[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by lpkmckenna 

No, it seems to have begun with Simon Peter.

If you ask the Romans.

You can't deny that Paul was the most prolific writer, and it's obvious that his Hellenistic views had a huge impact. He essentially transformed a minor Jewish sect into something that Rome, and the rest of the Western world, could find more familiar and palatable. One could almost argue that Paul crafted Christianity from his own dreams and desires, and drug most of the other apostles along with him.

[lpkmckenna]

Originally Posted by Shaddim 

If you ask the Romans.

You can looking it up in the book of Acts: Peter was the first to evangelize to Gentiles. And Paul coroborates this when he notes that Peter "lives like a Gentile" and celebrates the Eucharist with them.

[shifuimam]

Originally Posted by lpkmckenna 

They why does Jesus go on and on about the sheep and the goats?
Sounds like good works are pretty important.

One's behavior is testimony to one's salvation - behavior is not the salvation itself.

No human is capable of being perfect. There isn't a magic quantity of good works that will get you into a heaven. That's the whole point behind salvation through faith and grace - that you can't be "good enough" through your own devices.

It's not that your actions are meaningless, it's that they aren't the key to heaven, which is a pretty significant distinction. Your behavior is what can make someone take notice of you and want to know more about what you believe.

Good works impact the here and now - doing the right thing is doing the right thing, and while it may not always be the easiest choice, it's usually the best one in the long run. Salvation, however, impacts the eternal, and no amount of good works is going to redeem you in the eyes of God.

Did you not learn the Beatitudes?

The Beatitudes are an encouragement to people - not a mandate for the only lifestyle that will achieve blessings. If you aren't dirt poor, that doesn't mean you can't be saved. Same with the suffering. The point is that life may be hard now, but you'll reap the rewards for your perseverance in the afterlife. It doesn't indicate that as a Christian your life is guaranteed to be more difficult than that of nonbelievers.

There's a movement within the Christian population that an easy life is a nonbelieving one, and Christians must suffer miserably throughout their lives. I call BS on that. Persevering through misery is not the only way for your life to be a testimony to salvation.

Wow, what crap that is. The early church gathered every Sunday to celebrate the Resurrection, and they celebrated the same way everyone celebrates: with a meal. "Hanging out with other Christians" isn't celebrating the Resurrection.

So if I hang out with other Christians and have a meal at the same time, it's considered church?

You can worship and celebrate the gift of salvation anywhere. It doesn't have to be in a building with a cross on it, and it doesn't have to be on Sunday mornings.

Originally Posted by lpkmckenna 

I'm sure your debating and researching is fascinating, but it isn't worship. Given the the Bible is filled with songs and prayers and religious rituals, I think maybe they're kind of important to God (or the people to wrote the bible).

Those rituals are not required for salvation. Not only that, but the songs and prayers and worship can be accomplished anywhere with any quantity of people - it's not limited to Sunday morning service. A person can worship on their own; they don't have to be seen by others in public in order for it to be valid in God's eyes.

[Oisín]

Originally Posted by ebuddy 

I can't do it any more Oisín. It was entirely tongue-in-cheek, from the very beginning to the very end with the big grin. I tried as hard as I could to make 6.3% sound monumental and leapt as far as humanly possible in reasoning. In the spirit of honesty however, I thought it was funny because it was both absurd and a pinch true. Just a pinch.


You're correct. I thought for sure when I said; "I could've said more resolved or confident, but those are positive words when the data was clearly negative." you would've given up on me.

I apologize for having offended you Oisín. They were intended to be funny. I suck at humor.

I think a little introspect and curiosity as to what compels one to respond to such a test is perfectly acceptable. Maybe someone can determine with some degree of accuracy, how many respondents were "right down the middle". (to be clear, I'm not sure this is possible)

It was slanted to the absurd. I apologize for offending you. I was trying to be funny, but I'm no good at humor.

All right. I’ll go wear the gullible dunce hat now. You’re too good for me.

I kept thinking, “This can’t be real … but he sounds so genuinely serious”.

