Welcome to the MacNN Forums.

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

You are here: MacNN Forums > Community > MacNN Lounge > Political/War Lounge > Guess where Mexico gets most of its illegal guns from

Guess where Mexico gets most of its illegal guns from (Page 2)
Thread Tools
Athens
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Great White North
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 27, 2013, 05:16 AM
 
Originally Posted by Snow-i View Post
On the contrary. If I own a gun, it is much harder to commit a crime against me.

Illegal guns make it easier to commit crimes.
Legal guns make it harder.

Outlawing guns will only affect one of those two categories.
More bullshit, you owning a gun is irrelevant. In most cases your ability to get to your gun to matter is not a option. Criminals who are armed may just shoot you first and ask questions after. Legal guns dont make you safer in most cases just as gun prohibition does not stop crimes. Once in a while a gun in the home will result in a favorable outcome in a attack or robbery situation. IF you own a gun, im just going to shoot you first and then steal from your corpse.
Blandine Bureau 1940 - 2011
Missed 2012 by 3 days, RIP Grandma :-(
     
Athens
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Great White North
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 27, 2013, 05:18 AM
 
Originally Posted by BLAZE_MkIV View Post
Thats the point I was making. Solving crime isn't easy. If someone tries to sell you an easy way out they're lying.
Solving crime is easy, just have to remove republican, religious and American ideology from the equation. No drug and no personal activity should be banned. This includes the sex trade. Treat addictions as a medical issue. Treat poverty with real solutions and watch your crime rates drop drastically.
Blandine Bureau 1940 - 2011
Missed 2012 by 3 days, RIP Grandma :-(
     
Athens
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Great White North
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 27, 2013, 05:19 AM
 
Originally Posted by cgc View Post
I'd go a step further and say the cause of crime is a FUBARed society where we have broken families, no religion, crappy schools, no values, and idolizing bad behavior (e.g. hollywood, musicians, reality show people, etc.)...among other things.
Religion leads to more crime. A recent study has shown that those that commit crimes use religion and god to justify it. I can always repent to god. God always forgives. God will forgive me. Its gods fault he knew the situation he put me in. Its god testing me. Most criminals are very religious and they justify actions through religion.
Blandine Bureau 1940 - 2011
Missed 2012 by 3 days, RIP Grandma :-(
     
Athens
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Great White North
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 27, 2013, 05:22 AM
 
Originally Posted by cgc View Post
Religion belongs in the home and is important to many as it teaches values, provides hope, and gives children and adults an example of what to do (as well as what not to do).
And gives criminals a way out to excuse there crimes through the kindness of god. Society tells us what we can and cant do, not a fictional character from a book. You dont murder people because you would go to jail for it.
Blandine Bureau 1940 - 2011
Missed 2012 by 3 days, RIP Grandma :-(
     
cgc
Professional Poster
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Down by the river
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 27, 2013, 08:51 AM
 
Originally Posted by Athens View Post
Religion leads to more crime. A recent study has shown that those that commit crimes use religion and god to justify it. I can always repent to god. God always forgives. God will forgive me. Its gods fault he knew the situation he put me in. Its god testing me. Most criminals are very religious and they justify actions through religion.
Studies can prove or disprove any point of view so it's best if you cite the study you're referring to. I don't accept your argument that "most criminals are religious." I think you're confusing the fact that most prisoners are religous but I'd say some criminals are and some aren't...but once in prison they find God as they ask for forgiveness and repent. All the people in my church that I've talked to are good people who I feel would never commit a crime as that is a sin and just plain wrong.

Originally Posted by Athens View Post
And gives criminals a way out to excuse there crimes through the kindness of god. Society tells us what we can and cant do, not a fictional character from a book. You dont murder people because you would go to jail for it.
"A fictional character from a book" that billions of people follow. Regardless of God's authenticity, you can see His works through His followers. Call it placebo effect if it helps you accept that believing in something good will bring good into people's lives. If you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything. Religion gives people hope and teaches humility, among other things.
"Like a midget at a urinal, I was going to have to stay on my toes." Frank Drebin, Naked Gun 33 1/3: The Final Insult
     
subego
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 27, 2013, 09:30 AM
 
Originally Posted by Athens View Post
Bullshit, a gun is just a tool it does not make it easier or harder.
Isn't the whole point of a tool to make a job easier?
     
