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Arizona bans ethnic studies - and it begins™ (Page 3)
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olePigeon
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May 13, 2010, 04:26 PM
 
Originally Posted by BadKosh View Post
By and large, the original US was mostly White Europeans and by percentage were the one mostly responsible for the progress and success of the US.
So you're complaining about interjecting race, while simultaneously claiming that white people are mostly responsible for the progress and success of the U.S.

Do you think the U.S. would be where it is if it weren't for slave labor? Exploitation of immigrant workers? Exploitation of child labor?

Originally Posted by BadKosh View Post
Adding that a Black man did X and an Asian woman did Y etc is interjecting race. Adding in the Race or culture doesn't change what they did. It's you that is delusional. Don't try to add any more than what I stated.
There are still racial and gender barriers in many job markets. Showing specific examples to children and young adults helps build confidence, and to not see their race, ethnicity, or gender as a detriment to their success.

A young Iranian woman immigrant, for example, would probably benefit greatly from a Women's Studies course that emphasizes on successful women throughout history.
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May 13, 2010, 04:40 PM
 

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OAW
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May 13, 2010, 05:20 PM
 
Originally Posted by BadKosh View Post
By and large, the original US was mostly White Europeans ...
A keen observation of the obvious.

Originally Posted by BadKosh
... and by percentage were the one mostly responsible for the progress and success of the US.
This is undoubtedly a true statement. Though probably not as much as you'd like to believe. The fact of the matter is that due to the United State's "peculiar institution" the credit for many accomplishments does not lie where it's due. Especially when it comes to popular perception. The construction of the US Capitol being but one example. And let's not even get into the plethora of patents (and the economic benefits that ensued) that were awarded to the "owner" by law when the invention was actually made by the "owned".

In any event, you are arguing a point that's not in dispute. No one said there was something wrong with the MAJORITY of the accomplishments covered in "American" history/literature/etc. classes being those of European-Americans. Least of all me. The issue is that virtually ALL of them are. More after the break ....

Originally Posted by BadKosh
Adding that a Black man did X and an Asian woman did Y etc is interjecting race. Adding in the Race or culture doesn't change what they did. It's you that is delusional. Don't try to add any more than what I stated.
Only in the mind of a conservative is a situation where a country that has a 30-40% minority population ... yet the school curricula have typically focused 99-100% on the accomplishments of the majority population considered to be OK. Such curricula focus on European-Americans well above and beyond their percentage of the overall population .... and either completely exclude non-white Americans or give them negligible attention at best. But that's cool. And then when people make the most reasonable observation that school curricula (history, literature, art, etc) should more accurately and proportionally reflect ALL THE PEOPLE .... that is then twisted into "interjecting race" into the situation. The bottom line is that the educational system in the US has "interjected race" into the situation from Day 1. Any time a system goes out of its way to EXCLUDE or minimize the accomplishments of large segments of its people then that right there is where the problem lies. Pointing out this fact and demanding inclusion reflects simple fairness, accuracy, and common sense. Case in point ....

1 out of 3 "cowboys" in the Old West were African-American, Native American, or Mexican. African-Americans were 25% of all cowboys alone. But one wouldn't get that impression from studying "The Westward Expansion" in US History 101. And one damned sure wouldn't get that impression from TV or Hollywood movies. So the issue isn't that "John Wayne" gets coverage. The issue is that "John Wayne" is the only one who gets coverage ... when the reality is that he was NOT the only one involved.

So again ... the fundamental reason why "Ethnic Studies" courses even exist is because by and large this continues to be the reality even to this day. And if it weren't for such courses, the accomplishments of non-white Americans would get little to no focus at all. So to advocate the elimination of "Ethnic Studies" courses ... while at the same time saying and doing nothing about the status quo of "American" history/literature/etc. courses ... is definitely quite problematic. I really fail to see why this is such a difficult concept for your to comprehend.

OAW
( Last edited by OAW; May 13, 2010 at 06:08 PM. )
     
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May 13, 2010, 05:28 PM
 
Originally Posted by SpaceMonkey View Post
The pattern continues unabated it seems. Where there's smoke ....



