[npeterh]

Today I went to Best Buy to see what the competition is offering. Not that I want anything else than a portable Mac but I wanted to see what was out there.
-After talking to the store guy, who seemed quite knowledgable, he confirmed that most PC laptops gets 1-2 hours of battery time of normal use, unless it is a Centrino which gives 4-5 hours.
-For games, you need a Pentium 4 not a Centrino which cuts down battery time.
- Most pc laptops dont have dedicated video memory for the GPU

A pc laptop with a good processor, decent battery life and dedicated videoram for the GPU is around $2500! Makes me feel better about a future upgrade to a PB G4 from my Pismo.
When I look at what is included in a Powerbook and see what that would cost in a pc laptop it makes the Powerbook look like a bargain or at least not overly expensive.
However almost all pc laptops now have the new type of laptop screens "bright something" technology. It definately is a lot brighter and they also have the "HD" wide resolution of 1900+ horizontal pixels.
It looks very impressive next to a laptop with a standard screen! Is this the future for the next generation Powerbook, regardless of G5 or dual G4?

Apart from the screen I think the current batch of powerbooks offer a lot for the money.

Comments?

/Pete

[osxisfun]

i have to agree.

if the $999 ibook (and all ibooks) did not limit us to 1024x768 it would be hands down the best buy in the lowend laptop space.


its still up there but i just wish they had more rez.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally posted by osxisfun:
if the $999 ibook (and all ibooks) did not limit us to 1024x768 it would be hands down the best buy in the lowend laptop space.

That's why it is limited to 1024x768 ... Apple would rather have people wanting higher resolutions buying PowerBooks

[Wiskedjak]

Originally posted by npeterh:
-After talking to the store guy, who seemed quite knowledgable, he confirmed that most PC laptops gets 1-2 hours of battery time of normal use, unless it is a Centrino which gives 4-5 hours.
...

A pc laptop with a good processor, decent battery life and dedicated videoram for the GPU is around $2500!

You do know that the PowerBook doesn't get much more that about 2 hours of battery time with normal use, right?

[Agent69]

I can't speak about battery like but from what I have, the Pentium M processor is pretty impressive for its performance. I think that the G4 could compete if its clock speed could be increased.

[veauger]

Originally posted by Wiskedjak:
You do know that the PowerBook doesn't get much more that about 2 hours of battery time with normal use, right?

Mine gets about 3 hours under *my* normal use, which is just Eclipse, UML CASE tool, and Office, plus whatever supporting things I need like Safari, about 5-6 Preview windows, Adium, and a few terminals. I'm always exceeding my physical memory, and thus always swapping in and out, so I would think that at least has some toll on the battery life since the HDD cant spin down ever. I always keep the screen about 2 clicks below the brightest setting, and I don't use the keyboard backlight while on battery. Thats on a PB 1.5 512MB with a 4 month old battery that gets run down to at least the teens every day. And I just finished watching a few Farscape episodes, and that certainly took longer than 2 hours. So I guess it just all depends on your definition of normal use. If you want to watch your battery get the life sucked out of it, try playing UT2004 on battery.

[DarwinX]

Originally posted by npeterh:

Comments?

/Pete

I very much agree with this post. I had the same debate last May. I've always been an Apple guy, but all my schooling was in the PC world so I at least wanted to look at both products. Knowing I was going to get a laptop, I weighed all the options and for me it came down to the very items you listed. It just seemed to me that when you really sat down to look at it PowerBooks were just hands down better. If you want something as tiny as the 12" on the PC side, you pay out the butt for it and it won't always have built in opitcal drives. If you want something with as much power as a G4, then the machines are monsters. The video memory was a HUGE sticking point for me. I didn't want such a big chunk of system memory being shared to the video card.

Now days I just laugh and wondered why it took me so long to figure that out.

I'm still of course looking forward to that G5 PowerBook

[porieux]

last time I was at Best Buy I looked at the PC laptops too, and honestly I thought most of the screens looked like ass. For some reason they seem to think it's 'cool' (or something) to put shiny glass in front of the screen, which looks terrible and causes awful glare. No thanks!

[fridexter]

I think your problem is that you had to get a Best Buy salesman to educate you about PC laptops. Way to go! Now you're just as smart as most PC users about Macs.