cgc
Professional Poster
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Down by the river
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 27, 2013, 09:34 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Isn't the whole point of a tool to make a job easier?
Guns definately make it easier to hurt someone...also much less messy and personal.
"Like a midget at a urinal, I was going to have to stay on my toes." Frank Drebin, Naked Gun 33 1/3: The Final Insult
     
BLAZE_MkIV
Professional Poster
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Nashua NH, USA
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 27, 2013, 01:03 PM
 
Originally Posted by Athens View Post
Solving crime is easy, just have to remove republican, religious and American ideology from the equation. No drug and no personal activity should be banned. This includes the sex trade. Treat addictions as a medical issue. Treat poverty with real solutions and watch your crime rates drop drastically.
So we get rid of crime by not considering it a crime anymore? How very anarchic of you. "Oh I'm sorry did I get in you're way. Here have the keys to my car too. My wife? Yes she is pretty. I stole her from the guy down the street." You know there's a reason beyond religion for all those morals.
     
Snow-i
Professional Poster
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Maryland
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 27, 2013, 04:04 PM
 
Originally Posted by Athens View Post
More bullshit, you owning a gun is irrelevant. In most cases your ability to get to your gun to matter is not a option. Criminals who are armed may just shoot you first and ask questions after. Legal guns dont make you safer in most cases just as gun prohibition does not stop crimes. Once in a while a gun in the home will result in a favorable outcome in a attack or robbery situation. IF you own a gun, im just going to shoot you first and then steal from your corpse.
No, you're more likely to pick on an easier target. Just ask DC.
     
BLAZE_MkIV
Professional Poster
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Nashua NH, USA
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 27, 2013, 04:07 PM
 
You want a criminal to pick an easier target? Get a dog.
     
olePigeon
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Dec 1999
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 27, 2013, 05:08 PM
 
Originally Posted by cgc View Post
All the people in my church that I've talked to are good people who I feel would never commit a crime as that is a sin and just plain wrong.
That's really easy when you get to define what's a sin.
"…I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than
you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods,
you will understand why I dismiss yours." - Stephen F. Roberts
     
Snow-i
Professional Poster
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Maryland
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 27, 2013, 05:09 PM
 
Originally Posted by BLAZE_MkIV View Post
You want a criminal to pick an easier target? Get a dog.
I have a dog. But dogs aren't bulletproof and can be easily circumvented by a steak. The dog is there to alert me that something/one is approaching my house at an odd hour or in an odd manner. The police are 10-15 minutes away. What should i do? Lay down and die?
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
Games Meister
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Eternity
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 27, 2013, 05:09 PM
 
Man, I'm lost as to where Mexico or enforcing gun laws got left behind on this one.
     
Snow-i
Professional Poster
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Maryland
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 27, 2013, 05:13 PM
 
Originally Posted by lpkmckenna View Post
Apply this logic to pipebombs and it instantly falls apart. Clearly, laws against pipebombs are totally pointless.
I mean, have they reduced pipebomb crime?
     
Snow-i
Professional Poster
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Maryland
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 27, 2013, 05:15 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Man, I'm lost as to where Mexico or enforcing gun laws got left behind on this one.
Somewhere along the lines of Mexico's gun problem isn't a concern to any of us unfortunately. They have much bigger problems to face.
     
subego
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 27, 2013, 06:11 PM
 
It's your guns that are the problem, US of A!

It's your drugs that are the problem, Mexico!

     
cgc
Professional Poster
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Down by the river
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 27, 2013, 06:49 PM
 
Originally Posted by olePigeon View Post
That's really easy when you get to define what's a sin.
We don't define sins...generally Christians follow the laws that apply to where they live as best they can as well as try to follow the Ten Commandments and teachings of the Bible.
"Like a midget at a urinal, I was going to have to stay on my toes." Frank Drebin, Naked Gun 33 1/3: The Final Insult
     
Waragainstsleep
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: UK
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 27, 2013, 08:45 PM
 
Originally Posted by Athens View Post
Bullshit, a gun is just a tool it does not make it easier or harder. The cause of the crime which tends to be economic is the "cause" of the crime. The tools are interchangeable. Take away the guns they use bats and knives. The only difference is the degree of damage and death involved when the gun itself is used. Its quick and does a lot of damage and easily kills better when used. The crimes will have happened regardless of what weapon the person had access to. If they are a drug addict and need money for drugs nothings stopping them from robbing some one. No death penalty, no 25 years to life sentence, no gun prohibition is going to stop that crime.
Economic pressure with or without drug addiction is certainly ample motivation for many to turn to crime, but robbing a liquor store with a knife or a bat is a totally different prospect to robbing one with a gun. Even mugging someone is different. If you wave a knife at someone and demand their cash chances are they'll give it to you, but they are far more likely to succeed or at least survive attacking you if you only have a knife than if you have a gun.
Its already been mentioned here and I've said it before too but shooting someone is much more remote and much less personal even from a few feet away.