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May 13, 2010, 06:03 PM
 
Originally Posted by BadKosh View Post
By and large, the original US was mostly White Europeans and by percentage were the one mostly responsible for the progress and success of the US.
Well, that's a loaded statement.

How do you define progress? How do you define success? Care to provide some examples of progress and success and the White Europeans who were responsible for them? A simple list of names is sufficient.
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May 13, 2010, 06:44 PM
 
It's like this peeps:

- Learning about other cultures is good.

- Taking a course in white history because you're white or in latino history because you're latino or black history because you're black is divisive.

It's not that hard to figure out. Seriously. To figure out whether any of these programs are racist, simply exchange whatever ethnic minority is mentioned (i.e. latino) with "white" and see how you feel about it.

Teach everybody everything. Roll the black and latino and native history into the main. If that's too much for some people, then tell them to get out of university and go flip burgers, where they belong.
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May 13, 2010, 07:21 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
It's like this peeps:

- Learning about other cultures is good.

- Taking a course in white history because you're white or in latino history because you're latino or black history because you're black is divisive.

It's not that hard to figure out. Seriously. To figure out whether any of these programs are racist, simply exchange whatever ethnic minority is mentioned (i.e. latino) with "white" and see how you feel about it.

Teach everybody everything. Roll the black and latino and native history into the main. If that's too much for some people, then tell them to get out of university and go flip burgers, where they belong.
And I don't know if you're willfully ignoring this, or you just don't understand it, but these courses are electives. Everyone can take them. Latino studies courses aren't only for Latinos. So they don't meet your "divisive" criteria. It's your idea that learning about world from these different perspectives is necessarily "divisive" that is insulting to our intelligence (and, oddly, kind of racially deterministic), not your straw man that the argument is somehow about whether people can "handle" whatever the 'normal' curriculum would be. Normal people can talk about racial or ethnic identities without inciting racism.
( Last edited by SpaceMonkey; May 13, 2010 at 07:27 PM. )

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May 13, 2010, 07:32 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
It's like this peeps:

- Learning about other cultures is good.
Originally Posted by Doofy
Teach everybody everything. Roll the black and latino and native history into the main. If that's too much for some people, then tell them to get out of university and go flip burgers, where they belong.
On these parts of your statement we agree my friend.

The only problem is ... that's not the way it is over here across the pond.

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May 13, 2010, 08:20 PM
 
Originally Posted by SpaceMonkey View Post
And I don't know if you're willfully ignoring this, or you just don't understand it, but these courses are electives. Everyone can take them. Latino studies courses aren't only for Latinos.
Right. So all that bumpf about latino history giving latino students "educational sovereignty" on that link earlier didn't exist then. I must be becoming dyslexic in my old age or something. Good to know.
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May 13, 2010, 08:22 PM
 
Originally Posted by BadKosh View Post
Like patriotism?
No, like trying to use the government to enforce Christian values.

Except conservatives don't want to be taken care of by the government.
Oh, they absolutely do. They want the government to protect them from homosexuals, evolution, academics, environmentalists and people who don't like war.
     
SpaceMonkey
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May 13, 2010, 08:26 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
Right. So all that bumpf about latino history giving latino students "educational sovereignty" on that link earlier didn't exist then. I must be becoming dyslexic in my old age or something. Good to know.
Since you expanded this to generalities, I was responding in kind, as the thread had taken a turn to generally bashing "ethnic studies." But to your point about this specific Tucson program, I would say that the context is a bit different because there is probably a much higher percentage of Mexican-American students in these schools than there are in the general, national population. Different audience, so it's more appropriate to market a course specifically for them. In addition, "educational sovereignty" does not mean, as you implied, that to do otherwise would be "too much for some people."

