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Halo and Piracy
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Horsepoo!!!
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Jan 20, 2004, 08:41 PM
 
Let's face it...

Halo is old (but also highly anticipated)
Halo is slow on decent hardware.
Halo does not have a demo.

And then MacSoft wonders why people pirate this game?

I don't own Halo...and I haven't downloaded it. But if I did want to play the game I'd be tempted to download it from pirate sites because, a) it's an old game, b) it's probably slow on my Dual 800 G4 with Radeon 8500 and I'd love to know for sure but c) there is no demo.

Other might just be plain ol' stinkin' pirates but I bet most have reasons for pirating it. Some such as: it's a game by Microsoft/(Bungie), it's a game by Bungie (a traitor, to some people).

There's just so much love and hate in the air about Halo.

MacSoft now has the balls to put copy-protections on this game and, above all, blame the Mac gaming community?

Kudos to MacSoft and Westlake for porting this game but, please, don't be shocked that it's being mass-pirated.

Also...CD copy-protection schemes probably will be cracked. They only hurt the legit owners. The Halo pirating will probably be just as high even with the protections.
     
Lateralus
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Jan 20, 2004, 09:17 PM
 
Agreed.

They need to put the effort into making it worth buying before they put effort into making it theft proof.
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jfinete
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Jan 20, 2004, 09:22 PM
 
Bullsh-t. If you want the game, you should pay for it. The mac game market is small enough already. Piracy makes it worse, and discourages future game development.
     
a2daj
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Jan 20, 2004, 10:00 PM
 
No matter what reasons, it's still pirating. And it's still bad. There's no good reason to pirate software no matter who owns whatever rights.

Halo for Mac and PC just came out in the last 6 months. It's hardly old. The game does things with the graphics renderer that no other currently shipping game does and it makes the game look pretty darn good with things maxed out. It doesn't matter how old a game is, if it's fun, it's fun. I think it's very fun. If anyone is getting any enjoyment out of the game they should have paid for it.

One reason there might not be a demo out is because of the 1.0.3 patch. We just got down with Christmas, New Years, and Macworld (a holiday to many). So that's 3 solid weeks where anyone involved may not have had time to get major work done on the patch. If you look at what Westlake did accomplish, they got a lot done, particularly the new NV rendering path. That type of work takes away a bit of time from the demo, but at the same time, can allow Westlake to release a much better demo than they would have a month ago.
     
Horsepoo!!!  (op)
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Jan 21, 2004, 12:13 AM
 
Originally posted by a2daj:
No matter what reasons, it's still pirating. And it's still bad. There's no good reason to pirate software no matter who owns whatever rights.

Halo for Mac and PC just came out in the last 6 months. It's hardly old. The game does things with the graphics renderer that no other currently shipping game does and it makes the game look pretty darn good with things maxed out. It doesn't matter how old a game is, if it's fun, it's fun. I think it's very fun. If anyone is getting any enjoyment out of the game they should have paid for it.

One reason there might not be a demo out is because of the 1.0.3 patch. We just got down with Christmas, New Years, and Macworld (a holiday to many). So that's 3 solid weeks where anyone involved may not have had time to get major work done on the patch. If you look at what Westlake did accomplish, they got a lot done, particularly the new NV rendering path. That type of work takes away a bit of time from the demo, but at the same time, can allow Westlake to release a much better demo than they would have a month ago.
Yes, yes...everything you say is very true. Pirating, no matter how it's done or no matter what the though behind it was, is bad. But it doesn't mean everyone share the same feelings.

MacSoft can't possibly be shocked that the game is being pirated for the reasons I listed above. I'm not here to justify those reasons...I'm just saying those are probably the most popular reasons why people are downloading this game instead of buying it.

It would possibly be less pirated if the game was less old, was faster, had a demo, etc. Certainly not because it has a copy-protection.

As for it being able to do much more than other games in terms of visuals...yes, and so does Tenebrae Quake, but it doesn't mean it looks good or even competes with today's standards of poly counts or level architecture complexities.

Overuse of shaders and bump-mapping doesn't impress me...especially when it bogs down performance.
     
redJag
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Jan 21, 2004, 01:48 AM
 
Copy protection has very little effect on piracy. It merely alienates the legit users. Those on the pirating scene have access to games before they ship, and even those that just download them off Kazaa get them as soon as release day. On top of that, pirates don't need the CD in the drive.. Game developers need to open their eyes. [/end rant/]
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joe
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Jan 21, 2004, 09:35 AM
 
Copy protection isn't the problem. Just about every game I bought is copy protected and that's fine with me. The problem is with the CD-in type of protection they're using. It doesn't even slow down the pirates. All it does is inconvenience the legit owners every time they want to run their software. What's worse about Halo in particular is that it didn't have the CD checks initially, so the buying public assumed they were finally getting a break from this type of bs. And then it's added in later to combat piracy?!?! Yeah, right Anyone here seriously believe CD checks stop piracy?.......joe
     
Horsepoo!!!  (op)
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Jan 21, 2004, 09:50 AM
 
Deep down, I think, companies put that kind of "protection" so people have to carry the CDs around risking them getting lost, scratched or stolen. Then they have to buy another copy. Shame on companies that use CD-copy-protection.
     
a2daj
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Jan 21, 2004, 11:18 AM
 
I just try and look at the cd-in check as a console game. Every console game requires its own disk. I just happen to have the luxury of being able to use a disk image. That doesn't mean I think it works as a copy protection scheme though. The thing is, I don't see any method that doesn't require a significant amount of money on the publisher's side or might cause more issues than they would solve (like using Safedisc... If pirates force more Mac publishers to use Safedisc... grrrr....)
     
