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They've barely scratched the Surface...
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MacinTommy
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Jun 18, 2012, 09:00 PM
 
     
Doc HM
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Jun 19, 2012, 02:25 AM
 
Not sucky.

The keyboard is something that would have/should have been a wow apple release. Cover keyboard etc all in one flexible part. Nice. Far nicer than the piece of crap "smart" cover Apple deigned to release last week. Running Office is a big plus. I think we can see MS withholding Office for iPad for quite a while now.

Design is typical tablet though. It's OK but not award winning, especially from the back.


In all it seems well differentiated from the iPad, it should sell but can it overcome the iPads cool factor. Employees have come to expect/want iPads from their company, they may not react well to being handed a Surface.
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Lateralus
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Jun 19, 2012, 04:05 AM
 
Looks like an excellent, well planned product/lineup. It's nice to see that a rejuvenated Microsoft may yet keep Apple on their toes in the mobile space.
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Waragainstsleep
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Jun 19, 2012, 05:01 AM
 
They aren't that great to type on though. Flat keyboards feel weird.

I don't see it taking off. People for the most part don't want a tablet, they want an iPad.
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andi*pandi
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Jun 19, 2012, 07:11 AM
 
It looks nifty, I like the cover/keypad combo. Can I have one for my ipad please.
     
BadKosh
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Jun 19, 2012, 08:08 AM
 
The color choice part is pretty stupid. Ugly keyboards. PEE-YOU!
     
Eug
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Jun 19, 2012, 08:16 AM
 
Originally Posted by andi*pandi View Post
It looks nifty, I like the cover/keypad combo. Can I have one for my ipad please.
iPad cover keyboard combos have been out for eons.



By the look of it, I'm thinking the Logitech probably has better designed keys.

I got a different one as a gift last year, although mine is considerably more bulky, and more poorly designed keys.
     
beb
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Jun 19, 2012, 08:43 AM
 
Looks nice to me. Am wondering about the price and shipping dates.
     
Eug
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Jun 19, 2012, 08:51 AM
 
Originally Posted by beb View Post
Looks nice to me. Am wondering about the price and shipping dates.
Two things that MS curiously left out of the launch. ie. Vapourware launch. I have no doubt MS will release these, but I suspect the entry-level tablet will compete price-wise with the iPad and the Pro will be considerably more, competing against the Air... but with a crappy keyboard.
     
MacinTommy  (op)
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Jun 19, 2012, 09:10 AM
 
Also what about cellular networks? Can it connect to any? That's a huge deal breaker in my book (if it can't).
     
Eug
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Jun 19, 2012, 09:21 AM
 
Originally Posted by MacinTommy View Post
Also what about cellular networks? Can it connect to any? That's a huge deal breaker in my book (if it can't).
I dunno.

For me though, I wouldn't care. Tethering from a phone is included for "free" in Canada, as long as you have a data plan 1 GB or more.
     
MacinTommy  (op)
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Jun 19, 2012, 09:29 AM
 
I love how they are being ultra-secretive about all of the specs. I know Apple can be secretive (RAM) but not when it comes to basic things like battery life, price etc.
     
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Jun 19, 2012, 10:19 AM
 
Originally Posted by MacinTommy View Post
I love how they are being ultra-secretive about all of the specs. I know Apple can be secretive (RAM) but not when it comes to basic things like battery life, price etc.
No release date and "competitive" price translates to

"We are waiting until we'll be able t charge something not ludicrously above Apple's price, but we're not announcing either because you'll laugh us off the market before we've even launched if we do."
     
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Jun 19, 2012, 11:19 AM
 
The Surface Pro is their way of selling a cheap laptop with a crappy keyboard at less than the cost of an Air with a decent weight, by calling it a tablet with an extra keyboard integrated into the cover.
     
SSharon
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Jun 19, 2012, 11:27 AM
 
I'm all for competition, but that video didn't make me want a MS tablet at all. A tablet is a giant screen and it spent half the time showing pics of a keyboard. Who cares when there are so many bluetooth keyboards available?

What about apps? What about the UI? What makes this product better? If this pushes off Office for iOS that would suck.
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finboy
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Jun 19, 2012, 11:51 AM
 
Originally Posted by SSharon View Post
I'm all for competition, but that video didn't make me want a MS tablet at all. A tablet is a giant screen and it spent half the time showing pics of a keyboard. Who cares when there are so many bluetooth keyboards available?

