[bstone]

As the question asks, 'How many homosexuals were stoned in murdered in Israel in the past 60 years?'

I am curious to know.

[nonhuman]

You may want to specify that they must have been murdered for being homosexual. Statistically speaking, I'm sure there have been Israeli murder victims who were homosexual.

[ort888]

And were totally stoned when it happened.

[finboy]

Originally Posted by bstone 

As the question asks, 'How many homosexuals were stoned in murdered in Israel in the past 60 years?'

I am curious to know.

Would it be relevant to know who stoned them?

[subego]

Originally Posted by ort888 

And were totally stoned when it happened.

I know John Zorn had an album based on slow ritualistic disembowelment while on opiates, but I don't think that was in Israel.

Or that the guy was homosexual.




What?

[Shaddim]

I got stoned in Tel Aviv once, but I'm not gay.

[bstone]

Let me rephrase: How many homosexuals in Israel have been stoned and/or murdered as part of the law enforcement/judicial system?

[besson3c]

Are we supposed to come up with a precise number here? 26? 15? 58?

[bstone]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Are we supposed to come up with a precise number here? 26? 15? 58?

Yes. I am curious to know how many homosexuals were stoned and/or murdered by the official Israeli judicial/law enforcement bodies in the past 60 years.

[Big Mac]

Trying to point out to the Left how much of a multi-cultural, tolerant, liberal democracy Israel is will have little effect on those with strong predispositions to hate Israel.

[bstone]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

Trying to point out to the Left how much of a multi-cultural, tolerant, liberal democracy Israel is will have little effect on those with strong predispositions to hate Israel.

I guess you're right. So far they have refused to answer this question.

[besson3c]

I figured it was a leading question, those are always so fun, especially now that a fictitious position for the monolithic left has been established!

[Big Mac]

I don't know if it's a leading question. It isn't that helpful of a question to pose, though. I think that those who have responded so far are not so thoughtlessly anti-Israel that the question would actually be useful in provoking any thought in them to the contrary. Furthermore, those who are so anti-Israel that they complete despise and reject the country either won't care at all about the fact that Israel does not carry out capital punishment or will be the type who actually condone stonings that take place in Muslim countries (radical Muslims).

I think a better point to make is that the radical Left finds itself partnered with a strange bedfellow in radical Islam, in that the two groups disagree sharply on most points except for being anti-Western/anti-Capitalist and anti-Jewish/anti-Israel. Like Glenn Beck has stated, both groups are allied currently because they have the same broad goals of destroying the West/America/Israel, and what the radical Left either doesn't understand or care about is the fact that where radical Islam comes to power it destroys and will continue to destroy many of the things the radical Left holds dear - namely secular society. For now the two groups are allied because they have larger common enemies, but that would change if the common enemy they have (good) were to be vanquished by their evil.

The radical Left (which I think represents most of the left-wing globally today) fights to destroy a weakly-Jewish, relatively high-functioning liberal democracy in order to replace it with a radical Islamic dictatorship and a societal mentality that celebrates the purposeful slaughter of Jewish infants in their cribs, suicide terrorism and explosives containing shrapnel to inflict the highest amounts of injury and pain to innocent civilians. Strange bedfellows that evil creates. Or, from another vantage point, maybe not so strange, just evil.

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

I dunno about evil, but definitely it's a function of ignorance.

That's the problem with trying to apply real-world logic and rational thought to many lefty wordviews- you'll get tripped up by all the astounding contradictions.


Personally, I think that it's not so much evil, but just that many lefties latch on to things without a clue what they're really about. Communism is cool because it's anti-capitalist and it's cool to rebel against your parents and the very thing that provides you food and a basement to live in. Details (like the fact that most communist shitholes criminalized homosexuality?) Doesn't fit on a bumper-sticker, so who knows, who cares.

Likewise, Israel is terrible because it's 'rich' and successful, therefore it must be because they cheated, so support the other side no matter who they are to 'level the playing field'. That other side's actual beliefs? Practices? Tyrannical governments that are in direct opposition to the secular democracy you supposedly love?

