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Why Do Liberals Care So Much About What Others Earn or Pay in Taxes?
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kimosABE
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Aug 17, 2012, 01:08 AM
 
Why Do Liberals Care So Much About What Others Earn or Pay in Taxes?

Just curious.

     
Spheric Harlot
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Aug 17, 2012, 02:43 AM
 
Because republicans are constantly going on about how much everybody is benefiting from the state (and then wanting to cut all those benefits).

Society works by balancing contribution and benefits.

How these are balanced is a matter of opinion (and human rights).
     
Chongo
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Aug 17, 2012, 03:41 AM
 
Class envy. Classic Marxist tactic employed by Saul Alynsky and his disciples. Pope Leo XIII condemed it in paragraph 19 of Rerum Novarum (05/15/1891) Rerum Novarm deals with the rise of Marxism

Rerum Novarum
     
BadKosh
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Aug 17, 2012, 04:18 AM
 
So they can plan HOW MUCH to over-tax us.


I wonder why liberals are totally unable to find even ONE PENNY to cut from the budget.
This is at Federal and State level. Maryland is a perfect example, just like California.
     
kimosABE  (op)
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Aug 17, 2012, 05:51 AM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
Because republicans are constantly going on about how much everybody is benefiting from the state (and then wanting to cut all those benefits).
Society works by balancing contribution and benefits.
How these are balanced is a matter of opinion (and human rights).
Well, thank you for taking the time to think about the answer before posting. But you are just assuming, and without any proof, that the aforementioned consideration is exclusive to Liberals.
     
kimosABE  (op)
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Aug 17, 2012, 05:52 AM
 
Originally Posted by BadKosh View Post
So they can plan HOW MUCH to over-tax us.
I wonder why liberals are totally unable to find even ONE PENNY to cut from the budget.
This is at Federal and State level. Maryland is a perfect example, just like California.
I'm pleased to have your participation in these threads!
     
kimosABE  (op)
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Aug 17, 2012, 05:55 AM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
Class envy. Classic Marxist tactic employed by Saul Alynsky and his disciples. Pope Leo XIII condemed it in paragraph 19 of Rerum Novarum (05/15/1891) Rerum Novarm deals with the rise of Marxism
Rerum Novarum
Hot Damn!

You got some serious academic horsepower, Chongo! I'm impressed!
     
Snow-i
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Aug 17, 2012, 09:04 AM
 
Originally Posted by BadKosh View Post
So they can plan HOW MUCH to over-tax us.
I wonder why liberals are totally unable to find even ONE PENNY to cut from the budget.
This is at Federal and State level. Maryland is a perfect example, just like California.
I've lived in Maryland my entire life. Annapolis. Maryland just took the crown as the state losing the most jobs. Companies are moving to VA and DE, jobs are going with it. For the first time in my life, I'm considering moving out of the state because of the sad economic state and unreasonably high cost of living.

Thankfully I'm in a really good spot regarding housing - a good buddy of mine's parents moved to Texas and we're renting from them. 30 minutes outside of Dallas they got a house three times the SQ footage of this one for the same price. They took a slight pay cut but take home more because of the tax situation. All and all looks pretty good.

I doubt I'll be able to buy my first house here in MD, even though of my friends in the same graduating class at UMD CP I'm making the most money (most still live with their parents, even at 26).

     
besson3c
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Aug 17, 2012, 10:46 AM
 
Originally Posted by kimosABE View Post

I'm pleased to have your participation in these threads!
You two guys are well suited for each other!
     
OAW
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Aug 17, 2012, 11:53 AM
 
The real question is why does Romney think he's not subject to the tax disclosure standards that Presidential candidates have adhered to for the last 30 years?

OAW
     
The Final Dakar
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Aug 17, 2012, 11:58 AM
 
Originally Posted by OAW View Post
The real question is why does Romney think he's not subject to the tax disclosure standards that Presidential candidates have adhered to for the last 30 years?
OAW
That's a political question.

