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shatten22 · Jan 8, 2003, 08:13 AM

Here's why. If it is a "Powerbook" it should cater to professionals who need portable power. The G4 is a start, but what about this 640mb RAM limitation? How about the fact that it can't power any of the Apple LCD's (no DVI out)? And that battery looks like it is as big of a pain in the ass to swap as the ibooks are.

Don't get me wrong, it's nice that it's here. But this reminds me of the Rev. A Powerbooks: Pismo's dressed up for the ball.

Giantbook is too big for my needs (I like my computer bags) but the innovations in that beast are great. I hope they all make it to the 15.2" level. I also hope they make it to the Minibook. If they did that little monster would be irresistable. But of course they won't. SJ likes to cripple (too strong?) his babies so he has somewhere to go down the road. It'll be really interesting next year when he has the 970 to play with. Hopefully the speed increments will just keep coming with that chip and the revisions will flow from month to month like the PC world.

Eriamjh · Jan 8, 2003, 08:27 AM

Apple didn't want to call a G4 notebook and iBook, but they know people wanted a G4 iBook so they made a small G4 Powerbook.

Who cares what they call it? Do you want a 12" G4 or not?

bipto · Jan 8, 2003, 08:35 AM

Um, yes, I do want one. Badly. Which is why I ordered one last night! As a regular user of an iBook/500, I think the 12" PB is just about perfect! I agree. Who care's what it called...

icruise · Jan 8, 2003, 09:12 AM

It all comes down to how you distinguish an ibook from a powerbook. In a lot of ways I think that the distinction is an imaginary one, especially given the new models recently introduced. But Apple seems to make the distinction based on a few factors: cost, performance, and design. You'll se that the 12" powerbook is in a lot of ways a new kind of portable that sits between the consumer and pro lines.

Cost: The 12" powerbook starts at $1799, which puts it right at the far edge of consumer portable territory. (The 14" ibook now seems even less attractive than before, starting at $1499, and it wouldn't surprise me if it eventually disappeared).

Performance: With the 867mhz G4, the 12" powerbook is above the ibook (although not by a lot) and below the highest powerbooks. I'm not sure about the video card in relation to the card on the 15" powerbooks and ibooks. The lack of a PC-card slot and a limit of 640B of memory (plus lack of DVI-out) makes the 12" model less capable than the other Powerbooks, but it does have the dual display support that the ibook (at least the unmodified ibook) lacks. This again puts it right between the ibook and powerbook in terms of capability.

Design: The design of the 12" model is perhaps the most obvious example of how it is a combination of Powerbook and ibook -- it's what would happen if a Tibook and an ibook had a baby!

But overall, if you have to choose between the two names, I think it makes more sense to call this a powerbook rather than an ibook. While it is right between the two in many ways, it does have the same metallic exterior as the powerbooks, it has the G4 and superdrive opton, and it is priced quite a bit higher than the ibooks. True, they probably could have released the exact same computer as a "G4 ibook" (or "ibook special edition"). But "powerbook" right now is associated with the G4, and I also think giving it the name powerbook probably gives it a kind of aura or prestige that the ibooks don't have, and that might help sales After all, a $1799 ibook is expensive, whereas a $1799 powerbook is "the most affordable powerbook ever."

fisherKing · Jan 8, 2003, 09:27 AM

i've been waiting for this one since...the 2400c.

anyone know this:
i can do monitor spanning, yes? no??

& there are adaptors to get to an external lcd monitor??

thanx

great to see apple moving forward again...

Eriamjh · Jan 8, 2003, 09:31 AM

One thing about computers and notebooks too: You can have speed, small size, or a decent price. Pick any two.

The problem with shrinking a notebook to 12" is you have to make room for the bare minimum requirements. Does ANYONE sell a 12" notebook that has a PC card slot?

I betcha Apple could have added a PC Card slot to the 12" PB, but it would have meant shrinking something or removing something else or upping the price.

$1800 sounds like a decent price for an 867 PB. If you must have a small notebook, forget about have a PC card slot. If you MUST have a PC card slot, then you have to get the 15" PB.