Doesn't matter, because as a lefty you don't delve into anything deeper than slogans and symbolism and mutual class-envy against the more successful nation, even if it's your own.

....unless of course you think you might get benefits from your own 'terrible country's' government in some manner. Then you want your 'terrible country's' government to be more powerful than any that's ever existed and in control of literally EVERYTHING. Again... the lack of real world logic can trip you up.

[Uncle Skeleton]

I never understood why you guys spend so much time worrying about what left-handed people think

everyone knows those sinister bastards don't "think" anything because they have no souls... it's a waste of time trying to suss them out

[CreepDogg]

This thread so far:

x = thoughts/opinions of posters on the original topic
1000x = projections of what nameless others might think about the original topic

[lpkmckenna]

Originally Posted by CRASH HARDDRIVE 

Communism is cool because it's anti-capitalist and it's cool to rebel against your parents and the very thing that provides you food and a basement to live in.

I don't know any communists, but don't recall "cool" ever mentioned in the works of Marx.

Likewise, Israel is terrible because it's 'rich' and successful, therefore it must be because they cheated, so support the other side no matter who they are to 'level the playing field'.

I don't know any critics of Israeli policies who think this way. So congrats on utterly, completely missing the point.

Doesn't matter, because as a lefty you don't delve into anything deeper than slogans and symbolism and mutual class-envy against the more successful nation, even if it's your own.

Compared to Canada, Israel is a god-forsaken cesspit. Why would I be envious of them?

[lpkmckenna]

Originally Posted by bstone 

As the question asks, 'How many homosexuals were stoned in murdered in Israel in the past 60 years?'

Probably none. There probably haven't been any homosexuals murdered by the state in Venezuela, Russia, SIngapore, or Mexico either, but I'm still entitled to be critical of their policies. Political criticism doesn't stand or fall by a single standard, silly.

I am curious to know.

No you aren't.

[Wiskedjak]

Wait, there haven't been any homosexuals murdered by the state of Israel in the past 60 years??? My god, that completely wipes out any unrelated criticism of the Israeli state and renders Israel wholesome and pure and better than every other nation on the planet.

Unrelated follow-up question:
How many homosexuals were stoned to death or murdered by Leftists in the past 60 years?

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak 

My god, that completely wipes out any unrelated criticism of the Israeli state and renders Israel wholesome and pure and better than every other nation on the planet.

Strawman. I don't think anyone would contend that Israel's liberal democratic orientation wipes out unrelated criticism, nor would anyone contend that the state of Israel is pure and better than every other country on earth. Israel is, however, very much superior in comparison to the vast majority of its state and non-state detractors.

In other news I'm now a big fan of Colombia.

[lpkmckenna]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak 

How many homosexuals were stoned to death or murdered by Leftists in the past 60 years?

In communist Russia and China, probably a lot. Perhaps not by stoning, though.

[Uncle Skeleton]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

Strawman.

Aaaaaand, scene.

No, I don't expect Big Mac or bstone to grasp the irony, but that doesn't mean the rest of us can't get a chuckle out of it.

[imitchellg5]

How many people were stoned to death at all anywhere in the world, besides Iran and Afghanistan? No modern state partakes in stoning.

[The Final Dakar]

The only thing stranger than this question is the expectation that a reliable, well tracked version of this number might be available somewhere out there.

[SpaceMonkey]

Did someone actually raise this as an issue in some other thread that I didn't see?

This is the most random non-besson3c thread in some time.

[Kerrigan]

The OP's question does make a strong rhetorical point regarding Israel's human rights vis-a-vis the Muslim world.

Of course, then the other side will counter by bringing up Israel's terrible record of bulldozing families' homes, internment camps, etc.... and the discussion spirals into another tired, circular debate over Israel.

The real question is: Do any of us really have a stake in the Israel/Palestinian conflict?

[Chongo]

Originally Posted by imitchellg5 

How many people were stoned to death at all anywhere in the world, besides Iran and Afghanistan? No modern state partakes in stoning.

It would be safe to say most, if not all of them, were women,

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by SpaceMonkey 

Did someone actually raise this as an issue in some other thread that I didn't see?

