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You are here: MacNN Forums > Community > MacNN Lounge > Do we still need a "Desktop" with an OS?

Do we still need a "Desktop" with an OS? (Page 2)
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qnxde
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Jan 24, 2007, 10:43 AM
 
Originally Posted by goMac View Post
Whatever happened to the option to actually disable the desktop? Early builds of OS X actually had this option on by default. The user had to opt in to having a desktop.
defaults write com.apple.finder CreateDesktop -NO

I use this actually. the only annoying bit is not having a drag target for things you want to save from safari etc..

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willed
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Jan 24, 2007, 11:16 AM
 
Got any better ideas?

That is, apart from a window that shows up all the time behind everything else that is, in essence, the Desktop in all but name?

I think the desktop is still useful. Even if it doesn't correlate with the original metaphor any longer, so what? Just because the mouse isn't like a small rodent in all regards doesn't mean we should get rid of it!
     
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Jan 24, 2007, 11:53 AM
 
Originally Posted by Gamoe View Post
Yes, let's take basic functionality out of the Finder! Why in the world would you "LOVE" to take away a feature that many Mac users use? That's seems rather self-centered.
Because it adds confusion even if everyone uses it.

It should be gone because there are so many better ways of doing it.

I had some really early OS8 copland developer PDF's in the mid 90's that showed Apple was already thinking about doing this.

They wanted the desktop to only show hard drives and removable media. No folders, no icons, no junk. They also played with this in early OSX builds by having CD's show up in the Dock so you don't have to hunt it down on a desktop.

In OSX DP2 (or 3) there was that purple button called single window mode which also tried to help with window clutter in the finder. They couldn't figure out the usability of it though so they scrapped it.

Think of it like this (off the top of my head). when in an app say Safari when you click on the desktop it brings the finder forward but leaves the Safari window covering it. Some people don't notice it so the sit there scratching their head as to why they are looking at a website in Safari but the bookmarks menu is gone. I can't blame them as the only difference visually in this situation is the title of the safari window grays slightly as do the tiny colour buttons. The only indication you are now in the finder is the tiny word "Finder" in the corner. That is horrible horrible interface design. We are all just use to it.

A better way to do it is if you click on the desktop on purpose or mistake NOTHING would happen. When you switch to an app it automatically will "Hide others" (OS7.5 had this AFAIK). If for some reason you want to compare two windows from two apps at the same time THEN you should choose "Show other apps" or "Show App XXX" which you can do from the dock.

When you want to manage files you click on the Finder icon (which also needs to lose its name and non-sensical icon, it should be renamed to Filing cabinet or something friendly like that).
Then All other apps and windows are hidden and all you see is something like frontrow except not 3D. It can show just a few icons in the centre of the screen that lists: Hard Drives, Network and any removable media you have in it. Clicking on say Hard drive brings up a full screen file browser (like Adobe's except pretty) where you can find whatever you are looking for. If you need to MOVE something you can click a button called "Move" which then splits this window in two so you can choose another location. Then you drag things from the left view to the right view. If you don't know what I mean look at how Transmit does it with the split view:
http://www.panic.com/transmit/iWeb+T...reenshot04.jpg

Of course there are a million other things to work out but to me I can see anyone finding it easier to use than the mess the desktop/finder is today.

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Jan 24, 2007, 12:27 PM
 
There is nothing wrong with having the OPtioN to do it either way. Some like it the way it is.
     
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Jan 24, 2007, 01:11 PM
 
What, exactly, is wrong with the Finder? Besides it resisting the default options I choose for how to view my files, I don't really have a problem with it.

Also, what is Expose?
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sek929
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Jan 24, 2007, 01:23 PM
 
I'm no power user, but seriously, the Finder is fine.

I still use 10.3 so maybe they screwed it up in Tiger, but my Finder never freezes or bogs down, even when connected to multiple servers.

Rumor, once you use Exposé you'll wonder how you got along without it.
     