I think I’ll just shut up now.

[shifuimam]

Originally Posted by lpkmckenna 

The more "orthodox" apostles like James and Matthew were big on works, while the more "mystical" apostles like Paul and John were big on abstractions like grace and faith. The New Testament does not speak with a consistent viewpoint, and the tensions between Paul and Peter, and between Paul and James, are openly discussed.

This isn't entirely accurate. James was big on faith without works is dead.

Let's say you have a significant other. You tell this person that you love him or her deeply, and that you are wholly committed to them.

Then, the next day, you go to a strip club, get a lap dance, and go home with a hooker who's hanging out on the street corner outside the club. Your significant other comes home to find you having sex with this other person, and cries, "I thought you loved me!"

Obviously, you didn't - if you did, you would have respected your partner and not gone canoodling behind his or her back with other bed partners.

Faith without works is much the same. If you say you believe in God and the gift of salvation through Christ, but nothing changes in your behavior (which is essentially an externalization of what's in your heart), why should anyone believe for a moment that you're really a Christian and that your heart has really changed?

Your actions are a testimony of your faith. Nowhere in the book of James does he indicate that your actions are your salvation.

He uses the story of Abraham and Isaac in Genesis 22 as an example - Abraham was asked by God to bring his son, Isaac, as a burnt offering and sacrifice. Abraham was prepared to follow wholly through with this task, because he put his faith completely in God. His faith was proven through his actions - his faith existed in full before this incident, but God used it as a testimony to the faith that was already there.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by shifuimam 

Your actions are a testimony of your faith. Nowhere in the book of James does he indicate that your actions are your salvation.

In the chapter where the phrase "faith without works is dead" occurs, James compares faith to a starving man dreaming about food and works to the man actually going and eating some. This seems to reverse the importance you place on faith and works.

[shifuimam]

Jesus also compared the faith necessary to move a mountain to the size of a mustard seed. Examples in the Bible are there to illustrate concepts and make them easier to understand by the masses.

Seems from my reading this morning of James chapter 2, the underlying theme is "faith without works is dead" - e.g. faith without works is unlikely faith at all, since the internal change that comes with redemption through Christ causes a positive change in outward, external behavior.

It's clear in the New Testament that good works cannot redeem a person's inherent sinful nature. No amount of good works will get you there. Humans are inherently fallible, and cannot overcome that nature on their own. There is no certain list of rules you can follow to earn your salvation - think about it, every time you break a rule, you lose your salvation, so your salvation could never actually be guaranteed.

Instead, salvation through Christ provides forgiveness for all your transgressions (including the ones you forget to confess), because you will sin throughout your life - it's unavoidable.

Salvation requires you to recognize that you aren't good enough to get their own your own, which is one of the biggest reasons, in my opinion, why people have such a problem with Christianity.

Romans chapter 4 talks about how Abraham's righteousness was gained through faith - not through works, not through the sacrifice of Isaac, and not through ritual (circumcision is specified in the passage). It wasn't through laws, tenets, or rituals - it was through faith.

The first part of Ephesians chapter 2 is much the same...

"...because of His great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions - it is by grace you have been saved."

And, a much more well-known verse in Eph. 2:8-9...

"For it is by grace you have been saved - and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God - not by works, so that no one can boast."

If humans can achieve salvation through works, there was absolutely no purpose to Christ's existence on this planet, and certainly no reason for his crucifixion. The whole point is that we can't do it alone - we need the redeeming sacrifice of Christ's death on the cross.

[Doofy]

Nail on head again Shif.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by shifuimam 

Jesus also compared the faith necessary to move a mountain to the size of a mustard seed. Examples in the Bible are there to illustrate concepts and make them easier to understand by the masses.

And the concept that James was illustrating is that faith is no more fruitful than daydreaming.

Originally Posted by shifuimam 

Seems from my reading this morning of James chapter 2, the underlying theme is "faith without works is dead" - e.g. faith without works is unlikely faith at all, since the internal change that comes with redemption through Christ causes a positive change in outward, external behavior.