This is the most random non-besson3c thread in some time.

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by Kerrigan 

The real question is: Do any of us really have a stake in the Israel/Palestinian conflict?

Depends on what you mean by "stake". We're in Libya now helping new despots overthrow old for EU oil. By this standard yes, we have a metric butt-load of stake in the Israeli/Palestinian conflict.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

Strawman.

Sure, but the *title* of this thread is a strawman!

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton 

No, I don't expect Big Mac or bstone to grasp the irony, but that doesn't mean the rest of us can't get a chuckle out of it.

Chuckle all you wish, but the OP wasn't a straw man, it was a rhetorical question. Wikedjak responded with a strawman, but I wouldn't expect someone like you or Wiskedjak to grasp the difference.

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

Originally Posted by lpkmckenna 

I don't know any communists, but don't recall "cool" ever mentioned in the works of Marx.

Yeah, just a lot of blather about white supremacy, how all the 'inferior races' should be gassed (actually gave Hitler the idea) and a lot of other 'progressive' shit that libs never bothered to delve into. No duh, Marxism isn't 'cool''- it's brutal philosophy that when practiced has led to millions of people killed. Now tell that moron lefties that think it is cool.

I don't know any critics of Israeli policies who think this way. So congrats on utterly, completely missing the point.

Please. Every time the subject comes up, some lefty nitwit invaribly goes, "How come we don't give as much money to the Palestinians as the Israelis? Unfair! Boo hoo!" Like doing so would 'level some playing feild' that lefties are always whining about.

Meanwhile, in typical 'burn everything at both ends' fashion if we did actually support Israel's Islamic enemies to the same degree as the Israelis, then you and others would whine, "Wahh! You support dictatorships!" Guaranteed.

Compared to Canada, Israel is a god-forsaken cesspit. Why would I be envious of them?

The comparison wasn't to canukistan, it was to the Islamic nations.

The obvious answer to the (somewhat rhetorical) question posed by the thread title- that you've 'ohhh so cleverly' tried to dance around by bringing up every other nation that has nothing to do with anything- is: nowhere near as many (if ANY) as there are routinely in brutal Islamic regimes. Which then begs the question, so why is it that people that are supposedly in favor of gay rights and other benefits of a free and secular society feel the need to more often make excuses for and defend the brutal regimes, while piling on Israel? Big Mac pretty much laid it out. (I simply disagree with it being strictly due to 'evil'.)

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by lpkmckenna 

Compared to Canada, Israel is a god-forsaken cesspit. Why would I be envious of them?

I dunno, I went to Vancouver and it looked worse than Tel Aviv. Was really surprised to see the urban decay and drug dealers.

[imitchellg5]

Originally Posted by Kerrigan 

The real question is: Do any of us really have a stake in the Israel/Palestinian conflict?

Are you American? Then yes, you do.

[lpkmckenna]

Originally Posted by CRASH HARDDRIVE 

Yeah, just a lot of blather about white supremacy, how all the 'inferior races' should be gassed...

I'm sceptical about the former claim, and certain the later claim is rubbish. But I'm used to exaggerations and falsehoods from you.

Please. Every time the subject comes up, some lefty nitwit invaribly goes, "How come we don't give as much money to the Palestinians as the Israelis? Unfair! Boo hoo!" Like doing so would 'level some playing feild' that lefties are always whining about.

I've never heard of anyone say that. But I'm always surprised to see how eagerly conservatives defend the Carter "peace deal" between Egypt and Israel, which gives $3 billion a year to Israel, and $1.5 billion a year to Egypt, in what is the worst financial boondoggle to come out of the Carter administration.

Meanwhile, in typical 'burn everything at both ends' fashion if we did actually support Israel's Islamic enemies to the same degree as the Israelis, then you and others would whine, "Wahh! You support dictatorships!" Guaranteed.

Get a friggin clue. The US is allies with almost every Muslim nation in the middle east, including the most repressive, Saudi Arabia.

The comparison wasn't to canukistan, it was to the Islamic nations.