If you have a gun in your home, whether its in a cupboard, a drawer, a safe or wherever, sometime you are going to look at it and think: "I could just rob someone". If you see a knife in your kitchen, you're going to think "I could make some lunch."
The poorer or more desperate you are, the more often that thought will occur (The robbery, not the lunch)
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
cgc
Professional Poster
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Down by the river
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 28, 2013, 07:03 AM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
...
If you have a gun in your home, whether its in a cupboard, a drawer, a safe or wherever, sometime you are going to look at it and think: "I could just rob someone". If you see a knife in your kitchen, you're going to think "I could make some lunch."
The poorer or more desperate you are, the more often that thought will occur (The robbery, not the lunch)
Can't say I agree with your claim that seeing a gun will make people think they could just rob someone. Those who are in a touch economic situation would probably consider robbing someone with anything available. I've seen videos in the local news where people rob stores with a stick or other random objects. Where there's a will there's a way...guns are just one of millions of things people can threaten one another with.
"Like a midget at a urinal, I was going to have to stay on my toes." Frank Drebin, Naked Gun 33 1/3: The Final Insult
     
Uncle Skeleton
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Rockville, MD
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 28, 2013, 08:51 AM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
If you have a gun in your home, whether its in a cupboard, a drawer, a safe or wherever, sometime you are going to look at it and think: "I could just rob someone". If you see a knife in your kitchen, you're going to think "I could make some lunch."
It's funny you should say that... about every other day when I pick up a kitchen knife, I get these spontaneous mental images of accidentally jabbing it into my eye, or quickly turning and accidentally burying it in a family member whom I didn't realize was coming up behind me. It's a lot like how I feel around heights (for anyone with acrophobia they will probably understand).

If my life was more involved with how to make a buck and keep my head above water than it is, then it's not hard at all for me to believe that I would have elaborate imaginary scenarios about robbing people with a kitchen knife pretty frequently. Or even just about murdering people out of spite. I'm not saying I would ever act on it, not at all, but your suggestion that the idea would never occur to me is far fetched.
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
Games Meister
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Eternity
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 28, 2013, 09:26 AM
 
Originally Posted by Snow-i View Post
Somewhere along the lines of Mexico's gun problem isn't a concern to any of us unfortunately. They have much bigger problems to face.
Mexico's gun problem is our gun problem. If they're getting 2/3rds of their illegal weapons form us, where do you think we're getting our illegal weapons from? (Hint: It's us)
     
BLAZE_MkIV
Professional Poster
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Nashua NH, USA
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 28, 2013, 09:53 AM
 
If the "war" on drugs has taught us anything, you can never prevent something by blocking supply. That just raises the prices. You have to deal with demand.
     
Snow-i
Professional Poster
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Maryland
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 28, 2013, 02:03 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Mexico's gun problem is our gun problem. If they're getting 2/3rds of their illegal weapons form us, where do you think we're getting our illegal weapons from? (Hint: It's us)
Mexico doesn't have a gun problem. They have a Cartel problem. Do you not think that if we were to magically stop all illegal gun transfers to Mexico they would not be flooded with the ever cheap and effective AK 47s? Start printing/manufacturing their own guns?

We are not the source of their gun problems, and to suggest that we are is disingenuous. If we could stop the drug/human shipments into the US that would go a long ways towards diminishing the illegal arms trade.
     
subego
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 28, 2013, 02:10 PM
 
Re: "printing" guns.

A machine shop is a "gun printer". The only reason they don't print guns is because it takes far less effort to steal one.
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
Games Meister
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Eternity
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 28, 2013, 02:18 PM
 
Originally Posted by Snow-i View Post
If we could stop the drug/human shipments into the US that would go a long ways towards diminishing the illegal arms trade.
And if we reverse this "If we could stop the gun shipments into Mexico, it would go a long ways towards diminishing the cartels" doesn't that play too?
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
Games Meister
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Eternity
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 28, 2013, 02:18 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Re: "printing" guns.

