[Big Mac]

MacNN | Gates slams Mac ads, questions Mac security

I got a real kick out of what old Bill had to say. He's getting very combative these days, which points to him perceiving the Mac as a genuine threat once again.

[Gossamer]

Oh gosh.

[Gates] also referenced the frequent discovery of flaws in Mac OS X. "Nowadays, security guys break the Mac every single day. Every single day, they come out with a total exploit, your machine can be taken over totally. I dare anybody to do that once a month on the Windows machine."

[Jawbone54]

Read that a few minutes ago. He really does seem irritable, which is hilarious.

[Chuckit]

Haha!

[M]aybe we shouldn't have showed so publicly the stuff we were doing, because we knew how long the new security base was going to take us to get done

Maybe they should have set the release date accordingly, then. At least the third time.

[Severed Hand of Skywalker]

He is cranky because in the past when MS ripped off Apple either people didn't realize it or care.

Now with Apples grown popularity it seems everyone is calling him on the fact that Vista is 10.2 and he is getting cranky.

[ThisGuy]

that's it. i'm switching to windows.

[olePigeon]

Originally Posted by Gossamer 

Oh gosh.

[Gates] also referenced the frequent discovery of flaws in Mac OS X. "Nowadays, security guys break the Mac every single day. Every single day, they come out with a total exploit, your machine can be taken over totally. I dare anybody to do that once a month on the Windows machine."

� Super Bowl stadium site hacked, seeded with exploits | Zero Day | ZDNet.com

[Rumor]

Originally Posted by Bill Gates

"I don't know why [Apple is] acting like it’s superior. I don't even get it. What are they trying to say? Does honesty matter in these things, or if you're really cool, that means you get to be a lying person whenever you feel like it? There's not even the slightest shred of truth to it."

Originally Posted by iskippy

not the slightest shred?
Okay, Bill, then explain how my ONE YEAR OLD PC at work would need a new video card (according to the Vista upgrade analyzer) to take advantage of all of Vista's new graphic doodads. Oh, and it's not like the PC has integrated graphics: it's a 256 MB Radeon 9250.

heh

[::maroma::]

Yeah, I can't tell you how many times my Mac has been totally taken over by hackers.

Oh thats right, I can tell you...zero.

[Y3a]

Bill thinks that Longhorn(or whatever cheese they are naming it) is the same as OS X, and has been confused as to which OS has actually been taken over week afer week after week, after week, after week.

[lpkmckenna]

I have lost all respect for Gates.

Well, certainly we've done a better job letting you upgrade on the hardware than our competitors have done.

Is he for real? Tiger can run on a 400 MHz G3 (I tried it). Every version of OS X gets a little more responsive than the last.

If you’re interested, [Vista development chief] Jim Allchin will be glad to educate you feature by feature what the truth is.

Wait, didn't he want to switch to the Mac?

Nowadays, security guys break the Mac every single day. Every single day, they come out with a total exploit, your machine can be taken over totally. I dare anybody to do that once a month on the Windows machine.

Step away from the crack pipe, Bill.

Does honesty matter in these things, or if you're really cool, that means you get to be a lying person whenever you feel like it? There's not even the slightest shred of truth to it.

Look in the mirror.

I don't even get it.

Finally, some truth.

[::maroma::]

Gates should really just break totally away from Microsoft and concentrate on giving his money away. Right now, he's doing more harm than good for MS. People like us (who are "in the know" about the computer industry, on both sides of the fence) know the score. His lies and complete lack of understanding when it comes to these questions just show how ridiculously detached he is from the rest of the industry.

I think these words, as well as many other statements he's made about Vista, will come back to bite him in the very near future. Most likely just after 10.5 is released and the industry is buzzing about the 2 OS's. Vista will have had some time to sink in, revealing all its issues and hiccups. People will be quoting these interviews. Bill will be backtracking. It will be very amusing to witness.

[Severed Hand of Skywalker]

Didn't Bill think that by today most PC sales would be tablets?

[BRussell]

Originally Posted by Bill Gates

So, yes, it took us longer, and they had what we were doing, user interface-wise. Let’s be realistic, who came up with [the] file, edit, view, help [menu bar]? Do you want to go back to the original Mac and think about where those interface concepts came from?

Does anyone know if that's true? Did MS first have the file, edit, etc. menu bar?

[::maroma::]

Originally Posted by Severed Hand of Skywalker 

Didn't Bill think that by today most PC sales would be tablets?

Bill thought a lot of things would happen that never has. He has always made very broad and general predictions on the industry. He's usually wrong. In fact, I can't recall a time when he was correct.

