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mikerally · Apr 15, 2005, 04:54 PM

For those who want to be in the know:

Originally, over the past year, all Macs shipped with a set of two standard single layer (4.7GB) DVDs, for installing Mac OS X and the bundled applications (iLife and etc).

All of Mac OS X was on the first installer disc, and iLife on the second disc. Plus there was also an Apple Hardware Test CD, which had also had an installer package on it to install Microsoft Office Test Drive and a Mac OS 9 System Folder for use with the Classic Environment.

Things have now been changed around: -

Apple has switched to a single double layer (8.5GB) DVD.

This new DVD now contains the Apple Hardware Test software, Mac OS X Installer, all the bundled applications (including iLife 05), pretty much everything (except an installer for a Mac OS 9 System Folder).

The DVD is dual booting, by default (by holding the "C" key) it boots into the Mac OS X installer, hold down the "Option" (aka "Alt") key at boot time with the DVD inserted to choose whether you wish to boot into the Mac OS X Installer, or the Apple Hardware Test environment.

Like the DVDs before it, the installer is rigged to only install on the machine it is bundled with (but can be hacked to work perfectly fine on all systems).

A new CD labelled "Mac OS 9" accompanies the new systems, it contains an installer package that will install a Mac OS 9 System Folder on your hd (for use with Classic, not to boot from).

I like the fact that Apple has reduced the bundled discs down to just 2 now. And will be just 1 disc when Apple is ready to drop the bundled Mac OS 9 CD.

leperkuhn · Apr 15, 2005, 06:22 PM

Originally Posted by mikerally

I like the fact that Apple has reduced the bundled discs down to just 2 now. And will be just 1 disc when Apple is ready to drop the bundled Mac OS 9 CD.

which will be... NEVER!!! long live OS 9!!!

uh.. just kidding. but I don't think they'll stop bundling it for a while, as the cost to include it is pretty much zero. and since i rage my old version of mavis bacon teaches typing every few months.

jabackes · Apr 15, 2005, 08:22 PM

as cool as this sounds, have you actually seen this? you do know that only .001% of the world has a DVD drive that can run that style of disk right? yeah, cool it will be in the new machines, but its still a ways off...

leperkuhn · Apr 15, 2005, 08:24 PM

i'm pretty sure every dvd drive can read dual layer.

zerostar · Apr 15, 2005, 08:27 PM

Yeah, the orig. DVD specification supports dual layer, most commercial movie DVDs are dual layer (thats how they fit up to 8.x GB on some discs). All dvd drives will read dual layer but only specific DL burners will burn them.

TailsToo · Apr 15, 2005, 09:47 PM

I installed the new SW from my 1.67 PB onto my TI with no problems - maybe they don't disable the use on other systems all the time...

wunderkind · Apr 16, 2005, 02:08 AM

Some of these new disks are very hardware-specific. I was unable to install bundled software that came with new rev. D PB 12" 1.5GHz on rev. B PB 12" 1GHz with a message saying that "you cannot install bundled software on this unsupported hardware".

bmedina · Apr 16, 2005, 03:25 AM

Originally Posted by mikerally

For those who want to be in the know:
I like the fact that Apple has reduced the bundled discs down to just 2 now. And will be just 1 disc when Apple is ready to drop the bundled Mac OS 9 CD.

I don't think they made this change in preparation of dropping OS 9. They could have just put the classic installer on the main DVD, but they chose to include a second disc just for classic.

My feeling is that they included a completely separate OS 9 disc because so many customer were confused about how to install Classic before. Now that there's an entirely separate disc labeled as OS 9, less-advanced users (i.e. those who are just now upgrading from their old 8.6 iMacs) won't go through the confusion of missing OS 9.

mikerally · Apr 16, 2005, 05:07 AM

jabackes wrote:
as cool as this sounds, have you actually seen this? you do know that only .001% of the world has a DVD drive that can run that style of disk right? yeah, cool it will be in the new machines, but its still a ways off...

This is a joke right? Every Mac now ships with a DVD drive as standard, these discs are meant to only be used the machines they are bundled with. What the rest of the world is using is totally irrelevant.

And yes it will work on ALL DVD ROM drives, double layer is part of the original DVD specification, most Hollywood films that come on DVD are usually Double Layer. I have one sitting in my room here which is a double layer Hollywood DVD that dates all the way back to 1997 (you can tell by the disc size - it's more than 4.4GB in size). It worked on all the DVD players/drives out back then, so it will work on all the drives out now.

The significance of the double layer disc, means fewer people can copy it, not as many people have double layer writers, and the discs are more expensive. You will need to make a copy of the disc if you are going to hack the installer to work on any machine (with a DVD-ROM drive).