A machine shop is a "gun printer". The only reason they don't print guns is because it takes far less effort to steal one.
How cheap are these 3D printers anyway? And the materials used as 'ink'.
     
subego
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 28, 2013, 02:22 PM
 
I'm not sure. However I'm almost positive there are parts you'd still need a machine shop for (and will need for several years to come). The barrel being what jumps immediately to mind.
     
subego
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 28, 2013, 03:02 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
And if we reverse this "If we could stop the gun shipments into Mexico, it would go a long ways towards diminishing the cartels" doesn't that play too?
I don't really buy into the whole "people will find another way" argument. If we had less guns, we'd have less people getting killed. It's simple math.

That being said, people might not find another way, but cartels sure as **** will.
     
Snow-i
Professional Poster
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Maryland
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 28, 2013, 04:02 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
And if we reverse this "If we could stop the gun shipments into Mexico, it would go a long ways towards diminishing the cartels" doesn't that play too?
Not as much by a long shot. We aren't the only gun makers in the world and countries like North Korea and Iran would be happy to ship a butt load of AKs to make some $$ - not to mention private arms dealers/groups in these less than wholesome countries.

The cartels aren't going to say "Oh man, we can't get guns from the US anymore, guess we should give up."
     
Snow-i
Professional Poster
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Maryland
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 28, 2013, 04:04 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I don't really buy into the whole "people will find another way" argument. If we had less guns, we'd have less people getting killed. It's simple math.

That being said, people might not find another way, but cartels sure as **** will.
But banning these guns would only serve to remove the arms from the law-abiding citizens.

     
BLAZE_MkIV
Professional Poster
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Nashua NH, USA
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 28, 2013, 04:07 PM
 
The AK is designed to be manufactured with very crude equipment. A basic CNC machine and a sheet metal press are all the specialized equipment you need.
     
subego
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 29, 2013, 08:34 AM
 
Originally Posted by Snow-i View Post
But banning these guns would only serve to remove the arms from the law-abiding citizens.

You're reading into way more into this than what I said.

I made no mention of mechanism (banning, etc.), or whether I think we should lower the amount of guns (I don't). However, I still stand by my statement. Less guns means less people getting shot overall. By the same token, less pot means less people smoking pot.
     
subego
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 29, 2013, 09:50 AM
 
Originally Posted by BLAZE_MkIV View Post
The AK is designed to be manufactured with very crude equipment. A basic CNC machine and a sheet metal press are all the specialized equipment you need.
I was going to mention this. Kalashnikov's genius was he designed a robust weapon that could be successfully built by communists.
     
BadKosh
Professional Poster
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Just west of DC.
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 29, 2013, 11:48 AM
 
Originally Posted by Athens View Post
No drug and no personal activity should be banned.
Sure..... What a bunch of liberal BS. Personal responsibility, integrity and character are beyond your mental grasp.
     
olePigeon
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Dec 1999
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 29, 2013, 12:55 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
And if we reverse this "If we could stop the gun shipments into Mexico, it would go a long ways towards diminishing the cartels" doesn't that play too?
Not according to Snow-i, they don't have a gun problem.
"…I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than
you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods,
you will understand why I dismiss yours." - Stephen F. Roberts
     
Waragainstsleep
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: UK
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 29, 2013, 02:23 PM
 
Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton View Post
It's funny you should say that... about every other day when I pick up a kitchen knife, I get these spontaneous mental images of accidentally jabbing it into my eye, or quickly turning and accidentally burying it in a family member whom I didn't realize was coming up behind me. It's a lot like how I feel around heights (for anyone with acrophobia they will probably understand).

If my life was more involved with how to make a buck and keep my head above water than it is, then it's not hard at all for me to believe that I would have elaborate imaginary scenarios about robbing people with a kitchen knife pretty frequently. Or even just about murdering people out of spite. I'm not saying I would ever act on it, not at all, but your suggestion that the idea would never occur to me is far fetched.
Why is it that I always have to write carefully worded legal-esque documents with clear, explicit limits where applicable in order for you to not jump on my obvious statistical generalisations?

