[ESLP]

Haha

How much do you think new version will be

[TETENAL]

Haha

$129

[ajbaker00]

Originally Posted by mdc 

1. Microsoft Office is available for the Mac. It is compatible with Windows files.

2. In the past Apple has offered the new OS to people who bought a new Mac after they annouce the official release date. Apple has yet to announce anything other than "October" so as of today, no one is getting a free copy of 10.5.

Please correct me if I am wrong, but I thought Apple had offered a free upgrade if you purchased less than 14 days before the release. Having said that, if you buy mid October and they only announce the release date end of this month, still no free copy...

[Rumor Addict]

Yes they did offer a free upgrade to 10.4 if you had recently bought a mac. I was thinking it was a month rather than 14 days however. Cant remember. Anyone?

[Rumor Addict]

Found it!

Apple - Mac OS X - Up-To-Date Programs

Tiger shipped on April 29th, 2005. If you bought your computer on or after April 12th you got the tiger upgrade for 10 bucks. So it was only a bit more than a couple of weeks.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by Rumor Addict 

Found it!

Apple - Mac OS X - Up-To-Date Programs

Tiger shipped on April 29th, 2005. If you bought your computer on or after April 12th you got the tiger upgrade for 10 bucks. So it was only a bit more than a couple of weeks.

April 12 was the day they announced the release date. So, as mdc stated earlier.

[wobbly]

There is some buzz about secret features being unveiled as Leopard is released, things that haven't been included in the developer builds. Is there any precedence for this with previous versions of OS X? I'm not aware of anything like this happening with other builds 10.0, 10.1, 10.2, 10.3, or 10.4. Anybody?

Because as it looks now Leopard doesn't look so appealing to warrant a switch from Tiger.

thanks

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by wobbly 

There is some buzz about secret features being unveiled as Leopard is released, things that haven't been included in the developer builds. Is there any precedence for this with previous versions of OS X? I'm not aware of anything like this happening with other builds 10.0, 10.1, 10.2, 10.3, or 10.4. Anybody?

Yes, there are usually rumors about secret features, and they always turn out to be false. Apple isn't just going to throw in some untested feature at the last minute.

However, people say every version isn't compelling enough to upgrade, and yet somehow we're not all using 10.1. I don't know what some people are expecting. Sharks with lasers on their heads? 10.5 looks good to me, aside from the craptacular dock.

[MartiNZ]

The preview of Preview on appleinsider looked like a pretty appealing upgrade ... it might need a name change before long if they keep upping the editing possibilities - paint program ftw!

I think it's more those sorts of upgrades that make the OS appealing overall, rather than the glossy top-10, spaces, time machine, etc. Whatever, I'm still excited about it .

[Chuckit]

Eh, I think Time Machine sounds pretty darn cool as long as it works right. A decent, well-integrated backup solution is worth the upgrade price just by itself. (Anybody who disagrees will agree with me eventually when your hard drive goes up in flames.)

[wobbly]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

Yes, there are usually rumors about secret features, and they always turn out to be false. Apple isn't just going to throw in some untested feature at the last minute.

However, people say every version isn't compelling enough to upgrade, and yet somehow we're not all using 10.1. I don't know what some people are expecting. Sharks with lasers on their heads? 10.5 looks good to me, aside from the craptacular dock.

thanks, that is what i suspected...i've never heard of any untested features going in to a released OS. by the way I use 10.4.x and it works great...if the finder was improved and ability to customize metadata I'd be more interested in the upgrade. so far I haven't heard anything along these lines.

[CharlesS]

Originally Posted by wobbly 

There is some buzz about secret features being unveiled as Leopard is released, things that haven't been included in the developer builds. Is there any precedence for this with previous versions of OS X? I'm not aware of anything like this happening with other builds 10.0, 10.1, 10.2, 10.3, or 10.4. Anybody?

They always rumor this, and they're always full of it. Features don't get added to products at the last minute without going through beta testing. That's just not how it works. To do such a thing would result in extremely buggy software. Features occasionally get removed from products at the last minute if they're too buggy to ship, but it doesn't work the other way around.

As for the desirability of Leopard, let's talk about that after it ships, so I can tell you about some nice things it has without worrying about NDA.

[0157988944]

Stop talking about your NDA. If you can't talk, don't talk.

[FireWire]

Originally Posted by adamfishercox 

Stop talking about your NDA. If you can't talk, don't talk.

I never got this.. Why don't people just create another username and post from a place that can't be traced to them? Do they really believe they're holding state secret that will hurt someone if revealed? I know you "gave your word" and signed a contract, but still... To me, from a moral standpoint, it doesn't count, same as the "I will not use LimeWire for copyright infringement" checkbox... Anyway, it would be interesting to discuss this in another topic.

[CharlesS]

So it doesn't count to you. To some others of us, it does. Quit whining about it. Anyway, it's less than a month to wait now.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by FireWire 

I never got this.. Why don't people just create another username and post from a place that can't be traced to them? Do they really believe they're holding state secret that will hurt someone if revealed? I know you "gave your word" and signed a contract, but still... To me, from a moral standpoint, it doesn't count, same as the "I will not use LimeWire for copyright infringement" checkbox... Anyway, it would be interesting to discuss this in another topic.

