[besson3c]

Originally Posted by - - e r i k - - 

FOSS is like communism, it sounds great in theory but it's hopeless to implement in practice. Human nature sees to that.

I guess you haven't learned from our last "debate" about speaking precisely, huh? The good results of many FOSS projects defy this generalization.

[- - e r i k - -]

But of course. The last resort of a Linux defender:

Rather than admitting defeat, moving the target to "I don't care. Linux works for me." and call it a day. In the process of course contradicting yourself yet again with "What is politically correct is trying to skirt around laziness, ignorance, or making it seem like a crime that I understand things that they don't." again displaying the attitude you claim just isn't there.

All too predictable.

As for insight, I recommend these:
The Fallacy of Choice
I hate Copy and Paste
Wild Rationalizations
Tada! (On sound drivers, look for Adobe's chart of Linux audio drivers in the comments)
Of Silos and Samba

[- - e r i k - -]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

I guess you haven't learned from our last "debate" about speaking precisely, huh? The good results of many FOSS projects defy this generalization.

I guess YOU haven't learnt to read and comprehend properly have you?

The "good results" of a FEW FOSS projects are exceptions due to being run like commercial projects with a hierarchy and actual funding, not like some hobby voluntary king of the hill ego-clashfest.

[ctt1wbw]

Holy ****, people. If you want to spend 350 to 500 bucks for an operating system, get Windows. If you want a free operating system, free office suite, free photo editing app, free everything, then get Linux. If you like spending money, then Linux isn't for you.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by - - e r i k - - 

But of course. The last resort of a Linux defender:

Rather than admitting defeat, moving the target to "I don't care. Linux works for me." and call it a day. In the process of course contradicting yourself yet again with "What is politically correct is trying to skirt around laziness, ignorance, or making it seem like a crime that I understand things that they don't." again displaying the attitude you claim just isn't there.

That's nice, don't care.

All too predictable.

As for insight, I recommend these:
The Fallacy of Choice
I hate Copy and Paste
Wild Rationalizations
Tada! (On sound drivers, look for Adobe's chart of Linux audio drivers in the comments)
Of Silos and Samba

Summarize the points you would like to discuss here, if any, I don't feel compelled to read this guy's stuff and then debunk pieces line by line here. If you are to summarize, start with anything he says about FOSS in general or Linux on servers, because I don't really care about Linux on the Desktop - there is much less there to disagree with.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by - - e r i k - - 

I guess YOU haven't learnt to read and comprehend properly have you?

The "good results" of a FEW FOSS projects are exceptions due to being run like commercial projects with a hierarchy and actual funding, not like some hobby voluntary king of the hill ego-clashfest.

Dude, you just have no idea what you are talking about. Do you have any clue how many protocols alone were hashed out by committee? Do you know what an RFC is? These alone call for peer reviews and community involvement in having new standards approved. Yes, design by committee is less efficient than design by dictatorship (and often doesn't produce good results), but there still have been plenty of projects that have worked out well this way. You are exaggerating by characterizing them as only "a few".

[- - e r i k - -]

Compared to the VAST number of failed FOSS projects then yes, a few is a very appropriate moniker. Design by committee does not work. Period.

And please, if you want to continue resisting to actually do some research (irony about your "laziness" comments aside), we have really nothing to discuss. Get over your stubbornness and do some reading. It can only do you good.

[Mastrap]

Originally Posted by ctt1wbw 

Holy ****, people. If you want to spend 350 to 500 bucks for an operating system, get Windows. If you want a free operating system, free office suite, free photo editing app, free everything, then get Linux. If you like spending money, then Linux isn't for you.

As I've said before, Linux is only free as long as your time has no value.

[- - e r i k - -]

Originally Posted by ctt1wbw 

Holy ****, people. If you want to spend 350 to 500 bucks for an operating system, get Windows. If you want a free operating system, free office suite, free photo editing app, free everything, then get Linux. If you like spending money, then Linux isn't for you.