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Doofy
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May 13, 2010, 08:31 PM
 
Originally Posted by SpaceMonkey View Post
Since you expanded this to generalities, I was responding in kind, as the thread had taken a turn to generally bashing "ethnic studies." But to your point about this specific Tucson program, I would say that the context is a bit different because there is probably a much higher percentage of Mexican-American students in these schools than there are in the general, national population. Different audience, so it's more appropriate to market a course specifically for them.
...which is what's being targeted by TPTB, as per the thread OP.
I don't see how the thread has taken a turn to "generally bashing ethnic studies" when that's what the thread started about.
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Wiskedjak
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May 13, 2010, 08:46 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
It's like this peeps:

- Learning about other cultures is good.

- Taking a course in white history because you're white or in latino history because you're latino or black history because you're black is divisive.
Agreed 100%
     
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May 13, 2010, 09:19 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
...which is what's being targeted by TPTB, as per the thread OP.
I don't see how the thread has taken a turn to "generally bashing ethnic studies" when that's what the thread started about.
Then I don't think you've been paying attention to the thread.

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Doofy
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May 13, 2010, 09:31 PM
 
Originally Posted by SpaceMonkey View Post
Then I don't think you've been paying attention to the thread.
This thread? The one entitled "Arizona bans ethnic studies ..."?
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May 14, 2010, 05:46 AM
 
Originally Posted by Wiskedjak View Post
No, like trying to use the government to enforce Christian values.


Oh, they absolutely do. They want the government to protect them from homosexuals, evolution, academics, environmentalists and people who don't like war.
Stereotypes and urban legends. can I then highlight the social engineering, emotion driven causes and pop-science the far left wants us to believe? You are assuming most conservatives are also religious nut-jobs which is incorrect. Again you are falling for the propaganda the MSM and the Dems have been repeating for decades. Why do you think their viewership/readership is down so far? People stop listening when they've been lied to.
     
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May 14, 2010, 08:40 AM
 
Originally Posted by BadKosh View Post
You are assuming most conservatives are also religious nut-jobs which is incorrect. Again you are falling for the propaganda the MSM and the Dems have been repeating for decades.
You're absolutely right. What's sad, though, is that while you're pointing that out to me when I use your exact word, you aren't able to see that you're doing *the exact same thing*! You're assuming most liberals engage in social engineering based on stereotypes.

*You* are falling for the propaganda of *your* MSM and the Republicans.
     
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May 14, 2010, 09:50 AM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
This thread? The one entitled "Arizona bans ethnic studies ..."?
Yes. You're familiar with how conversations generally meander, right? Here is a sample from the first page, where we veered into a more general discussion of the worth of "ethnic studies":

Originally Posted by Doofy
Example: Native americans I've encountered seem to think that the white man brought war to the continent and that everything was lovely and peaceful beforehand. Like tribes weren't at war with each other. This is what these programs teach.
Originally Posted by olePigeon
You don't think it's important for people to learn about their ethnic past?
Originally Posted by Doofy
And this is the problem - you know your ethnic makeup (probably) down to the sixteenth. Racism only goes away when people stop thinking of themselves as "half this, half that" - until such a point, people tend to use their ethnicity as a label, which self-alienates or alienates others.
Originally Posted by Doofy
Yes. All of these classes are designed to purposefully split the population in order to feed leftist political parties. They can't campaign on "destroying racism" if it's already destroyed.
Originally Posted by Orion27
Black history month makes no sense. What other ethnic group embarrasses itself with such self pity.
I work with inner city truants in a group home setting so trust me when I say racism is alive and well
in the black community. It's quite literally their ball and chain.
Originally Posted by Doofy
The point is that you'll never get rid of racism until you get rid of "ethnic studies".