Bill Gates has never been a visionary. Ever. He build MS on slimy business practices, and flat out copying technologies from competitors. Then he made it a juggernaut by bullying and buying out any form of competition he could find. So Windows infected everything, and now Bill is treated like some sort of amazing visionary genius. He's nothing more than a business man who made the right moves and got pretty damn lucky.

I really would like someone to show me a time when MS truly innovated something that made a difference. Or show me a time when Gates proclaimed something that came to fruition. And not a very general blanket statement like "in the future, we'll all be on the internet while watching T.V.!" Anyone?

[Severed Hand of Skywalker]

Originally Posted by BRussell 

Does anyone know if that's true? Did MS first have the file, edit, etc. menu bar?

I dunno did MS have it before 1983?
DigiBarn Software: Lisa OS and Applications

Unless he was saying Apple copies off Xerox and that makes MS copying it ok.

[::maroma::]

Originally Posted by BRussell 

Does anyone know if that's true? Did MS first have the file, edit, etc. menu bar?

No, he was talking about Xerox. They had that GUI interface before Apple and before MS stole it from Apple. Jobs saw it at Xerox, tried to get them to sell it to him, but ended up copying it. Its never been denied by Apple or Jobs. Gates falls back on that age old event as his defense mechanism for his constant and blatant ripoffs.

[Severed Hand of Skywalker]

Originally Posted by ::maroma:: 

I really would like someone to show me a time when MS truly innovated something that made a difference.

What the Bob OS, Zune, Media centre, tablets, Origami, and IE aren't good enough for you?

[::maroma::]

Originally Posted by Severed Hand of Skywalker 

What the Bob OS, Zune, Media centre, tablets, Origami, and IE aren't good enough for you?

Haha, oh yeah, how could I have forgotten about those monumental innovations!

[MadanKnightRyukendo]

Originally Posted by BRussell 

Does anyone know if that's true? Did MS first have the file, edit, etc. menu bar?

No, they didn't. They wouldn't have even had a GUI if it wasn't for Steve Jobs.

The funniest part is how smug Gates is. Several months back I had a PC I custom built by hand. It ran XP Pro SP2. All I had to do to make the entire system crash was to run Windows Media Player. Yeah. In a computer built with 1 GB of RAM and an Athlon 64 3300+. Once every day or two it would lock up just as bad without provocation (to the point where forcing a power down was the only option).

[Rumor]

MS invented paper folding? Who would have thought it.

[Eug]

Well, to be fair, I find those Mac ads incredibly misleading.

Originally Posted by ::maroma:: 

Bill thought a lot of things would happen that never has. He has always made very broad and general predictions on the industry. He's usually wrong. In fact, I can't recall a time when he was correct.

Bill Gates has never been a visionary. Ever. He build MS on slimy business practices, and flat out copying technologies from competitors.

You mean like Excel?

[Severed Hand of Skywalker]

Originally Posted by Eug 

Well, to be fair, I find those Mac ads incredibly misleading.

True but not half as much as what bullshit Bill is pushing with "First to make DVD's, etc."

[Adam Betts]

Originally Posted by ::maroma:: 

I really would like someone to show me a time when MS truly innovated something that made a difference.

I'd have to say Xbox 360 LIVE although Xbox department is pretty different (with cool, creative people) from typical Microsoft's departments.

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by ::maroma:: 

No, he was talking about Xerox. They had that GUI interface before Apple and before MS stole it from Apple. Jobs saw it at Xerox, tried to get them to sell it to him, but ended up copying it. Its never been denied by Apple or Jobs. Gates falls back on that age old event as his defense mechanism for his constant and blatant ripoffs.

 
Apple did purchase the right (by giving Xerox shares of Apple stock) to tour the Palo Alto Research Center where Jobs and some Apple engineers saw the GUI concept. But the GUI Xerox had at that time was rudimentary compared to the GUI that Apple came up with for the Lisa and Mac. Gates has always claimed that Jobs stole Xerox's work and that M$ just did the same thing in turn later on, but that's false. Windows was a rip-off of the Lisa/Mac UI, and Gates is knowingly lying outright when he says otherwise.

[Severed Hand of Skywalker]

Originally Posted by Adam Betts 

I'd have to say Xbox 360 LIVE although Xbox department is pretty different (with cool, creative people) from typical Microsoft's departments.

it is true the only cool thing from MS is the Xbox but it is more of a spin off company that doesn't just worry about what big cooperate customers will think.

[::maroma::]

Originally Posted by Eug 

You mean like Excel?