Linux is for cheap people who's time is worthless you say? Thanks for making yet another point clear.

You too are part of the problem, because as lusers like to point out, "Free as in FREEdom, not beer".

That philosophy I have no problem with (wonkily worded as it is), it's implementation is what I have a problem with.

[ctt1wbw]

Originally Posted by - - e r i k - - 

Compared to the VAST number of failed FOSS projects then yes, a few is a very appropriate moniker. Design by committee does not work. Period.

And please, if you want to continue resisting to actually do some research (irony about your "laziness" comments aside), we have really nothing to discuss. Get over your stubbornness and do some reading. It can only do you good.

So if one FOSS project fails, the whole entire FOSS is a failure? Talk about stubborness.

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

Originally Posted by - - e r i k - - 

Oh, but it very much is so. Look at /., look at any mailing list ending in -devel, look at the Ubuntu help forums, look at Sourceforge, look at Richard Stallman, look at Linus Torvalds, Look at the comments at LHBs blog. Hell, look at your own comments.

This is a prevalent, and serious issue in the Linux/FOSS community from top to bottom and some serious introspection is needed. Like LH, I fear it's too late and it is a mire from which there is no escape.

FOSS is like communism, it sounds great in theory but it's hopeless to implement in practice. Human nature sees to that.

Dude, you seriously need to step away from the computer now and then and get some fresh air.

You're actually engaging in some weird platform war against yourself. I believe its the first time I've ever seen anyone do that.

[ctt1wbw]

Originally Posted by - - e r i k - - 

Linux is for cheap people who's time is worthless you say? Thanks for making yet another point clear.

You too are part of the problem, because as lusers like to point out, "Free as in FREEdom, not beer".

That philosophy I have no problem with (wonkily worded as it is), it's implementation is what I have a problem with.

I'm not part of a problem. I like to use free software. Is that a problem? And what's the difference in implementation between Microsoft Office and Open Office, besides the lack of a credit card transaction?

[- - e r i k - -]

Originally Posted by ctt1wbw 

So if one FOSS project fails, the whole entire FOSS is a failure? Talk about stubborness.

This comment isn't even worth replying to. I'd tell you to re-read the thread, but I fear it is too far gone with you.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by - - e r i k - - 

Compared to the VAST number of failed FOSS projects then yes, a few is a very appropriate moniker. Design by committee does not work. Period.

You didn't compare the number to the number of failed FOSS projects, did you? Remember the whole precision thing?

Design by committee does indeed not work, but an independent design that is strengthened by peer review and approved by the tech community as having a sensible and sound design that support can be built from does indeed work. Are you not a fan of H.264, or any other standard that has come up this way?

And please, if you want to continue resisting to actually do some research (irony about your "laziness" comments aside), we have really nothing to discuss. Get over your stubbornness and do some reading. It can only do you good.

Characterizing what crap you have shared with us as the source of "research" is like saying that Ann Coulter is a good research source for a balanced, objective, and reasonable political opinion. If what you have shared is not indicative of this person's work, fine, but so far I'm utterly unimpressed.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Mastrap 

As I've said before, Linux is only free as long as your time has no value.

As I've said before, this is a load of crap. How is this not some sort of elitist computer attitude like Erik is getting so upset over?

Like I said, experimentation, meandering, and exploration are all a part of how we learn. This has a tremendous amount of value. Becoming proficient at being an IT involves expanding comprehension and problem solving abilities. You don't get this from Microsoft A+ certifications, or whatever they are called.

[- - e r i k - -]

Originally Posted by CRASH HARDDRIVE 

You're actually engaging in some weird platform war against yourself. I believe its the first time I've ever seen anyone do that.

You just don't get it do you? I criticise Linux and FOSS, not because I hate it and WANT it to fail. But because I WANT it to be a viable alternative and I don't see it happening. The system is flawed, the community is flawed and god damn it - the shiny philosophy is flawed.