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May 14, 2010, 10:02 AM
 
Originally Posted by SpaceMonkey View Post
Yes. You're familiar with how conversations generally meander, right? Here is a sample from the first page, where we veered into a more general discussion of the worth of "ethnic studies":
The OP subject poses a question: Do ethnic studies cause division?
Since this question is implied in the OP, we haven't veered.
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May 14, 2010, 10:13 AM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
The OP subject poses a question: Do ethnic studies cause division?
Since this question is implied in the OP, we haven't veered.
I'm not saying the way that the conversation evolved is wrong or something. What are you trying to say? I made some points about why ethnic studies are worthwhile and do not necessarily incite racism, and you countered that this particular Tuscon program does. I said I was responding to other, more general points made, and you appealed to the thread title, as if that more general conversation is not worth having and I'm trying to change the subject or something, even though, as I just showed, you yourself are partly responsible for taking it in that more general direction. Now you're not accusing me of trying to change the subject? It seems like you are just writing to be argumentative at this point. Stop it.

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Doofy
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May 14, 2010, 10:24 AM
 
Originally Posted by SpaceMonkey View Post
I'm not saying the way that the conversation evolved is wrong or something. What are you trying to say? I made some points about why ethnic studies are worthwhile and do not necessarily incite racism, and you countered that this particular Tuscon program does. I said I was responding to other, more general points made, and you appealed to the thread title, as if that more general conversation is not worth having and I'm trying to change the subject or something, even though, as I just showed, you yourself are partly responsible for taking it in that more general direction. Now you're not accusing me of trying to change the subject? It seems like you are just writing to be argumentative at this point. Stop it.
I don't understand what you just wrote. Can you put it in bulleted list format with footnotes please?

This thread is about the worth of ethnic studies programs and whether they're divisive or not. That's what I've been discussing.
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May 14, 2010, 10:33 AM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
Teach everybody everything. Roll the black and latino and native history into the main. If that's too much for some people, then tell them to get out of university and go flip burgers, where they belong.
EXACTLY. It was the combined Americans from all over that made our country great. Splitting us up into groups so the libs can keep score or whatever is the wrong path. The work the Chinese did in building the railroads in the west as rich white railroad owners bankrupt themselves trying to complete it with the help of Scottish and Indian surveyors and African and Slavic woodsmen cut ties and Irish and Slavic iron and steel workers producing rail so Scottish and English Locomotives could bring products grown by black former slaves and Irish and sold by Jewish produce salesmen is just a small illustration of the intermingling of new American's as we built the US.
     
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May 14, 2010, 10:57 AM
 
Originally Posted by BadKosh View Post
EXACTLY. It was the combined Americans from all over that made our country great. Splitting us up into groups so the libs can keep score or whatever is the wrong path. The work the Chinese did in building the railroads in the west as rich white railroad owners bankrupt themselves trying to complete it with the help of Scottish and Indian surveyors and African and Slavic woodsmen cut ties and Irish and Slavic iron and steel workers producing rail so Scottish and English Locomotives could bring products grown by black former slaves and Irish and sold by Jewish produce salesmen is just a small illustration of the intermingling of new American's as we built the US.

Really??!?

Did a different BadKosh write the following one page back?
Originally Posted by BadKosh View Post
By and large, the original US was mostly White Europeans and by percentage were the one mostly responsible for the progress and success of the US.
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May 14, 2010, 11:12 AM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
I don't understand what you just wrote. Can you put it in bulleted list format with footnotes please?

This thread is about the worth of ethnic studies programs and whether they're divisive or not. That's what I've been discussing.
And that's what I responded to. So why were you accusing me of changing the subject, as if we were talking only about the AZ program?

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Doofy
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May 14, 2010, 11:19 AM
 
Originally Posted by SpaceMonkey View Post
So why were you accusing me of changing the subject
Show me where I did that. Quote me.
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SpaceMonkey
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May 14, 2010, 11:28 AM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
Show me where I did that. Quote me.
Come on. I made a point about ethnic studies being of worth to more than just a target ethnic group.

Then you said: "Right. So all that bumpf about latino history giving latino students "educational sovereignty" on that link earlier didn't exist then."

I said: "Since you expanded this to generalities, I was responding in kind, as the thread had taken a turn to generally bashing "ethnic studies." But to your point about this specific Tucson program, I would say that the context is a bit different because there is probably a much higher percentage of Mexican-American students in these schools than there are in the general, national population. Different audience, so it's more appropriate to market a course specifically for them."