Concede.

CyberGreg · 09:58 AM

Originally posted by shatten22:
... And that battery looks like it is as big of a pain in the ass to swap as the ibooks are.

Huh? I have no problem swapping my iBook battery.... you turn the lock and the batter pops right out.... anyhow.....

The new 12 PowerBook has everything I wanted to replace my current iBook 500, which cost the exact same price at the time. I think the added capabilities of the G4 along with the much improved graphics will be awesome. I also do not want to give up the small, extremely user friendly design of my current iBook. The 12" PowerBook is just what I've been waiting for to step up from my iBook. Now all I need is $2,000.00

Oops, sorry.... if it looks and smells like a PowerBook.... it IS a PowerBook. Perhaps if they made it out of plastic and offered it with a G3, it could be an iBook SE or something. This seems to be the distinction between iBook and PowerBook at the present time (G3 vs G4).

Gee4orce · Jan 8, 2003, 10:10 AM

Originally posted by CyberGreg:

The new 12 PowerBook has everything I wanted to replace my current iBook 500, which cost the exact same price at the time. I think the added capabilities of the G4 along with the much improved graphics will be awesome. I also do not want to give up the small, extremely user friendly design of my current iBook. The 12" PowerBook is just what I've been waiting for to step up from my iBook. Now all I need is $2,000.00

I've ordered one to replace my 500MHz dual USB iBook.

Top tip: currently iBooks like this are fetching UKP�500+ (USD$750+) on eBay - that's 1/3 to 1/2 of the cost of a new Powerbook. I intend to sell mine to cover some of the cost of the new one.

I find that 18 months is the ideal age to sell a second hand Mac - they are usually worth about 1/2 what you payed for them, the new models are twice as fast (in theory) but still cost the same.

rtdunham · Jan 8, 2003, 11:21 AM

"i've been waiting for this one since...the 2400c."

Yeah, this is the machine i wanted them to announce at macworld two years ago--a "duo" version of the PB. I got the 15" instead because it was there, but the 12" is a welcome arrival. I WISH it had the lighted keyboard of the 17"--apart from its street appeal value it really is a function that's eminently functional (especially so given my 15"'s black keyboard--it that unusable in dark settings like airplanes, or what?!) And the DVI out, while perhaps prohibited by space limitations, would be more appropriate on this 12" machine than the 17. Consider: If steve j's right about portables becoming the desktops of the future, as in, you take this on the road and then go home to use it as your desktop machine, isn't it logical that you'd be MORE likely to want to plug your 12" portable into a 22 or 23 LCD at home, than to pay the extra bucks for a big LCD monitor, if your portable already boasts a 17" screen? seems that way to me, anyway.

But having said all that, and having looked at it here at Expo, yes, this is a POWERBOOK and deserves the name. Again, consider: The duo-sized PB i hoped for two years ago would have had what, a 100 or slower MHz bus, 400 MHz cpu, lower res screen, no DDR ram, hugely inferior airport capabilities, So Apple, by waiting til now, really gives us the most capable compact PB possible to date, even though it does lack some useful features of the bigger boys.

"& there are adaptors to get to an external lcd monitor??"

I talked to a number of people here about that. Dr Bott guys first said yeah, their adapter would work. Then they said "not with the 23"" but that apple's adapter would. Apple's first two reps i spoke to said yeah, that was right. The next several said no, it wouldn't, though it might on the smaller screens. They said two diff adapters might be hooked up together and achieve suitable results but they figured that setup wouldn't be cost effective. Bottom line, according to the most knowledgeable reps i could find, was that I shouldn't anticipate driving my 23" LCD w/the 12". Bummer. For what it's worth, it appears the 12" outputs 1600 x 1200 to an external CRT display. That would have been missing on a compact PB two years ago, too...oh, and there wouldn't have been the capacity to write cds...oh, wait, there wouldn't have been superdrive capacity either!...oh, and it wouldn't have had bluetooth, and...

All in all, a pretty remarkable accomplishment. I'm going to order one today IF i can establish that there's not much likelihood of the lighted keyboard coming out anytime soon as a BTO option.