Tulkas
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Jan 21, 2004, 11:20 AM
 
I can't understand the CD protection they have now. Their serial number system has put a dent in pirate's fun, so why not just make the serial number system better?

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redJag
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Jan 21, 2004, 01:03 PM
 
Originally posted by joe:
Copy protection isn't the problem. Just about every game I bought is copy protected and that's fine with me. The problem is with the CD-in type of protection they're using.
How is "CD-in" not copy protection? Originally they really did use the CD in the drive to save HD space, but now the only thing it does is check to make sure you're not being bad. I have absolutely no problem with CD Keys and the like, but forcing the user to keep the CD in after wasting gigs of space on their drive? Blerf.
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Horsepoo!!!  (op)
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Jan 21, 2004, 11:03 PM
 
Originally posted by a2daj:
I just try and look at the cd-in check as a console game.
If I looked at it that way...I'd just buy myself a console.
     
joe
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Jan 22, 2004, 09:44 AM
 
Originally posted by redJag:
How is "CD-in" not copy protection?
Because the pirates can copy the CDs. So you end up with an ineffective copy protection scheme that inconveniences the legit owners. If CD-in actually worked, then at least the hassle would be justified. It doesn't......joe
     
joe
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Jan 22, 2004, 10:04 AM
 
Originally posted by a2daj:
I just try and look at the cd-in check as a console game. Every console game requires its own disk.

But not every game console has a 120GB hard drive like my Cube In all seriousness I'm fine with copy protection as long as it doesn't harrass the actual money paying customer (ie ME)! If I'm going to be treated like a criminal when I paid for the game, then I'm not going to want to pay next time. Shrink wrap has already cost me money over the years in buying real stinkers. So I'm getting a little fed up with the way the industry treats it's customers.

But not all good copy protection schemes cost as much as you implied. I got into a discussion on these boards recently with one of the software developers - sorry - forgot the thread. But he was interested in some of the suggestion we presented. ISTR one was the method Virtual Game Station uses where the software is somehow linked to the hardware. There were other ideas he liked - and plenty he didn't. However, one point he made is that the major publishers sometimes force the CD-in checks on them as part of the agreement when they port to Mac. So if we want new games ported they're probably going to have those useless CD-in checks. .......joe
     
Arkham_c
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Jan 22, 2004, 11:27 AM
 
Originally posted by joe:
If I'm going to be treated like a criminal when I paid for the game, then I'm not going to want to pay next time. Shrink wrap has already cost me money over the years in buying real stinkers. So I'm getting a little fed up with the way the industry treats it's customers.
The thing is, CD-in protection is the status quo. If you refuse to get games that require this, then 90% of the games will be off limits to you.

I completely agree that it's a worthless means of protection. If you go on a torrent server, all you see are .toast and .dmg images. Burn them on a CD and you have an exact duplicate of the original media. The companies need something more effective, and less intrusive. If the game has a serial number, they should do more to utilize it.
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Luca Rescigno
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Jan 22, 2004, 02:56 PM
 
Originally posted by jfinete:
Shitty ports make it worse, and discourage future game development.
Fixed that for you.

I don't think piracy is right by any means, but I can sympathize, considering there's no demo available to see if your hardware can handle the game.

Oh, and Halo isn't a "less than six months old" game. It's a "two years going on three years" old game. In fact, some would even consider it a "four year old" game, based on the date of the original demo at one of the Macworld conventions (MWNY 2000, maybe? I don't remember). But in its current form, it's over two years old. There's no reason it should run so poorly on such modern hardware. It's running like crap on machines that put the XBox to shame and would have owned any $3000+ computer from late 2001.

I don't think it's MacSoft's fault. Considering the PC version is just as bad in these respects, MacSoft doesn't have much to work with.

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DBvader
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Jan 22, 2004, 05:03 PM
 
Halo is actually an excellent port, as long as you have good hardware. My machine is only decent (Dual 867, 1 GB RAM, Radeon 9600), but the game runs flawlessly at a constant 28-35 FPS. Before, with my Radeon 9000, i was getting in the high teens.

Piracy is really a tough one to crack. Clearly, its not right. These excuses such as performance (upgrade your machine, its the mac not the game), the fact that you own it on XBOX (giving you the right to transfer platforms?), or anything else is really just a sad way of trying to vindicate yourself. Personally, I did pirate the game. Its excellent, and after installing my 9600, it runs beautifully. But, now that I know I like it, I think it would only be right to buy it (plus I really want to play online), Pirating each and every game is pretty weak, and really discourages growth on a platform. My whole point: If you pirate the game and like it, then you should really think about buying it.
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Angus_D
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Jan 24, 2004, 06:08 AM
 
I told myself that I'd only buy the game once the 1.03 patch was out. Now it is, I ordered it from Amazon. I wasn't convinced by MacSoft/Westlake's vendor support, and to a certain extent I'm still not (wtf, no display capture? that's insane).

The whole cd-in-the-drive thing is ludicrous. Sure, Halo had "excessive on-line piracy" but it was also MacSoft's best selling game of the past 4 years or something, wasn't it? I can imagine that a lot of people pirated it TO SEE HOW IT WOULD RUN ON THEIR HARDWARE. It's well known that Halo is demanding, and THERE IS NO DEMO. Why would you risk plonking down $50 or whatever on a game that you're not convinced would play acceptably on your machine? Then you'd have to go through the hassle of returning it, and a lot of places won't take back software once it's been opened.