To me, here's the intelligence question: In what world do you run for the nomination on '08, lose, get rejected as a VP pick, perhaps because of your 23 years of tax records, decide you'll run again in 4 years and think, "You know what? I'm going to pay the bare minimum of taxes for the next three years leading up to the next nomination where if I win I'll be expected to release several years of statements, a tradition my father started."?

And if it's not that he's ashamed of, then maybe its all the offshoring he might have been doing. I suppose Obama may have inadvertently ****ed him with the IRS crackdown and amnesty. Which if true, would be hilarious.
     
besson3c
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Aug 17, 2012, 01:15 PM
 
To me the tax disclosure thing has two elements to it:

Element "a" is used as a political asset or weapon to make Joe Sixpack feel that a politician can connect with him personally because they aren't in wildly different income brackets

Element "b" is a means of vetting for corruption and unscrupulous financial dealings


I'm all for element "b" to be done by some sort of entity (Joe Sixpack has no real means to do this on his own), but this whole element "a" thing is just dumb, dumb, dumb, dumb.

There is no direct correlation between intellect and wealth (Donald Trump sure comes across as a moron), but there is a general tendency for the wealthy that have actually built something of value and are not just celebrities to be of above average intelligence. We want leaders that are intelligent, therefore we should not want our leaders to be just like Joe Sixpack, because Joe Sixpack is probably a moron. Criticizing Obama for being an intellectual elite (which happened during the 2008 election) was the epitome of all kinds of stupid. If you want to call Obama or any other leader an intellectual elite, this would be a good thing. I would love it if my leaders were clearly smarter than me.

Secondly, running for president requires above average wealth, or at least access to and a direct connection to wealth, because nominations and elections cost all kinds of money. This is also dumb, but in a different way, perhaps the greater sentiment is more along the lines of "sick and wrong". This shouldn't be the case, but still, for as long as it is there is no point in Joe Sixpack longing for somebody who makes about the same money as he, because there is absolutely zero chance that person would be elected. Joe Sixpack might as well hope that his leader is actually a unicorn.
     
ebuddy
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Aug 17, 2012, 01:31 PM
 
Why Do Liberals Care So Much About What Others Earn or Pay in Taxes?

Answer: They don't. This is feigned outrage and entirely contingent upon whether or not there's a (D) after the name. They just now believe tax documents are a crucial gauge of one's integrity and leadership. After all, they've seen Obama's and W's, they've seen Clinton's, Carter's... hell, they've even seen Nixon's and from that they were able to carefully select the crème de la crème.

Romney shouldn't release them because A. he doesn't need to and B. the only ones who need them are interested in demagoguing success to distract from failure.
ebuddy
     
besson3c
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Aug 17, 2012, 01:45 PM
 
Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
Why Do Liberals Care So Much About What Others Earn or Pay in Taxes?
Answer: They don't. This is feigned outrage and entirely contingent upon whether or not there's a (D) after the name. They just now believe tax documents are a crucial gauge of one's integrity and leadership. After all, they've seen Obama's and W's, they've seen Clinton's, Carter's... hell, they've even seen Nixon's and from that they were able to carefully select the crème de la crème.
Romney shouldn't release them because A. he doesn't need to and B. the only ones who need them are interested in demagoguing success to distract from failure.
He shouldn't release them to satisfy element "a" (above), but he should to satisfy element "b". Unfortunately, I can't think of a way to satisfy element "b" in a way that doesn't get politicized as you are describing, but I think the benefits of vetting of any kind of candidate this way outweigh the losses.

I mean, they made Obama come up with two different birth certificates even though there really wasn't any reasonable reason for this sort of scrutiny, so people are going to want to vet shit, it probably goes with the territory. Let's just keep the focus on element "b" and not get distracted by element "a".
     
andi*pandi
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Aug 17, 2012, 02:08 PM
 
Why did Republicans care so much about John Kerry's wife's tax returns?
     
hyteckit
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Aug 17, 2012, 02:25 PM
 
Why does Mitt Romney's dad feel that it was important for all presidential candidates to release at least 10 years of tax returns?
Bush Tax Cuts == Job Killer
June 2001: 132,047,000 employed
June 2003: 129,839,000 employed
2.21 million jobs were LOST after 2 years of Bush Tax Cuts.
     
