[robhedin]

I'm in something of a quandry and could really use some advice.
We're setting up my wife with a small home-based business. She's pretty much taken over my iBook G3/900, but it really won't work for what she needs. This summer we were lucky enough to be able to attend the keynote at Apple Expo/Paris where my wife fell in love with the new iMac. We've been considering the 20" model, but after actually playing with one at the local Apple Store, I'm not so sure that it will work well enough either. We ran some hands on tests with our own data and it's not the speediest beast in the world. We did the same thing with the PowerMac and were much more impressed, although the PowerMac is much more pricey.
Since this is for business use, and it's a tool, I also configured a high end Dell figuring that at best it would be a wash as far as price is concerned. Unfortunately, that doesn't appear to be the case-- I've configured a Dimension 8400, with 3.6Ghz Pentium 4, 2Gb RAM (2x1Gb, PC3200), 250Gb 7200RPM SATA hard disk, 2 optical drives: one 48x CDRW and one dual layer 16x DVD+RW/+R, Firewire, USB, 10/100/1000 ethernet, audio, 128Mb ATI Radeon x300 video (VGA/DVI/TV out), 17" Flat Panel display, Windows XP SP2, and Microsoft Office for $2411 with free shipping.
While the PC doesn't have iLife, iTunes is free for Windows, Microsoft Movie Maker comes with SP2, and I can get Adobe Photoshop Elements plus Premier to do photo+dvd making for about $150 -- but I've got to buy Office for the Mac at about $400. Garage band is meaningless to me.
So, my quandy: I want the Mac; my wife wants the Mac. We were planning on buying the 20" iMac now, and a PowerMac in January (when she'd start to need more speed). But, emotions aside, the Dell is less expensive, has at least 4 times the RAM, 50% more disk space, a more capable DVD burner, and should provide near the performance of the high end PowerMac But it doesn't look as good and it's running Windows.
I love my PowerMac G4/400 and my iBook G3/900, and my next laptop will be a PowerBook, but in this instance I'm looking for reasons to justify buying the Mac. Help!

[Mafia]

first things first i hate windows.

second, this is for work. you have to do whats best for you and your wife financialy and what will be best for the business. the powermac is a great machine and would def. be a prize to own and use. i think you just need to sit down and think about whether the price is worth the joy of working on os x.

just my two cents

btw i'd buy the mac

[Fellow2000]

I guess it comes down to how much your time is worth.

I use a mac for business, and yes it was more expensive, BUT, in the end, it comes out cheaper.

I figure all the time I would loose in the system crashing, the system locking up, chasing down virii, uninstalling spy-ware and ad-ware, etc...

Don't forget about the regular disk formats or system restore you will have to do to keep the computer running smoothly.

I don't know about you, but the money I would loose spending time fixing my computer rather than using it is not worth it, nor economically wise.

And then just bank on the entire security of this data you are using resting on MS's shoulders.

I realize with a business, price comes down to a major factor. But I would have no problem sitting in front of a corporate boss justifying the costs. I could sell them on it in a heartbeat because I have seen the real results in increased productivity first hand.

Fun factors aside, a mac is really the smart business decision with the tech world as it currently is.

[effgee]

Originally posted by Fellow2000:
*snip*

Magic word™: TCO (total cost of ownership)


The extra cash up front for the Mac hurts, no question about that. But you most definitely should sit down and make an effort to calculate just much time (= $$$) you (or better, your wife) will loose when working with a Windows box. And now matter how you look at it, Windows XP, while catching up to OS X in terms of usability, etc., simply doesn't allow you to work as efficiently and productively as OS X.

For me, the biggest factor is "how fast can I get my work done"

[reader50]

robhedin,

You've compared a 20" G5 iMac and a PowerMac (model not specified), but it sounds like you configured a Dell without running any benchmarks. I'd suggest finding a store or friend that will allow you to test your applications on a PC configured much like the Dell you looked at.

It's not clear from your post what applications you are depending on for business use, or plan to make heavy personal use of. Possibly movie/DVD creation, possibly office productivity work.

If it's movie/DVD stuff, you might try the professional video apps in the Apple Store. I'm under the impression that they are faster than iMovie/iDVD as well as more fully featured. They also cost more of course. Digital media work often benefits greatly from AltiVec, and may run faster on a Mac than on the Dell. Or it could go the other way for your particular needs. Whichever way it goes, you should get a real comparison test rather than compare specs on paper.

If your business use is productivity/Office related, you might give OpenOffice a try. It is a free download for Mac or PC and can read/write MS Office files.

Keeping the wife happy might also be an overriding concern, depending on your personal situation. No advice here.

Let us know what you need to do with your new computer, and we may be able to offer better advice or links to relevant Mac/PC benchmark comparisons on barefeats.

[robhedin]

Thanks for the replies..

I take your points, but there's two issues that I can see.