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Jan 24, 2007, 01:42 PM
 
I might use it and not know it. What does it do?
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sek929
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Jan 24, 2007, 01:45 PM
 
It shrinks all the currently open windows to fit separately in your screen. You then pick which window (from any app) and click on it, bringing it to the front. It uses hot corners, I have once set to the shrink, and the other corner hides all windows so I can access my desktop.

Yes SWG, I still love using the desktop.
     
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Jan 24, 2007, 01:50 PM
 
Then I use Expose. I sometimes subconsciously try to do on my XP pc at work.

I always refer to it as hot corners, but now I know it's called Expose, I should no longer be confused.
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besson3c
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Jan 24, 2007, 01:54 PM
 
Originally Posted by Dark Helmet View Post
Back in the NeXT days the desktop just held alias's making it more of a full screen launcher with a couple apps on it. Apple was going to do the same with OSX but because of public outcry they chained their minds.They also tried to kill the Apple menu but again there was all sorts of complaining.

Aliases, not alias's.


I agree with your points, the whole Desktop thing is a weird holdover. I'm still mulling over my preferred solution though...
     
DeeKat
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Jan 24, 2007, 02:01 PM
 
Aren't you guys splitting hairs in four. Only experience and power users might see the inconsistency of the desktop metaphore, but for the average user the desktop is a very simple and convenient metaphore. Even if we know that it's just a folder it give an *apperence* of a real desktop where you can leave stuff that's unclassified; like in real life when i leave unfiled bills and receips scatered on my desk ( unless your very tidy, witch is NOT my case! ) Every couple of days I clean it up. IMHO the desktop is such a compelling and simple metaphore thats its gonna be around for many many years. I for one dont want it to dissapear.

As for the finder, I must ask you guys: why so many people complaining agaist it? I see «FTFF» often on these forums and I dont get it : the Finder is very clean, simple and efficient. With the side bar, I'm two cliks (maybe 3) away from 90% of my files. I might be ignorant but I just dont see what there is to be fixed!

PS: sorry for spelling mistakes i'm french
     
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Jan 24, 2007, 02:04 PM
 
Originally Posted by DeeKat View Post
As for the finder, I must ask you guys: why so many people complaining agaist it? I see «FTFF» often on these forums and I dont get it : the Finder is very clean, simple and efficient. With the side bar, I'm two cliks (maybe 3) away from 90% of my files. I might be ignorant but I just dont see what there is to be fixed!
Well, there's the bug where it forces me to hard reboot if a server goes down. I wouldn't mind having that fixed.
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DeeKat
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Jan 24, 2007, 02:10 PM
 
Well, there's the bug where it forces me to hard reboot if a server goes down. I wouldn't mind having that fixed.
Ok I see. so for the most part «FTFF» refers to a plethora of bug fixing rather then a total redesign?
     
besson3c
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Jan 24, 2007, 02:12 PM
 
Here is what I'm conflicted about.... We have the Dashboard concept, which is a very interesting way of bringing handy things to the fore on demand. We have Spotlight, and we have the Finder and Dock.

To me, Spotlight will never replace the need for a holding place for handy commonly used stuff. It will always be much slower and a big PITA to type stuff in. Spotlight is a search mechanism, to make it anything else would be like bashing a square peg into a round hole.

We have the Dock, which basically reproduces some of what the Dashboard provides, just in a different implementation. Finally, we have the Finder, which is a weird mix of handy app/document launching, file browsing, network share mounting.

What OS X probably needs is a clear central app for all OS handled functions such as mounting a share, logging out, and basic file operations. It is confusing that some of these things are Apple Menu only, some things such as network connectivity are unintuitively Finder operations, and it is confusing that file operations are available when the Desktop/Finder app is in focus, but that there is a distinction between the Desktop and the Finder.

I think Apple needs to break with tradition, and start rethinking each of these sorts of operations and do extensive usability testing on what actually makes sense to novice users. This area definitely needs improvement.
     
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Jan 24, 2007, 02:22 PM
 
Ok here is my guess.