Was Excel the first spreadsheet app?

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by ::maroma:: 

Was Excel the first spreadsheet app?

No, that was: VisiCalc

I thought you guys were nerds.

[scottiB]

Originally Posted by ::maroma:: 

Was Excel the first spreadsheet app?

I believe VisiCalc and Lotus 1-2-3 preceded it.

[Sub]

It's funny how much of a ass someone can be.

[Chuckit]

Gates is right about one thing, which is that Microsoft does seem to have made some efforts to make Vista more secure at its foundations that go well beyond what Apple's done. I still expect most of the higher-level technologies to be swiss cheese, though, which is where most exploits come from anyway.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by ::maroma:: 

Was Excel the first spreadsheet app?

No, but it was the first major truly GUI-ified spreadsheet and it was for the Mac. It was the face of the business world to come, when business types said GUIs were a waste of CPU cycles.

Excel for the Macintosh was a major achievement IMO.

[::maroma::]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

Gates is right about one thing, which is that Microsoft does seem to have made some efforts to make Vista more secure at its foundations that go well beyond what Apple's done. I still expect most of the higher-level technologies to be swiss cheese, though, which is where most exploits come from anyway.

The security enhancements in Vista are all well and good, but it is unfair to compare them to Apple's efforts. There isn't the urgency factor, and the vulnerability factor for security on the Mac OS. Windows massive user base and its history of being extremely vulnerable forced MS to make major improvements to security. Why would Apple devote all that time and effort into something that, at least at this point in time, is unnecessary?

[Eug]

Originally Posted by ::maroma:: 

The security enhancements in Vista are all well and good, but it is unfair to compare them to Apple's efforts. There isn't the urgency factor, and the vulnerability factor for security on the Mac OS. Windows massive user base and its history of being extremely vulnerable forced MS to make major improvements to security. Why would Apple devote all that time and effort into something that, at least at this point in time, is unnecessary?

In truth, that is a cop out answer. Regardless of the Mac user base, the design of OS from the ground up should arguably center around security, given the fact that Apple supposedly wants 5% of the installed base, and most of those computers will be connected to various networks at some time or another. That's an awful lot of computers, and at that number even the dubious security-through-obscurity argument falls by the wayside.

BTW, the same could be said of earlier versions of NT. They didn't have the need for a heavy security focus. Well, guess what happened. Apple had the benefit of building upon unix's designs, and learning from Microsoft's mistakes.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by Eug 

No, but it was the first major truly GUI-ified spreadsheet and it was for the Mac. It was the face of the business world to come, when business types said GUIs were a waste of CPU cycles.

I thought Lotus 1-2-3 had a GUI.

[Eug]

Lotus 1-2-3 was a DOS program until after Excel came out.

[ironknee]

Are you bugged by the Apple commercial where John Hodgman is the PC, and he has to undergo surgery to get Vista?
I've never seen it. I don't think the over 90 percent of the [population] who use Windows PCs think of themselves as dullards, or the kind of klutzes that somebody is trying to say they are.

funny that bill says he hasn't seen the apple ad...come on. and of course windows users wouldn't consider themselves dumbasses, they can't tell the difference

[::maroma::]

Originally Posted by Eug 

In truth, that is a cop out answer. Regardless of the Mac user base, the design of OS from the ground up should arguably center around security, given the fact that Apple supposedly wants 5% of the installed base, and most of those computers will be connected to various networks at some time or another. That's an awful lot of computers, and at that number even the dubious security-through-obscurity argument falls by the wayside.

BTW, the same could be said of earlier versions of NT. They didn't have the need for a heavy security focus. Well, guess what happened. Apple had the benefit of building upon unix's designs, and learning from Microsoft's mistakes.

I disagree. I think the Mac OS is a very secure OS at this point. There haven't been any major deal breaking holes found. No one needs virus protection or spyware watchers on the Mac. That tells me both that the user base is small, and that the OS is solid and secure for what it is at this time. I have no worries that when (not if) the Mac OS reaches a much higher user base, and becomes more prone to security breeches it will adapt and continue to be a very secure OS, as it is today. I mean I don't understand how Gates can compare the 2 OS's security-wise and not take that fact into account. Windows was (and perhaps still is) full of very serious security holes, that were uncovered on a very regular basis. I get regular security updates from Apple, yet I've never personally known anyone with a Mac getting hacked into, or getting some major virus.

You can bet that if the Mac OS were to come under fire from hackers Apple would make huge improvements to security. They don't have to at this moment because their OS is solid and secure.