[jzdziarski]

I think there's a little misinformation here, and what he actually described to you was Apple vs. Best Buy (not Apple vs. PC). Best buy normally stocks the crap, and if you've ever walked around their store you'll see they carry the crap brands like HP/Compaq and Sony. A real $2500 laptop such as an IBM, Toshiba or even Dell is going to have dedicated VRAM, a Pentium-Centrino, higher resolution than a 15" Powerbook, and as far as games go there is just no beating what's available for a PC. You'll easily pull 5-6 hours out of a laptop in this class as long as you're not burning up the CPU playing games (games will also shorten the powerbook's battery life).

Now about Centrino; this sales guy was clearly ignorant. The centrino *clocks* slower than a Pentium-4, but it's actually a lot *faster* because it has more cache. And the only difference between a Centrino and a Pentium-M is _marketing_. Intel only lets companies using Intel's Wireless NIC in conjunction with the Pentium-M to use the name "Centrino" whereas Pentium-M's use a different Wireless NIC. It's the same processor!

The Thinkpad I just transitioned out of ran about $2500 list when it was new. Its 2Ghz processor noticeably outperformed my 17" Powerbook at many things including video encoding, compiling my own software, FPS in games, and naturally GUI speed - all of this with a 4200 rpm drive in it. On the other hand, I didn't buy my Powerbook because it was "faster". I bought it because it's a better machine with a better operating system - at least for what I need to do. If you're looking for just gaming, Apple (even today) can't touch the PC market. The fact that PCs are so good at gaming is why the smarter and more successful people are easy to spot - they're using Macs.

So, being a converted PC user, I'm inclined to say that the things you've heard are slightly skewed - but even still, I still think Mac is a better choice.

--

http://www.nuclearelephant.com/papers/apple.html
Transitioning from Linux to Apple

[Wiskedjak]

Originally posted by fridexter:
I think your problem is that you had to get a Best Buy salesman to educate you about PC laptops. Way to go! Now you're just as smart as most PC users about Macs.

Agreed. The Bestbuy salespeople know only slightly more about their PC products than they know about their Mac products.

[Drakino]

Originally posted by npeterh:
-For games, you need a Pentium 4 not a Centrino which cuts down battery time.

Benchmarks seem to disagree with the underpaid Best Buy employee. Also, even Intel is talking about how much better the Pentium-M is lately, with their last public demonstration showing a P-M chip beating a P4 chip at games and other things. Intel will be going into full marketing swing here to try and tell people clock speed doesn't matter, since the 3.8ghz P4 is the end of that line. Going forward, dual core and P-M based CPUs will be what Intel pushes for both desktops and laptops.

Quick summary from the article:

While putting up impressive gaming numbers is one thing, one simply must consider the benefits of the Pentium-M architecture in comparison to these other high-end CPU�s. The Pentium-M can compete typically perform within 5% of top of the line Intel/AMD consumer level processors in gaming while running at one fourth the heat production levels. Power consumption numbers are also far, far less on the Pentium-M compared to other modern processor lines. Basically, you�re getting solid gaming performance without all the nasty side effects of running at high clock speeds, thanks to the efficiency of the Dothan core architecture.

Also keep in mind that the Dothan Pentium-M is running on a fairly old feature set, and it can still put up numbers on par with today�s fastest gaming processors. The Pentium-M doesn�t have technologies such as Hyper-Threading, Dual Channel DDR-400/DDR2 memory, on-die DDR memory controllers, or fast graphics interfaces like AGP 8x/PCI Express. It performs this well on antiquated platform technologies, which immediately makes us think of how well this processor could perform with a modern chipset.

[Pierre B.]

Originally posted by DarwinX:
If you want something as tiny as the 12" on the PC side, you pay out the butt for it and it won't always have built in opitcal drives.

So true.

If you want something with as much power as a G4, then the machines are monsters.

The monster laptops have processors much faster than a G4. However, having seen with my eyes such laptops, new and used, I would take into consideration to use one for my personal needs only if someone offered it me as a gift. And certainly, not on my lap .

[striker100]

The Powerbooks are great no doubt. You don't need to buy a "monster" PC notebook for it to be powerful and fast. If you notice all the Pentium M processor notebook PC's at CompUSA, BestBuy and the like top out at 1.8GHz even though Pentium M notebooks at 2.1GHz have been available for months at Dell and IBM on the web.
Believe me an IBM Thinkpad T42, either the 14" or 15" version with a 2.0 or 2.1GHz PM processor and 60gb 7200rpm hard drive is plenty fast and by no means a monster.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally posted by Pierre B.:
The monster laptops have processors much faster than a G4. However, having seen with my eyes such laptops, new and used, I would take into consideration to use one for my personal needs only if someone offered it me as a gift. And certainly, not on my lap .