The dock will look more like this with the forground App having a glow or boxed:


The finder or whatever it will be called will be a nicer list view and that little button on the top left is to go back a level. The column view will be a mix of column and icon view.


The whole OS will also be totally fluid with every app launch causing everything else on screen to fly out of the way etc.

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Jan 24, 2007, 02:59 PM
 
I think Apple knows our pain. I think they are currently working on a totally new concept to replace the Finder/Desktop metaphor. This isn't something that they can throw a couple programmers at and have it done in a year. I know its been a problem for many years, but they also have had a few other things to take up their time and resources.

Anyway, I'm willing to bet that Apple won't just come up with a band-aid sort of solution for this problem. They are probably working on something that will change the way we navigate on our desktop computers. Remember, Apple innovates. This is an opportunity to innovate and come up with something no one has thought of, and put themselves so far ahead of Windows that Microsoft will never catch up. I predict a major change to the Finder/Desktop in 10.6.
     
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Jan 24, 2007, 03:10 PM
 
Originally Posted by ::maroma:: View Post
Anyway, I'm willing to bet that Apple won't just come up with a band-aid sort of solution for this problem. They are probably working on something that will change the way we navigate on our desktop computers. Remember, Apple innovates. This is an opportunity to innovate and come up with something no one has thought of, and put themselves so far ahead of Windows that Microsoft will never catch up. I predict a major change to the Finder/Desktop in 10.6.
I'm with you on that but I think we will see it in 10.5. Just in terms of looks and flashiness Vista got OSX beat. It is still ugly and unusable but it makes people want to walk up to it and play with it.

They need to do it with 10.5 so when Vista is just a couple months old Apple intro's something that makes it look 5 years behind and totally old news.

Pretty much exactly how they did it with the Zune and iPhone.

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Jan 24, 2007, 03:24 PM
 
Originally Posted by Dark Helmet View Post
I'm with you on that but I think we will see it in 10.5. Just in terms of looks and flashiness Vista got OSX beat. It is still ugly and unusable but it makes people want to walk up to it and play with it.

They need to do it with 10.5 so when Vista is just a couple months old Apple intro's something that makes it look 5 years behind and totally old news.

Pretty much exactly how they did it with the Zune and iPhone.
I would love for that to happen, I was just basing my timing prediction on what I've heard others say who've been using the betas of 10.5. But yeah, I think its a perfect time to introduce something like this. With the hype that Microsoft is putting around Vista, anything Apple can introduce that will silence all of that would be sweet.
     
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Jan 24, 2007, 03:29 PM
 
Originally Posted by ::maroma:: View Post
I would love for that to happen, I was just basing my timing prediction on what I've heard others say who've been using the betas of 10.5. But yeah, I think its a perfect time to introduce something like this. With the hype that Microsoft is putting around Vista, anything Apple can introduce that will silence all of that would be sweet.
Apple confirmed the iPhone runs 10.5. The iphone's interface looks nothing like 10.5 and is totally fluid and animated. Apple also said it runs core animation etc. If Apple can make that fancy interface in less than 2 years they must have had it on the table for a long time and just simplified it for the iPhone.

Considering the finder hasn't bean touched in the slightest in the most current builds I am sure Apple is just going to junk the whole thing and show us the new method of managing files as one of the "Top secret" features we will learn about soon.

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Jan 24, 2007, 03:49 PM
 
Originally Posted by Dark Helmet View Post
Apple confirmed the iPhone runs 10.5. The iphone's interface looks nothing like 10.5 and is totally fluid and animated. Apple also said it runs core animation etc. If Apple can make that fancy interface in less than 2 years they must have had it on the table for a long time and just simplified it for the iPhone.

Considering the finder hasn't bean touched in the slightest in the most current builds I am sure Apple is just going to junk the whole thing and show us the new method of managing files as one of the "Top secret" features we will learn about soon.
Thats a pretty exciting possibility. So do we think Apple will give us a more in-depth look at 10.5 at WWDC? Or is 10.5 supposed to be out before then?
     