What about apps? What about the UI? What makes this product better? If this pushes off Office for iOS that would suck.
Given the crappy performance of my Gen. I iPad after each OS update, I can see this as a potential replacement for it. I love Apple, but obsoleting the iPads of early adopters within a year or two is just stupid. Hell, if iOS apps get any more oversimplified and "broken" I can see lots of folks running to Windows 8.

Windows 8 is a step in the wrong direction (making the desktop more like mobile) but Apple is going that way too. MS is just trying to close the gap between Windows and iOS at this point. And they might succeed.
     
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Jun 19, 2012, 01:33 PM
 
Originally Posted by finboy View Post
Given the crappy performance of my Gen. I iPad after each OS update, I can see this as a potential replacement for it. I love Apple, but obsoleting the iPads of early adopters within a year or two is just stupid. Hell, if iOS apps get any more oversimplified and "broken" I can see lots of folks running to Windows 8.

Windows 8 is a step in the wrong direction (making the desktop more like mobile) but Apple is going that way too. MS is just trying to close the gap between Windows and iOS at this point. And they might succeed.
So what you are trying to say is you don't like advancing technology. You would be happy if Apple would sit still for a few years after each product so you don't become obsolete? I think RIM did that coincidentally and it didn't work out well to them.

Technology advances in the Desktop/Laptop area is peeked from years of intense focus. All updates on those markets are incremental. The mobile space (which the ipad belongs to) is advancing at great leaps and bounds because it had been ignored for so long. All the products coming out in the mobile space are going to make great generational leaps in performance and ability for a few more years before it will peek and updates will be more incremental similar to the Desktop/Laptop space. Just don't buy any more mobile devices until that time comes then.

This is what pushing the bar is all about, and the previous device will always be greatly out dated from it.
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Jun 19, 2012, 03:39 PM
 
Given how few devices Apple has, they ought to make more effort to optimise builds of newer versions of iOS for anything they deem compatible, even if it means removing those non-working features. We understand some things won't work, but it shouldn't slow down doing the things it used to do fast. I suspect Apple does this on purpose to some extent though.
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Jun 19, 2012, 09:00 PM
 
Making an iPad that was on sale a year and a half ago unable to get the newest iOS release is dumb. I think Cook thinks it'll help them get more people to upgrade. In fact it means they'll have more people still using the old versions. Granted iOS 5 offers pretty well everything that someone could want. The iPad 1 has a better processor than the one in the 3GS and it should be able to do everything the 3GS can do with iOS 6.
     
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Jun 19, 2012, 10:04 PM
 
iOS5 on iPad 1 sucks. It's so sluggish, I'm seriously considering downgrading to iOS4.

-t
     
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Jun 19, 2012, 11:04 PM
 
Originally Posted by Salty View Post
Making an iPad that was on sale a year and a half ago unable to get the newest iOS release is dumb. I think Cook thinks it'll help them get more people to upgrade. In fact it means they'll have more people still using the old versions. Granted iOS 5 offers pretty well everything that someone could want. The iPad 1 has a better processor than the one in the 3GS and it should be able to do everything the 3GS can do with iOS 6.
Very true.

The most blatant example of this was Aperture. They carefully created the install program to exclude all iBooks. Then Apple released a new iBook that happened to meet all the install requirements for Aperture. Low and behold, Aperture installed and ran fine on that new iBook with no hacks whatsoever. According to Apple's own software, it was an approved install. So Apple changed the install program at the next revision to specifically exclude that new iBook.

It's really frickin' irritating.
     
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Jun 20, 2012, 02:00 AM
 
Honestly iOS 4 probably ran better on my iPhone 4, the major reason I upgraded was AirPlay. I'm wondering how good iOS 6 will run on it and the 3GS. I won't be surprised if the 3GS doesn't handle it well at all.
     
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Jun 20, 2012, 09:31 AM
 
     
SSharon
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Jun 20, 2012, 09:42 AM
 
I must not use my iPad 1 very heavily because I've been happy with the performance of iOS 5 on it. The list of annoying restrictions that Apple unreasonably places on "older" hardware would go on for miles. Remember how the original iPhone never got MMS?
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Jun 20, 2012, 12:07 PM
 
I hope the best for Surface, because competition is great, but the double-bipolar (quad-polar?) nature of Surface looks like a certain failure. Having two chip architectures and two interface paradigms just sounds like a terrible, terrible plan. Instead of doing one thing well, it will do four things poorly. Surface is fragmented out of the gate.

