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You are here: MacNN Forums > Community > MacNN Lounge > So, the new Terminator movie is going to be even worse than expected

So, the new Terminator movie is going to be even worse than expected
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The Final Dakar
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ort888
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Oct 30, 2014, 12:30 PM
 
Each new Terminator movie has been about 50% as good as the one before it, so I don't have high hopes for this one.

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starman
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Oct 30, 2014, 12:38 PM
 
Originally Posted by ort888 View Post
Each new Terminator movie has been about 50% as good as the one before it, so I don't have high hopes for this one.
Um, no. T2 was far better than T1.

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The Final Dakar  (op)
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Oct 30, 2014, 12:40 PM
 
You have to read the leaked plot. While I can believe they're doing time travel gymnastics to maintain continuity, this plot is too far-fetched for me to buy, even by hollywood hack standards.
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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Oct 30, 2014, 12:41 PM
 
Originally Posted by starman View Post
Um, no. T2 was far better than T1.
That's a legitimate debate. I will give T1 fanatics one point of contention – kids in movies do tend to suck.
     
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Oct 30, 2014, 12:57 PM
 
Originally Posted by starman View Post
Um, no. T2 was far better than T1.
Oh, hell no.
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Oct 30, 2014, 12:59 PM
 
Jesus H. tap dancing Christ at the county fair - hollywood pisses me off when they do this kind of crap. there are so many wonderful original screenplays out there that never see the light of day.
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ort888
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Oct 30, 2014, 01:01 PM
 
I know a lot of people like T2 more, but Terminator is a way better movie.

Yes, the action in T2 was a lot slicker and the liquid metal man was cool, but it really is not a great movie and it's a really poor (and completely necessary) sequel to the first one. I could talk about this all day, but am a little tired of doing so.

This thread is about how terrible this new movie is going to be, and that's one thing I think any Terminator fan can agree on.

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The Final Dakar  (op)
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Oct 30, 2014, 01:04 PM
 
Originally Posted by ort888 View Post
Yes, the action in T2 was a lot slicker and the liquid metal man was cool, but it really is not a great movie and it's a really poor (and completely necessary) sequel to the first one. I could talk about this all day, but am a little tired of doing so.
I boil it down to age and appreciation for practical effects. I don't think younger people appreciate the original on that level. And kids like me who would've jizzed if they could've when the liquid metal CQ was shown off are seduced by the newer visual effects.
     
subego
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Oct 30, 2014, 01:16 PM
 
The script for T1 was ****ing tight. T2's script was problematic on many levels.

Shit blew up better in the second one. No question there.
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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Oct 30, 2014, 01:19 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
T2's script was problematic on many levels.
Feel free to expound. I'm sure there are a few I thought of, but forgot at the moment.
     
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Oct 30, 2014, 01:29 PM
 
I find the difference between T1 and T2 a little like the difference between Alien and Aliens (which Cameron also directed). Great movies all, but people usually tend to prefer either the original or the sequel because of the quite different approaches (which in both cases, is Cameron saying "let's go bigger...way bigger").

For all his legendary name, those three movies are also the only great films Cameron has ever made. (Assuming most rational movie watchers are prepared to acknowledge that Titanic and Avatar were gussed-up pandering turds.) So, yeah.
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The Final Dakar  (op)
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Oct 30, 2014, 01:30 PM
 
I have never watched Titanic of Avatar.
     
subego
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Oct 30, 2014, 01:35 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Feel free to expound. I'm sure there are a few I thought of, but forgot at the moment.
Admittedly, it's been 15 years since I've seen it, so certain details are lost.

What was most problematic for me is that the liquid Terminator was actually evil. It did nasty things just to do nasty things.

One of the things which was so brilliant about the first one was how well Arnie's character was written. That terminator wasn't evil. It's a robot. It doesn't have emotion. That's the point. However, his terminator was also efficient. He didn't kill you unless you got in his way.

The liquid one killed for the sake of killing.

What really killed it for me is a couple lines of exposition could have fixed it. "Skynet realized anger was an emotion that make the terminators more effective. They programmed this model to hate".
     