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Jan 24, 2007, 04:06 PM
 
Originally Posted by ::maroma:: View Post
Thats a pretty exciting possibility. So do we think Apple will give us a more in-depth look at 10.5 at WWDC? Or is 10.5 supposed to be out before then?
Way before then. This spring.
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Jan 24, 2007, 04:24 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chuckit View Post
Way before then. This spring.
Cool, I was hoping I wouldn't have to wait that long.
     
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Jan 24, 2007, 04:29 PM
 
Originally Posted by ::maroma:: View Post
Thats a pretty exciting possibility. So do we think Apple will give us a more in-depth look at 10.5 at WWDC? Or is 10.5 supposed to be out before then?
I bet we know for sure in a month, apple has to preview 10.5 before it ships to create hype.

If 10.5 doesn't have an all new finder, seriously updated dock and nicer UI I'm gonna go postal.

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kmkkid
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Jan 24, 2007, 05:11 PM
 
The finder has had new features added, such as grid spacing. Why would Apple add features to something they are 'trashing'? it makes no sense. I think we're stuck with the current finder.
     
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Jan 24, 2007, 05:12 PM
 
Originally Posted by kmkkid View Post
The finder has had new features added, such as grid spacing. Why would Apple add features to something they are 'trashing'? it makes no sense. I think we're stuck with the current finder.
Grid spacing is something that could easily be in the new finder however it works or looks.

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Chuckit
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Jan 24, 2007, 05:30 PM
 
Originally Posted by Dark Helmet View Post
I bet we know for sure in a month, apple has to preview 10.5 before it ships to create hype.

If 10.5 doesn't have an all new finder, seriously updated dock and nicer UI I'm gonna go postal.
I'd bet money it won't have all you're expecting.
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Jan 24, 2007, 05:33 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chuckit View Post
I'd bet money it won't have all you're expecting.
Sweet. How much?

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Kevin
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Jan 24, 2007, 05:38 PM
 
Originally Posted by Dark Helmet View Post
Ok here is my guess..... <snip>
You are just repeating what others have already said or made guesses to on other Mac pages.

Which is fine and all, but if this happens don't come back bumping this thread up acting like you've guessed it all!1 like you did with the iPhone thread.
     
kmkkid
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Jan 24, 2007, 05:50 PM
 
Originally Posted by Dark Helmet View Post
Grid spacing is something that could easily be in the new finder however it works or looks.
You missed the point where the current finder had this implemented. Sure Grid spacing is logical for a new finder, but why would they add it to the old finder?!
     
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Jan 24, 2007, 05:51 PM
 
I am convinced that we will see some big changes in the look of OS X. I don't, however think that we will have a "whole new" finder. I think there will be some significant changes made to it, but not enough to appease the finder-haters.

I would go along with the revamped dock though. I think there will be some serious improvements to it's functionality.
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Jan 24, 2007, 05:53 PM
 
Originally Posted by Kevin View Post
You are just repeating what others have already said or made guesses to on other Mac pages.

Which is fine and all, but if this happens don't come back bumping this thread up acting like you've guessed it all!1 like you did with the iPhone thread.
Ever heard the expression "there's nothing new under the sun"? No one has any original ideas or predictions anymore. Its all based on something else. So I think he's in the right to come back and say his predictions were correct or not. If for nothing else to keep the Lounge amusing.
     
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Jan 24, 2007, 06:00 PM
 
I think that smart folders will play a larger role in the future. They already do for me.

I used them so extensively when I used the BeOS that it seemed like a step back in time to go back to another OS. But then, in the BeOS, everything was a file and the filesystem was a database - "people" "emails", etc. were all just objects in the database with fields.

So you could set up a "smart folder" type thing that was an inbox that held all unread messages - right there on your desktop. Didn't need to open your mail to get to it.

It made the "desktop" much more functional than just a repository for files and folders like it is right now.

I hardly use the Finder - with Quicksilver I do all my launching that way. I'd be more excited about the file browsers within applications getting an overhaul than the Finder. Although it would be nice to see that improve.