You said: "...which is what's being targeted by TPTB, as per the thread OP.
I don't see how the thread has taken a turn to "generally bashing ethnic studies" when that's what the thread started about. "

I interpreted that response as you saying the thread was about something more specific, and so my more general point was off topic "per the thread OP." Your further response "This thread? The one entitled "Arizona bans ethnic studies ..." reinforced that.

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Doofy
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May 14, 2010, 11:39 AM
 
I'm sorry Spacey, this is a delusion you've cooked up all by yourself. I showed you an example of how ethnic studies is being used to create identity politics and the division that comes with it. Nothing more, nothing less.

I'm still waiting for that quote from me accusing you of changing the subject.
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May 14, 2010, 11:47 AM
 
Originally Posted by Wiskedjak View Post
You're absolutely right. What's sad, though, is that while you're pointing that out to me when I use your exact word, you aren't able to see that you're doing *the exact same thing*! You're assuming most liberals engage in social engineering based on stereotypes.

*You* are falling for the propaganda of *your* MSM and the Republicans.
Just daily observations. I'm not a repub either. Classify me a Constitutional Conservative.
     
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May 14, 2010, 11:51 AM
 
Originally Posted by dcmacdaddy View Post
Really??!?

Did a different BadKosh write the following one page back?
No.
     
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May 14, 2010, 04:00 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
This thread is about the worth of ethnic studies programs and whether they're divisive or not. That's what I've been discussing.
Originally Posted by Doofy
Taking a course in white history because you're white or in latino history because you're latino or black history because you're black is divisive.
On this issue of "divisiveness" .....

I suppose it comes down to what one means by that. If by this one means taking an "ethnocentric" approach to education then I agree wholeheartedly. OTOH, if one means studying one's own culture in the Socratic tradition of "Know Thyself" .... as one aspect of a broader education that includes all relevant cultures ... then I would have to disagree. There's nothing "divisive" about XYZ-American students taking an interest in and learning about XYZ history because they are XYZ. And that applies whether XYZ is African, Latino, Asian, Jewish, European, or whatever. Indeed we are all "American" ... but that is a nationality/culture that comprises various ethnic groups and sub-cultures. And no one ethnic group has a corner on the market when it comes to defining what "American" history is. It is the amalgamation of the contributions from ALL of its people. Again, I'm much more interested in what such a course IS as opposed to what it is CALLED. And the problem has been that the US educational system since its inception has treated "American History 101" as almost exclusively the history of European-Americans. That is a fact ... even to this day. So IMHO ... if ANYTHING is "divisive" that is. As I said earlier, the only reason "Ethnic Studies" programs even exist is because of this fundamental reality.

::::::::::: The remainder of this post is directed at those who take issue with "Ethnic Studies" courses in general and not Doofy in particular :::::::::::::::

So this is the issue that I have with those of you who are on the other side when it comes to this topic. You guys get all worked up over an elective "Ethnic Studies" course ... when the mandatory "American History 101" is NOT what it's supposed to be. You want to ban the "Ethnic Studies" course ... but you are as quiet as a church mouse when it comes to the fact that the coverage of non-European people in "American History 101" is negligible at best. You CLAIM that "American History 101" should just teach everybody about everything ... but you DO NOTHING to bring that about. You seem QUITE CONTENT with the status quo. And I must say that I find it a bit comical (and borderline depressing) to find myself in the midst of the same debate that I had many years ago as a young college student. It didn't really matter what the particular topic was because the underlying issue was the same. You guys get waaaaaay more up in arms about what something is CALLED than you do about what it IS.

Oh wait, I'm having a flashback!! .....

Random white student/faculty member/administrator (usually conservative, but by far not always): Why did you press the Administration to offer an African-American Poetry class? What if there was a European-American Poetry class? You would be saying that's racist!