Not to mention, if you pirated it, you couldn't play on-line because of the EXISTING COPY-PROTECTION SCHEME.
     
Squozen
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Feb 5, 2004, 03:11 AM
 
I bought Neverwinter Nights because the tech demo proved my Powerbook could easily handle the game.

I was vaguely interested in Halo, but I don't know how it will run on my 15" AlBook. Without a demo, there's no way to know (I don't pirate games), so MacSoft are out a sale. Sorry, guys.
     
Steb Mad
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Feb 5, 2004, 02:00 PM
 
Originally posted by Squozen:
I bought Neverwinter Nights because the tech demo proved my Powerbook could easily handle the game.

I was vaguely interested in Halo, but I don't know how it will run on my 15" AlBook. Without a demo, there's no way to know (I don't pirate games), so MacSoft are out a sale. Sorry, guys.
Agreed

Tech demo is the way to go if they really want to reduce the amount of piracy.

BTW, their article at MacCentral about Halo Piracy a few weeks ago was LAME.
     
SouthPaW1227
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Feb 5, 2004, 05:27 PM
 
Originally posted by Steb Mad:
Agreed

Tech demo is the way to go if they really want to reduce the amount of piracy.

BTW, their article at MacCentral about Halo Piracy a few weeks ago was LAME.
I totally agree...that interview was lame as crap. Reading that makes you WANT to pirate from them. By the way, I bought Halo for Mac just b/c I read that others w/ similar spec'd Macs had good results.
     
Bobby
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Feb 5, 2004, 06:04 PM
 
Originally posted by a2daj:
No matter what reasons, it's still pirating. And it's still bad. There's no good reason to pirate software no matter who owns whatever rights.
There's a good point though... How are you supposed to even be sure if it will run on your computer? I'd be mad if I bought it only to find out I threw $50 down the toilet because the game is way to much of a CPU hog, even on current systems...
     
york28
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Feb 5, 2004, 07:57 PM
 
I'm not into playing games, but I will admit that I will never pay for a Microsoft product, ever. I buy almost everything else. I'm sure some of you will brush this off as "still being stealing", which it is, but I'm willing to make that choice. Halo might be an acception to this, though, since it was at least ported by a Mac company. But I'm still irked about that whole Bungie thing.

Originally posted by a2daj:
No matter what reasons, it's still pirating. And it's still bad. There's no good reason to pirate software no matter who owns whatever rights.
The problem with this is you are assuming that fair business practices have been taking place, and that the consumer should purchase those products that he desires. That is how capitalism is supposed to work. However, there are many that would say that fair business practices have not been followed, and at that point the entire theory goes out the window.

Bottom line: quality products will sell well, and suceed financially even with a certain amount of piracy. But crap software, copy-protected or not, will never get anywhere. I haven't played Halo, and I'm not interested in it at all, but it is not an exception to this rule.
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emark
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Feb 5, 2004, 11:11 PM
 
I wonder what the conversion rate has been for those that have downloaded the game with the intent to purchase if the performance is acceptable?

A news clips says they claim there have been more downloads than sales...

I don't condone piracy, but have been incredibly hesitant to spend the $50 when there have been so many complaints.

I never played mac games until the last few months (barring the orginal lode runner eons ago...) but it was the demos that got me to try it....I've bought UT03, ghost recon, and wanted to buy Quake, but today finally found a new copy of Quake...the FIFTH vendor I've placed the order with now...let's see if they don't cancel/backorder too....

I have seriously considered downloading it just to try...and of course I'd buy it if I liked it...but if the play is slow or choppy, I'm not in the position to waste $50 if it's not working...and looking at forum discussion, it's tough to say whether that's going to be worth it....so, it may not be exactly "right" with the letter of the law, but I think it is in the "spirit".

I own all the software on my machine, and, retail and shareware.

it's not saying it's right, but it isn't easy to guage the # of people actually doing this vs. those pirating the stuff w/ no intention to buy. If there was a demo, I'd say then it was crazy and entirely wrong...but Minimum/Preferred System requirements don't translate well to individual systems or their users expectations....
     
gbafan
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Feb 5, 2004, 11:33 PM
 
There is no CD copy protection per say with Halo. You can easily copy the game CD to a CDR. Having the CD in the drive is not copy protection, just a nuance that MacSoft has employed that will not stop piracy of Halo.

The main "copy protection" with Halo is the CD Key. More companies need to use CD Keys and a CD key validating service like NWN or Blizzard games in order to stop pirates.

I don't hear about Blizzard being troubled by game pirates? Oh wait, you can't copy their CDs and they use CD keys. They also force you to have the CD in but I just use DMG image files to solve that problem. You could do the same for Halo.

All and all, MacSoft's feeble attempt at stopping piracy isn't stopping anything but people from buying the game due to the bad publicity of their whiney piracy outcry.
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zEnderz
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Feb 6, 2004, 01:38 AM
 
While I've nothing against Macsoft, they produced the best port I've ever played (and PURCHASED!) with Max Payne, I however have no problem with pirating games.

Yeah yeah, jump up on your moral highground... but I've been burned way too many times by just plain exploitive garbage. I say exploitive, because, the publishers and lame rags like IMG routinely extole the virtues of even the crappiest games, presumably under threat of publishers abandoning our "miniscule" platform unless these games sell big.