If you say so. I don't see that at all when you said "Doesn't matter, because as a lefty you don't delve into anything deeper than slogans and symbolism and mutual class-envy against the more successful nation, even if it's your own." My own nation is Canada.

Which then begs the question, so why is it that people that are supposedly in favor of gay rights and other benefits of a free and secular society feel the need to more often make excuses for and defend the brutal regimes, while piling on Israel? Big Mac pretty much laid it out. (I simply disagree with it being strictly due to 'evil'.)

One: you should look up the expression "beg the question" and see what it means, because you obviously don't know.

Two: liberals are critics of Islamic nations. We don't make excuses for them or defend them, that's entirely in your twisted mind. We criticize them for their abuses, we criticize Israel for their abuses, we criticize our own nations for their abuses. If you think liberals are looking the other way regarding gay rights in Muslims nations, you've entirely lost touch with reality.

[Big Mac]

I wonder if lpk has ever been to Israel to be able to make a harsh qualitative judgment like the one quoted. If lpk said he has been to Israel, please forgive my lack of knowledge on that particular point.

Regarding CH's point about it not being simply due to evil (sorry I don't feel like quoting posts I'm referencing right now), I agree it's not all about evil. It's a mixture of evil and ignorance more specifically (IMO).

As for Kerrigan asking if any of us have a stake in Israel and its conflicts, it obviously varies from person to person. For such a tiny country Israel has a huge share of the world's attention, so it's hard to avoid headlines about it (even if the effects of those headlines aren't directly felt by much of the world). For me it's very personal as a Jew who was raised to believe in Israel and Zionism (despite the faults of both that I was also taught), as a man who has a very strong personal connection to my spiritual homeland, its people (my people), its future, etc., because I have become much more of an observant Jew as an adult and pray ideally three times daily for Israel, and because I have many dear, beloved friends and teachers there, yes I have an immensely powerful stake in it. I also have as an eventual goal to "return home" permanently. I'm sure many of the other right-wing Jewish 'NNers would describe themselves very similarly.

Many Christian denominations are strongly supportive of Israel, regardless of whether or not they feel they have a personal or direct stake in Israel. There was a recent poll that found that American Jewish support for Israel is actually second to American Christian support for Israel. Some groups of people belonging to non-Abrahamic religions also are very strongly supportive of Israel, like many Hindu groups that have been impacted by Jihad are. For others again it varies. Some may not feel much of any stake, but I argue that anyone interested in a conflict between good and evil should feel a stake.

[imitchellg5]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

As for Kerrigan asking if any of us have a stake in Israel and its conflicts, it obviously varies from person to person.

If you're an American and you pay taxes, you've had a stake in Israel and its conflicts, what with $3b of military aid going to Israel every year.

[Big Mac]

Certainly mitchell, it's real money, but if that's the only reason why you care I think it's worth broadening your view a bit. $3 billion, while a very large sum of money by normal standards, is change under the couch in the face of an enormously bloated $3.7 trillion federal budget, $1.65 trillion of which is deficit. Congress could eliminate all $50 something billion in annual aid to all countries and it would make little difference to our deficit and debt malady. It's also worth noting that Israel's aid has remained around the same level for many years, so given inflation we're spending less on it than years ago.

And although many would argue the following point, foreign aid to Israel is a tiny investment with great returns, in my opinion, given all the good that Israel does for the world.

[imitchellg5]

Sure, it's a needle in the haystack. Nobody really knows where their money goes anyway. I am just saying that, even if you couldn't care less about the world outside of America, if you pay your taxes, chances are that a couple cents are going to Israel, thereby giving a connective thread, however relatively weak, to the issue at hand. At the very least, America's military aid to Israel keeps Mr. Ahmadinejad from going insane.(Which I would argue that due to the fact that nuclear weapons are atmospheric in nature, falls directly into the interest for everyone on this planet)

[Uncle Skeleton]

Originally Posted by imitchellg5 

I am just saying that, even if you couldn't care less about the world outside of America, if you pay your taxes, chances are that a couple cents are going to Israel

I think you have your cause and effect upside down. Our funding of them is the result, not the reason. The question is why do we fund them, what is our basis for that? If the only reason we care is because of sunk costs, then obviously we should stop further funding because that's a retarded reason.