As for the hard-to-remove battery post on this forum, i dunno where that idea came from. From hands-on experience i can tell you the battery can be removed and replaced in seconds. It's about as hard as taking your keys out of your pocket. Note, however, that the 12" doesn't have the same new battery type as the 17" either, that may also be technology that finds its way into subsequent 12" models.

thanx

great to see apple moving forward again...

terry
st pete fla

shatten22 · Jan 10, 2003, 05:03 AM

My bad about the hard-to-remove battery. I just prefer the 15.2" Powerbook's way. And apparently I lack opposable thumbs..

I still think if Apple calls this minibook, a "powerbook" they should give us whatever innovations the current powerbook design holds. And that includes a lit keyboard (if we the light sensors won't fit, give us the option of turning it on or off), a higher maximum memory limit, and an L3 cache.

Gigabit Ethernet doesn't bother me, because I don't remember the last time said "thank god my tibook has gigabit ethernet," if ever. And Firewire 800 poses questions of usefullness (I always thought Firewire 400 was blazing), but that would have been nice if included since it is a "pro" feature.

I still think the minibook is an ibook dressed up for the prom. And sure, I do want one, but I would like to own one of each of Apple's creations. It isn't enough to make me want to give up my current tibook (the "just right" size) right now.

g

seanyepez · Jan 10, 2003, 05:17 AM

I like the 15-inch PowerBook the best. It's the perfect size, it has the best mobile graphics chipset on the market, and it has all the ports in one place.

dvd · Jan 10, 2003, 05:27 AM

Originally posted by seanyepez:
I like the 15-inch PowerBook the best. It's the perfect size, it has the best mobile graphics chipset on the market, and it has all the ports in one place.

if only the slot loading was on the right side.and if they had a usb on the side... blah if they can put everything on the side.. that would be great. i hate opening the cover..it feels like its gonna break when i have a ethernetcable plugged in. and yeah.

shatten22 · Jan 10, 2003, 05:29 AM

Agreed. I just hope Apple doesn't do something silly like phasing out the 15". It will be hard for some to buy the 15" now; if I were in a position to purchase I would hold off in the hopes that I would get some of the newer features found on the giantbook.

g

Troll · Jan 10, 2003, 05:40 AM

Actually, I read somewhere that internally at Apple, the 17" PowerBook is known as "Mini-Me". I guess the name's taken from the advert. Ironic!

Anyone know what they're calling the 12"?

AlbertWu · Jan 10, 2003, 05:56 AM

Originally posted by shatten22:
And that battery looks like it is as big of a pain in the ass to swap as the ibooks are.

it is, but the catch is that the 12 in. PBs don't have the internal battery to keep it asleep when you take the battery out, so the apple dude was like "yeah, it's supposed to remind you that you can't just swap batteries like that" (after i did it)

icruise · Jan 10, 2003, 06:07 AM

Originally posted by Eriamjh:
The problem with shrinking a notebook to 12" is you have to make room for the bare minimum requirements. Does ANYONE sell a 12" notebook that has a PC card slot?

You speak as if a 12" laptop were some kind of miracle of technology, but in reality there are any number of subnotebook class computers with PC card slots -- almost all in fact (I am typing on a sub-3lbs computer with widescreen 10.4" display right now -- it's two years old).

In my opinion (not being an engineer, admittedly) it is perfectly possible to fit a PC card slot, plus the other features, into a computer the size of the 12", but the design they chose made that difficult. It has the ports on one side and the drive on the other -- no room for the PC card slot, or DVI port for that matter. They would have had to put the ports on the back (and adopted a different type of hinge) to fit the PC card slot in, but it's not impossible.

HOWEVER, I will concede that most of the subnotebooks are not "fully featured" notebooks (as Apple says). This means that they have no internal optical drive. They might be missing some other features as well, but the best of the crop -- the small VAIOs for example -- have the I/O options pretty well covered, with internal bluetooth and 802.11b wireless, firewire, usb, etc etc. So to me, the real distinguishing feature of the 12" book is that it has an internal drive with the option for a DVD burner. I'm pretty sure it is the smallest and lightest DVD-R equipped notebook out there.