Consider my recent experience with "Bloodrayne" - this game is absolutely and completely unplayable crap - on even the fastest hardware. This game is maddeningly and frustratingly and uselessly bad (and still got a "great" rating from IMG) If you havent played it then dont comment because you dont know what the hell you're talking about. Selling this as a game in my mind is tantamount to plain and simple fraud and theft. And as ticked off as I was, I called the company that published this game and requested a refund. I was basically laughed at and told to go take a hike - not surprisingly....

So the next time that I am faced with a decision about whether to drop 50 bucks on a game from this publisher, or download it for free... Yeah right thats a no brainer. I'll pirate it in a heartbeat, as I did with Medal of Honor from the same publisher.. and as I'll do with the next game and the next game and the next game...

See the pattern that develops when you piss off your customers? Soap box all you want, but If you dont respect them, they wont respect you.

I dont respect the unnamed company in my rant for more reasons than "bloodrayne" and I dont respect Microsoft (hint hint).. no WAY im giving money to them in even the smallest way. And I will NEVER be extorted into paying for crap under the threat of canceled future development for the platform. If your a "Mac" game company and producing crap then you deserve to die from pirates. You'll get no sympathy from me.
     
spdemac
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Feb 6, 2004, 02:20 AM
 
I used to buy into some of the arguments many make for pirating software. As I have worked hard to build my business my tune has changed.

It really struck me recently at a dinner where the husband of a friend stated he never buys anything. It is too easy to download, most software is crap, companies charge too much, blah blah blah.

These all struck me as nothing more then rationalizations for breaking the law. Keep in mind when you are working hard at whatever profession you choose how it would feel if at the end of the day the sales or paycheck you received had a chunk randomly taken out because someone didn't feel like paying for fruits of your labor. Not to mention how you would pay the bills or be motivated to continue working hard.

Before you get all high and mighty about quality of the work or products. Every business and person earning a living does not please every customer they serve.

It is easy to blame some faceless company to justify piracy. But every pirated product definitely impacts someones job and earnings.

There are freeware and open source games out there, so play those if you do not want to support the publishers whose games are less than stellar.

There is no real excuse for pirating only rationalizations that do not hold water.
     
Rob MacLoud
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Feb 6, 2004, 04:16 AM
 
The big fallacy is this: "If people can't pirate it, they'll go out and buy it."

It's this thinking that leads those who create, those who port, and those who publish, to imagine a wealth of "lost revenue", and then spend time and money on measures that ultimately fail to increase sales by any significant degree. The honest user pays for these "anti-piracy measures", financially as well as in time and trouble.

I buy a lot of software, but I also "acquire" a lot of software too. I have bought acquired software later, not out of feelings of guilt, but out of wanting to "give" to those I've received from, in the same way that I contribute to "donation ware" sometimes.

To give an example, I acquired a copy (not beta) of a major Blizzard title about a week before its release. I had pre-ordered it and then after release was sent an email saying that massive demand meant I would have to wait a little longer for my software, and "would I like to cancel my order?", a little tempting as I was already playing the game, but I bought it. I figure the more companies like Blizzard there are out there, the better. How many game makers provide the Mac version at the same time as they release the PC version?

So why do I "acquire" software, well my reasoning is that if I only acquire what I would not, or often could not, have bought, then no one is going out of pocket on my account.

Greed is the real sin to beware of, and you can see it on both sides. Those who want more money for their software without providing more for it, and those who want to get more software without paying anything for it.

If you love the Mac as much as I do, and want to see good software made for our platform, then buy as much as, or even a little more than you can afford.

Even buy MS titles to pay those who port and publish them for us, MS are so rich they are hardly going to hurt from your holding back a few dollars, but Mac publishers are.

If there is no demo, "acquiring" is a good alternative. There are a few "quick and dirty" ports from console games recently that don't respond to the keyboard or have the "finish" we have come to expect, they would really have upset me if I'd bought them.

But be honest with yourself and buy software that you would pay for if there was no alternative.


No virtue is acquired in an instant, but step by step.
--Barrow.

No software is acquired in an instant, but byte by byte.
--MacLoud

Oh, and that's "fallacy" not "phallicy" you dickh**d!


     
a2daj
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Feb 6, 2004, 06:34 AM
 
Originally posted by zEnderz:
Consider my recent experience with "Bloodrayne" - this game is absolutely and completely unplayable crap - on even the fastest hardware. This game is maddeningly and frustratingly and uselessly bad (and still got a "great" rating from IMG) If you havent played it then dont comment because you dont know what the hell you're talking about. Selling this as a game in my mind is tantamount to plain and simple fraud and theft. And as ticked off as I was, I called the company that published this game and requested a refund. I was basically laughed at and told to go take a hike - not surprisingly....

So the next time that I am faced with a decision about whether to drop 50 bucks on a game from this publisher, or download it for free... Yeah right thats a no brainer. I'll pirate it in a heartbeat, as I did with Medal of Honor from the same publisher.. and as I'll do with the next game and the next game and the next game...

See the pattern that develops when you piss off your customers? Soap box all you want, but If you dont respect them, they wont respect you.

I dont respect the unnamed company in my rant for more reasons than "bloodrayne" and I dont respect Microsoft (hint hint).. no WAY im giving money to them in even the smallest way. And I will NEVER be extorted into paying for crap under the threat of canceled future development for the platform. If your a "Mac" game company and producing crap then you deserve to die from pirates. You'll get no sympathy from me.
Quit trying to rationalize stealing by lying. IMG did not give Bloodrayne a "great." They gave it a 4.5 which is hardly a "great" rating. In fact, I don't know of any Mac gaming site that gave BloodRayne a good review. PC and console sites on the other had... From IMG's review "But as it stands, I'm afraid that it's definitely one to avoid." In fact, Aspyr is definitly not going to be doing BloodRayne 2.