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Oct 30, 2014, 01:37 PM
 
@Shortcut

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The Final Dakar  (op)
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Oct 30, 2014, 01:39 PM
 
The dog is the only one I can think of as emotional and unnecessary. Arguably the husband too. Worth noting he doesn't kill the helicopter pilot.
     
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Oct 30, 2014, 01:46 PM
 
So killing the cops in T1 wasn't unnecessary?

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The Final Dakar  (op)
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Oct 30, 2014, 01:49 PM
 
Originally Posted by starman View Post
So killing the cops in T1 wasn't unnecessary?
It's been a while since I watched the movie, but he wasn't he essentially terminating all those standing between him and Sarah Connor?
     
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Oct 30, 2014, 01:51 PM
 
@Dakar

Assuming falling from a helicopter doesn't kill you, and it was trying to be a haha callback.

Think about it though. The callback was to Arnie telling the truck driver to get out in the first one.

Though a brief moment, there's tons of character exposition in that scene. It shows you the terminator won't kill you if you stay out of its way. It sends ripples back through the movie. When Arnie first beams in and goes "give me your clothes", had they done that, they would have lived. What was the pivot point in the gun store? It's when the store owner says "you can't load that in here".

I don't think there were scenes like that in the second. I mean, there specifically aren't, because both terminators are totally different, but there isn't a scene which shows that master stroke of the art of storytelling.
     
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Oct 30, 2014, 01:53 PM
 
One hand: happy for matt smith.

other hand: what the f?
     
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Oct 30, 2014, 01:53 PM
 
Originally Posted by starman View Post
So killing the cops in T1 wasn't unnecessary?
In the station?
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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Oct 30, 2014, 01:57 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
@Dakar

Assuming falling from a helicopter doesn't kill you, and it was trying to be a haha callback.
He also threw the truck driver out at the mall.

Originally Posted by subego View Post
I don't think there were scenes like that in the second. I mean, there specifically aren't, because both terminators are totally different, but there isn't a scene which shows that master stroke of the art of storytelling.
I think I agree with you. Optimistically, I could say the T-1000 was more ruthless. Arguably this is because, quite simply, the T-800 failed previously.

Still, I rather get off to his stonefaced sprint after the bike and car. He really comes off as a machine there.
     
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Oct 30, 2014, 01:58 PM
 
Just watched the beginning of that scene from T1 again. He asks to see Sarah Connor. The cop at the front desk says "no".

You get killed only for being in his way.
     
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Oct 30, 2014, 02:16 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Just watched the beginning of that scene from T1 again. He asks to see Sarah Connor. The cop at the front desk says "no".

You get killed only for being in his way.
Ripping a guy's beating heart out for not giving up his clothes wasn't excessive?

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Oct 30, 2014, 02:22 PM
 
Guess he didn't know his own strength.

However, I'll note, the issue at hand isn't how much the terminator ****s you up, it's whether he bothers in the first place. Dead is dead.
     
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Oct 30, 2014, 02:45 PM
 
The story of the second movie was a total retread of the first movie. It also violated all of the time travel rules they established in the first movie. They should't have been able to muck with the timeline at all. That was the entire premise of the first movie and they threw it right in the trash because they wanted more cool robot fights. It was clearly stated in the first movie that the humans had won and the robots sent the T-800 as a last ditch hail mary... so where the hell does the T-1000 come from? Why is it seemingly hundreds of years more advanced than the T-800? In what future universe could something like a T-1000 exist where any for of humanity could stand a chance against a force that could create something like that? How did it travel in time when it's 100% inorganic material? Why is all of the dialog so horrible? Why is the plot practically identical to the first movie?

I mean, there are few oddball things about the first movie, but unlike the second one, it's way more grounded and believable. The story is tight and it's a great action movie and a great sci-fi movie. The second one is just another dumb run of the mill action movie.

I agree that the action sequences are great and that it's a memorable fun movie... but it doesn't hold a candle to the first, which was a cultural milestone and a super influential movie for it's time. Arnold in Terminator is one of the greatest bad guys in the movies. Totally iconic.