People are slowly realising that, but I think it might be a case of too little too late.

[- - e r i k - -]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Characterizing what crap you have shared with us as the source of "research" is like saying that Ann Coulter is a good research source for a balanced, objective, and reasonable political opinion. If what you have shared is not indicative of this person's work, fine, but so far I'm utterly unimpressed.

Again, I implore you to READ the thing. You are still not getting it. LH is not Ann Coulter - he is Mark Twain. Satire, not hate-speech. Criticism, not zealotry.

Is it really too subtle for you to comprehend? Or are you just content to repeat your knee-jerk reactions over and over?

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by - - e r i k - - 

You just don't get it do you? I criticise Linux and FOSS, not because I hate it and WANT it to fail. But because I WANT it to be a viable alternative and I don't see it happening. The system is flawed, the community is flawed and god damn it - the shiny philosophy is flawed.

People are slowly realising that, but I think it might be a case of too little too late.

Why hasn't Microsoft taken out Unix/Linux in enterprise/server computing then, after all of these years and all these vast resources Microsoft has had at their disposal?

Oh wait, you're talking about Linux on the Desktop again, aren't you? Precision Eric, precision... say what you mean, we don't want to have to piece together your meaning for you.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by - - e r i k - - 

Again, I implore you to READ the thing. You are still not getting it. LH is not Ann Coulter - he is Mark Twain. Satire, not hate-speech. Criticism, not zealotry.

Is it really too subtle for you to comprehend? Or are you just content to repeat your knee-jerk reactions over and over?

Maybe reading this guy's stuff is only worth it if your time has no value?

I'll tell you what, share with me your favorite link and I'll read through it with my mind open.

[Mastrap]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

As I've said before, this is a load of crap. How is this not some sort of elitist computer attitude like Erik is getting so upset over?

Like I said, experimentation, meandering, and exploration are all a part of how we learn. This has a tremendous amount of value. Becoming proficient at being an IT involves expanding comprehension and problem solving abilities. You don't get this from Microsoft A+ certifications, or whatever they are called.

As I've said before, I want and need tools that work. I have no interest at all to tinker with my computer to make it work. That's why I use a Mac in the first place. It just works and I can get on with the stuff I do.

If you want to spent your time mucking about with your setup, all power to you. My priorities are elsewhere.

[- - e r i k - -]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

You didn't compare the number to the number of failed FOSS projects, did you? Remember the whole precision thing?

Precision seems to be the buzzword of the day for you, yet you are the one who keep moving the targets and ignoring the big picture. Do I really need to put up a shiny graph or numbers to compare successful FOSS projects to failed ones? Mere casual observation should show you that.

Again, I will quote from the articles you refuse to read:

Originally Posted by LHB

Projects like the kernel and firefox are exceptions in a sea full of shitty projects. They are how open source projects should be run. They've figured out how to create value that people will pay for. They have paid people working on them, producing valuable code, solving real problems, and are usually shipped in usable, tested ways.

(...)

The good stuff is what the smart guys with good business models get paid to work on. The vast majority of the rest is crap. Not too unlike commercial softare you say? No ****. It's been happening for years.

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Design by committee does indeed not work, but an independent design that is strengthened by peer review and approved by the tech community as having a sensible and sound design that support can be built from does indeed work. Are you not a fan of H.264, or any other standard that has come up this way?

As I've said again and again: I'm a great fan of FOSS when it works. Webkit, H.264, any number of server technologies I rely on. I love it. It does however take MORE for those projects to succeed than the rabid Free-Everything® FOSSers are willing to admit - yourself included.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Mastrap 

As I've said before, I want and need tools that work. I have no interest at all to tinker with my computer to make it work. That's why I use a Mac in the first place. It just works and I can get on with the stuff I do.