And finally, of course I've seen these discs for myself (I would have mentioned otherwise). They are a reality - and they have been shipping with the new Mac minis and Powerbook G4s over the last month (I work in an office where we have bought several).

bmedina wrote:
My feeling is that they included a completely separate OS 9 disc because so many customer were confused about how to install Classic before. Now that there's an entirely separate disc labeled as OS 9, less-advanced users (i.e. those who are just now upgrading from their old 8.6 iMacs) won't go through the confusion of missing OS 9.

I think you are right on the money with that assumption aswell. The Mac OS 9 for Classic installer package was hidden away on the Apple Hardware Test CD, under "Additional Applications". If you didn't know much about Macs, you'd have a very low chance of finding it. The new Mac OS 9 disc keeps things simple.

That doesn't go without saying however, that Apple can't have more than one motive for doing this, it is easier now for Apple to exclude Mac OS 9 when the time comes (simply stop bundling the disc). And knowing Steve Jobs, he might want to make the descision and have it be effective immediately (like the iLife 05 DVD been thrown in Mac mini boxes at the last minute).

IMHO the next logical step is to continue putting users off of the pursuit of Mac OS 9 (not to entirely withdraw it). Maybe in a year's time (after 5 years of Mac OS X shipping), Apple will drop the Mac OS 9 for Classic install CD from being bundled with new Macs, but still offer it to users who buy new systems by having them post off one of the coupons that came with their Mac and sending them the CD for a $10 shipping and handling fee.

In all honesty, Swiitchers (from Windows) have no need for Mac OS 9, and upgraders from Macs bought in 2000 or later will already have a copy of Mac OS 9.

But you are right for the moment, there are a lot of 1998-2000 iMac owners that still run Mac OS 8 and are now upgrading to the Mac mini with Mac OS X (I see it happening a lot). These users do need to be catered with a copy of Mac OS 9.

cal6n · Apr 16, 2005, 07:41 AM

As an aside, I note that the 10.3.9 update has recognised my dual-layer Pioneer DVR-108 as "Vendor Supported".

*Edit* I've just realised this may have been the result of .7 or .8 but it's still a relevent observation!

Krypton · Apr 16, 2005, 08:38 AM

Originally Posted by wunderkind

Some of these new disks are very hardware-specific. I was unable to install bundled software that came with new rev. D PB 12" 1.5GHz on rev. B PB 12" 1GHz with a message saying that "you cannot install bundled software on this unsupported hardware".

Did you use Pacifist? Pacifist can install specific items from software packages with ease - I used it to extract iLife 05 from a PowerBook DVD onto my B&W G4

TailsToo · Apr 16, 2005, 10:49 AM

Originally Posted by wunderkind

Some of these new disks are very hardware-specific. I was unable to install bundled software that came with new rev. D PB 12" 1.5GHz on rev. B PB 12" 1GHz with a message saying that "you cannot install bundled software on this unsupported hardware".

I booted up my 1.67, and ran the TI in firewire disk mode. I installed the restore onto the TI's HD, and when I rebooted the TI, it worked fine! I guess that's the workaround.

wunderkind · Apr 16, 2005, 11:31 AM

Originally Posted by TailsToo

I booted up my 1.67, and ran the TI in firewire disk mode. I installed the restore onto the TI's HD, and when I rebooted the TI, it worked fine! I guess that's the workaround.

That's a good idea. Pacifist is definitely another option, if not involving few more steps.

kaufman · Apr 16, 2005, 12:22 PM

Originally Posted by mikerally

In all honesty, Swiitchers (from Windows) have no need for Mac OS 9, and upgraders from Macs bought in 2000 or later will already have a copy of Mac OS 9.

Not true. I am a recent switcher. I use Outlook 2001 to connect to my corporate Exchange server and my Favorite game is Caesar III. Both Classic Apps.

Michael

mikerally · Apr 16, 2005, 02:19 PM

kaufman wrote:
Not true. I am a recent switcher. I use Outlook 2001 to connect to my corporate Exchange server and my Favorite game is Caesar III. Both Classic Apps.

Point taken.

I have to say though, I'm one of those people who thinks Classic needs to be spun off from the main OS and into a standalone application (which it technically already is) which is distributed seperately and ships with a Mac OS 9 System Folder with it - either as a CD to buy or as some sort of download from the Internet.

Whist others on here bemoan how bad it is to encourage running "Repair Permissions" because it will scare new users of Mac OS X into thinking it's too complicated and needs maintenance (this is not my opinion, btw) - I do think running Classic can have similar effect.

The idea of having two system folders and two versions of Mac OS is as confusing as it gets to new users. I do however believe in making Classic available to whoever wants it - but I'm sure these days whoever is clever enough to know that they want to run Classic will have no trouble finding a copy of Mac OS 9.

I think Apple should just go ahead and make Mac OS 9 available to download off the net (like with System 7.5.5).

Finally back on topic:

Check this thread out on how to modify the DVD to install on any machine.

kaufman · Apr 16, 2005, 02:41 PM

Originally Posted by mikerally

Point taken.
Whist others on here bemoan how bad it is to encourage running "Repair Permissions" because it will scare new users of Mac OS X into thinking it's too complicated and needs maintenance (this is not my opinion, btw) - I do think running Classic can have similar effect.