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The Final Dakar  (op)
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Oct 30, 2014, 02:48 PM
 
Originally Posted by ort888 View Post
The story of the second movie was a total retread of the first movie. It also violated all of the time travel rules they established in the first movie. They should't have been able to muck with the timeline at all. That was the entire premise of the first movie and they threw it right in the trash because they wanted more cool robot fights. It was clearly stated in the first movie that the humans had won and the robots sent the T-800 as a last ditch hail mary... so where the hell does the T-1000 come from? Why is it seemingly hundreds of years more advanced than the T-800? In what future universe could something like a T-1000 exist where any for of humanity could stand a chance against a force that could create something like that? How did it travel in time when it's 100% inorganic material? Why is all of the dialog so horrible? Why is the plot practically identical to the first movie?
I'm okay with all these questions. Though I assume a 'living' metal could make the trip.
     
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Oct 30, 2014, 03:04 PM
 
Yeah. If it can effectively imitate flesh, then there you go.

That said, the time travel problems didn't occur to me. Very good point.
     
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Oct 30, 2014, 03:04 PM
 
For all his many flaws, I think James Cameron is pretty good.
If you accept that sometimes Hollywood does things it shouldn't for the sake of making a film more successful/popular and sometimes more entertaining, and that that usually entails some dilution of the quality of the story, Cameron has a pretty awesome track record when it comes to hit movies. The Abyss was probably his biggest flop (once he got going, lets not mention Piranhas) and its still a great movie. Flawed but great. He always gives you something, whether its something bigger, newer, better or whatever he gives you something that you probably haven't seen before or at least that draws you in and keeps moving along nicely.

People hate Titanic (now) but the truth is its a perfectly decent movie. The story is unworthy of any Oscars, but much of the rest of it is. Don't forget these blockbusters are commercial enterprises. Titanic included a nearly full size replica of the original ship. It had romance for the girls, enough action and humour for most of the boys, it trod a line between suitable for children and entertaining for adults, big star cast but a cast who could act, reality, fantasy, it ticks a lot of boxes.
Its likely that the reason everyone hates it is because they've seen it so many times or possibly its the damn song, though the same applies to that. Powerful ballad, decent singer (yes she's annoying but the girl can actually sing) and we all heard it 5 times a day for 6 months solid which is why we hate it now.
I worked in a cinema when Titanic came out and it was the only film that had queues that went out the doors at all and it did so for weeks.

Avatar was disappointing because the story was so unoriginal, but if you drink a couple of beers after a long day and switch your brain off, its an entertaining enough movie. It would be nice if the next one can do something a bit more interesting with the story though.

Back to Terminator and I still regret that they axed the Sarah Connor Chronicles. That was a good show. I hadn't heard this casting news about the new one. I think it might be time for a new Terminator though, Arnie is getting far too old. Can't see past The Rock as the only worthy replacement.
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Oct 30, 2014, 03:41 PM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
Its likely that the reason everyone hates it is because they've seen it so many times or possibly its the damn song, though the same applies to that.
Main reason I dislike it is that is way too long. They run up the deck, fall back down, run back up, and go down again before they finally get off the boat. The framing plot is also way too long. It seems that when the shoot ran over budget, it was cut into that extreme length instead of something more manageable to motivate a higher ticket price.
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Oct 30, 2014, 03:43 PM
 
Originally Posted by ort888 View Post
The story of the second movie was a total retread of the first movie.
They went after Dyson in the first film? No.

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Oct 30, 2014, 03:45 PM
 
So who is starring in the new Terminator movie? Sorry but I haven't heard anything about it.

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Oct 30, 2014, 03:52 PM
 
Those people you must not have recognized up top.
     
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Oct 30, 2014, 03:53 PM
 
Arnie, Doctor 11, Khaleesi.