It just works as long as you stay in the confines of the comfortable little bubble that Apple has designed for you. What happens when the day comes that you have to leave that bubble? Do you just wait patiently for somebody to write some sort of tool that "just works" precisely as you want it to (and probably with a GUI, since that is the Mac way)? I guess in my line of work, I simply don't have that luxury...

If you want to spent your time mucking about with your setup, all power to you. My priorities are elsewhere.

I respect that, but your assertion that Linux is not worth it for anybody who values their time is not only wrong, but it could be interpreted as insulting. Linux is worth it to those who would net a profitable return on their time investment - either directly or indirectly (the latter if your priorities do require this sort of problem solving periodically). The same can be said of any operating system or any set of tools, Linux is no different in this respect.

[- - e r i k - -]

Again, you are talking from the point of a server admin view. Most of the world aren't the IT world's equivalent of car mechanics.

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

Originally Posted by - - e r i k - - 

You just don't get it do you? I criticise Linux and FOSS, not because I hate it and WANT it to fail. But because I WANT it to be a viable alternative and I don't see it happening. The system is flawed, the community is flawed and god damn it - the shiny philosophy is flawed.

People are slowly realising that, but I think it might be a case of too little too late.

I just don't get your obsession with something you don't even use, yet I do, and have no problems with it? True.

I just don't get your hatred of FOSS? I couldn't care less one way or the other, because everything in the world isn't some either/or, us vs. them, hill to fight and die on. Is it perfect? Probably not, but I don't give a rip. It's just another set of tools.

You might as well get up in my face and rant at me about the Black and Decker philosophy vs. the DeWalt communist manifesto. "Read the blogs! Look at any mailing list ending in /drillbit!!! What about Joe DeWalt and Billy Bob Decker!???! How can you just hammer in a nail without worrying about viable alternatives to the Stanley do-hickey-whatchacallit!!!??!"

I don't give a flying rip about anyone else's personal issues and windmill-jousting over everything- if a freakin' tool does a job the way I want it to, I'll use it.

"Linux community" Where is that anyway? Just outside Cleveland? I've never been there. I don't care about any 'Linux community' or any 'Linux philosophy' either. But clearly you're obsessed with it, so by all means, keep checking the newsgroups and reading Linux blogs so you can keep yourself outraged over it. Sounds very productive.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by - - e r i k - - 

Precision seems to be the buzzword of the day for you, yet you are the one who keep moving the targets and ignoring the big picture. Do I really need to put up a shiny graph or numbers to compare successful FOSS projects to failed ones? Mere casual observation should show you that.

You're absolutely right, but your mistake is in assuming that I would even dispute that. The problem is, you didn't say that, did you?

Most FOSS projects fail just as most startup companies (tech or otherwise, commercial or not-for-profit) fail, and often for similar reasons.

Projects like the kernel and firefox are exceptions in a sea full of shitty projects. They are how open source projects should be run. They've figured out how to create value that people will pay for. They have paid people working on them, producing valuable code, solving real problems, and are usually shipped in usable, tested ways.

(...)

The good stuff is what the smart guys with good business models get paid to work on. The vast majority of the rest is crap. Not too unlike commercial softare you say? No ****. It's been happening for years.

This is falsely misleading. He managed to type this thanks to the very protocols that came from unfunded developers that managed to solve real problems. How do you account for that?

As I've said again and again: I'm a great fan of FOSS when it works. Webkit, H.264, any number of server technologies I rely on. I love it. It does however take MORE for those projects to succeed than the rabid Free-Everything® FOSSers are willing to admit - yourself included.