You'll get no sympathy from me.
     
Horsepoo!!!  (op)
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Feb 6, 2004, 09:21 AM
 
Originally posted by a2daj:

You'll get no sympathy from me.
I don't think he wants your sympathy. I think he wants you and developers to understand the mentality towards software that a significant group of people have.

Yes, stealing is wrong. And the reason why people don't walk into an EB store to physically steal a game is because you actually have to walk/drive/bus to the EB store, swipe it under a bunch of people's eyes and then walk out without the anti-theft devices announcing you. Since downloading it off the internet is so much easier and near risk-free, people will do that instead. Until there is an "internet police" or a way to catch people easily, this won't stop.

Piracy hurts...I agree. But to say it kills companies is ridiculous. The argument can go both ways: Piracy can also help a company. Piracy of MP3s actually helped obscure authors get known. Some people just want samples before getting the real thing...and piracy can do that for them and sometimes even HELP companies/authors that wouldn't have gotten a dime out of them because they weren't known.

Anyways...just trying to put a different perspective on piracy. It's wrong, but it can help (not saying it always does though).

In fact, how does MacPlay know whether or not some of these pirates didn't go out to buy Halo after downloading it off the net? Maybe the download/bought ratio is 50:50 but maybe in reality 25 of those that downloaded went out and bought Halo when they realized it was good and worked well on their computer. The reality would be 25:75 then. Again, I'm not saying it is but you get the point, I think.
( Last edited by Horsepoo!!!; Feb 6, 2004 at 09:28 AM. )
     
the Rebel
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Feb 6, 2004, 09:33 AM
 
Originally posted by Horsepoo!!!:
Let's face it...

Halo is old (but also highly anticipated)
Halo is slow on decent hardware.
Halo does not have a demo.

And then MacSoft wonders why people pirate this game?
The Halo release for the Mac is not old. It is new. MacSoft put a lot of time and money into Halo for the Mac and they deserve to be compensated.

Even if you were right though, none of your "points" are justification for pirating the game.

Regardless of how old or slow you think it is, why should you get it for free? If it is worth having and playing, then you should pay for it.

If there is not a playable demo and you only buy games that have playable demos, then do not buy Halo, but also do not pirate it. If they had a demo and you liked it, would you then buy the game or would you still go off and pirate it?

Pirating software is just plain wrong. Morally and legally wrong. If you do not think that the software is worth the price then live without the software; there is no logical justification for pirating it.
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Horsepoo!!!  (op)
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Feb 6, 2004, 10:19 AM
 
Originally posted by the Rebel:
The Halo release for the Mac is not old. It is new. MacSoft put a lot of time and money into Halo for the Mac and they deserve to be compensated.

Even if you were right though, none of your "points" are justification for pirating the game.

Regardless of how old or slow you think it is, why should you get it for free? If it is worth having and playing, then you should pay for it.

If there is not a playable demo and you only buy games that have playable demos, then do not buy Halo, but also do not pirate it. If they had a demo and you liked it, would you then buy the game or would you still go off and pirate it?

Pirating software is just plain wrong. Morally and legally wrong. If you do not think that the software is worth the price then live without the software; there is no logical justification for pirating it.
Good...now try to convince the masses. Good luck.
     
a2daj
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Feb 6, 2004, 12:05 PM
 
Originally posted by Horsepoo!!!:
I don't think he wants your sympathy. I think he wants you and developers to understand the mentality towards software that a significant group of people have.

Yes, stealing is wrong. And the reason why people don't walk into an EB store to physically steal a game is because you actually have to walk/drive/bus to the EB store, swipe it under a bunch of people's eyes and then walk out without the anti-theft devices announcing you. Since downloading it off the internet is so much easier and near risk-free, people will do that instead. Until there is an "internet police" or a way to catch people easily, this won't stop.

Piracy hurts...I agree. But to say it kills companies is ridiculous. The argument can go both ways: Piracy can also help a company. Piracy of MP3s actually helped obscure authors get known. Some people just want samples before getting the real thing...and piracy can do that for them and sometimes even HELP companies/authors that wouldn't have gotten a dime out of them because they weren't known.

Anyways...just trying to put a different perspective on piracy. It's wrong, but it can help (not saying it always does though).

In fact, how does MacPlay know whether or not some of these pirates didn't go out to buy Halo after downloading it off the net? Maybe the download/bought ratio is 50:50 but maybe in reality 25 of those that downloaded went out and bought Halo when they realized it was good and worked well on their computer. The reality would be 25:75 then. Again, I'm not saying it is but you get the point, I think.
Piracy does kill companies. I know people affected by it. Just because you don't see it doesn't mean it doesn't happen. And that guy is using BloodRayne to justify his piracy which he freely admits he'll continue doing. BloodRayne... And on false pretenses. He says he has no sympathy for the publishers... well I have no sympathy for him. I don't care what the reasons, there is no rationlization for pirating. Can't afford it? Don't buy it. Want to know what it runs like before buying it? Go to a friends house and check it out or wait for a demo. But it doesn't matter to zEnderz because he'll continue stealing Mac games. No sympathy from me.
     
emark
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Feb 6, 2004, 12:40 PM
 
1) I do have a problem w/ piracy....don't do it.