Ah, but you are comparing apples to oranges here. Yes, the "monster laptops" are much bigger than the PowerBook, but they're also much more powerful. The PowerBook is much more comparable to THIS PC laptop, and it's about the same price. The differences; PB has a bigger HD and is 1lb lighter; Sager has a better CPU and better battery life.

Personally, I wouldn't be buying a laptop from BestBuy

[MORT A POTTY]

going to best buy for any type of computer shopping is like going to Wal Mart for "Fashion" apparel. it's just a bad idea.

[wuzup101]

Eh you can pick up some good deals at best buy... DVD-Rs and networking hardware .... maybe a monitor when they have them on sale. Asking for advise at best buy is what you don't want to do...

[MichaelSullivan]

Blah! Buying a computer at Best Buy/ Comp USA/ Circuit City is only as bad as the un-informed buyer goes. It doesn't matter where you buy the computer, as long as you've done your homework. Sometimes Best-Buy just has good deals and/or rebates.

And remember, its SALESPEOPLE that work these stores. Hell, I went into the local Apple Store here in Colorado and they didn't even know the difference between bluetooth versions in the PBs. They were useless when I asked about Airport Extreme Base stations, and I had to show them the specs that I printed out and brought with me. They were about as good as the Apple website (which is what they referenced) when I asked them questions.

If you go into one of these stores (Best-Buy OR The Apple Store) and really expect anything but a sales pitch, your fooling yourself. Do your homework. Research what you want. Read the reviews of the computers BEFORE you go into the store.

[MichaelSullivan]

Originally posted by npeterh:
...However almost all pc laptops now have the new type of laptop screens "bright something" technology. It definately is a lot brighter and they also have the "HD" wide resolution of 1900+ horizontal pixels. It looks very impressive next to a laptop with a standard screen! Is this the future for the next generation Powerbook, regardless of G5 or dual G4?

Pete, I had this same gripe about the PB display. I was ready to buy a 1.67GHz 15" PB when I put it next to a Sony Vaio (which is what I use now) and compared the display. I was dissapointed enough not to purchase the PB that day, and wanted to do some more research on the display differences.

Apple features conventional LCD
Sony models feature LCD with x-brite technology
HP/ Compac feature LCD with Brightview
Toshiba models feature TruBrite

This flash link demonstrates Sony's x-brite technology pretty well, but in short the new LCD technologies consist of two additions: two sources for lighting plus a display filter that looks like a sheet of glass in front of the LCD display. Conventional LCD has one source for output, and no filters between the LCD screen and your eyes. http://www.sonystyle.com/intershopro...XBRITE_V51.swf

Pros: Sharper contrast, brighter colors, whiter whites, blacker blacks.

Cons: higher glare from the glass filter. More expensive. Generally available only on Windows machines.

Sure, the powerbook display is good compared to any laptop with a conventional lcd screen, but compare it to a monitor/ x-brite/ briteview screen and you'll see the difference immediately. Play a DVD on each system for even more proof. I sure wish that Apple would catch up to the rest of the market when it comes to their LCD display.

(Yes, I know I'm going to get comments like: "conventional LCD looks fine", "It doesn't bother me", "it looks good enough" etc. But, simply put: these new technologies put conventional LCD to shame.)

[jzdziarski]

Wow, the flash proves I must have XBrite in my Powerbook, after all it can display both "With XBrite" and "Without XBrite"

/sarcasm

[audvidsvs]

I had to work with two of the Sony's the other day that had the XBrite screen.
They look great on first impression but as I used them longer I quckly became frustrated.
I was working in an office where the light was just right and no outside light was coming in.
About 10:00a.m. the sun starts coming in through the windows and I had to move the Sony's twice and then close the blinds as there was too much glare to see the screen at all.

We have been using this same trick/technique in the Video field for years.Place a peice of black float glass in front of a monitor to enhance the contrast. I am surprised it has taken this long to trickle down to laptops although NEC used to offer a "Lens" for their crt monitors and they worked exactly this same way too.

The glare can be bad!

Also I can easily get 3-4 hours from the battery in my 12"RevB so I don't agree with the 2 hour comment above from my experience.