Anyway, while it could have been a bit smaller and lighter still, I plan to get one, since we don't have nearly the choices that are available to PC users, and I also want to send Apple the message that this is the kind of machine I want to see more of.

itai195 · Jan 10, 2003, 06:36 AM

Well there are plenty of subnotebooks with pc card slots... But to be honest, I'd rather lose the pc card slot than the optical drive. There are very few notebooks this size with an optical drive, let alone with a dvd burner. The 12" PowerBook is a very good product, I think it'll sell well. What I especially like about it is that it's finally an admission by Apple that there is a market that wants the iBook's size, with some pro features, for a little more money.

And how can I pass up a 12" Apple notebook that burns CDs faster than my big bad Power Mac with SuperDrive?

michaelb · Jan 10, 2003, 07:18 AM

Originally posted by Troll:
Actually, I read somewhere that internally at Apple, the 17" PowerBook is known as "Mini-Me". I guess the name's taken from the advert. Ironic!

Anyone know what they're calling the 12"?

Dr Evil?

xMetal · Jan 10, 2003, 10:42 AM

seems to me that in regards to the PC card issue, most of you are forgetting that all those otehr devices you are talking about that have them are lacking drives, multiple ports, airport antennas, trackpads, etc. Those things do take up space you know.

How many ultraportables in the PC world even have an integrated CD/DVD drive at all? Not too many to my knowledge.

MikeD · Jan 10, 2003, 10:51 AM

Originally posted by Eriamjh:
Does ANYONE sell a 12" notebook that has a PC card slot?

The Vaio R505 I have and am finally letting go of has a PC card slot. But when it's undocked, there's no optical drive.

I wonder about the specs on the SRX's though...

Mike

hsl · Jan 10, 2003, 12:05 PM

the thing the 12" powerbook really lacks is 1mb level 3 cache.
I also would like it to get the backlit keybord...
and the possibility to max out the RAm to 1GB.

for the rest is it gorgeous (maybe a superdrive that's slow, but it's a small computer).

HSL

slider · Jan 10, 2003, 12:59 PM

You know what, this has given us choice, if you're in the market to buy a PowerBook, I would think you know what you need or might need and can make an informed purchase.

Homer1946 · Jan 10, 2003, 03:17 PM

At first I thought the 12" PowerBook was just a G4 iBook, but after researching it, I think it really it the little cousin of the 17".

First, the case dimensions really are quite a big different than the iBook with key components in different places.

Also, I think it is using a new motherboard design shared with the 17 considering they both sport DDR RAM, Nvidia GPU's, built in bluetooth, ect...

I think it is fair to call it a stripped down PowerBook to be ultraportable rather than a G4 iBook, although the distinction may be academic.

-R

PeteWK · Jan 10, 2003, 05:03 PM

Originally posted by hsl:
the thing the 12" powerbook really lacks is 1mb level 3 cache.
I also would like it to get the backlit keybord...
and the possibility to max out the RAm to 1GB.

for the rest is it gorgeous (maybe a superdrive that's slow, but it's a small computer).

HSL

Re: the max ram of 640 on the 12in Powerbooks, those of us who were using such Powerbooks as the 190 and 1400 should remember when we groused about not being able to upgrade to 128mb of ram. Ah, but OS X has changed all that, hasn't it? And no complaints from me.

PeteWK

shatten22 · Jan 10, 2003, 06:50 PM

Well I'll complain. Why oh why oh why do they not go all the way and really give us what we want and need? We have been given a choice. But what if that choice was simply, do I want an ultra-speed portable with a 12" screen, or an ultra speed portable with a 15" or 17" screen?

I doubt that it would have hurt their sales if they gave us a real choice. If the minibook could be my desktop replacement (and it had a DVI output) I would have bought an Apple LCD also.