2) I do have a problem w/ bearing the risk of buying the game to find that what they describe as a minimum for good play to be unacceptable on my rig.

3) I think the letter and the spirit of the law are seperate....I don't know another mac user w/ halo...we don't all live in a college dorm or hang out after high school for hours w/ friends....to download a copy to try out---and buy it if you want to use it might be technically wrong, but without the companies offereing a guarantee, why should I bear the risk....

I fully want to support the guys who worked to do the port - but if there work was up to snuff....I only have a dual 800 g4 (which was the mac-daddy a while ago, but in a game w/o smp support counts for a single 800 for the most part)...and frankly, I don't have $200 or $380 for a new graphics card....

So, I do agree, it's shitty to pirate...if you use it, pay...but it's hard to see the harm in doing an unofficial demo....especially when this forum and other boards are full of contradictory (albeit subjective) assesments of performance.

How freakin' hard would it be to release 1 level of the game?????

Why not at least announce that there will be a demo, and give people some reason not to "unofficially demo" the game?????

In the end, nobody OWES me, or any of us a demo....and nobody should be using software they don't pay for....it's there right to do what they want, and no amount of dissatisfaction with corporations, or politics, or the cereal you ate for breakfast gives you the right to decide for a software publisher how to use/acquire their product. They get to set the terms, and if you don't like it, tough....PAY FOR IT IF YOU USE IT.
     
jeepandmacfan
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Feb 6, 2004, 07:15 PM
 
For some reason many people feel that as something becomes easier to get, it is less like stealing. If you have pirated software, you should picture yourself going to a store, and tucking that software box under your shirt and walking out the door. (The same goes for music, etc.) It's no different. I can remember when there were NO software demo's. Now that many products have demo's, those that don't aren't breaking the law! Software is a product. If you want the product, you should buy it. Nothing the software company did or didn't do justifies you or anyone stealing it. How did digital theft become acceptable?
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Angus_D
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Feb 6, 2004, 07:36 PM
 
Originally posted by jeepandmacfan:
[B]I can remember when there were NO software demo's./B]
Odd, there have always been demos as far as I can remember (going back to 1993/4 ish).
     
Horsepoo!!!  (op)
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Feb 6, 2004, 08:05 PM
 
Originally posted by jeepandmacfan:
How did digital theft become acceptable?
It didn't. It's just easier to do that going to the store and tucking the box under your armpit and walking out.

It was also easy to copy games onto 400k diskettes back in '85. Then it was really easy to put them onto 800k diskettes.

The int4rw3b is just the new file exchange medium for pirates because you've got as much risk getting caught there than when you were copying your friend's game onto your diskette.

Is it the same as going to the store and running off with a game? Yup. But that's not the argument here.
     
Brad Oliver
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Feb 6, 2004, 08:33 PM
 
Originally posted by Rob MacLoud:
It's this thinking that leads those who create, those who port, and those who publish, to imagine a wealth of "lost revenue", and then spend time and money on measures that ultimately fail to increase sales by any significant degree.
Speaking as a porter of Mac games, I don't see it this way. In fact, my motivation is fairly simple: if you didn't pay for it, I sure as hell don't want you to play it. That you would or would not buy it instead of pirating is mostly irrelevant to me. I worked my ass off, and when people play those games for free, it really cheeses me off. That's a much stronger motivator for me than some imagined "lost revenue". I port games to the Mac because I love the Mac, and as such pirating Mac games undermines everything I do.
Brad Oliver
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zEnderz
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Feb 6, 2004, 10:18 PM
 
Originally posted by a2daj:
Quit trying to rationalize stealing by lying. IMG did not give Bloodrayne a "great." They gave it a 4.5 which is hardly a "great" rating. In fact, I don't know of any Mac gaming site that gave BloodRayne a good review. PC and console sites on the other had... From IMG's review "But as it stands, I'm afraid that it's definitely one to avoid." In fact, Aspyr is definitly not going to be doing BloodRayne 2.

You'll get no sympathy from me.
I looked on IMG today, and you are correct, they are currently rating it a 4.5. However, I have a clear recollection of IMG rating this game an 8 before I purchased it. When I read the review there was a minor comment about the mouse becoming unresponsive on various machines - they blew it off and gave the game an 8. They apparently changed their minds, after all of their customers started slamming the game in their forums. Consider : Bloodrayne was published in May 2nd of 2003 - the current date on IMG's review is August 20 2003 -- did IMG actually wait FOUR MONTHS to review this game? With such a dearth of Mac games, its highly unlikely that they were "too busy" to review it for FOUR MONTHS. Or did IMG amend their review afterwards - I could however be wrong but my memory makes me think not.

In anycase, this in no way changes the fact that Aspyr robbed me of 50 bucks. They owed me this, and anyone else who bought the game, by lying to us about the performance requirements and playability of the game and stealing our money. When I was disatisfied, they refused to refund my money, so yes they stole it. So, now I've been forced to get my money back from them, with interest + penalty for frustration. I payed for a playable game, I will get a playable game. Too damn bad for them if its something other than Bloodrayne.

This is not "stealing" its fair and just. You can smile and turn the other cheek when someone slaps you, but I slap back. Ill glady pay for software from companies who support and stand by their product and I routinely do - including shareware programs and programs from big publishers. I will not support companies who steal from me or conduct their business in an immoral and unethical manner (Microsoft). It is a public service to pirate their software - kill their profits and put them in the grave thats the best thing that can happen.

