fans changing speeds all the time is annoying. And it goes from "noisy" to "even noisier." There's no period of quiet with this machine.

I'll miss the double opticals and the load of hard drives, but I'll always have bitter memories of the noise.

leery · Jan 15, 2006, 06:44 PM

Originally Posted by HouseSold

The Philips display doesn't seem to spec out as good as the Samsung.
Anybody know or have an idea about this.?

Me too! As far as I can figure out, the 17" display in the Intel iMac is a 6bit-color part. (LG PHLIPS LM171W02 according to kodawarisan.) I plan to do photo editing and bit depth is critical. However, that part has been deleted from LG's web site and I wonder if there will be a change.

I can only surmise that the 20" display is the same panel as found in the Apple Cinema display and the Dell monitor, which are 8bit-color. I don't think LG makes any other panel of that size and that odd resolution, but I don't have a part number.

While we're on the subject, I don't understand why Apple doesn't provide a way to use the iMac as simply a monitor.

Thanks for the noise info on the G5 iMacs. Ergonomics is a big reason why I am contemplating defection after 20 years of DOS and Windows.

leery · Jan 15, 2006, 07:11 PM

Originally Posted by ravenz

The reality is, I'd prefer to run these OS'es in a virtual machine anyway and stay within Mac OS X.

Ditto. Well, speaking for myself, I'm less interested in OS's than the applications that run on them. That goes double for Windows. You'd think that with an x86 CPU, and one that supports virtualization, it should be easier than ever (relatively speaking)?

mduell · Jan 15, 2006, 07:28 PM

Originally Posted by leery

Me too! As far as I can figure out, the 17" display in the Intel iMac is a 6bit-color part. (LG PHLIPS LM171W02 according to kodawarisan.) I plan to do photo editing and bit depth is critical. However, that part has been deleted from LG's web site and I wonder if there will be a change.

I can only surmise that the 20" display is the same panel as found in the Apple Cinema display and the Dell monitor, which are 8bit-color. I don't think LG makes any other panel of that size and that odd resolution, but I don't have a part number.

Apple and Dell use the LG.Philips LCD LM201W01 panel for their stand alone 20" LCDs. IIRC, the 20" iMac G5 used a lower speced monitor (in terms of contrast, response time, and possibly color depth), but that may have only been for the first revision.

ravenz · Jan 16, 2006, 12:52 AM

Originally Posted by ravenz

I did not know how to set the frame size, but I matched the other settings and was getting only 5-6fps. Then again, we know this isn't an optimized version of Handbrake for Intel.

A new Intel build of Handbrake was released this afternoon and h.264 encoding jumped up to 19-21fps for h.264. 3-4x improvement!

d0ubled0wn · Jan 16, 2006, 01:18 AM

Originally Posted by ravenz

Handbrake (the Intel build) is geting 28-30fps on DVD conversion. How does this compare?

I posted photos:

http://homepage.mac.com/ravenzachary/PhotoAlbum1.html

Does Handbreak utilize both processor cores?

ravenz · Jan 16, 2006, 01:23 AM

Originally Posted by d0ubled0wn

Does Handbreak utilize both processor cores?

Good question. If I had a core monitor, I could tell you.

badnewsblair · Jan 16, 2006, 01:28 AM

I was playing World of Warcraft - worked fine (although Ironforge is still a lag prison). WoW Universal Binary will be out in two weeks, and I have high hopes for that.

Wow! That was what I was looking for. This forum is making me think more and more about trading my 1st Gen. 17-inch Powerbook (1 GHz/1 Gig RAM) for the 20-inch Intel iMac!

Stop it guys! My credit card begs you!

mduell · Jan 16, 2006, 01:36 AM

Originally Posted by ravenz

Good question. If I had a core monitor, I could tell you.

Activity monitor should tell you (anything over 100% is using both cores).

Reindeer Flotilla · Jan 16, 2006, 01:41 AM

Originally Posted by swatson

FYI - Windows media centre is not for sale/standalone product. It only comes with the purchase of a media center PC.

Actually, that is not true with Windows MCE 2005. It is an OEM product, but that just means it's not supposed to be sold apart from hardware. That means you can purchase Windows MCE with a heatsink or DVD-RW drive.

rhashem · Jan 16, 2006, 02:52 AM

Originally Posted by mduell

Apple and Dell use the LG.Philips LCD LM201W01 panel for their stand alone 20" LCDs. IIRC, the 20" iMac G5 used a lower speced monitor (in terms of contrast, response time, and possibly color depth), but that may have only been for the first revision.

A different backlight could account for the difference in the specifications. The 2005FPW and the 20" Cinema Display use the same panel, but have slightly different specs due to the backlight.

mduell · Jan 16, 2006, 03:25 AM

Originally Posted by rhashem

A different backlight could account for the difference in the specifications. The 2005FPW and the 20" Cinema Display use the same panel, but have slightly different specs due to the backlight.

As far as I know the backlight only affects the brightness, not the contrast and response time.

rhashem · Jan 16, 2006, 03:41 AM

Originally Posted by mduell

As far as I know the backlight only affects the brightness, not the contrast and response time.

The implementation and consistency of the backlight will affect measured contrast. As for the response time --- the 2005FPW and Cinema display have different response time specs as well. It's due to a difference in precisely what response time is quoted. In any case, according to this thread: http://forums.macrumors.com/showthre...92#post1219992, the 2005FPW, the 20" Cinema Display, and the iMac G5 all use the exact same LG panel.

Mac Heretic · Jan 16, 2006, 05:57 AM

Originally Posted by foo2

One can easily purchase it [Microsoft Media Center Edition] at NewEgg (and thousands of other sales outlets), typically for $100-$150. It's supposed to have something purchased with it (hard drive, screws, etc.) but most don't enforce that. If you want MCE2005, you can easily buy it, legally.

Or you could buy it with the iMac, obviously

.

Yes, I know...