OAW: I wouldn't say a European-American Poetry class is racist. I would say it's redundant. You'll recall that we took the same "American Poetry 101" class ... and we didn't cover a single African-American (or Latino-American or Asian-American) author. Not one. Zip. Zilch. Nada. So in all actuality "American Poetry 101" is "European-American Poetry" ... it doesn't matter what you call it. I'm just saying ...

Random white student/faculty member/administrator: Yeah but you guys have that Black Student Union organization. If there was a White Student Union you guys would be having a fit!

OAW: Ok ... I understand where you are coming from. But consider this. African-Americans make up 1/2 of 1% of the student body. There are a grand total of 2 faculty members and 0 administrators. So the purpose of the BSU is to focus on the academic and social needs of the fledgling black student population. A population that the university itself considers to be "non-traditional students". The fact of the matter is that the university's resources and structure are predominantly geared toward its "traditional students". And given the numbers, that's not surprising. So the BSU promotes programs to recruit and retain African-American students ... because as much as you might not care to acknowledge it ... being a speck of pepper in a sea of salt has its unique set of challenges. It promotes social functions for the black student population .... because sometimes we want to dance and party to some R&B and not just stand around and drink out the keg to some Madonna and Guns & Roses. AND it promotes social functions for the overall student population in conjunction with other student organizations. It promotes free tutoring programs for the middle schoolers in the inner-city neighborhood that the university resides in ... to be role models and a living example that they can go to college too. And let's keep it real ... most of you guys won't participate in that program because you're too scared to step foot outside of the campus gates. The BSU sponsors the campus wide Career Fair for ALL students. It's membership is open to ALL students ... and yeah we've even had a few white members from time to time.

Having said all that, let me ask you this. There are 45 student organizations on campus and a good 40+ of them are overwhelmingly if not completely made up of white students. So I'd venture to say that the various needs of the white student population are being taken care of most adequately ... so a "White Student Union" would serve what purpose exactly? Other than to make a rhetorical point that is? Besides, why do you seem to have no problem with the International Students Club? Or the Christian Students Association? Or the Women's Student Organization ... especially considering the fact that the campus is 60% female? Not that I'm complaining about that one. I mean why's it an issue for you that the black students created an organization but not these other groups?

Random white student/faculty member/administrator: Wow. I didn't know you guys did all that. But still, it just doesn't sound right.

OAW. Ok. So let's say the organization did everything it does now ... but we just changed the NAME to the "Non-Traditional Students Union". Or the "Association of Students Bound to be Hassled by the Campus Police". Anything without the word "Black" in it. Would that make you feel better?

Random white student/faculty member/administrator: Now you are making fun of me!

OAW: Well maybe just a little bit.

Random white student/faculty member/administrator: And why do you guys always sit together in the cafeteria? It just seems like you are segregating yourself from the other students.

OAW: Actually we don't always sit together. Perhaps you only notice us when we do? And why is it that if there is one table of predominantly black students ... and 50 tables with nothing but white students ... you make the assumption that it's the black students who are setting themselves apart? As if where we sit in the cafeteria revolves around you! You might want to consider that people generally sit with their friends and acquaintances ... black, white, or whatever. It's just so funny how some of you guys seem so uneasy if more than 5 black people sit in close proximity to each other outside of a sports team. Never mind that on most days there might be 20+ other black students dispersed among the other tables. Yet for some reason you only notice the one. Relax dude ... it's not a conspiracy!

Random white student/faculty member/administrator: I see you think you have an answer for everything. But what about that Black Entertainment Television channel? What about that ... huh?!!!

OAW:
So the topic of this thread is most definitely the same debate ... different decade. And I'll reiterate my fundamental point. If those of you who oppose "Ethnic Studies" courses put HALF as much effort into demanding that "American History 101" courses actually reflect the contributions of ALL Americans .... we wouldn't even be having this conversation. Imagine that.

OAW
( Last edited by OAW; May 14, 2010 at 06:13 PM. )
     
BadKosh
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May 14, 2010, 05:06 PM
 
Originally Posted by OAW View Post

Only in the mind of a conservative is a situation where a country that has a 30-40% minority population ...
Comparing now to the 1800's up through WW1?