More than what, commercial projects? Maybe, maybe not, but the numbers are much different (number of funded software companies vs. open source developers), so this comparison is difficult to make. There are also many projects that are funded from grant money or something, but where agendas and deadlines are not dictated by commercial interests. What about when commercial companies hit financial difficulties and turnover becomes really high? What about when commercial companies take poor design shortcuts to meet unrealistic deadlines? What about when commercial companies can't afford to hire and/or can't find decent developers? Are you talking about the big commercial companies? Are we to compare the sources of a big company like Apple to a smaller open source community? Okay, but even then you'd be surprised how often these smaller open source developers can provide healthy competition. What about commercial companies that have opened up a part of their product, or have made a lite version of their product available for free with many of the same features minus support? What about Redhat Linux? You seem to think that Linux across the board is lacking, but Redhat is a commercial company with some dough...

This is too fuzzy to draw any real, concrete conclusions like you are trying to do here.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by - - e r i k - - 

Again, you are talking from the point of a server admin view. Most of the world aren't the IT world's equivalent of car mechanics.

Stop. Being. Confusing. Say what you mean. I thank you in advance!

[Mastrap]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

It just works as long as you stay in the confines of the comfortable little bubble that Apple has designed for you. What happens when the day comes that you have to leave that bubble? Do you just wait patiently for somebody to write some sort of tool that "just works" precisely as you want it to (and probably with a GUI, since that is the Mac way)? I guess in my line of work, I simply don't have that luxury...

Bubble? Now you're getting ridiculous. If Linux would deliver the tools I need I'd use Linux. But. It. Doesn't.

If you need to use Linux to do whatever it is you do, well done. If you find the price Linux demands worth paying, well done. But please try to understand: We are not all like you.

[Mastrap]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Stop. Being. Confusing. Say what you mean. I thank you in advance!

I understood exactly what he said. Looks to me that you're just obstinate now.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Mastrap 

Bubble? Now you're getting ridiculous. If Linux would deliver the tools I need I'd use Linux. But. It. Doesn't.

If you need to use Linux to do whatever it is you do, well done. If you find the price Linux demands worth paying, well done. But please try to understand: We are not all like you.

What is ridiculous about my characterization of the Apple bubble? That is exactly how they design their products? I don't mean "bubble" in the sense of a la la land, but a shield from the vulgarities of that which lies beneath a very attractive GUI.

My problem with your statement is that saying that "Linux is only worth it if your time has no value" (i.e. making a generalization that you are attempting to apply to everybody). You should have said that "for me, Linux is not worth my time".

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Mastrap 

I understood exactly what he said. Looks to me that you're just obstinate now.

No, I'm not. He repeatedly fails to make the distinction between the contributions of FOSS in the context of the great many successes it has had in protocol design, standards design, and server software vs. Linux on the Desktop. FOSS does not equal Linux on the Desktop, and because I look at everything he says from the lens of somebody deeply entrenched with Unix servers, it is extremely unclear to me.

[- - e r i k - -]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

FOSS does not equal Linux on the Desktop, and because I look at everything he says from the lens of somebody deeply entrenched with Unix servers, it is extremely unclear to me.

Hey. Looks like you got my point after all. Thank you.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by - - e r i k - - 

Hey. Looks like you got my point after all. Thank you.

Is there something wrong with my being a sys admin and web developer now? Am I a computer elitist? I hope I am! Do I get to wear a special hat?

[- - e r i k - -]

There is nothing wrong with that, but it certainly seems to preclude you from looking at the big picture here.

[besson3c]

Because I have managed to shoot holes in your argument that you not been able to refute (or, at least, you have not attempted to) means that either you have not been able to make the point you want to make clear, or else it is simply full of holes, and you don't wish to acknowledge this. Either way, it ain't my problem, sorry...

If I really wanted to score points in this debate, I could be grilling you and your credibility with these issues on how many of those successful projects I listed in one of the previous pages are available for Windows, what each of them do, and what their relevance to the computing world is, but I've left you to simply share with us your (so far) flawed visions of the failures of open source that conveniently don't regard the successes.