I'm not saying that it never occurs to people to stab anyone, I'm saying that robbery is more likely to strike someone as a genuine option if they have a gun than if they have a knife. The process starts the same:

See a gun, think "I could rob someone:"
Most people will still think "No, thats ridiculous, I couldn't do that" but more will think :Actually, I really could rob some someone" with a gun than they would with a knife. Its just a question of upping the numbers, I'm not saying all gun owners are armed robbers.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
olePigeon
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Dec 1999
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 29, 2013, 03:00 PM
 
Originally Posted by BadKosh View Post
Sure..... What a bunch of liberal BS. Personal responsibility, integrity and character are beyond your mental grasp.
Without background checks, people lacking those three important characteristics can own guns and shoot other people.
"…I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than
you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods,
you will understand why I dismiss yours." - Stephen F. Roberts
     
Uncle Skeleton
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Rockville, MD
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 29, 2013, 03:58 PM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
Why is it that I always have to write carefully worded legal-esque documents with clear, explicit limits where applicable in order for you to not jump on my obvious statistical generalisations?
I'm not being weasely or pedantic. Your real point is genuinely wrong.

I'm not saying that it never occurs to people to stab anyone, I'm saying that robbery is more likely to strike someone as a genuine option if they have a gun than if they have a knife.
That's only because their would-be victims might have guns. Take away all the guns and then the whole "what if" with a knife is no longer outlandish. In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king. And in the land of no guns, a desperate person with a knife is what a desperate person with a gun is in the US today.
     
Cold Warrior
Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Polwaristan
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 29, 2013, 08:35 PM
 
Originally Posted by BadKosh View Post
Sure..... What a bunch of liberal BS. Personal responsibility, integrity and character are beyond your mental grasp.
Infractioned, and not for the "liberal BS" part.
     
Snow-i
Professional Poster
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Maryland
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 29, 2013, 09:15 PM
 
Originally Posted by olePigeon View Post
Not according to Snow-i, they don't have a gun problem.
They don't. They have a cartel problem.
     
ghporter
Administrator
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: San Antonio TX USA
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 30, 2013, 10:53 AM
 
Originally Posted by Snow-i View Post
They don't. They have a cartel problem.
...which is a symptom of a problem with corruption at essentially all levels of government and society. The national government is not in control of much of the country; local control is in the hands of functionaries and officials who are often corrupt themselves, and who depend on lower level, typically corrupt individuals to run things. Cartels have tons of money that they spread around to buy the sentiments of locals, while they use murder and mayhem to control those they cannot buy, (If I was writing about Afghanistan, I'd use "Taliban" instead of "cartel".)

For internal political reasons, the Mexican government releases limited information about illegal weapons seized or captured within Mexico. They portray the U.S. as the cause of their problems, when instead it is the historic lack of social equity throughout Mexican society that is at the heart of their social, political, economic and criminal problems. Mexican society is highly stratified, and the well off are seldom impacted by the criminal activity of the cartels, but they are "concerned" about it. Since these are the only members of society that make a political difference, the government plays to their concerns instead of doing something radical like actually de-corrupting the federal military...

Glenn -----OTR/L, MOT, Tx
     
subego
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 30, 2013, 11:00 AM
 
Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton View Post
And in the land of no guns, a desperate person with a knife is what a desperate person with a gun is in the US today.
There's certainly not a 1-to-1 ratio.

When guns were invented, after each shot you had to put the thing down and take (literally) a minute to reload it. A bowman could get off an entire quiver before you finished.

Despite this, guns were popular. Why? Because you need almost zero training to use effectively.

A knife is like a bow. To have much chance of using it effectively you need to know what you're doing, if only because your target can dodge a knife, but not a bullet.

Add on top of that you no longer have the benefit of a ranged attack.

Add on top of that pulling a trigger is much easier mentally than slashing someone and having their blood spray all over you.

Add on top of that melee weapons have active defenses against them (another knife, a hammer, a baseball bat, a crowbar). The only defense against a bullet is armor (whether worn or hid behind).

Guns are very simply, a vastly superior killing technology to the alternatives. There's a reason the basic design has remained unchanged for over a century. They nailed it the first time.
     
ghporter
Administrator
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: San Antonio TX USA
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Apr 1, 2013, 07:46 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
There's certainly not a 1-to-1 ratio.

When guns were invented, after each shot you had to put the thing down and take (literally) a minute to reload it. A bowman could get off an entire quiver before you finished.

Despite this, guns were popular. Why? Because you need almost zero training to use effectively.

A knife is like a bow. To have much chance of using it effectively you need to know what you're doing, if only because your target can dodge a knife, but not a bullet.

Add on top of that you no longer have the benefit of a ranged attack.

Add on top of that pulling a trigger is much easier mentally than slashing someone and having their blood spray all over you.

Add on top of that melee weapons have active defenses against them (another knife, a hammer, a baseball bat, a crowbar). The only defense against a bullet is armor (whether worn or hid behind).