hyteckit
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Aug 17, 2012, 02:28 PM
 
Why did Mitt Romney feel that it was important for Ted Kennedy to release his tax returns when Mitt Romney was running against him?
Bush Tax Cuts == Job Killer
June 2001: 132,047,000 employed
June 2003: 129,839,000 employed
2.21 million jobs were LOST after 2 years of Bush Tax Cuts.
     
hyteckit
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Aug 17, 2012, 02:30 PM
 
Why did Mitt Romney feel that it was important for Shannon O'Brien and her husband to release their tax returns when Mitt Romney was running against her?
Bush Tax Cuts == Job Killer
June 2001: 132,047,000 employed
June 2003: 129,839,000 employed
2.21 million jobs were LOST after 2 years of Bush Tax Cuts.
     
hyteckit
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Aug 17, 2012, 02:31 PM
 
Why did Mitt Romney lie on his tax returns and had to retroactively change it?

http://www.pensitoreview.com/2012/08/08/romney-hid-his-returns-in-2002-mass-governors-race-too/
Bush Tax Cuts == Job Killer
June 2001: 132,047,000 employed
June 2003: 129,839,000 employed
2.21 million jobs were LOST after 2 years of Bush Tax Cuts.
     
Chongo
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Aug 17, 2012, 06:50 PM
 
Originally Posted by andi*pandi View Post
Why did Republicans care so much about John Kerry's wife's tax returns?
Why did anyone care about Cindy McCain's tax returns?
     
besson3c
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Aug 17, 2012, 06:55 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post


Why did anyone care about Cindy McCain's tax returns?
How about we break out of this loop and just agree that no matter who is affected, desiring tax returns for anything other than vetting of unscrupulous financial dealings is just dumb? In this age, I'm sure we'd already be aware of any fraudulent Romney dealings or dealings of his not above the fray, so I'm comfortable with saying that I don't give a rat's ass about Romney's returns, but this is with the important caveat that I don't give a rat's ass about anybody's returns for the purpose of exposing their wealth. It should be no surprise to anybody that a nominated candidate is wealthy, because it would be impossible to not be.

Please delight me ebuddy and say that you feel the same way about all of the Democrat tax returns that have been listed above?
     
ebuddy
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Aug 18, 2012, 08:01 AM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
How about we break out of this loop and just agree that no matter who is affected, desiring tax returns for anything other than vetting of unscrupulous financial dealings is just dumb? In this age, I'm sure we'd already be aware of any fraudulent Romney dealings or dealings of his not above the fray, so I'm comfortable with saying that I don't give a rat's ass about Romney's returns, but this is with the important caveat that I don't give a rat's ass about anybody's returns for the purpose of exposing their wealth. It should be no surprise to anybody that a nominated candidate is wealthy, because it would be impossible to not be.

Please delight me ebuddy and say that you feel the same way about all of the Democrat tax returns that have been listed above?
I feel the same way. Never care about 'em. Not then... not now. The only reason I bring them up is to demonstrate hypocrisy and/or how unimportant they really are in the scheme of things. i.e. if someone is accused of being out of touch because of their income, show me the accusors'. Romney's not the one indicting success here.
ebuddy
     
lpkmckenna
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Aug 18, 2012, 09:06 AM
 
Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
how unimportant they really are in the scheme of things.
Unfairness is unimportant? Cutting benefits while idle millionaires are undertaxed is unimportant?
if someone is accused of being out of touch because of their income
No one is doing that.
Romney's not the one indicting success here.
No one is doing that either.
     
besson3c
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Aug 18, 2012, 02:23 PM
 
The other problem is that it is impossible to define unscrupulous. Some find stashing money in offshore bank accounts to be unscrupulous even though it is legal. You can also make the argument that it is not logical that somebody that benefits this way would fight very hard to have things changed.

Still, I wouldn't get worked up because it will take buy in of the entire government to support financial reform of this nature. In the meantime, this kind of vetting is good for hypocrisy checks, but it is probably ultimately not terribly productive.