If you want some sort of acknowledgment that there have been far fewer successes with desktop open source stuff, I gave you that pages ago. At the time, you also seemed to agree that there have been several notable successes with open source in other areas though. So, I really don't know what keeps this argument going aside from the very impressive persistence you have in trying to keep this going, and the persistence I have with not letting you get away with saying things that are inaccurate.

[- - e r i k - -]

I really don't see any holes nor inaccuracies. I say MOST projects fail, you point to a handful that works (no matter the value outside your niche). I say that's due to careful managing, you dodge the issue.

What I DO see is a whole lot of dodging of the big issues here:

- FOSS being fundamentally flawed when it comes to execution, unless reined in and properly managed.
- Linux/FOSS community attitude
- LOTD perpetually coming soon with no real progress

You view this from your niche of server admin/web developer - coincidentally one of the few areas where Linux and to a certain extent FOSS Actually Works™. That is fine, and certainly explains your rose-tinted view of the world, but you are still not getting the larger picture here. Users CH and ctw11..somethingsomething are more typical examples of what is wrong with the Linux/FOSS world at large.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by - - e r i k - - 

I really don't see any holes nor inaccuracies. I say MOST projects fail, you point to a handful that works (no matter the value outside your niche). I say that's due to careful managing, you dodge the issue.

Was that list I came up with a few pages ago a "handful"? From a ratio of success to failures, maybe, but does that really matter over the final quantity? The important point here is that FOSS as provided a lot of successful software, and arguably the most amount of innovation in the industry from a single source as a whole. How is the category of people into research/scientific computing, server admin, and software development (commercial and open), etc. a niche and not a significant sector of the computing industry? Insignificant if you base significance on size, but not on importance... Where would you be without people to provide you with email, websites, software for you to use, etc.? Put it this way, without Linux and FOSS ever existing, it would be a much different world.

What I DO see is a whole lot of dodging of the big issues here:

- FOSS being fundamentally flawed when it comes to execution, unless reined in and properly managed.

How am I dodging this issue? I brought up a list of issues that face commercial development too, which YOU have dodged. If you take out the "fundamentally flawed" part, this would be accurate, but it would also apply to any software development of any sort too.

- Linux/FOSS community attitude

That is an issue you will have to work out with Crash. I really don't care about the community attitude. It makes no difference to me if you think that Crash, ctt, or myself have bad attitudes. Maybe you should tell their mothers about their bad attitudes?

- LOTD perpetually coming soon with no real progress

We've gone over that numerous times, haven't we?

You view this from your niche of server admin/web developer - coincidentally one of the few areas where Linux and to a certain extent FOSS Actually Works™. That is fine, and certainly explains your rose-tinted view of the world, but you are still not getting the larger picture here. Users CH and ctw11..somethingsomething are more typical examples of what is wrong with the Linux/FOSS world at large.

The larger picture? Linux is primarily a server OS... How many times have I said that? It works great as a server OS, and its ability to run as a server OS *is* the larger picture. End of story. As far as the FOSS world, you really haven't sold me on your fundamentally flawed arguments. You might start by backing up and taking a look at some of the issues I brought up with commercial development as well.

The bottom line is that there are potential issues with any kind of software development, and that there is nothing fundamentally flawed with OSS. If there was, how would you account for the many successes it has had in the areas I've painstakingly described? Again, for the umpteenth time, if you want to rail about the lack of success of Linux on the Desktop, have at it. My only issue is in not making the distinction between LotD and other areas of FOSS, because they aren't one of the same, nor are they a real focal point of the FOSS world.

Would it be fair of me to say that Apple is an utter failure at enterprise computing, and they are a fundamentally flawed company, despite the fact that this isn't really a focus of theirs in the first place (although they do sort of dabble in these areas)?

[- - e r i k - -]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

.. and arguably the most amount of innovation in the industry from a single source as a whole.

This sentence does not make sense when applied to FOSS, being multisourced by design.

Arguably does not mean that you are right either.

[besson3c]

I'll rephrase then: most of the innovation in the software industry as a whole can be attributed to the open source community.