[imitchellg5]

I don't understand. I give at least one reason in my last sentence.

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

Originally Posted by lpkmckenna 

I'm sceptical about the former claim, and certain the later claim is rubbish. But I'm used to exaggerations and falsehoods from you.

Which just goes to show you're a typical lefty completely ignorant of the REAL Marx.

I've never heard of anyone say that.

You've never heard anything other than what you wanted to hear, clearly.

But I'm always surprised to see how eagerly conservatives defend the Carter "peace deal" between Egypt and Israel, which gives $3 billion a year to Israel, and $1.5 billion a year to Egypt,

Someone needs a calculator. So 1.5 billion is 'as much' as $3 billion?
And no conservative defends much of anything done by the idiot Carter- in fact, he's a walking example of a liberal that NEVER in his life met a dictator whose ass he didn't kiss, or brutal regime he didn't strive to become a tool for. Thanks for bringing up a perfect example.

Get a friggin clue. The US is allies with almost every Muslim nation in the middle east, including the most repressive, Saudi Arabia.

Great, so next time the "Wahhh the US gives money to Israel!" non-argument comes up -as it did in the very last thread this tired subject came up- then let's keep that in mind. We DO support everyone else in the region, so there's no reason on earth that we wouldn't also support Israel, and therefore the ONLY reason to bitch and whine about the US supporting Israel is if your position is strictly ANTI-Israel. But of course you won't even remember this the next time you do the same thing YOURSELF.

If you say so. I don't see that at all when you said "Doesn't matter, because as a lefty you don't delve into anything deeper than slogans and symbolism and mutual class-envy against the more successful nation, even if it's your own." My own nation is Canada.

Right, I said more-successful nation.

Canadians have the opposite problem- rampant insecurity. In your case, it's good to see you finally breaking out of the typical stigma on this point and actually being proud of and defending where you're from, because you actually like and prefer the place. Keep it up. It's what everyone else does also, even if they pretend otherwise. Now if you'd just get to the point where you don't spend so much time worried about what goes on in places you DON'T live to the point of obsession...

One: you should look up the expression "beg the question" and see what it means, because you obviously don't know.

Right, the old semantic non-argument because you have no real one. Obviously I mean 'raise' the question...

Two: liberals are critics of Islamic nations.

Rarely, and never as critical of them as you are Israel.

We don't make excuses for them or defend them

Total bullshit- you do all the time.

We criticize them for their abuses,

Rarely, if ever.

we criticize Israel for their abuses

About the only accurate thing you said.

If you think liberals are looking the other way regarding gay rights in Muslims nations, you've entirely lost touch with reality.

In large part, liberals are looking the other way. I've never seen liberals criticize Muslims nations for their treatment of gays with anywhere near the frequency and vehemence as you criticize the US and Israel. Your only 'criticism' of the Muslim world is largely any support received from the US (and again I remind that that's a 'burned at the other end' argument from the usual whining why we DON'T support Israel's enemies to the same tune we support Israel- so really it's mostly only couched in 'guilt by association' criticism of the US.

Meanwhile, we've got much of Europe caving into the whims of militant Islamics invading their countries and wanting to change the societies in ways that are completely counter to modern secular democracies, and you libs are beside yourselves yelling 'racism' at anyone warning about the dangers of that.

[Chongo]

Originally Posted by lpkmckenna 

Get a friggin clue. The US is allies with almost every Muslim nation in the middle east, including the most repressive, Saudi Arabia.

Speaking of Saudi Arabia: Execution fear of gay Brit Stephen Comiskey battered in Saudi Arabia | The Sun |News

A BRITISH male nurse was arrested and savagely battered in Saudi Arabia for being gay - then warned he faced death by BEHEADING.

Religious cops lured Stephen Comiskey, 36, into an ambush by sending him texts posing as a friend of his.

They beat him up, flung him in a cell and told him he faced charges of homosexuality - a capital offence under the Muslim kingdom's Sharia law.