I'm upset, because I'm jonesing for an ultraportable with the power of the powerbook line. Truthfully, it's a beautiful design, a great idea and I would have been more than happy if they had included an L3 cache and a higher memory limit. I'm an Apple fan, but I'm also a realist. This is another example of them crippling their own designs to give themselves somewhere to go. Like I said before, I hope the IBM 970 gives Apple the ability to grow.

g

itai195 · Jan 10, 2003, 07:07 PM

You don't HAVE to get an Apple LCD, you know... There are other quality LCD manufacturers, with lower prices.

shatten22 · Jan 10, 2003, 07:15 PM

true, true. I do like deals. But you can get Applecare on everything if you buy it together, right? I might be wrong on that one - it may only apply to towers...

g

itai195 · Jan 10, 2003, 07:25 PM

Yeah you can, but I'm sure other LCD manufacturers have 3 year warranties too. I know Samsung does, and they make great displays... they actually manufacture Apple's LCDs as well.

shatten22 · Jan 10, 2003, 07:57 PM

Damn. I didn't know that. Thanks for the info.

g

icruise · Jan 10, 2003, 09:40 PM

I have a Samsung 172T 17" monitor. It cost a little over $500 in Japan, probably a bit more elsewhere. But it is under half of the cost of an Apple monitor with a DVI-ADC adapter, and it actually matches the new powerbooks much better than the Apple monitors. And yes, I believe it does have a 3 year warranty.

http://www.pcworld.com/reviews/artic...,106061,00.asp

photoeditor · Jan 11, 2003, 12:18 AM

Personally, I'm not too worried about the presence of a lower RAM limit in the 12 inch PowerBook, though I think it is ridiculous that Apple only solders 128 to the motherboard; there ought to be 256 minimum. People who buy the standard configured book with 256 (128+128) are going to be throwing away a lot of 128 memory modules. 128 should be enough for no one, 256 is enough for some, 768 should be OK for just about anyone who's OK with a 12 inch screen.

The bigger problem is the lack of a level 3 cache, particularly now that some developers -- I'm thinking of Connectix and Virtual PC here -- are focusing on using that cache as a means of boosting performance. With no L3 cache, the G4's current limit of 256 on the L2 cache makes the 12 inch PowerBook a significant step down from the iBook in this critical respect. I actually thought about selling my Gigabook for the 12 inch until I stumbled across this cache detail.

Most of the other stuff -- PC card, FW-800 etc -- isn't worth worrying about with all the I/O and the very fast CD burner that is built into this system as it is; not to mention the option of the first sub-$2,000 DVD burning laptop from any manufacturer if I'm not mistaken.

Apple should consider a DVI port, though, given their obsession with flat panel displays.

iChristopher · Jan 11, 2003, 04:55 AM

I don't care if you call it "herpes", it's a sweet laptop. It's something people have been whining about for years, so party down!

Since it's going to be a long time before the new machines show up, I've started to waffle between the 17 and the 12. I figure if I go 12, then I'd get me a big desktop system and use the 12 for the road. OR go with a 17 and use it as my desktop/road machine.

So many options, decisions, decisions...

It's nice to have options instead of 15" Ti or the Hi-way.

jamez bond · 05:58 AM

I do agree with ichristopher on this one...
Just this summer, I bought the Tibook667DVI. It's a great machine, and I feel that my work is cruising along like nothing else on this computer.

Then Apple throws out these new babies! They do look like a cross between TiBook and iBook, as mentioned earlier. Just look at hinges, portplacements, rounded lid, etc.

The 12" would be perfect for me, if it could have the 1gig ram (at least) and port-placement like on my TiBook. Don't know about you guys, but I would rather have a redesign of the hinge on the TiBook instead of the ports being placed on the side...No cover over them either...on a computer that is supposed to go on the road with you and be resistant to all the fluff in your bags?? I think this is a bad idea..
The small powerbook would be superduper fine if I could only have this...place a monitor at home and fly about with a tiny book for meetings, conferences, lectures etc.

But in the way they have made it now, it cannot be a desktop replacement for me.. (much 3D and CAD work). I'll just have to wait for more updates.
I am not phasing out my powerbook just yet, so I can afford to hold back a bit..guess there will be a bug or two to iron out of these new machines before they will be sparkling spot on as well.