I have to disagree. I installed Outlook and Caesar III without knowing in advance that they were Classic apps. They both installed without a hitch, and they both ran fine.

Imagine if instead of installing without incident I had gotten a messege saying that I needed to order a CD or download some huge install image. That certainly would scare away a few new users.

Michael

mikerally · Apr 16, 2005, 03:00 PM

Originally posted by kaufman:
Imagine if instead of installing without incident I had gotten a messege saying that I needed to order a CD or download some huge install image. That certainly would scare away a few new users.

More likely it will discourage new users from running Classic applications alltogether (which running Classic itself does already for a lot of people)- which from my point of view might be a good thing.

Particularly if the user doesn't realise that the app isn't compatible with Classic (e.g. it only works when you boot from Mac OS 9) and wastes time trying to get it to work.

Like I said, I'm not against Classic but I think the more that can be done to discourage users from it the better - slowly and over time.

I'm all for keeping the Mac OS 9 CD bundled with new systems for now - but you have to let go someday, and keep your Beige G3 knocking about to run all that old stuff (don't have one? get one off eBay for thirty bucks). Remember things move on (DVD replacing VHS and all that).

azt33 · Apr 16, 2005, 05:45 PM

Originally Posted by mikerally

This new DVD now contains the Apple Hardware Test software, Mac OS X Installer, all the bundled applications (including iLife 05), pretty much everything (except an installer for a Mac OS 9 System Folder).

So let met get this straight, if I buy Tiger (which I'm going to do anyway), I don't need to buy iLife '05 seperately, as it will come bundled with Tiger? Will this be all the applications, including iDVD and Garageband?

Big Mac · 06:19 PM

Originally Posted by azt33

So let met get this straight, if I buy Tiger (which I'm going to do anyway), I don't need to buy iLife '05 seperately, as it will come bundled with Tiger? Will this be all the applications, including iDVD and Garageband?

No, this thread is referring to the software discs that are included with the newest Macs. This is not about Tiger.

The debate about the long term status of Classic will continue until Apple provides more definitive clues about where it is going. I also have to agree that this change has likely been done in order to make Classic installation more obvious. Prior to this point it was located on the Hardware Test and Other Software CD, and without any explicit reference to it on the disc, it is understandable that many would be confused. I imagine Apple has gotten a considerable number of calls over this issue. I think there remains a reasonable level of demand to justify the inclusion of Classic for the foreseeable future. If Apple were to eliminate Classic, the company would be tossing compatibility with years worth of software, some of which many still rely upon. Just think about education, for instance, which Apple is desperately trying to maintain a grip on - teachers run a lot of older, funky software, and they should be given the opportunity to continue running it on newer Macs. We can be sure that if, at some point, the cost:benefit ratio no longer supports the inclusion of Classic, Apple will then ditch it.

OptimusG4 · Apr 16, 2005, 08:12 PM

Originally Posted by azt33

So let met get this straight, if I buy Tiger (which I'm going to do anyway), I don't need to buy iLife '05 seperately, as it will come bundled with Tiger? Will this be all the applications, including iDVD and Garageband?

No. Tiger retail will not include 3rd party applications or iLife software. That's why they are offering a bundle on iWork, iLife and Tiger at the online Apple Store.

kaufman · Apr 16, 2005, 09:30 PM

Originally Posted by mikerally

More likely it will discourage new users from running Classic applications alltogether (which running Classic itself does already for a lot of people)- which from my point of view might be a good thing.

Except that I was able to be a switcher partly because I can still get my work email. And one of my co-workers is a switcher for the same thing.

It's only easy to take the hard line approach if you don't need to run any classic apps.

Michael

azt33 · Apr 17, 2005, 06:02 AM

My apologies, I just got excited and didn't read it thoroughly

Drakino · Apr 17, 2005, 04:03 PM

My Powerbook, (Rev A 15 inch Aluminum) came with only one restore DVD, single layer. It has OS X, hardware test, Jaguar, Classic, iDVD and some other minor apps. This was before iLife, and back when OS X included iPhoto, iTunes and iMovie.

Glad to see things going towards a single disc again.

olePigeon · Apr 17, 2005, 04:47 PM

My Rev D PowerBook came with a dual layer DVD for the system, and a single layer DVD for Classic. The System DVD has Panther Install, System Restore, iLife, and bundled apps. I was actually surprised because my previous PowerBook didn't have any bundled apps. This one came with the latest version of OmniGraffle and OmniOutliner, very cool.

I was a little shocked cuz I went to make a duplicate of my system disks (I've done this since System 6 days) and it was 7.8GBs big. Wouldn't fit on a standard DVD-R. I had to wait until my work got a DL DVD+R drive before I was able to burn it (with, surprisingly, Toast 5.2.3.)