And I can't help myself...

Steve Ballmer says "Things work better when hardware and software are considered together."

No sh!t? It's amazing that no one ever noticed this before now. Oh Mr Ballmer, you are such a visionary.
     
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Jun 20, 2012, 12:10 PM
 
     
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Jun 20, 2012, 04:47 PM
 
I never thought I'd have a reason to say this, but IF I were in the market for a PC running Windows, I'd take a serious look at the Surface.
The Windows thing is a show-stopper for me but I like the hardware.
Very slick, monolithic styling.
Microsoft has a cool piece of hardware.
Too bad they don't have the software to match it.
     
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Jun 20, 2012, 05:16 PM
 
Originally Posted by msuper69 View Post
I never thought I'd have a reason to say this, but IF I were in the market for a PC running Windows, I'd take a serious look at the Surface.
The Windows thing is a show-stopper for me but I like the hardware.
Very slick, monolithic styling.
Microsoft has a cool piece of hardware.
Too bad they don't have the software to match it.
Yeah my thoughts exactly. If I can hackintosh it, and if it's not vaporware, I'm sold.
     
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Jun 20, 2012, 05:30 PM
 
IF anything the Surface is more a direct threat to traditional PC's then it is to iPads.

Apple designed the iPad as a consumption device. It is a extension to your Mac and does what it is designed to do very well with out obsoleting the need for a full computer. The Surface on the other hand is designed to do what the iPad isn't designed for (a selling feature) at the risk of hurting the sales of traditional PC's. I don't see the Surface as a extension to a Windows desktop, but more a alternative to a full Windows computer.
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Eug
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Jun 20, 2012, 05:32 PM
 
Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton View Post
Yeah my thoughts exactly. If I can hackintosh it, and if it's not vaporware, I'm sold.
OS X isn't built as a tablet OS, so it'd likely be a terrible hackintosh, unless you only use it with the keyboard and trackpad.
     
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Jun 20, 2012, 05:42 PM
 
Originally Posted by Athens View Post
Apple designed the iPad as a consumption device. It is a extension to your Mac and does what it is designed to do very well with out obsoleting the need for a full computer.
Honestly, I don't think that's what the iPad was "designed as" at all. Not as a pure "consumption device", nor as an "extension to your Mac".

I think they built the iPad because they felt that's what had to be done and went from there.

If iPhoto, GarageBand, and iMovie are anything to go by, the platform can and probably WILL evolve into one hell of a creation device (iPhoto is quite astounding).

It won't obsolete traditional computers entirely, but it WILL replace them in many markets beyond pure "consumption" (and already is).
     
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Jun 20, 2012, 05:58 PM
 
Originally Posted by Eug View Post
OS X isn't built as a tablet OS, so it'd likely be a terrible hackintosh, unless you only use it with the keyboard and trackpad.
Huh? Ever heard of the magic trackpad? OS X is begging for a touchscreen. Edit: and I'm the most anti-touchscreen person you'll meet; I hate the idea of (a) having to raise my arm to the screen and (b) having to cover what I'm looking at with my finger. But in some cases it works, and I think this would be one of them.
     
Spheric Harlot
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Jun 20, 2012, 06:13 PM
 
Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton View Post
Huh? Ever heard of the magic trackpad? OS X is begging for a touchscreen.
OOOOOOOooooohhhhh...so THIS is where you're coming from.

No.

You've completely, utterly, missed the point of iPad.

There is a total and fundamental distinction between a pointer-based interface and a touch-based interface. Apple has (correctly) decided that they are not unifiable.

Quite apart from things like every single interface element being designed for a one-by-one pixel selection device being aimed by proxy via an input peripheral, rather than being designed for a square-centimeter fingertip (this is fairly simple, though extremely tedious, to fix):

All pointer-based interfaces are built entirely around there being a distinction between moving the pointer and *clicking* it. With touch, there is no such distinction, unless you want to hover over the screen, or add an extra click button somewhere or something and further add complexity.