[- - e r i k - -]

If you want to move your target back to your narrow worldview as Linux being a great server OS that's fine. We have no discussion then as I've said a myriad of times.

[- - e r i k - -]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

I'll rephrase then: most of the innovation in the software industry as a whole can be attributed to the open source community.

Seriously, I just don't see it. Where is this innovation? Where is the Linux killer app?

All I see is derivation, complexity and lack of focus.

[besson3c]

How is it a narrow worldview? You can take a narrow, wide, medium view, or any kind of view you want, the facts remain: it is a great server OS. There is no need to back down from this with a stupid parting shot.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by - - e r i k - - 

Seriously, I just don't see it. Where is this innovation? Where is the Linux killer app?

All I see is derivation, complexity and lack of focus.

Who says innovation can only come in the form of Desktop apps?

Funny that you call *my* view narrow, when the extent of your grandiose arguments you have been presenting in a sweeping, all-encompassing manner with no qualifications center around desktop usage.

[Gator Lager]

I was watching "Mad Money" (Jim Cramer) and he interviewed the CEO ?? of Red Hat (linux). And he stated the the NYSE (stock exchange) runs linux instead of Windows. And they stated because Windows crashes to often. Can't let that happen.

[- - e r i k - -]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Who says innovation can only come in the form of Desktop apps?

Funny that you call *my* view narrow, when the extent of your grandiose arguments you have been presenting in a sweeping, all-encompassing manner with no qualifications center around desktop usage.

Now you are reaching.

Suuuuuure, desktop use is the narrow view. In bizarro world.

[- - e r i k - -]

Originally Posted by Gator Lager 

I was watching "Mad Money" (Jim Cramer) and he interviewed the CEO ?? of Red Hat (linux). And he stated the the NYSE (stock exchange) runs linux instead of Windows. And they stated because Windows crashes to often. Can't let that happen.

Of course what's good for the NYSE is good for the desktop.

Did you hear Linux runs on toasters now?

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Gator Lager 

I was watching "Mad Money" (Jim Cramer) and he interviewed the CEO ?? of Red Hat (linux). And he stated the the NYSE (stock exchange) runs linux instead of Windows. And they stated because Windows crashes to often. Can't let that happen.

Yeah, I can't remember his name either, but I've heard him speak... Red Hat is an interesting company. They are apparently one of the fastest growing Fortune 500 companies, many of their employees are not Americans, and they have many big clients. Before Red Hat really made it big a lot of companies were still using Solaris, AIX, HP/UX, and other forms of older, proprietary forms of Unix on big mainframes. Now the trend is with clusters of Linux machines with commodity x86 hardware. Red Hat has focused on these sort of markets with things such as the virtualization stuff they have developed in house, but despite the fact that man hours have been invested in software development their software (with a few exceptions) is available as open source via CentOS and Fedora. According to the CEO, they don't make their money in selling copies of Red Hat Enterprise Linux (RHEL) and their satellite service, but in service and support. They are primarily a service based company with an appearance of being a software based company.

At any rate, they have a rather interesting business model making money "selling" a free product...

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by - - e r i k - - 

Now you are reaching.

Suuuuuure, desktop use is the narrow view. In bizarro world.

And what makes running Desktop apps even possible? Compilers, programming languages, toolkits/IDEs/frameworks, tracers/debuggers, distribution channels, websites, ticket tracking systems, command line development tools, code repositories, source code management tools, collaboration tools, etc. 'Nuff said?

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by - - e r i k - - 

Of course what's good for the NYSE is good for the desktop.

Did you hear Linux runs on toasters now?

I did hear just today that the Motorola RAZR2 phone is supposed to be Linux based. I hope you don't own one!

[- - e r i k - -]

Nah. My phone runs OS X

[- - e r i k - -]

I also probably wouldn't want to look up reviews of that RAZR2 phone OS if I were you