The Cowboy thing is assuming that all their were in the west were cowboys? It took lots of types of people in all financial and ethnic backgrounds to build the US. It's already been covered. Studying the history does not require listing everybody's race or gender or ethnic background. Once we were just Americans until the liberals came around to judge and categorize based on divisive traits.
     
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May 14, 2010, 05:36 PM
 
Originally Posted by BadKosh View Post
Comparing now to the 1800's up through WW1?

The Cowboy thing is assuming that all their were in the west were cowboys?
When did I say that ALL in the west were cowboys? Just where exactly did I say that? In fact, where did I say ANYTHING about the western population in general? I gave a specific example about how cowboys are portrayed in US history classes, TV shows, and movies. And yes that portrayal is the same ... even to this day. But hey I get it. When you can't refute the point that was actually made ... just go off on a tangent that has nothing whatsoever to do with what was said.

Originally Posted by BadKosh
It took lots of types of people in all financial and ethnic backgrounds to build the US.
Indeed.

Originally Posted by BadKosh
It's already been covered. Studying the history does not require listing everybody's race or gender or ethnic background.
Again ... if it's "already been covered" then there would be no need for "Ethnic Studies" programs in the first place.

Originally Posted by BadKosh
Once we were just Americans until the liberals came around to judge and categorize based on divisive traits.


OAW
     
Buckaroo
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May 16, 2010, 10:26 AM
 
Heck, I'm sick and tired of paying for the extra translation and printing of Mexican on my products. I only want to read English on the products I buy. Either they need to print every language on the planet on the packaging, or only English.
     
turtle777
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May 16, 2010, 10:40 AM
 
You sure it's Mexican, not Spanish ?

-t
     
OldManMac
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May 16, 2010, 01:34 PM
 
Originally Posted by BadKosh View Post
Once we were just Americans until the liberals came around to judge and categorize based on divisive traits.
You don't know much about the history of America, do you?
     
Buckaroo
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May 17, 2010, 12:39 AM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
You sure it's Mexican, not Spanish ?

-t
Several years ago, while trying to be PC, while talking to a friend from Spain, when I made some comment about people speaking Spanish in Mexico, he came unglued and was angry that I referred to the language spoken in Mexico as spanish. It was with great destain, that he made it very clear that the language they spoke in Mexico was NOT Spanish, but Mexican.
( Last edited by Buckaroo; May 17, 2010 at 12:53 AM. )
     
Simon
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May 17, 2010, 04:58 AM
 
IMHO that's nonsense. You could argue it's Castilian and not Spanish (because strictly speaking the latter doesn't exist). And you could even go so far as to say Mexican is a dialect of Castilian. But saying Mexican is its own language is baloney IMHO.
     
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May 17, 2010, 11:00 AM
 
Originally Posted by Buckaroo View Post
Several years ago, while trying to be PC, while talking to a friend from Spain, when I made some comment about people speaking Spanish in Mexico, he came unglued and was angry that I referred to the language spoken in Mexico as Spanish. It was with great disdain, that he made it very clear that the language they spoke in Mexico was NOT Spanish, but Mexican.
Originally Posted by Simon View Post
IMHO that's nonsense. You could argue it's Castillian and not Spanish (because strictly speaking the latter doesn't exist). And you could even go so far as to say Mexican is a dialect of Castillian. But saying Mexican is its own language is baloney IMHO.
My company (then Motorola SPS, now Freescale) had the author of this book, White Men, Women & Minorities in the Changing Work Force, give a seminar on the subject of his book. He told us about the time he gave his presentation to a company in Madrid. The CEO of the company loved it and wanted him to give his seminar at their branch offices. There was just one problem, his Spanish. He asked, "too Gringo?" "No, too Mexican" was the reply.
     