So having both on a single device is necessarily broken and jarring. This is why Windows 8 Pro is such a Spectacularly Bad Idea.™
     
Uncle Skeleton
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Jun 20, 2012, 06:21 PM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
OOOOOOOooooohhhhh...so THIS is where you're coming from.

No.

You've completely, utterly, missed the point of iPad.

There is a total and fundamental distinction between a pointer-based interface and a touch-based interface. Apple has (correctly) decided that they are not unifiable.

Quite apart from things like every single interface element being designed for a one-by-one pixel selection device being aimed by proxy via an input peripheral, rather than being designed for a square-centimeter fingertip (this is fairly simple, though extremely tedious, to fix):

All pointer-based interfaces are built entirely around there being a distinction between moving the pointer and *clicking* it. With touch, there is no such distinction, unless you want to hover over the screen, or add an extra click button somewhere or something and further add complexity.

So having both on a single device is necessarily broken and jarring. This is why Windows 8 Pro is such a Spectacularly Bad Idea.™
You can take your pompous interface elitism and shove it right out your blowhole, friend. Don't tell me I'm doing it wrong. The fact that millions of trackpads manage to work despite your strict worldview means that you're simply incorrect.

Cordially,
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Spheric Harlot
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Jun 20, 2012, 06:43 PM
 
You can take your reading disability and shove it UP your blowhole, friend.

Allow me to clarify:

You've got

"manipulating interface elements via a pointer whose position and mode (clicked/not clicked) is determined by proxy through an input device"

vs.

"pointer-less interface designed for direct manipulation".


Just operating a Mac menu through touch should make it obvious where the difference is. There is no "mouse down" state on a touch screen. How do you click and drag through a menu? Try it using a VNC client from your iPad/iPhone.
It's completely broken.
(You can get it to work, but it's really fiddly)

What that has to do with the Magic Trackpad (my preferred pointer control input device by far), I have no idea.
     
Athens
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Jun 20, 2012, 07:14 PM
 
Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton View Post
You can take your pompous interface elitism and shove it right out your blowhole, friend. Don't tell me I'm doing it wrong. The fact that millions of trackpads manage to work despite your strict worldview means that you're simply incorrect.

Cordially,
This guy
For the most part your track pad is operating a pointer... it supports gestures. But try to use OS X with ONLY a track pad with no mouse, no keyboard. Just the track pad only. You will find OS X and the programs have many limitations.
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Spheric Harlot
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Jun 20, 2012, 07:21 PM
 
Originally Posted by Athens View Post
For the most part your track pad is operating a pointer... it supports gestures. But try to use OS X with ONLY a track pad with no mouse, no keyboard. Just the track pad only. You will find OS X and the programs have many limitations.
That's not the issue.

OS X is quite well operable with ONLY the trackpad.

The question arises when you either a) no longer have the trackpad at all (how to operate the pointer), or b) no longer have a pointer.

Frankly, I'm rather amazed that this kind of stuff isn't completely obvious to everyone, two years after iPad's release.
     
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Jun 20, 2012, 07:45 PM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
You can take your reading disability and shove it UP your blowhole, friend.

Allow me to clarify:

You've got

"manipulating interface elements via a pointer whose position and mode (clicked/not clicked) is determined by proxy through an input device"

vs.

"pointer-less interface designed for direct manipulation".
What pointer-less interface?

I didn't say anything about a pointer-less interface in this thread. Did you get your trolling all mixed up between threads?
     
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Jun 20, 2012, 07:50 PM
 
Originally Posted by Athens View Post
For the most part your track pad is operating a pointer... it supports gestures. But try to use OS X with ONLY a track pad with no mouse, no keyboard. Just the track pad only. You will find OS X and the programs have many limitations.
I agree. That's probably why this device has a keyboard too
     
Spheric Harlot
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Jun 20, 2012, 08:11 PM
 
Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton View Post
What pointer-less interface?
Anything touch-screen-based.

You want a touch-screen-based interface, which by necessity implies NO POINTER (or cursor, if you prefer—I'd rather stick to "pointer", since anything with text entry has a text-entry cursor).
     
Uncle Skeleton
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Jun 20, 2012, 08:30 PM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
Anything touch-screen-based.