Hehe, coverflow view for files. LOL
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Jan 24, 2007, 06:02 PM
 
Originally Posted by ::maroma:: View Post
Ever heard the expression "there's nothing new under the sun"? No one has any original ideas or predictions anymore. Its all based on something else. So I think he's in the right to come back and say his predictions were correct or not. If for nothing else to keep the Lounge amusing.
Actually I have an amazing track record for predictions with Apple. I pretty much nailed the iPhone specs and features a year ago. My MacBook guesses were pretty much 100% and the guesses were against the norm. I knew we would NEVER see a G5 laptop the day the G5 was announced.

I was also the first one to suggest a big interface change was coming in 10.5 over a year ago and listed some ideas:
http://forums.macnn.com/90/mac-os-x/...ur-minds-10-a/

If I am correct and you can find the exact same guesses that came before my posts let me know.

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Jan 24, 2007, 06:17 PM
 
Originally Posted by voodoo View Post
Far from it. I could use the OS 9 Finder while the OS 10 Finder is a joke. Utterly unusable. It's like it was intentionally sabotaged so it would suck.

The OS 9 Finder did what it was supposed to do and did it well.

Note that the Finder is not the OS. There's a difference.

V
I find I can find my files in so many different ways compared to the Classic OS that I'd never go back to how it managed files. So long as Apple just put in some tweaks to improve the overall speed of the Finder for certain operations, I'd be quite happy since its job as a means to find files works insanely well.
     
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Jan 24, 2007, 06:49 PM
 
Originally Posted by Dark Helmet View Post
Why do I drag removable media to the trash to watch it turn into eject?
Shortcuts often seem arbitrary. (CMD-V for paste?) The primary method for ejecting a volume is perfectly consistent: Select the item by clicking it once, then select 'Eject' from the File menu.

I agree the mashed up Dock/Desktop/Finder/Apple Menu- user experience is bloated and somewhat inconsistent, but somehow the main thread of consistency is still there in Finder.

You click once to select an item, then invoke the action from the menubar. That's why you still have an 'Open' item in the File menu and double-clicking is still an arbitrary, secondary shortcut.

Noun -> Verb.
     
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Jan 24, 2007, 07:56 PM
 
Yeah, single click just selects. Except in the Dock. And in the side bar. And in the toolbar. And in folders in column view. But besides those times, it's totally consistent.
     
Gamoe
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Jan 24, 2007, 08:17 PM
 
Originally Posted by Dark Helmet View Post
They wanted the desktop to only show hard drives and removable media. No folders, no icons, no junk. They also played with this in early OSX builds by having CD's show up in the Dock so you don't have to hunt it down on a desktop.
Originally Posted by Dark Helmet View Post
In OSX DP2 (or 3) there was that purple button called single window mode which also tried to help with window clutter in the finder. They couldn't figure out the usability of it though so they scrapped it.
These are again examples of making things neater, but not necessarily more user friendly or better in any way. I like having windows open independently where I last left them. I had it all worked out in pre-Mac OS X days and I had windows in certain places so i could easily copy to or from another or so that I could still see or click on the window while I was working on a document.

Having everything open up in one window can be useful, and should be an option, but it loses the spatial quality of the Finder windows of old. You, and some other Mac users might not appreciate this functionality, but it's there for good reason, and there's no reason it should be ousted just on your dislike of it.

Originally Posted by Dark Helmet View Post
I can't blame them as the only difference visually in this situation is the title of the safari window grays slightly as do the tiny colour buttons. The only indication you are now in the finder is the tiny word "Finder" in the corner. That is horrible horrible interface design. We are all just use to it.
I can see this as a legitimate complaint. But then we're talking about adding better indicators that you're on the Desktop, rather than removing it completely.

Originally Posted by Dark Helmet View Post
A better way to do it is if you click on the desktop on purpose or mistake NOTHING would happen. When you switch to an app it automatically will "Hide others" (OS7.5 had this AFAIK). If for some reason you want to compare two windows from two apps at the same time THEN you should choose "Show other apps" or "Show App XXX" which you can do from the dock.
Yep, I remember this in the "General Preferences" control panel, I think it was. I used it for a while exactly because it "looked neater", but then I realized the functionality that was lost and that looking "neater" wasn't as important as being able to drag and drop to or from the desktop. Still, I have nothing against it becoming an option again.