That said,I have no problem buying from B.B. or any other mass merchant but they usually will not carry anything high-end. There just isn't enough market for them too.
I have noticed that the demographics do have a lot to do with this though.
Big stores in smaller markets will carry different product mixes. I suppose they are the main source in these markets and do sell a higher end machine as they are a little less likely to compete with a small higher-end dealer.

I also agree that the IBM T-series is competitve on every level with the PB's and I like the Toughbooks too.

[jzdziarski]

And of course the only time you'd need the X-Brite would be outside, in the sun.

[MichaelSullivan]

I've used a sony with xbrite for the last 5 years, and I can firmly say that the screen looks much closer to a monitor view than a PB display. The newest technology looks just like a HDTV view... really sharp. It greatly helps out, colors look MUCH better. That said, using xbrite outside actually lets on more glare, not less... so I don't recommend it. At the end of the day, the xbrite/trubright/brightview technologies deliver much better screen view than traditional LCD.

I was looking at a filter that is placed on the PB screen that attempts to do something similar (enhance contrast/color). info here: http://www.powersupportusa.com/produ...hp?category=pb

[porieux]

If Apple put out these 'Xbrite' screens or whatever you call them it would have kept me from buying a Powerbook. They look awful.

[spacedog]

Just wanted to throw my experiences onto the pile. I run a 17"PB 1GHz (soon to be replaced with a 12" 1.5) and a ThinkPad T41 1.7GHz M.

First off, these are both excellent computers. In my experience with PC laptops, IBMs are, without a doubt, the best systems available and their build quality is only second to Apples'. My T41 is extremely fast and reliable, has a 7200RPM drive, and a very high resolution screen (1400x1050). It also has DVI, gigabit ethernet, bluetooth, and other high-end features not often found in PC laptops. But, like a PowerBook, it was nearly $3000. Worth it, yes, but not cheap.

The biggest disappointment with the ThinkPad has been the battery life. My previous experiences had taught me that PowerBooks had great battery life and that PC laptops were worthless without a power adapter. The Centrino / M platform was supposed to change all of that but, at least in my experience, the battery life is still crap. I have to tote my power brick to any long meeting and, even worse, the sleep mode on the ThinkPad drains the batteries like no other. If I sleep the system and leave it in my bag all weekend (as I often do), it has often dropped from a full charge to < 20%...just while sleeping.

Oh, and wireless connectivity management sucks. SP2's manager is just barely adequate. The IBM Access Connections software is better, but not very elegant. In general, you will spend more time futzing around with configurations than you _ever_ should. Oh, and XP has a fun little bug that prevents you from reliably connecting to a Microsoft VPN network over a wireless connection. Ironically, this works fine on my Mac.

Sorry this is so long. I use both of these machines all day and they're both really good at many tasks. Apple consistently provides me with fewer headaches, though.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally posted by porieux:
If Apple put out these 'Xbrite' screens or whatever you call them it would have kept me from buying a Powerbook. They look awful.

You only say that until Steve gets up on stage telling everyone about Apple's industry leading iBright technology in the G5 PB.

[jzdziarski]

Spacedog, I think you'll see much better battery life running Linux on that T41. XP is a pig.

[porieux]

Originally posted by Wiskedjak:
You only say that until Steve gets up on stage telling everyone about Apple's industry leading iBright technology in the G5 PB.

Nope. I tell it like it is. Putting a piece of glass in front of a screen looks like crap. It looks like crap when you do it with a plasma TV, and it looks even worse on a laptop screen.

[Dalhectar]

Originally posted by npeterh:
-For games, you need a Pentium 4 not a Centrino which cuts down battery time.
- Most pc laptops dont have dedicated video memory for the GPU

A pc laptop with a good processor, decent battery life and dedicated videoram for the GPU is around $2500!

I have to disagree with you on these points.

Check out some of the benchmark reviews of Centrino, and you'll find the Centrino a very capable gaming laptop.

From GamePC:

The Pentium-M can compete typically perform within 5% of top of the line Intel/AMD consumer level processors in gaming while running at one fourth the heat production levels.

On the dedicated video memory. What is hard is finding a laptop under $1500 with dedicated memory bandwidth. Thanks to Dell however, it's not too hard. Currently the Inspiron 5160 model is available for $800 according to GotApex.com, but its GPU is about the same as an iBook's. Also it has a Desktop CPU that will eat batteries for lunch. A better option would be a Centrino based Inspiron 6000 or Inspiron 600m that combines dedicated low end graphics (like an iBook) with a Centrino CPU. I priced up those two for a friend and they run at $1200 and $1275, but include MS Office and Norton. I list these examples only to show that there are Windows systems out there that at least spec wise aren't POS and are affordable.