"Faith without works is unlikely faith at all" does not seem like a fair rephrasing of "faith without works is dead." A human without a head is dead, but still real. He's just inert and powerless — just like James says faith is without works.

Originally Posted by shifuimam 

It's clear in the New Testament that good works cannot redeem a person's inherent sinful nature. No amount of good works will get you there. Humans are inherently fallible, and cannot overcome that nature on their own. There is no certain list of rules you can follow to earn your salvation - think about it, every time you break a rule, you lose your salvation, so your salvation could never actually be guaranteed.

At the same time, the idea that I can happily go on sinning with impunity if I really believe with all my heart that Jesus will forgive me for my sins is downright bizarre. If that's the case, Jesus actually encouraged evil since it's no longer dangerous. Here's a more rational interpretation of the Christian doctrine of salvation:

Originally, the law was that we had to follow all the rules perfectly or we would be damned. It's not clear why this was the case, but it's clear God agreed it was an unacceptable system, so Jesus came to redeem us. Now there is a much more reasonable system where we can gain forgiveness of our sins through Christ as long as we are sincerely trying to be good people ("Go on your way and sin no more," as Jesus said). It isn't the good works that redeem us just like it wasn't the adulteress' righteousness that saved her, but they are a necessary component of Jesus' plan.

Some parts of the Bible, such as James and Jesus' own teachings, seem to support this well. Paul does not so much, and since a lot of Christianity is really more Paulinism, those parts tend to get priority in most people's minds. But I think Paul should probably be made to conform with the logic of the rest of the teachers, not vice-versa. Peter even said at the time that he thought people tended to derive incorrect teachings from Paul's letters (2 Peter 3:15-16).

Originally Posted by shifuimam 

Romans chapter 4 talks about how Abraham's righteousness was gained through faith - not through works, not through the sacrifice of Isaac, and not through ritual (circumcision is specified in the passage). It wasn't through laws, tenets, or rituals - it was through faith.

The first part of Ephesians chapter 2 is much the same...

"...because of His great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions - it is by grace you have been saved."

And, a much more well-known verse in Eph. 2:8-9...

"For it is by grace you have been saved - and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God - not by works, so that no one can boast."

I would be really interested in seeing you try to make the Pauline argument without resorting to Paul himself.

[shifuimam]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

"Faith without works is unlikely faith at all" does not seem like a fair rephrasing of "faith without works is dead." A human without a head is dead, but still real. He's just inert and powerless — just like James says faith is without works.

I don't see James' writing as indicating that works are required to secure salvation and eternal life after human death. The text seems to show that the only way that people will know you have faith is through your works, and in that regard you should be careful how you act, because it affects how you portray yourself to others (which is your witness and testimony to God's grace in your salvation).

Christians are called to be examples of upright, moral lifestyle - not to guarantee salvation, but to draw others to God.

At the same time, the idea that I can happily go on sinning with impunity if I really believe with all my heart that Jesus will forgive me for my sins is downright bizarre. If that's the case, Jesus actually encouraged evil since it's no longer dangerous.

Of course not. The entire book of Jude is a warning against false teachers who spread the myth that salvation gives a believer free license to do whatever the hell they want, consequences be damned:

Jude 1:4 - "They are godless men, who change the grace of God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord."

As someone who generally identifies with Calvinist doctrine, which includes predestination and election, here's how I see it:

God elects those who will be saved, and draws them to Him. They accept His free gift of salvation, which subsequently opens up their hearts and allows God to change them inside and become examples for others to see. You don't lose your salvation if you sin; you will sin throughout your life. There is a critical difference between good works to ensure or affirm your salvation in the eyes of God, and good works to be a testimony to God's grace and cause people to want to learn more about what He has to offer them.

Here's a more rational interpretation of the Christian doctrine of salvation:

Originally, the law was that we had to follow all the rules perfectly or we would be damned. It's not clear why this was the case, but it's clear God agreed it was an unacceptable system, so Jesus came to redeem us. Now there is a much more reasonable system where we can gain forgiveness of our sins through Christ as long as we are sincerely trying to be good people ("Go on your way and sin no more," as Jesus said). It isn't the good works that redeem us just like it wasn't the adulteress' righteousness that saved her, but they are a necessary component of Jesus' plan.