Added:
I have never used the PCMCIA slot on my powerbook...wish I didn't have it at all. It does (yes, I know minimally) break up the shape of the computer down on one side. If someone buys a 12" and needs a slot like this, give me a call...might have one spare.

What do you guys want to use the pc slot for anyway? Is there anything that cannot be plugged into another slot that goes into the pc slot?

itai195 · Jan 11, 2003, 05:56 AM

I had a 500MHz TiBook, then an 800Mhz TiBook... When I bought the 800, I was waffling between it and the iBook because I really wanted something smaller than the Ti but more powerful than the iBook. The 12" PB fits the bill, I'll be getting one. Hopefully this time I'll be completely satisfied! Just glad that I got a nice discount on the Ti800 and that ebay exists

In other words, I totally agree with you iChristopher.

shatten22 · Jan 11, 2003, 08:19 PM

Eh. Some people love it, others want more. It's here and I'm guessing they'll sell a bunch. I just won't be moving mini because I don't have the bling for a dual setup and if I get one thing, it's my everything. It would have been nice to sport around with that minibook and come home and play on a 17" Samsung LCD.

My tibook 550 is going to stick around for awhile...

g

Superchicken · Jan 11, 2003, 08:27 PM

Sorry but... I think apple might have just realliy been thinking of lil me with the VGA port

hehe

Sorry but I'm soo looking forward to being able to buy a cheap CRT monitor and plugging it in. Although I guess I could do that with a DVI adapter eh?

Anyway... I'm soo getting one of these for college... and these were kinda what I was hoping the next iBook rev would be... sadly I'll be paying more for this than my dream iBook... but oh well I'll live... from now till July I only need to make 80 dollars Canadian a week and make some cash doing websites I already have worked out, and I shall be able to afford this thing.
I'm SOO Excited... and then in my dorm room I'll have a nice 17 or 19 inch monitor to hook it up to and work with digital photos and junk like that too... today I am more in love with Apple than I have ever been in the past :-D

icruise · Jan 11, 2003, 08:34 PM

Originally posted by shatten22:
It would have been nice to sport around with that minibook and come home and play on a 17" Samsung LCD.

My plan exacty...

ChrisB · Jan 11, 2003, 09:27 PM

I have to admit that I am not to worried about the 12inch PB either.

1) 640MB of RAM is still more than plenty, even for mid-high end editing on FCP or graphics work in Adobe Photoshop.
2) There are plenty of 18 and 19inch LCD's that do 1600x1200 and look very good - Samsung is a great quality top notch brand.
3) The lack of a PC Card slot isn't too bad - you have every port you need to add storage and accessories, and the wireless networking is internal. It does stick, but it's an ok compromise to get a PB at this price level.
4) This PB does need L3 cache though.

I agree that this PB is a welcome addition, worthy of praise just as the PowerBook Duo line was when it appeared.

Working professionals who need a smaller Mac laptop will eat this up, because the iBook just doesn't meet their needs.

Superchicken · Jan 11, 2003, 09:38 PM

I really hope apple brings these things up to 1Ghz with the next PB introduction... I'm scared they might wait a long time though... like... really scared...

shatten22 · Jan 11, 2003, 09:51 PM

Originally posted by Superchic[k]en:
I really hope apple brings these things up to 1Ghz with the next PB introduction... I'm scared they might wait a long time though... like... really scared...

me too... i hope we don't have to wait 6 months...

g

iChristopher · Jan 12, 2003, 03:40 AM

Go to http://macspeedzone.com/html/hardwar...omparison/all/

Look at the difference between similar machines. Unless you are an all day long number crunching, video compressing, DVD ripping, son of a gun - the dif between 867 and 1GHz isn't really worth the wait.

Seriously. It amazes me how many people WAY over pay for the faster processors when they don't even come close to utilizing them with what they do.

You guys may need the horsepower, and that's totally cool. I'm not saying YOU are "many people", just pointing out something I see allot around here.

Originally posted by Superchic[k]en:
I really hope apple brings these things up to 1Ghz with the next PB introduction... I'm scared they might wait a long time though... like... really scared...