I dont need to rationalize. To rationalize implys that I need to convince myself against my better judgement. Hahah... nothing could be further from the truth. I might just as well say you're rationalizing your argument against piracy to support your own flawed concept of responsibility. We are awash in crappy poorly developed buggy software, because of Windows/Microsoft etc.. we have been conditioned to accept this as normal and "alright". It may be normal, but it is anything but alright. When is the last time you television required a "patch" to fix its many problems? Its about time developers accepted responsibility for their own actions.
     
Steb Mad
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Feb 7, 2004, 02:02 AM
 
zEnderz, you're right that IMG gave Bloodrayne like 8-9s. They quietly changed it to 4.5 after so many people got pissed off.
( Last edited by Steb Mad; Feb 7, 2004 at 07:14 PM. )
     
Brad Oliver
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Feb 7, 2004, 04:38 PM
 
Originally posted by zEnderz:
I will not support companies who steal from me or conduct their business in an immoral and unethical manner (Microsoft). It is a public service to pirate their software - kill their profits and put them in the grave thats the best thing that can happen.
So you want to put me and my company (Aspyr) out of business because you bought a really bad game? Step back for a moment and take a rational look at all the other stuff Aspyr has done - we do support all of our products (including BloodRayne) with patches when appropriate. It's a rare game that ships from us or any other company that doesn't eventually require one. In fact, I would argue that if a game ships and is never patched, that's more a sign of the publisher's inability to support that game than anything else.

All that aside, IMG is not the only website to publish reviews of Mac games - there is also MacGamer.com. And you can find reviews in MacWorld and MacAddict as well. If you look at MacGamer and MacWorld, you'll see that BloodRayne was not loved by them, to put it kindly. If the game happens to be cross-platform, you can go to www.gamerankings.com and get comprehensive review rankings of the game on the PC side.

It's also worth pointing out that, over time, most games drop dramatically in price. I'm not sure what the mentality is that says most people must buy games when they're $50, but if the game is a relative unknown to you or is a low-profile title, there's a lot to be said for waiting rather than impatiently being the first on your block to drop a Grant on a new game.
Brad Oliver
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emark
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Feb 7, 2004, 05:08 PM
 
Brad:

I agree Pirating sucks. Regardless of whether it's MS, Aspyr, or MacSoft.

How do you suggest someone guage whether to buy a title when performance on their system is the question...??

Reviews seem to be biased. MInimum requriements don't quite tell the tale. If I knew someone who could let me install their disc to see how it would play, great, otherwise, I'm SOL if the play isn't smooth. it's too subjective. It would be nice to have a calculator or reliable reference to estimate the fps w/ given hardware and settings...

Regardless of how it was, when $50 are on the line, Why not release one level, or ten or twenty minute demo...and then have no pity on downloaders and file swappers and file suits like the RIAA to enforce rights which are unquestionably yours...?
     
gizzard
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Feb 7, 2004, 05:56 PM
 
Originally posted by zEnderz:
I looked on IMG today, and you are correct, they are currently rating it a 4.5. However, I have a clear recollection of IMG rating this game an 8 before I purchased it. When I read the review there was a minor comment about the mouse becoming unresponsive on various machines - they blew it off and gave the game an 8. They apparently changed their minds, after all of their customers started slamming the game in their forums.
I am unaware that we changed the final rating of Bloodrayne, but if we did, it shouldn't have been. If the reviewer orginally rated the game an "8" it should have stayed that way. I will verify this with Tuncer.

In any case, a review represents the opinion of one person. It is not meant to reflect the opinion of the entire Mac gaming community or everyone at IMG. The purpose of reading a review is to inform yourself of a particular game (or piece of hardware) and decide whether it appeals to you (assuming the review is written well). Is it inconceivable that someone could have liked BloodRayne? Is it not possible they were able to look past the (glaring) bugs and enjoyed the gameplay? Absolutely not. If the reviewer felt the game deserved an 8, then he should have scored it an 8. And if he isn't able to stand by his score and changes it due to peer pressure, then I question that person's journalistic integrity.

Consider : Bloodrayne was published in May 2nd of 2003 - the current date on IMG's review is August 20 2003 -- did IMG actually wait FOUR MONTHS to review this game? With such a dearth of Mac games, its highly unlikely that they were "too busy" to review it for FOUR MONTHS. Or did IMG amend their review afterwards - I could however be wrong but my memory makes me think not.
We were busy cutting meat, okay? Give us a break.

In anycase, this in no way changes the fact that Aspyr robbed me of 50 bucks. They owed me this, and anyone else who bought the game, by lying to us about the performance requirements and playability of the game and stealing our money. When I was disatisfied, they refused to refund my money, so yes they stole it. So, now I've been forced to get my money back from them, with interest + penalty for frustration. I payed for a playable game, I will get a playable game. Too damn bad for them if its something other than Bloodrayne.
Do you think you would be able to identify the Aspyr employee who forcefully took $50 from you? If so, I would recommend reporting it to your local authorities.

Ohhhhh. You mean to tell me that you willingly paid $50 at the cash register for Bloodrayne? Well, that's not robbery then.

And as others have already pointed out in this thread, your justification for pirating games is ludicrious. I hope the police pay you a visit at night and give you nice scare.

blah blah blah lame justification for piracy blah blah blah
Do not pass Go. Do not collect $200. Go directly to Jail.
     