Originally Posted by Dark Helmet View Post
Of course there are a million other things to work out but to me I can see anyone finding it easier to use than the mess the desktop/finder is today.
I actually do have several major gripes with the Finder, but a lot of them actually have to do with the lack of emphasis on spatial navigation and the now schizophrenic nature of Finder windows which switch one moment from being browser-style windows and another to being Classic-spatial-type windows.

I don't see why Apple can't appease both of us, though. After all, this is software, and we don't have to be stuck with just one way of doing things. As long as they are kept coherent and separated when necessary, there's no reason why we can't have (hopefully, the best of) both worlds.
     
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Jan 24, 2007, 10:22 PM
 
Originally Posted by qnxde View Post
defaults write com.apple.finder CreateDesktop -NO

I use this actually. the only annoying bit is not having a drag target for things you want to save from safari etc..
Cool!

Me likey. I'll have to see how it works without having a drag location for things from Safari. But, I have a Downloads folder in my home directory so I could put that in the Dock and use that as the target for dragging things from Safari. I'll do that and see how it works for me.

Thanks!
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Jan 24, 2007, 11:15 PM
 
Originally Posted by Dark Helmet View Post
Back in the NeXT days the desktop just held alias's making it more of a full screen launcher with a couple apps on it. Apple was going to do the same with OSX but because of public outcry they chained their minds.They also tried to kill the Apple menu but again there was all sorts of complaining.

Today the only thing I use the Apple menu for is to reach system preferences and to log out.

On 100% of Mac's I see the desktop is nothing but a glorified launch bar and junkyard of files. It seems the only thing it is used for is to quickly save files you don't know where else to put or are too lazy to file.

I for one would LOVE it if the desktop was dead for anything other than a pretty background. A new improved finder can do everything it can do (which isn't much) and actually make things easier to use and neater.

5 years ago I wouldn't have said the same as easily but I have just resented the Finder and desktop in OS9 and OSX. I see Mac users that have had a computer for 5 years and when I tell them to click on the "Desktop" or "Finder" they are like huh? I can't blame them as if they have an app running and click on the desktop it keeps the app windows where they are and only changes one tiny word on the top right to indicate you are now in the Finder. The next thing they do is minimize all the foreground windows so they can see the whole desktop. Yes there is expose and "hide others" but damn if I see the average person use it.

It is definitely the hardest part of the OS to use and understand and it needs to die.
Originally Posted by Dark Helmet View Post
Again, picture a finder window taking up the whole screen with a sidebar with this amazing folder that saves you just have to put all your stuff in.

In regards to Wallpaper/desktop Windows, Mac. How does it makes sense to put a "Desktop picture" on something called the Finder?

Apple was also going to change the "Finder" to "Desktop" in the early OSX betas.
Originally Posted by voodoo View Post
The Finder is so badly implemented in OS X that I hardly ever use it. The Apple menu is neutered. Everything is slow and freeze prone. Networking sucks. The Finder sucks. The Desktop is a folder.

It is the biggest, ugliest and most inconsitent mess ever made by Apple.

I think it should all be redone. Since I need a file browser, I wouldn't want it killed.

Oh and Skywalker: The OS 9 and OS 10 Finder are of no relation, except the name.

V
OK. I've read most of the thread and I think I see the problem....

Non-Power users are saying that finder/desktop are perfect as they are.

but Power users are saying that finder and the desktop are old, buggy and needing to be replaced.

so...... why not 2 different versions of Finder?

one called Finder (like what we see in 10.5 previews) and Power Finder (or what ever you want to call it) that doesn't have a desktop and is better at networking, connecting to servers, etc...

when you install 10.5 you can choose which finder you want, one or the other or both (incase you want to switch back and forth) and in Sys Prefs you could switch between the 2

what do you think?