Stephen was throttled into signing a "confession" in Arabic he could not read before being released.

His passport was confiscated and he spent the next SIX MONTHS in limbo - terrified he would be dragged off and executed.

He was finally allowed to fly home this week after diplomatic talks.

Stephen, who was nearing the end of a contract at the King Fahad National Guard Hospital in Riyadh, insists he never flaunted his sexuality.

He said: "You have to understand Sharia law to know what I've been through. I've learned that you don't mess with these people - you cannot offend their culture or their law.

The Sun has known of Stephen's plight for six months but agreed to a news blackout until he returned.

The nurse, of Airdrie, Lanarkshire, says he never broke the law in the super-strict state where, in January 2002, three gay men were reported to have been beheaded for "ugly acts of homosexuality".

Diplomats believe his arrest was linked to the case of gay Saudi Prince Saud Abdulaziz bin Nasser al Saud, 34.

He was jailed for life last year for killing his servant Bandar Abdulaziz in a London hotel.

Saudi authorities are understood to have lobbied for the prince's homosexuality to be kept secret at his trial to avoid embarrassment at home.

But British legal chiefs refused, saying his sexuality was key to the case. Foreign Office chiefs fear Stephen was targeted in a tit-for-tat revenge.

A Saudi-based hospital source added: "Stephen's been through hell. His treatment was medieval."

The Foreign Office confirmed yesterday it had assisted a British man arrested in Saudi for breaching homosexuality laws last October.

[Uncle Skeleton]

Originally Posted by imitchellg5 

I don't understand. I give at least one reason in my last sentence.

I thought that was a joke. You really think that Israel prevents Ahmadinejad from going insane? Does he have an Israeli psychiatrist?

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by CRASH HARDDRIVE 

Now if you'd just get to the point where you don't spend so much time worried about what goes on in places you DON'T live to the point of obsession...

How many countries does the US have troops in?

[imitchellg5]

Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton 

I thought that was a joke. You really think that Israel prevents Ahmadinejad from going insane? Does he have an Israeli psychiatrist?

I think you can figure out what I mean.

[Uncle Skeleton]

Not in any way that makes it an accurate statement. Maybe you'd like to back it up somehow?

[imitchellg5]

Ahmadinejad has said many, many times that he'd like to wipe Israel from the face of the planet. I imagine if Israel were completely unarmed that he'd have done so already.

[Paco500]

Originally Posted by CRASH HARDDRIVE 

In large part, liberals are looking the other way. I've never seen liberals criticize Muslims nations for their treatment of gays with anywhere near the frequency and vehemence as you criticize the US and Israel.

I may have missed something because I, for the most part, avoid the Israel debate because I have such conflicting views on it, but I don't remember criticism of Israel on this board based on it's treatment of homosexuals. Can you point to a preponderance of criticism on this point? As to the question of the US, it may be a surprise to you, but a large percentage of members of this board are based in the US. Does it not make sense that people are more likely to want to discuss issues that affect them directly?

I also notice that you seem to be projecting the defense of what some people believe is the majority of Muslims- those that are non-radlicalised- as a defense of oppressive muslim regimes. There are those that view Michael Moore as one of the thought leaders of the "lefty" movement in the US (I think he is a blowhard on the scale of Beck and Limbaugh), but one of his seminal works, Fahrenheit 911, centers on and is highly critical of the relationship between Saudi Arabia and the US (to be fair, I haven't seen it- stopped watching anything of his following Bowling for Columbine- but I think I'm right). Most liberals abhor theocracies- muslim based ones included.

However many also abhor the blanket discrimination of an entire people based on the actions of some. Speaking out against discrimination is not the same as defending brutal dictators.

Aside from my view on Michael Moore (and by association, Beck and Limbaugh) you've not seen any of my own views expressed here- just what I believe you are missing about the views of others.

[lpkmckenna]

Originally Posted by imitchellg5 

Ahmadinejad has said many, many times that he'd like to wipe Israel from the face of the planet. I imagine if Israel were completely unarmed that he'd have done so already.

Why does anyone care what that man thinks? He has no power in Iran.