What I hear most though is the desire to reveal tax returns to illustrate how "out of touch" a politician is, which is what I disagree with the most
     
Waragainstsleep
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Aug 18, 2012, 03:28 PM
 
Is interest in presidential candidate tax returns really a partisan thing? If Romney's dad was the one who introduced it, was he a democrat?

I would have thought the reasons were pretty obvious. I bet you can tell a lot about someone from their tax returns, and going back 10 years you'll probably get far enough to before they planned to be president so it should give you an honest view about them, one which is more difficult to spin than the rest of their public information.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
RobOnTheCape
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Aug 18, 2012, 04:34 PM
 
I care about Romneys tax returns because he's asked for them from opponents in past elections. I care about his tax returns because I would like to see what % an extremely wealthy candidate pays in relation to the average guy trying to get by, but is paying 25 - 30%. I care because he's refused to do so when many republicans out there agree that he should release them just to get onto to real issues, and by not doing so it appears he's hiding something, thus all the more reason to care.

Living in Mass, and looking at his ever changing stances on issues I don't trust the guy, and thus want him to open his books as past candidates have done.
     
andi*pandi
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Aug 18, 2012, 04:46 PM
 
Well said Rob.

Thank you also ebuddy for a reasonable answer.

I recall that many on the right painted Kerry with a negative brush due to his finances. Even though he'd release his tax returns regularly, and people could see his finances, he wasn't praised as an example of capitalism, his wife wasn't idolized as a "job creator"... People just focused on how many boats he had. Why? To stir up jealousy. Did Bush have boats? Hell yeah. But Kerry got the "out of touch" comments.

So in comparison this recalcitrance on Romney's part just seems... stubbornly suspicious. Either he's just an obstinate *******, or he's a secretive *******. Either way, he's not starting off the gate with a "transparent" approach to the Presidency.
     
ebuddy
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Aug 18, 2012, 05:29 PM
 
Originally Posted by RobOnTheCape View Post
Living in Mass, and looking at his ever changing stances on issues I don't trust the guy, and thus want him to open his books as past candidates have done.
This means you wouldn't be voting for Romney anyway. The IRS has every one of Romney's returns, you can look online what his tax rates are without seeing his tax returns. It's voyeurism, plain and simple.
ebuddy
     
ebuddy
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Aug 18, 2012, 05:39 PM
 
Originally Posted by lpkmckenna View Post
Unfairness is unimportant? Cutting benefits while idle millionaires are undertaxed is unimportant?
Everyone has the opportunity for capital gains and their rate of taxation is progressive based on income. You're not interested in fairness.

No one is doing that.
Of course they are.

No one is doing that either.
You're not paying attention.
ebuddy
     
RobOnTheCape
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Aug 18, 2012, 06:04 PM
 
Tax rate yes - but tax returns? I think we are quickly finding out that tax rates for the wealthy and corporations are fairly irrelevant in relation to what people(now that corporations are people too) pay.

Voyeurism has nothing to do with it. Are all the conservative pundits/pols voyeurs as well? Isn't it fair to ask a politician running for President to at least disclose what most all past presidential candidates have disclosed, and if they refuse, then isn't it natural to suspect something?

He reminds me of Palin - flawed in a different way, but flawed nonetheless.
     
ebuddy
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Aug 19, 2012, 04:57 AM
 
Originally Posted by RobOnTheCape View Post
Tax rate yes - but tax returns? I think we are quickly finding out that tax rates for the wealthy and corporations are fairly irrelevant in relation to what people(now that corporations are people too) pay.
Yes, we already know this from numerous Obama cabinet appointments as well as multiple business-members of his two economic advisory panels. We know this of GE and Jeffrey Immelt who is the chairperson for Obama's Council of Jobs and Competitiveness. You need to see Romney's tax returns to know this? Of course not. This is disingenuous.

Voyeurism has nothing to do with it. Are all the conservative pundits/pols voyeurs as well?
Who are "all the conservative pundits/pols" you're referring to? This is only useful for being politically antagonistic toward others which of course is something that happens in the generals of both parties.