PS, Voodoo: I have also had that problem. But rarely tho. Sometimes finder freezes when connecting to my file server

I guess I fall inbetween Non- and Power user

Originally Posted by DeeKat View Post
Aren't you guys splitting hairs in four. Only experience and power users might see the inconsistency of the desktop metaphore, but for the average user the desktop is a very simple and convenient metaphore. Even if we know that it's just a folder it give an *apperence* of a real desktop where you can leave stuff that's unclassified; like in real life when i leave unfiled bills and receips scatered on my desk ( unless your very tidy, witch is NOT my case! ) Every couple of days I clean it up. IMHO the desktop is such a compelling and simple metaphore thats its gonna be around for many many years. I for one dont want it to dissapear.

As for the finder, I must ask you guys: why so many people complaining agaist it? I see «FTFF» often on these forums and I dont get it : the Finder is very clean, simple and efficient. With the side bar, I'm two cliks (maybe 3) away from 90% of my files. I might be ignorant but I just dont see what there is to be fixed!

PS: sorry for spelling mistakes i'm french
( Last edited by C.A.T.S. CEO; Jan 24, 2007 at 11:26 PM. )
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Jan 24, 2007, 11:21 PM
 
I do quite a bit with my computers (some might say 'power user') and I'm fine with the current desktop arrangement, but I agree that more choices are better. Apple could make it easy to customize this sort of thing in Leopard, I think.
     
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Jan 25, 2007, 01:55 AM
 
Originally Posted by C.A.T.S. CEO View Post
so...... why not 2 different versions of Finder?:
Apple did this already with OS 7.5 with that launcher app.

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Jan 25, 2007, 03:21 AM
 
Originally Posted by C.A.T.S. CEO View Post
OK. I've read most of the thread and I think I see the problem....

Non-Power users are saying that finder/desktop are perfect as they are.

but Power users are saying that finder and the desktop are old, buggy and needing to be replaced.

so...... why not 2 different versions of Finder?

[...snip...]

I guess I fall inbetween Non- and Power user
Well, I'm a so called "Power User", and while I do advocate a major overall of the Finder, I do not advocate taking out the Finder's spatial navigation elements (windows and icons remembering their positions, etc.)

What you say might come to be. I do remember Steve specifically said one day there might be multiple Finders. That would be marvelous. However, when has Apple actually offered us so much choice, specifically in interface options? I mean, we can't even skin Mac OS X out of the box, much less choose another Finder.

I'm afraid that while this would be marvelous, it's much more likely that Apple will just shove down our throats whatever their new interface fancy is, whether truly better than the old or not. And it seems to me that Apple is moving away from the sound interface ideals I believe in and not really putting out anything new.

BTW:

Column view was available in the Lisa.

The dock we all know came from NeXT.

Disappearing window scroll bars were considered when the Mac UI was first designed, but it was decided that such an important interface element shouldn't disappear as such, which is a sound human UI guideline.

Single window browsing has been around as long as windows (maybe even longer, if you can conceive a screen as a window).

These aren't new ideas or even particularly new or innovative implementations. Most of them were considered before and rejected for not being particularly good UI design.

That said, new options are not bad, but Apple needs to start being consistent, coherent and serious with their UI design, like they were in times of old.
     
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Jan 25, 2007, 04:29 AM
 
Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton View Post
Yeah, single click just selects. Except in the Dock. And in the side bar. And in the toolbar. And in folders in column view. But besides those times, it's totally consistent.
I hear you and think that this highlights how the UI team is a bit lost.

They would likely argue that most of these instances should be considered buttons, which you click one to invoke an action. This was actually very apparent in Launcher, which made sure its single-click items really looked like big buttons.

These items you mention fail to convey the information of what they are. People try to drag things and get an unexpected *poof*, for example. A sidebar click actually selects an item (click 'applications' and do a 'get info', works) while the vaguely similar Dock doesn't.

And the one button opening of folders but not files in column view, which works, is yet different. Selecting a folder and then choosing 'Open' is available, but does nothing, heh.
     