Steb Mad
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Feb 7, 2004, 07:29 PM
 
gizzard, what's up with your lack of professionalism?

bad tone you got there
     
Brad Oliver
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Feb 7, 2004, 07:56 PM
 
Originally posted by emark:
How do you suggest someone guage whether to buy a title when performance on their system is the question...??
You wait for a demo. If one doesn't come, and you can't find a legitimate means to try out the game on similar hardware (say, via an Apple store demo), then the onus of responsibility falls onto the consumer, and that doesn't include pirating the game.

Ultimately, game companies want you to buy their games, so they tend to release demos wherever practical - this is certainly the case with Aspyr. Reviews and feedback from other users with similar hardware can also apply. Most games include a means to gauge the framerate, and more often than not, several people in various gaming forums are happy to oblige requests. If you can't get satisfaction, then perhaps you shouldn't be buying the game, and let the publisher know why. This helps tell us how important (or not) these things are. However, that doesn't give anyone carte blanche to pirate the game.

Regardless of how it was, when $50 are on the line, Why not release one level, or ten or twenty minute demo...and then have no pity on downloaders and file swappers and file suits like the RIAA to enforce rights which are unquestionably yours...?
I think this is generally the case though. When a demo exists for the PC game, one typically comes out for the Mac, at least with Aspyr titles. True, it doesn't ship day and date with the game's release to shelves, but they generally follow before too long - the Jedi Academy demo was released about 3 weeks after it arrived on store shelves. I can't speak for other companies, of course.
Brad Oliver
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Brad Oliver
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Feb 7, 2004, 08:01 PM
 
Originally posted by gizzard:
In any case, a review represents the opinion of one person. It is not meant to reflect the opinion of the entire Mac gaming community or everyone at IMG.
Questions of review tampering aside, it's important to also note that IMG has a system that allows for reader reviews alongside their review, so you can see if the general populace considers the game better or worse. Obviously it's not a perfect system, but it exists to help provide balance.

There are other checks too - VersionTracker and MacUpdate both provide reader reviews. The same caveats apply - you have to sift through some reviews that are obviously useless - but the majority are at least marginally useful if not moreso.
Brad Oliver
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joe
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Feb 8, 2004, 04:35 AM
 
Do you think you would be able to identify the Aspyr employee who forcefully took $50 from you? If so, I would recommend reporting it to your local authorities.

Ohhhhh. You mean to tell me that you willingly paid $50 at the cash register for Bloodrayne? Well, that's not robbery then.


While I agree with you on piracy (it's theft - period) you may be overlooking some consumer issues that are fueling the problem. Shrink Wrap licensing has placed us in the unenviable position of buying a product with little to no idea of how well it's going to run on our systems. The wide disparity in consumer hardware configurations and individual performance expectations makes most reviews a guessing game at best. And then there's the lack of SMP support - usually on the games that need it most. And I don't want to get started on the copy protection of choice these days :/

I'm not suggesting any of this is an excuse for piracy. It's not! But I've been burned more than once shelling out $$$ on a POS game. So when I read your 2nd statement in particular, it was more than a little insulting. It's like - yeah - we've got your money looser so what'r you gonna do about it. Shrink Wrap says there's nothing we can do. And anyone that doesn't buy the game 1st before trying it out on their own hardware is automatically branded a pirate. For consumers it's been a loose-loose situation for quite some time. I'm not sure what the solution is. Maybe the software industry could reduce piracy by addressing some of the customer issues above instead of always blaming the "pirates." ..........joe
     
Brad Oliver
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Feb 8, 2004, 02:05 PM
 
Originally posted by joe:
Maybe the software industry could reduce piracy by addressing some of the customer issues above instead of always blaming the "pirates."
You raise valid concerns, Joe, but I'm personally skeptical that they impact piracy all that much. I'd say they're valid but unrelated.

I've been tracking the number of downloads of Jedi Academy off a popular BitTorrent tracker. When the Jedi Academy demo was released a few weeks ago, the number of average concurrent downloads each day actually went up compared to before the demo's release. This certainly seems to imply that the demo increased the number of people pirating the game in addition to providing a legitimate means to try the game before you buy.
Brad Oliver
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Dair Grant
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Feb 8, 2004, 06:50 PM
 
When the Jedi Academy demo was released a few weeks ago, the number of average concurrent downloads each day actually went up compared to before the demo's release.
Unfortunately this is also what we've experienced. For Rayman 3 we went out of our way to get the demo released before the game was available to retail, to make sure people were able to try it out before deciding if they wanted to purchase.

Unfortunately this has made no dent in the number of people downloading it. I've been watching a similar site for the last week, and at any one time there are about 100 people downloading the full game. Given that the demo has been available for weeks, I find it hard to believe they're downloading a copy to try it out on their machines.

When you see this happening time and again, it does make it difficult to believe that people are downloading the full version in lieu of the demo.


-dair
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joe
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Feb 8, 2004, 10:05 PM
 
Originally posted by Brad Oliver:
You raise valid concerns, Joe, but I'm personally skeptical that they impact piracy all that much. I'd say they're valid but unrelated.
I wouldn't be so sure. If consumers are starting to feel slighted they're not going to want to pay for the next new game. I'm not singling out anyone in the industry especially you. It's the entire industry that needs to change. They have to appreciate we've given up consumer rights in order for them make money. They've taken us for granted, and now there's a means for consumers to bypass them almost entirely. I don't agree with it because it can only end one way - no new games! But constantly harping on the rampant "piracy" is not the answer. Give us what we want and we'll pay for it. Apple proved that with the iTMS...........joe
     
 
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