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Oct 30, 2014, 03:54 PM
 
Originally Posted by ort888 View Post
The story of the second movie was a total retread of the first movie. It also violated all of the time travel rules they established in the first movie. They should't have been able to muck with the timeline at all. That was the entire premise of the first movie and they threw it right in the trash because they wanted more cool robot fights. It was clearly stated in the first movie that the humans had won and the robots sent the T-800 as a last ditch hail mary... so where the hell does the T-1000 come from? Why is it seemingly hundreds of years more advanced than the T-800? In what future universe could something like a T-1000 exist where any for of humanity could stand a chance against a force that could create something like that? How did it travel in time when it's 100% inorganic material? Why is all of the dialog so horrible? Why is the plot practically identical to the first movie?
.
While I mostly agree about the story complaints, they're not impossible to explain away. T-1000 could have been sent earlier when Skynet was doing OK, and T-800 later as last ditch attempt with an older model when it had lost the ability to make the more advanced model. Or they're from different branches, in that the T-800 changed the timeline enough to improve Skynet's fortunes so it could make the T-1000. Matrix, Dark Knight and avengers also have plot holes like this - they're still enjoyable movies. That the plot is the same as the prequel is not so uncommon in sequels from that era.

I do agree about the timeline manipulation in general though. T1 has the same plot device as The Time Machine: you cannot change the past if doing so would cause the time machine to never be created in the first place. In T2, they do exactly that, even if T3 tried to walk it back. I think it mostly works because most people didn't get the plot device from the first movie and so didn't notice here.
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Oct 30, 2014, 04:02 PM
 
Originally Posted by starman View Post
They went after Dyson in the first film? No.
He said "retread", not "identical".
     
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Oct 30, 2014, 04:29 PM
 
Each arrival changes things going forwards. We know almost nothing of the original timeline (with no arrivals from the future) except a T-800 was sent back targeting Sarah. That created a 2nd future, where Reese was sent back. Which changed the future to a 3rd version. Even Reese's explanation is suspect.

One idea I've toyed with. John Conner didn't exist until at least the 3rd future. So ignoring Reese's explanation, the original T-800 was targeted at Sarah. Not at a nonexistent son, but at Sarah. It follows that Sarah was leading the original rebellion, and had all but won it. Her son supplanted her in later cycles, but never managed to win.
     
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Oct 30, 2014, 04:32 PM
 
"I hate temporal mechanics."

     
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Oct 30, 2014, 04:33 PM
 
They must be getting a shitload of money to do this.

My humble opinion : Directors Cut of T2 was better than T1, even though T1 was excellent. T3 and Salvation were shite.

OK, I laughed at Arnie's crap attempts at comedy right at the beginning of T3.
( Last edited by mattyb; Oct 30, 2014 at 04:40 PM. Reason: Gonna watch T1. Need to verify what ort said.)
     
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Oct 30, 2014, 04:37 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Those people you must not have recognized up top.
Weird. When I first came in the thread your OP only had text. No pics displayed at all.

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The Final Dakar  (op)
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Oct 30, 2014, 04:38 PM
 
Someone beat the hamster.
     
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Oct 30, 2014, 04:44 PM
 


Look, a DVD, how quaint.
     
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Oct 30, 2014, 06:51 PM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
For all his many flaws, I think James Cameron is pretty good.
There's nothing wrong with the populist point of view. He's made billions of dollars.

But, Boston Legal is your favourite TV show. You're very, very wrong.
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Oct 30, 2014, 07:03 PM
 
Well look at all the comics (e.g., Avengers, Spiderman, Thor), and how many times they've been rehashed. That brings in money, now in 3D... and now in 4K/8K cinema. They just HAVE to replay everyone's memories of a movie so it's like the first, but with cooler, special effects, because Los Assholes can recycle special effects with minimal cost and people buy it.

I predict this is the same direction that Terminator will go. Every two years, another remake will come out, the plot will make less sense, and everyone will buy it anyway.

Yes people. The Terminator franchise sold out twice. Guess where it's going: to hell in a handbasket.
     
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Oct 30, 2014, 08:46 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Why does the guy on the right look like Conan?
     
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Oct 30, 2014, 09:26 PM
 
Now that I look at them again, those pictures are truly a travesty. Wow. Whoever greenlit that shoot should be...shot
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subego
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Oct 30, 2014, 09:38 PM
 
The guy with the big head isn't even looking at what he's shooting.
     
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Oct 31, 2014, 09:01 AM
 
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The Final Dakar  (op)
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Oct 31, 2014, 09:16 AM
 
Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton View Post
Now that I look at them again, those pictures are truly a travesty. Wow. Whoever greenlit that shoot should be...shot
That was why I started the thread. I was making fun of them.
     
 
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