Guns are very simply, a vastly superior killing technology to the alternatives. There's a reason the basic design has remained unchanged for over a century. They nailed it the first time.
While your final statement is accurate, you are very wrong in stating that firearms take little training or practice to employ effectively, particularly the earliest guns. And one need only visualize the "Hip Hop Handgun Hold" to see an example of this with modern weapons, and look at the history of gang shootings (especially "let's shoot up his house to scare him and maybe kill him" events that typically wind up injuring many bystanders and seem about equally as likely to target the wrong house, kill grandma AND the baby, etc., and still miss the intended victim by a mile) to see how this particular hold fails. Oh yes, it can be lethal, but so can starting a rockslide from above a church camp.

Effectively employing a firearm is what the older gent in the Internet cafe did when the two idiots with clubs crashed in and announced a robbery. He may not have hit the dunces with every shot, but he didn't injure any innocent bystanders.

Technology has given us the ability to move faster and reach much farther, with cars and trucks, and with slings, with arrows, and with firearms. Idiots will continue to drive the dump truck from work through traffic like it is their Eclipse (which causes accidents and fatalities regularly), will continue to drink and drive (which is far more deadly than either accidental or criminal use of firearms - though those two stats are lumped together far too often), and step into the street while watching a cat video on their smart phones, but we do not see any push to outlaw dump trucks, cars in general (since outlawing drunk driving has not ended it), or iPhones. I honestly think the is a combination of fascination and hatred (probably Freudian) in the press about firearms...except when they gush over the latest action movie with its over the top and plainly fantasy-based firearms usage.

Glenn -----OTR/L, MOT, Tx
     
subego
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Apr 1, 2013, 08:57 PM
 
I'm comparing it to a bow.
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
Games Meister
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Eternity
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Apr 2, 2013, 11:21 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I don't really buy into the whole "people will find another way" argument. If we had less guns, we'd have less people getting killed. It's simple math.

That being said, people might not find another way, but cartels sure as **** will.
Sure, but right now they're armed as well as the military. What happens if you tilt the playing field back in the militaries favor?

Also, what other ways do you think they'll be picking up?



Originally Posted by Snow-i View Post
Not as much by a long shot. We aren't the only gun makers in the world and countries like North Korea and Iran would be happy to ship a butt load of AKs to make some $$ - not to mention private arms dealers/groups in these less than wholesome countries.
If you're playing that game, Mexico can ship drugs to other countries as well.

Originally Posted by subego View Post
The cartels aren't going to say "Oh man, we can't get guns from the US anymore, guess we should give up."
The same thing applies if the US stops buying drugs.


Originally Posted by Snow-i View Post
But banning these guns would only serve to remove the arms from the law-abiding citizens.
...and yet, all those countries that ban guns and don't have rampant gun problems. Wonder why.

I'll point out that I previously posted that Mexico is exception among countries with strict gun control laws. And we know why that exception exists.


Originally Posted by Snow-i View Post
They don't. They have a cartel problem.
What enables the cartel to terrorize Mexican citizens and fight the military?
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
Games Meister
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Eternity
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Apr 2, 2013, 11:23 AM
 
BTW, maybe I'm misreading things, but isn't there cognitive dissonance between those who anyone should be allowed to have guns and wanting to prevent countries like Iran and North Korea from getting nuclear weapons? Isn't the underlying principle between preventing nuclear proliferation and gun control the same?
     
subego
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Apr 2, 2013, 11:26 AM
 
In the same way a pistol and what they put on battleships are both "guns".
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
Games Meister
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Eternity
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Apr 2, 2013, 11:27 AM
 
Jesus, stop posting one liners and actually explain shit.
     
subego
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Apr 2, 2013, 11:35 AM
 
They're apples and oranges.

One's for use on and by individuals. One's a strategic component of foreign policy.

One's a gnat, the other is a 747.

Dude. Sorry I didn't feel that question rated a deep ****ing response.
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
Games Meister
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Eternity
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Apr 2, 2013, 11:38 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
They're apples and oranges.

One's for use on and by individuals. One's a strategic component of foreign policy.

One's a gnat, the other is a 747.

Dude. Sorry I didn't feel that question rated a deep ****ing response.
So what is the strategic impact of having a tank on foreign policy?
     
 
Thread Tools
 
Forum Links
Forum Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Top
Privacy Policy
All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:35 AM.
All contents of these forums © 1995-2017 MacNN. All rights reserved.
Branding + Design: www.gesamtbild.com
vBulletin v.3.8.8 © 2000-2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.,