You want a touch-screen-based interface, which by necessity implies NO POINTER
Untrue
     
Spheric Harlot
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Jun 20, 2012, 08:37 PM
 
Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton View Post
Untrue
Okay, I'll repeat myself:

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
Just operating a Mac menu through touch should make it obvious where the difference is. There is no "mouse down" state on a touch screen. How do you click and drag through a menu? Try it using a VNC client from your iPad/iPhone.
It's completely broken.
(You can get it to work, but it's really fiddly)

What that has to do with the Magic Trackpad (my preferred pointer control input device by far), I have no idea.
     
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Jun 20, 2012, 08:58 PM
 
1. you have a cursor, so you can do all that stuff the exact same way you do now, just like the touchscreen Windows products like the HP TouchSmart I demoed at Costco. The cursor just follows your finger. It's not "elegant," but it works just fine.
2. watch this: Samsung NC10 OS X TouchScreen Demonstration - YouTube
3. I don't care if my theoretical hackintosh Surface appeals to you, or to average clueless users that commercial products have to cater to. It would work for me.
4. You don't have to have access to every feature in the "mobile" mode of a convertible product, because even more than a tablet or iPod, the tablet mode would be used exclusively for consumption. I could fill all my dragging and typing needs during keyboard time.
5. Worst case, you simply use it like a transparent trackpad. Nothing says your finger has to coincide with the cursor. That is more intuitive, but not necessarily more functional. The fact that the trackpad is included, and doesn't take away real estate from the screen, is enough to get by, especially considering point 4.
     
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Jun 20, 2012, 10:43 PM
 
^^^ So, you're essentially saying you're fine with it even if it's a piece of junk.

---

Anyhoo...

Microsoft outsource Surface tablets to Pegatron; expected prices above US$599

Sources from notebook players have revealed that Microsoft's 10.6-inch Surface tablet PCs will be outsourced to Pegatron Technology for assembly; however, there is still not a firm estimate for order volumes.

The sources also estimated the end-market price of the Windows 8 Pro-based Surface tablet PC with Ivy Bridge processor to be at least above US$799, while the Windows RT-based model, featuring Nvidia's Tegra 3, will be priced above US$599.

The sources pointed out that the industrial design of Microsoft's Surface tablet PCs should attract consumers in the enterprise market, but their high prices are expected to become the biggest obstacle in the market.
     
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Jun 20, 2012, 11:17 PM
 
Originally Posted by Eug View Post
^^^ So, you're essentially saying you're fine with it even if it's a piece of junk.
Why the hostility? I would rather upgrade to OS X in exchange for a steeper learning curve, and no decrease in utility. Of course, it probably won't be an option, so you can stop worrying about it.
     
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Jun 21, 2012, 12:00 AM
 
Not hostile, just realistic. What you're describing would be junk.
     
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Jun 21, 2012, 02:30 AM
 
Looks cool. Will probably start at $599 and up.
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Jun 21, 2012, 04:29 AM
 
Originally Posted by Athens View Post
For the most part your track pad is operating a pointer... it supports gestures. But try to use OS X with ONLY a track pad with no mouse, no keyboard. Just the track pad only. You will find OS X and the programs have many limitations.
Not that I see what point you're trying to make, but I do use Macs with only the Magic Trackpad now and then. Works splendidly.
The new Mac Pro has up to 30 MB of cache inside the processor itself. That's more than the HD in my first Mac. Somehow I'm still running out of space.
     
P
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Jun 21, 2012, 04:32 AM
 
Originally Posted by Salty View Post
Making an iPad that was on sale a year and a half ago unable to get the newest iOS release is dumb. I think Cook thinks it'll help them get more people to upgrade. In fact it means they'll have more people still using the old versions. Granted iOS 5 offers pretty well everything that someone could want. The iPad 1 has a better processor than the one in the 3GS and it should be able to do everything the 3GS can do with iOS 6.
It is in all likelihood a RAM question. The bigger graphics for the iPad require more RAM, and 256 MB doesn't stretch far.
The new Mac Pro has up to 30 MB of cache inside the processor itself. That's more than the HD in my first Mac. Somehow I'm still running out of space.
     
Eug
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Join Date: Dec 2000
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Jun 21, 2012, 08:23 AM
 
Originally Posted by P View Post
Not that I see what point you're trying to make, but I do use Macs with only the Magic Trackpad now and then. Works splendidly.
Without a keyboard? What apps? It would be impossible for me to use my Macs with just a trackpad and no keyboard. I wouldn't even be able to surf the net.
     
 
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