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Jan 25, 2007, 08:06 AM
 
Originally Posted by ::maroma:: View Post
Ever heard the expression "there's nothing new under the sun"? No one has any original ideas or predictions anymore. Its all based on something else. So I think he's in the right to come back and say his predictions were correct or not. If for nothing else to keep the Lounge amusing.
I am just saying, reading ideas and thoughts on how OS X is gonna look, then coming here and making "predictions" based on the ideas you read is just you repeating what others came up with. It isn't him guessing these features. It's just him repeating what others have said. ANYONE can do that.
     
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Jan 25, 2007, 08:09 AM
 
Originally Posted by Dark Helmet View Post
Actually I have an amazing track record for predictions with Apple. I pretty much nailed the iPhone specs and features a year ago.
You mean the SAME features that every other Mac "rumors" pages where ALSO predicting? There is nothing amazing about that SWG. That is just repeating the obvious.
I was also the first one to suggest a big interface change was coming in 10.5 over a year ago and listed some ideas:
http://forums.macnn.com/90/mac-os-x/...ur-minds-10-a/
You were the FIRST PERSON IN THIS FORUM to do so. But MAJOR GUI Changes like you were talking about had had already been discussed for MONTHS before you made the post. And I know you read these Mac sites. Why? Because you've copied and pasted directly from them.

I am not talking about anyone in THESE forums. You've copied word for word OTHER PEOPLE'S ideas from other sites, then acted like they were your own.

That comes off as a bit pretentious. A more HONEST approach would be to give credit to the original site you read these things from.
     
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Jan 25, 2007, 08:18 AM
 
Originally Posted by Jim Paradise View Post
I find I can find my files in so many different ways compared to the Classic OS that I'd never go back to how it managed files. So long as Apple just put in some tweaks to improve the overall speed of the Finder for certain operations, I'd be quite happy since its job as a means to find files works insanely well.
The OS 10 Finder hasn't changed in any fundamental way since Mac OS X 10.0.0. Spotlight and other add-ons are not part of the Finder.

The Finder is not the OS and the Finder is not the various little apps and patches Apple has introduced through the years on OS X.

The Finder in OS 9 has more different ways approach a file than the Finder in OS 10. Not the other way around. The OS 9 Finder with all the add-ons such as Spotlight etc. would be pretty damn perfect.

V
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Jan 25, 2007, 10:15 AM
 
Originally Posted by voodoo View Post
The OS 9 Finder with all the add-ons such as Spotlight etc. would be pretty damn perfect.

V
In 2003 maybe but if it was like that today it would look even more prehistoric.

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Jan 25, 2007, 02:30 PM
 
Originally Posted by Gamoe View Post
Well, I'm a so called "Power User", and while I do advocate a major overall of the Finder, I do not advocate taking out the Finder's spatial navigation elements (windows and icons remembering their positions, etc.)

What you say might come to be. I do remember Steve specifically said one day there might be multiple Finders. That would be marvelous. However, when has Apple actually offered us so much choice, specifically in interface options? I mean, we can't even skin Mac OS X out of the box, much less choose another Finder.

I'm afraid that while this would be marvelous, it's much more likely that Apple will just shove down our throats whatever their new interface fancy is, whether truly better than the old or not. And it seems to me that Apple is moving away from the sound interface ideals I believe in and not really putting out anything new.
I agree that Apple should open up themeing too (with all of the switchers coming who might get mad). I don't advocate taking things away from Finder (other than what people are talking about getting rid of in this thread) but improving on Finder.
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Jan 25, 2007, 03:04 PM
 
Originally Posted by Dark Helmet View Post
In 2003 maybe but if it was like that today it would look even more prehistoric.
I'm not talking about looks. Looks and eye candy are too gay for me. I want functionality over glimmer.

V
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Jan 25, 2007, 03:11 PM
 
Originally Posted by voodoo View Post
I'm not talking about looks. Looks and eye candy are too gay for me. I want functionality over glimmer.

V
Ya, all the straight guys use DOS.

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