Isn't it fair to ask a politician running for President to at least disclose what most all past presidential candidates have disclosed, and if they refuse, then isn't it natural to suspect something?
Again, the proper oversight authority has access to all of Romney's records, which is not something that can be said for the information around a failed gun-running operation that resulted in hundreds of Mexicans and a US border patrol agent dead. You suppose Obama invoked Executive Privilege over an operation the White House claims it had nothing to do with perhaps due to some politically damaging stuff or worse; criminality? Don't you think, in the much larger scheme of things, this is easily of much greater importance? If you say "no", I'm left to believe your priorities are either truly this screwed up or this whole ruse is for nothing more than political expediency. Or what of this Administration leaking information to make our President look like a tough guy while putting future intel, agents, and operations in jeopardy? Or shipping taxpayer money and jobs overseas to failed solar ventures that lined the pockets of its executives just prior to the company going belly-up? We need to know what this Administration knew and when on all of these matters and why my tax dollar is hard at work supporting it before I'm going to concern myself with a private citizen utilizing the tax code to shelter his own money overseas in a global economy.

I mean, if we're going to use a lacking transparency to imply impropriety, I can see why Romney's tax returns would be so much more important... politically.

He reminds me of Palin - flawed in a different way, but flawed nonetheless.
Obama reminds me of Pelosi because of course, they're both flawed. I know... I know... one's white and the other black. One's male and the other female and they both have entirely different life experiences and skill-sets, but...

Yup, more proof that this whole thing is a ruse for slander.
ebuddy
     
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Aug 19, 2012, 08:40 AM
 
Wasn't the requirement to disclose 10 years tax returns a republican idea in the first place?
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
ebuddy
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Aug 19, 2012, 08:44 AM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
Wasn't the requirement to disclose 10 years tax returns a republican idea in the first place?
I don't know, was it? And what does that have to do with the potentially criminal behaviors of the Obama Administration? Isn't it a requirement of the Constitution that the President not unilaterally determine which laws of the country to uphold and which ones not to? Yeah, you guessed it. Romney's tax returns really are not important in the scheme of things and not once have they been used to make a more sound judgement on the one to run the country.

I'm sorry folks, this is nothing more than political theatre. Just admit it.
ebuddy
     
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Aug 19, 2012, 09:17 AM
 
Everyone else was saying that Romney's dad introduced the requirement. I assume he was a Republican. Your assertion that the whole thing was theatre sounded like it was blaming the democrats. Thats all I was getting at.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
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Aug 19, 2012, 09:46 AM
 
Originally Posted by lpkmckenna View Post
Unfairness is unimportant? Cutting benefits while idle millionaires are undertaxed is unimportant?
.
Enact the Fair Tax and that won't be a problem.
     
besson3c
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Aug 19, 2012, 10:22 AM
 
Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post

I don't know, was it? And what does that have to do with the potentially criminal behaviors of the Obama Administration? Isn't it a requirement of the Constitution that the President not unilaterally determine which laws of the country to uphold and which ones not to? Yeah, you guessed it. Romney's tax returns really are not important in the scheme of things and not once have they been used to make a more sound judgement on the one to run the country.
I'm sorry folks, this is nothing more than political theatre. Just admit it.
It is theatre, but potentially criminal behavior? Now you're sounding like Abe.
     
subego
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Aug 19, 2012, 11:12 AM
 
I wouldn't say it's impossible he's covering up something illegal, but it seems far more likely Obama and/or Holder are just big fat liars, and that's what's being covered up.
     
ebuddy
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Aug 19, 2012, 11:50 AM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
It is theatre, but potentially criminal behavior? Now you're sounding like Abe.
Let me get this straight besson, now you can't question the potential impropriety behind an executive move to cover for a department's lethal activities the executive branch supposedly had nothing to do with? Again, we're comparing a scenario in which the governmental oversight authority (who deems things legal or not) has every bit of the information they need to make that call vs another scenario in which they're being blocked from even investigating.