1) The PowerMac will cost me $2999 + $1299 + $265 + $265 (PowerMac Dual 2.5, plus 20" display, plus 2 1GB DIMMs from Crucial). That works out to
$4824. So for 1/2 the price of the Mac ($2412) I can buy the dell ($2411) today, and in 6 months or a year or whatever get a new machine that's presumably faster/better/whatever and ignore the whole re-install game.

2) This is for the wife, not for me. She's not the most comfrotable person with the computer and simplicity/ease of use is going to be the biggest issue for her.

So I guess it comes down to the how easy to use the software is for both platforms. Assuming $50 to $100 an hour for her time, that means that the Mac would need to save her between 24 and 48 hours in order for it to be economical.

I guess that means that I need to evaluate the S/W for the PC and the Mac in terms of ease of use, as well as determining the actual speed between the two machines. Does anyone know where I can find some hard numbers comparing a 3.6Ghz Pentium to a Dual 2.5?

rob.

[aaanorton]

And don't compare the price of the Macs with Apple installed RAM or other upgrades. These are much cheaper as after-markets purchases.
I run a business on all Macs and I have no idea what I'd do if I were on a PC system. I'm sure I'd have to contract some sort of IT outsourcing company. This is very important.

[robhedin]

Hadn't seen barefeats yet-- that helps alot actually.

I do use OpenOffice, and am reasonably happy with it on Windows, but wasn't aware they had the Cocoa port done yet (am not really happy satisfied running X-Windows). Will have to look into that.

Keeping the wife happy is a "big deal", but I'm mainly concerned with compute intensive tasks (photo manipulation, video editing/encoding, etc). The business side of things should be a wash-- QuckBooks runs everywhere.

What I keep coming back to is picking up the iMac for the short term (get throught the holidays while she's still setting up), then pick up a PowerMac come January and let her use the iMac for normal use and the PowerMac for the heavier stuff. Would that make any sense?

rob.

[aaanorton]

Originally posted by robhedin:
1) The PowerMac will cost me $2999 + $1299 + $265 + $265 (PowerMac Dual 2.5, plus 20" display, plus 2 1GB DIMMs from Crucial). That works out to
$4824. So for 1/2 the price of the Mac ($2412) I can buy the dell ($2411) today, and in 6 months or a year or whatever get a new machine that's presumably faster/better/whatever and ignore the whole re-install game.

You could easily make this a 2.0 G5 (2499) + 20" LCD (1299) + 4 x 256MB RAM (400 from Crucial) and still have an awesome machine with room to grow.

2) This is for the wife, not for me. She's not the most comfrotable person with the computer and simplicity/ease of use is going to be the biggest issue for her.

See my previous post. I find Macs much easier to trouble shoot. And the iLife apps' integration is simply great.

[Doktorfaust]

Did the iMac you tested out have plenty of RAM? I suspect that'd make a lot of difference, esp. if the iMac had only 256 megs or so and you're dealing with large datasets.

I'd be inclined to go with the iMac and add plenty of RAM. I suspect that'd be satisfactory for the next few months.

[Scotttheking]

It helps to list the tasks that the computer will be used for. If it's content creation, knowing the specific applications is important too.
Personally, I avoid dell. Look at something with an Athlon 64 processor in it, you will probably find it's faster (can't say for sure since you don't say what this is for) and cheaper.
Also, ignore the drivel about the computer crashing, and spyware / viruses, etc., it's crap. Keep your AV and patches up to date, use ad-aware, and you'll be fine. When you say office is $400, check which version. Small business isn't nearly that much, for example.

[macaddict0001]

you get what you pay for. To that end dell uses cheeper parts that wear down faster
of course if you're only gonna use it for six months then there isn't much of a danger
also mac's have a much higher resale value so you can get a higher return on your "investment".

and to scotttheking:
that's the point having to upgrade that stuff and use adware is the "downtime".

[Macola]

I've been running a business on Macs for just over 4 years now. I use my Macs for creative work as well as day-to-day stuff. And yes, I also use a PC since a couple of my clients require files that were created on Windows, for various reasons. I also train my clients on both platforms. Having said that, I find OS X a better overall operating system, but XP isn't bad, either, if you know what you're doing.

Your comparison is not entirely accurate, as others pointed out. You'd probably be fine with a dual 1.8, and don't waste your money on Apple displays unless you're doing creative work.

Above all, please don't buy a Dell POS. Build your own PC, and you'll be much happier. Most of my clients who have bought Dell PCs in the past year have had some component fail right out of the box.

[Scotttheking]

Originally posted by macaddict0001:
and to scotttheking:
that's the point having to upgrade that stuff and use adware is the "downtime".

*shudders at the horror of spending 1:45 per month (that's minutes:seconds, btw) doing an adware and virus scan*
Yes, I timed it, and both turned up zero, on a machine that a barely computer literate grandmother uses. FYI, this isn't OSX. You don't have to manually run the updates


To the original poster, what computer you use really depends on what you want to do with it. Do the research, then choose based on what's faster.
When calculating costs, don't forget things that'll come up, like updates to software, which is usually needed if you are dealing with clients who want to give you files made with the newest version of a program, OS updates (Apple likes to kill support for an OS the day the newer one is released), AV updates (AV software is useless if it doesn't have the latest definitions), etc.
Again, I highly recommend avoiding Dell. I've seen too many problems with them, and, without getting into a lengthy processor argument, Intel isn't on top right now, and Dell only uses Intel. As I said before, I recommend something based around the AMD Athlon 64. If you don't know about building machines, I'd suggest looking for a smaller builder, because you WILL want support.