The Final Dakar
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May 17, 2010, 11:03 AM
 
Starting to sound like Mexican is the ebonics of Spanish.
     
andi*pandi
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May 17, 2010, 11:15 AM
 
If someone from Quebec goes to France their french is equally scorned. There are local accents and colloquialisms in any language.
     
dcmacdaddy
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May 17, 2010, 11:36 AM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Starting to sound like Mexican is the ebonics of Spanish.
Originally Posted by andi*pandi View Post
If someone from Quebec goes to France their french is equally scorned. There are local accents and colloquialisms in any language.
Exactly. There are accents and dialects in almost every language. And just as ebonics is scorned as being not proper American English my guess is that Spaniards, particularly Castilians, would scorn the Mexican dialect as being not proper Spanish Spanish.

Heck, just think about how the British who espouse "the Queen's English" scorn Americans for our use/abuse of the English language. (And don't even bring up the snobbery associated with British English being better than Scottish English.)
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May 17, 2010, 11:45 AM
 
Originally Posted by dcmacdaddy View Post
Heck, just think about how the British who espouse "the Queen's English" scorn Americans for our use/abuse of the English language.
That's right, colonials. Learn to speak properly, you muppets!
YouTube - Eddie Izzard - Being Bilingual

Originally Posted by dcmacdaddy View Post
(And don't even bring up the snobbery associated with British English being better than Scottish English.)
WTH is Scottish English?
YouTube - Rab C Nesbitt having a rant.
?
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Simon
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May 17, 2010, 12:21 PM
 
Originally Posted by andi*pandi View Post
If someone from Quebec goes to France their french is equally scorned.
Which is quite ironic if you consider that what a Québecois speaks today sounds very similar to the patois spoken in France 300 years ago.
     
andi*pandi
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May 17, 2010, 01:55 PM
 
vraiment.

and thanks doofy, I just watched this and now my coworkers are wondering why I'm laughing hysterically.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x1sQk...eature=related
     
BadKosh
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May 17, 2010, 02:08 PM
 
Originally Posted by OldManMac View Post
You don't know much about the history of America, do you?
Apparently you don't. Those who came here were proud to be Americans.
     
olePigeon
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May 17, 2010, 02:14 PM
 
Originally Posted by BadKosh View Post
Once we were just Americans until the liberals came around to judge and categorize based on divisive traits.
You must be one of those Native Americans Doofy was talking about.
"…I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than
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subego
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May 17, 2010, 03:50 PM
 
Originally Posted by Buckaroo View Post
Heck, I'm sick and tired of paying for the extra translation and printing of Mexican on my products.
Is this a joke?
     
besson3c
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May 17, 2010, 04:46 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Is this a joke?

I don't know, but it is certainly easier to take it as one, isn't it?
     
SpaceMonkey
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May 17, 2010, 04:53 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
I'm sorry Spacey, this is a delusion you've cooked up all by yourself. I showed you an example of how ethnic studies is being used to create identity politics and the division that comes with it. Nothing more, nothing less.

I'm still waiting for that quote from me accusing you of changing the subject.
I admit I may have misunderstood you, and if so then I apologize. But in context, I think it's quite clear how I might have made that mistake in reading your posts.

Frankly, if the point of your post was "nothing more, nothing less," then it was hardly worth posting as a response to my points. The plural of anecdote is not data, etc. That's why it felt like you were trying to accuse me of changing the subject by going back to the original topic, because I honestly couldn't care less about this particular Tucson program, and I'm more concerned about the baseless attacks against "ethnic studies" writ large.

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OldManMac
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May 17, 2010, 07:06 PM
 
Originally Posted by BadKosh View Post
Apparently you don't. Those who came here were proud to be Americans.
They came to make money, and anyone who was a minority, like the Irish, the Chinese, the Japanese, and even white Catholics were treated like shit, often segregated from the white people. It was the Chinese who built most of the railroads. Your asinine statement that they were proud to be Americans shows how little you know. If you look at history from the whitewashed perspective of the controlling white man, then your statement makes sense. I seriously doubt that a Chinese or Irish laborer, working under grueling conditions, for much less than his white counterpart, and unable to speak the language until generations later, would give you a thumbs up on being an American. They didn't even know what that meant.
     
 
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