I think it's perfectly legitimate to question whether or not laws were broken with regard to Fast and Furious. I can't imagine how defending them here shows any genuine concern for vetting a Presidential prospect, but it's probably wise to ignore what apologists for this administration claim legitimate grievances against them sound like.
ebuddy
     
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Aug 19, 2012, 02:45 PM
 
Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
Everyone has the opportunity for capital gains ...
Do you honestly believe this?
     
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Aug 19, 2012, 02:51 PM
 
Sell your home in an up market and find out.
     
nonhuman
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Aug 19, 2012, 03:13 PM
 
Originally Posted by Demonhood View Post


Do you honestly believe this?
Anyone is capable of starting a business, so yes, anyone is capable of having capital gains income. It's not just 'rich' people who do these things, especially not now that the internet has made it so easy and accessible.

(This isn't to say that starting a business is the only way to have capital gains, just the one that's most obviously accessible to most people.)
     
finboy
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Aug 19, 2012, 03:22 PM
 
Class envy. Classic Marxist tactic employed by Saul Alynsky and his disciples. Pope Leo XIII condemed it in paragraph 19 of Rerum Novarum (05/15/1891) Rerum Novarm deals with the rise of Marxism

Rerum Novarum
That's a nice reference, hadn't seen that before.
     
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Aug 20, 2012, 04:07 AM
 
Originally Posted by Demonhood View Post
Do you honestly believe this?
Well not currently if you don't have some boys in the government.
     
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Aug 20, 2012, 04:18 AM
 
Originally Posted by nonhuman View Post
(This isn't to say that starting a business is the only way to have capital gains, just the one that's most obviously accessible to most people.)
What are the ways that are less accessible to most people?
     
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Aug 20, 2012, 04:43 AM
 
Perhaps it s bottom feeders that NEED TO STEP UP TO THE PLATE AND WORK HARDER
and start paying more in taxes. Perhaps LESS BENEFITS? Their is a reason they don't make as much (Education, aptitude, ambition), but that's not OUR FAULT.


Millionaires already pay MORE in taxes, not only by percentage but real money.

Quit the Gov't WASTE AND DUPLICATION and start reducing the bloated gov't.
     
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Aug 20, 2012, 08:10 AM
 
Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
They just now believe tax documents are a crucial gauge of one's integrity and leadership..
Considering they may illustrate impropriety as well as the advantages the wealthy can use within the tax code in a post Occupy Wall Street world, I think it's a fair change of opinion.

Edit: He also want to change the tax code in a manner that greatly benefits him.

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics...es-is-it-true/

Would we know that without him having released one tax return?
     
BadKosh
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Aug 20, 2012, 08:24 AM
 
Are college records any concern? Like HOW you paid, what grades you got, etc?
     
The Final Dakar
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Aug 20, 2012, 08:30 AM
 
Originally Posted by BadKosh View Post
Are college records any concern? Like HOW you paid, what grades you got, etc?
I know you don't respond, but why do you care how he paid? Is there some scandal as to how or who paid his tuition?

Obama graduated law school Magna Cum Laude. That good enough to know his grades?

Edit: Do conservatives care about grades? Academic achievement is purely in the realm of dat Liberal Elite, last I checked.
     
nonhuman
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Aug 20, 2012, 08:47 AM
 
Originally Posted by Wiskedjak View Post


What are the ways that are less accessible to most people?
Some simple examples are investing in someone else's existing business or buying a home, but those both require a fair amount of up-front capital in most cases.

Any time you buy something, whether it's stock, a house, a car, whatever, and then sell it for more than you bought it for, that's technically capital gains. For most people, however, the things that they buy and sell are not of the sort that the government takes interest in (real estate, businesses, basically anything that costs a lot of money and tends to gain rather than lose value over time), so they just pocket the profit and don't worry about capital gains tax.
     
RobOnTheCape
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Aug 20, 2012, 08:50 AM
 
"Who are "all the conservative pundits/pols" you're referring to? This is only useful for being politically antagonistic toward others which of course is something that happens in the generals of both parties."

Quite a few actually, but the latest is Bill Kristol - not quite a shill for the dems:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/08/20/bill-kristol-mitt-romney-tax-rate_n_1810512.html
     
 
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