If you have other questions, please, ask.

[Mafia]

Originally posted by Scotttheking:
*shudders at the horror of spending 1:45 per month (that's minutes:seconds, btw) doing an adware and virus scan*
Yes, I timed it, and both turned up zero, on a machine that a barely computer literate grandmother uses. FYI, this isn't OSX. You don't have to manually run the updates

it takes a lot longer to download a diff. service pack every 2 months and then have no computer for a week cause as soon as the sp is installed your whole computer crashes and u gotta roll back and wait for another updated patch meanwhile your system is being infected by the holes in the previous pack. its a pain big time. there are safe and easy ways to run a clean pc. but windows is a hassle and an annoyance. IMO atleast.

[Scotttheking]

Originally posted by Mafia:
it takes a lot longer to download a diff. service pack every 2 months and then have no computer for a week cause as soon as the sp is installed your whole computer crashes and u gotta roll back and wait for another updated patch meanwhile your system is being infected by the holes in the previous pack. its a pain big time. there are safe and easy ways to run a clean pc. but windows is a hassle and an annoyance. IMO atleast.

Wow, you did a pretty good job describing 10.2.8. You forgot about the part where it killed the network cards of some machines, making it so you had to reinstall because you couldn't go online to get the updated patch when it came out, what, 2 weeks later? It also had a very nice effect on laptop batteries.
Windows averages less than one service pack a year, and it's about as likely to go wrong as an Apple service pack is. Your argument holds no weight. Your grammar is quite poor, too.

[robhedin]

Well, the iMac that I used had 1Gb of RAM, but the difference in speed between the iMac and the PowerMac 1.8 was minimal (certainly not enough to justify the price differential) doing the same tasks in iMovie for example (as well as a few other informal tests).

I own 3 other dells, with no problems, but other people have mentioned significant issues with theirs-- but the Dell's got a 3yr next day onsite warrantee, so I'd expect down time to be at most 24 hours. Then again, I've got ProCare and an Apple Store about 10 minutes away so repairs on a Mac should be pretty quick as well.

I wonder if I can rent one for a week or so... you know actually put it to the test in-house and see how it holds up (whether or not the wife really likes it, whether or not it will perform, etc.)

I really do appreciate the feedback.

rob.

[Mafia]

Originally posted by Scotttheking:
Wow, you did a pretty good job describing 10.2.8. You forgot about the part where it killed the network cards of some machines, making it so you had to reinstall because you couldn't go online to get the updated patch when it came out, what, 2 weeks later? It also had a very nice effect on laptop batteries.
Windows averages less than one service pack a year, and it's about as likely to go wrong as an Apple service pack is. Your argument holds no weight. Your grammar is quite poor, too.

this is an online forum please forgive me for not taking the time and effort to produce a perfect piece of writing. my post was understandable and thats all there is to it. I wasn't making an argument i was describing my experiences with both windows and mac. i only switched to mac 14 months ago. for me, windows was horrible every 3 weeks i had to install some 60 mb patch or something that just made the problem worse. and i've used a mac for 14 months a nd never had one software problem. my personal testimony not an argument towards what you said. sorry your took it the wrong way.

[RAILhead]

Originally posted by robhedin:
I'm in something of a quandry and could really use some advice.
We're setting up my wife with a small home-based business. Help!

If it's for work, you can write it off, man. I do it all the time.

Maury

[Al G]

A couple things to consider:

First, there's no comparison between the monitors you have selected for your two systems. A Dell 17" LCD should be less than $400. The Apple 20" is a nice monitor but everyone knows it's overpriced. There's nothing preventing you from using a Dell 17" or Dell 20" or Samsung, Viewsonic, etc. with the Mac and saving a big chunk of money.

Second, I have no doubt this can and will be debated, but I believe a DP2.5 G5 has more raw computing power than a 3.6GHz P4. A DP2.0 or probably even DP1.8 G5 would be a closer match. I'm not talking about the "feel" of the UI here, but raw computing power on CPU-intensive applications. While I personally think that each of the G5 Powermac models are $200-$300 overpriced, my point here is that you're not comparing machines of equivalent power.

[Mafia]

Originally posted by Al G:
The Apple 20" is a nice monitor

yes it is. but he is right i don't see the reason to max out here. why not a dual 1.8 or 2.0 and then a nice 17 inch lcd. thats my set up right now, however i am still saving for the 20 inch cinema display

[macaddict0001]

Originally posted by Scotttheking:
OS updates (Apple likes to kill support for an OS the day the newer one is released)

yeah but its not just apple when was the last time you saw a win 2000 patch, now when was the last time you saw a win 2000 bug on a fully updated machine.