Going up against the powerbook you can price a Inspiron 9200 with a 2GHz Centrino, 17" screen, 1GB of RAM, 60GB 7200 hard drive, Upgraded battery, Super Drive and Mobility 9700 with 128MB of ram for $2K, or the price of a 15" powerbook which is much less than the price of the 17".

But all this stuff proves only 2 things in the end.
-Don't buy Windows machines (especially laptops) from BB, Circuit City, or any brick and mortar place
-Apples are better computers unless you need a super fast windows environment for your work and/or play.

I for what I do on my powerbook: the battery life, included software, lack of bloatware, wireless management, weight and size, and design are all solid reasons to not go with a Dell or anything else. If you need a PC though, you can find a good one, just not in a store. best Buy and other stores knows the general public doesn't know jack about computers, so they load up on cheap or overpriced and gimmicked products to lure customers. one day at BB I saw a laptop loaded with Windows Media Center Edition. Why would someone need a laptop with MCE loaded on it? It's rather hard to record TV shows when you are moving your laptop around. Defeats the point of portability. I'm sure Gateway or other online vendors can match Dell easily, but Dell's website is the easiest to configure a solid laptop with what you need and not the extra crap.

[Dalhectar]

Sorry, wanted to correct link in previous post but ended up making a new post that I cannot delete.

I have to disagree with you on these points.

Check out some of the benchmark reviews of Centrino, and you'll find the Centrino a very capable gaming laptop.

From GamePC:


On the dedicated video memory. What is hard is finding a laptop under $1500 with dedicated memory bandwidth. Thanks to Dell however, it's not too hard. Currently the Inspiron 5160 model is available for $800 according to GotApex.com, but its GPU is about the same as an iBook's. Also it has a Desktop CPU that will eat batteries for lunch. A better option would be a Centrino based Inspiron 6000 or Inspiron 600m that combines dedicated low end graphics (like an iBook) with a Centrino CPU. I priced up those two for a friend and they run at $1200 and $1275, but include MS Office and Norton. I list these examples only to show that there are Windows systems out there that at least spec wise aren't POS and are affordable.

Going up against the powerbook you can price a Inspiron 9200 with a 2GHz Centrino, 17" screen, 1GB of RAM, 60GB 7200 hard drive, Upgraded battery, Super Drive and Mobility 9700 with 128MB of ram for $2K, or the price of a 15" powerbook which is much less than the price of the 17".

But all this stuff proves only 2 things in the end.
-Don't buy Windows machines (especially laptops) from BB, Circuit City, or any brick and mortar place
-Apples are better computers unless you need a super fast windows environment for your work and/or play.

I for what I do on my powerbook: the battery life, included software, lack of bloatware, wireless management, weight and size, and design are all solid reasons to not go with a Dell or anything else. If you need a PC though, you can find a good one, just not in a store. Best Buy and other stores knows the general public doesn't know jack about computers, so they load up on cheap or overpriced and gimmicked products to lure customers. one day at BB I saw a laptop loaded with Windows Media Center Edition. Why would someone need a laptop with MCE loaded on it? It's rather hard to record TV shows when you are moving your laptop around. Defeats the point of portability. I'm sure Gateway or other online vendors can match Dell easily, but Dell's website is the easiest to configure a solid laptop with what you need and not the extra crap.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally posted by porieux:
Nope. I tell it like it is. Putting a piece of glass in front of a screen looks like crap. It looks like crap when you do it with a plasma TV, and it looks even worse on a laptop screen.

I think the glass makes it look excellent and it serves to protect the screen. However, I think it also decreases the usability of the screen by increase glare/reflection. However, alot of Mac users will point out all the flaws in a competitors product and then rave about it when Steve unveils the same thing only with an Apple logo on it (read, lcd with a computer glued onto the back of it)

Is the glass a necessary element to an xbright type display? These lcd's are much brighter than a typical lcd, including those on Apple laptops which appear dim in comparison

[porieux]

Originally posted by Wiskedjak:
I think the glass makes it look excellent and it serves to protect the screen. However, I think it also decreases the usability of the screen by increase glare/reflection.

That's a contradiction, but whatever makes you happy.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally posted by porieux:
That's a contradiction, but whatever makes you happy.

Not at all. Quite often things can look good but have the very thing that makes them look good negatively affect performance.