There are two different parts to that, though - your own salvation and the witness to others. Through the Great Commission, Christ instructed His followers to go throughout the world, spreading the news of the gift of salvation and God's grace on humanity. This is why Christians aim to hold themselves to high moral standards. If you claim to be a Christian but don't behave like one, why should anyone believe you? And while it's not someone else's place to decide for you whether or not you're truly saved, shouldn't you make every effort to show through your visible actions that you are?

Salvation is a free gift from God. No amount of good works can earn it or ensure its longevity - the change in attitude simply comes naturally as part of the process of conversion, not because followers are attempting to validate their salvation in God's eyes - were that the case, everyone would be boned except for the best of the best, like Billy Graham and the like - and even then, how could they be certain their behavior was good enough to confirm their salvation, since even the smallest sin committed damns you to hell for eternity?

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by shifuimam 

Through the Great Commission, Christ instructed His followers to go throughout the world, spreading the news of the gift of salvation and God's grace on humanity. This is why Christians aim to hold themselves to high moral standards. If you claim to be a Christian but don't behave like one, why should anyone believe you? And while it's not someone else's place to decide for you whether or not you're truly saved, shouldn't you make every effort to show through your visible actions that you are?

On the other hand, there's too pious, which is also a PR disaster.

There's a bloke here name of Stephen Green. Last time I owned a TV, I saw him on a topical news programme called Question Time. Essentially, a studio audience questions a bunch of politicians and influential folks about the week's events.
Anyways, this guy was so pious (starting every answer with a Bible quote, etc..) that by the end of the show every time he went to open his mouth the whole audience sighed. That ain't the way to get "bums on seats".

There's being moral. And then there's putting people off.

[shifuimam]

There's that, too.

The bottom line is that people will be disinterested in salvation if they only see hypocrites coming out of the Christian church. What God sees and what we see are two very different things - how we appear to others is going to significantly impact the judgment they will inevitably pass on us, which is why it is important that we do what we can to let our lives be a testimony of our faith.

There is, however, no magic list of good works that will secure your place in heaven. That's done through the sanctification of Christ's blood alone.

[greenG4]

Originally Posted by shifuimam 

There's that, too.

The bottom line is that people will be disinterested in salvation if they only see hypocrites coming out of the Christian church. What God sees and what we see are two very different things - how we appear to others is going to significantly impact the judgment they will inevitably pass on us, which is why it is important that we do what we can to let our lives be a testimony of our faith.

There is, however, no magic list of good works that will secure your place in heaven. That's done through the sanctification of Christ's blood alone.

VERY well spoken. Or written. Or whatever.

[Laminar]

Originally Posted by shifuimam 

Christians are called to be examples of upright, moral lifestyle - not to guarantee salvation, but to draw others to God.

Elaborate on "moral":
1. Living according to the laws set forth in the Bible?
2. Living according to the Bible, but where culture dictates stricter standards, living by them instead?
-or-
3. Rationalizing things Scripture clearly condemns by claiming that those rules and standards are outdated or just don't make sense to you?

[ShortcutToMoncton]

4. Living according to the laws set forth in the Bible, except for when it comes to sex, because that feels so good dammit

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

I would be really interested in seeing you try to make the Pauline argument without resorting to Paul himself.

This is as close as it's likely to get.

"He who has faith in the Son has eternal life; but he who has not faith in the Son will not see life; God's wrath is resting on him." - John 3:36

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton 

4. Living according to the laws set forth in the Bible, except for when it comes to sex, because that feels so good dammit

Keep Paul out of your bedroom and you'll be fine.

[Oisín]

Originally Posted by Shaddim 

Keep Paul out of your bedroom and you'll be fine.

Great, there goes my evening.

[Laminar]

Originally Posted by Oisín 

Great, there goes my evening.

[ShortcutToMoncton]