[ironknee]

And I don't know why [Apple is] acting like it’s superior. I don't even get it. What are they trying to say? Does honesty matter in these things, or if you're really cool, that means you get to be a lying person whenever you feel like it?

sorry to keep quoting, i love this new design...anyways this could have been a line from any highschool kid who wasn't popular

[Eug]

Originally Posted by ::maroma:: 

I disagree. I think the Mac OS is a very secure OS at this point. There haven't been any major deal breaking holes found. No one needs virus protection or spyware watchers on the Mac. That tells me both that the user base is small, and that the OS is solid and secure for what it is at this time. I have no worries that when (not if) the Mac OS reaches a much higher user base, and becomes more prone to security breeches it will adapt and continue to be a very secure OS, as it is today. I mean I don't understand how Gates can compare the 2 OS's security-wise and not take that fact into account. Windows was (and perhaps still is) full of very serious security holes, that were uncovered on a very regular basis. I get regular security updates from Apple, yet I've never personally known anyone with a Mac getting hacked into, or getting some major virus.

You can bet that if the Mac OS were to come under fire from hackers Apple would make huge improvements to security. They don't have to at this moment because their OS is solid and secure.

It took a very long time for Apple to fix the the HUGE Safari Dashboard widget download security hole.

Something like this should have never happened in the first place. I'm no coder, but from what I'm told, the widget install security mistake is something even undergrad computer engineering students should not make, and I can most definitely understand why.

[C.A.T.S. CEO]

dammmmmmmmmm.............

he needs to retire....like.....now

[slpdLoad]

Just read the article. He seemed really defensive.

Kinda funny that he came off as such a jerk in an article on MSNBC

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by Eug 

Lotus 1-2-3 was a DOS program until after Excel came out.

Well, yes, but unless I'm mistaken, it had its own primitive GUI with "windows" and a menubar rather than being a simple command-line app. You can hardly say Microsoft was innovative just because they made a program for Macintosh rather than DOS.

[Cody Dawg]

I want to know what John Hodgeman uses? PC or Mac? (He plays the part of the pee cee in the Macs ads.)

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg 

I want to know what John Hodgeman uses? PC or Mac? (He plays the part of the pee cee in the Macs ads.)

Mac.

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by Eug 

It took a very long time for Apple to fix the the HUGE Safari Dashboard widget download security hole.

That's true - Apple has been lax with certain holes and bugs in the OS, and if a major hacker campaign were waged it would probably catch Apple very much off guard. But the claims Gates made about security are an entirely different matter, and I think we can all agree that what he said was laughable on its face. I just like thinking about Gates going nuts every time he sees a Mac ad.

[vmarks]

Originally Posted by ::maroma:: 

No, he was talking about Xerox. They had that GUI interface before Apple and before MS stole it from Apple. Jobs saw it at Xerox, tried to get them to sell it to him, but ended up copying it. Its never been denied by Apple or Jobs. Gates falls back on that age old event as his defense mechanism for his constant and blatant ripoffs.

Actually, no, Xerox did sell it to Apple.

http://www.sitepoint.com/article/real-history-gui/5

"Apple negotiated a deal with Xerox; in return for a block of
Apple stock, Xerox allowed Jobs and his team to tour PARC in
December 1979, take notes, and implement some of the ideas
and concepts being bounced around at PARC in their own
creations."

"As Wozniak says on his Website, “Steve Jobs made the case to
Xerox PARC execs directly that they had great technology but
that Apple knew how to make it affordable enough to change the
world. This was very open. In the end, Xerox got a large block of
Apple stock for sharing the technology."

[::maroma::]

Originally Posted by vmarks 

Actually, no, Xerox did sell it to Apple.

http://www.sitepoint.com/article/real-history-gui/5

"Apple negotiated a deal with Xerox; in return for a block of
Apple stock, Xerox allowed Jobs and his team to tour PARC in
December 1979, take notes, and implement some of the ideas
and concepts being bounced around at PARC in their own
creations."

"As Wozniak says on his Website, “Steve Jobs made the case to
Xerox PARC execs directly that they had great technology but
that Apple knew how to make it affordable enough to change the
world. This was very open. In the end, Xerox got a large block of
Apple stock for sharing the technology."

My bad, good call. Not sure why it was in my head that Apple swiped it.

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by ::maroma:: 

My bad, good call. Not sure why it was in my head that Apple swiped it.

I just wanted to point out I was the first one to reply with a correction.

[olePigeon]

Someone mentioned that, within the past 12 years, there have been roughly 140,000 potential security holes in Windows.

That equated to 1 security hole every 45 minutes for the past 12 years.