It kind of makes you feel important to have secrets? I occasionally have to sign NDAs at work myself, I feel pretty important when I do

[- - e r i k - -]

It's not really secret when the whole world knows about it, so yes the "I can't talk about it, NDA" schtick = vanity.

[CharlesS]

Not wanting to be hunted down by Apple's lawyers or kicked off the ADC program might have something to do with it too.

If you don't like Apple's policy of making developers sign NDAs, take it up with them. I can't do much about it from my end.

[- - e r i k - -]

Originally Posted by CharlesS 

Not wanting to be hunted down by Apple's lawyers or kicked off the ADC program might have something to do with it too.

We are not talking about not talking about it, what we are talking about is you talking about how you can not talk about it all the time

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by - - e r i k - - 

We are not talking about not talking about it, what we are talking about is you talking about how you can not talk about it all the time

I think it was actually a way of hinting that he likes Leopard without actually offering any NDA-violating information (and yes, Apple does smack down developers who violate their NDA).

[CharlesS]

Yup.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

I think it was actually a way of hinting that he likes Leopard without actually offering any NDA-violating information (and yes, Apple does smack down developers who violate their NDA).

But if you really wanted to violate it, you could easily post with a Mailinator email address and a different forum username from a public terminal or something. There is no way Apple can track you down if you haven't left a trail.


Of course, I probably wouldn't bother doing this in his shoes anyway since I generally don't believe the stuff I read from random anonymous people who claim to be in the know...

[CharlesS]

Plus, what would be the point of going to all that trouble, making a fraudulent account, faking one's identity... just to reveal some minor details of an operating system that will be out in less than a month anyway and then we can all discuss it until the cows come home? Gimme a break.

[FireWire]

Anyway, I don't get the point of imposing a NDA when anybody with a few hundreds bucks can have access to the precious secret! What do they think they are hiding? Do they think the competition can't see what they're doing? "Yeah hi, I'm a software developer, here's my check for 499$. Thank you!" [Bill Gates walking away laughing]

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

Yes, there are usually rumors about secret features, and they always turn out to be false. Apple isn't just going to throw in some untested feature at the last minute.

However, people say every version isn't compelling enough to upgrade, and yet somehow we're not all using 10.1. I don't know what some people are expecting. Sharks with lasers on their heads? 10.5 looks good to me, aside from the craptacular dock.

Having said that, Apple is KNOWN to make GUI changes and revamps at the very last minute. (Well GUIs they were working on for along time, just to stick them in at the last minute.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

Eh, I think Time Machine sounds pretty darn cool as long as it works right. A decent, well-integrated backup solution is worth the upgrade price just by itself. (Anybody who disagrees will agree with me eventually when your hard drive goes up in flames.)

Yup. This is the MAIN reason my workplace is letting me upgrade to Tiger.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by - - e r i k - - 

It's not really secret when the whole world knows about it, so yes the "I can't talk about it, NDA" schtick = vanity.

Of course it does. If I was under such a thing, i'd just not talk about it.

Originally Posted by FireWire 

Anyway, I don't get the point of imposing a NDA when anybody with a few hundreds bucks can have access to the precious secret! What do they think they are hiding? Do they think the competition can't see what they're doing? "Yeah hi, I'm a software developer, here's my check for 499$. Thank you!" [Bill Gates walking away laughing]

Heck, you don't even have to do that. Just know the addy of a decent torrent site.

[JLL]

Originally Posted by Kevin 

Having said that, Apple is KNOWN to make GUI changes and revamps at the very last minute. (Well GUIs they were working on for along time, just to stick them in at the last minute.

Examples?

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by JLL 

Examples?

Aqua for one. Even the version of Aqua they previed looked nothing like the Public Beta or final release. Before that OS X had a NeXT theme, or a darker Platinum theme in the developers preview.

And that was the last time Apple has really revamped it's GUI. 10.5 is the next incarnation of Apple's OS 10 GUIs.

I see 10.0 as being a totally new "GUI" and 10.0 - 10.4 are just minor tweaks and improvements to said gui.

10.5 is more of a complete overhaul. Just like 10.0 was.

And at this moment, they is a "slick GUI" battle going on between MS and Apple. Apple is trying to come out with the sleekest, coolest looking GUI, while still being unobtrusive and usable.

MS is just trying to put eye candy on Windows for the most part.

[CharlesS]

Originally Posted by FireWire 

Anyway, I don't get the point of imposing a NDA when anybody with a few hundreds bucks can have access to the precious secret! What do they think they are hiding? Do they think the competition can't see what they're doing? "Yeah hi, I'm a software developer, here's my check for 499$. Thank you!" [Bill Gates walking away laughing]

Actually, I'm pretty sure that Microsoft has access to the developer builds - they have to. They're the biggest developer for the Mac platform that there is.

I have no idea why Apple imposes an NDA, and it doesn't matter, because I have absolutely no say about it. If a statement like "Leopard actually has some nice stuff in it, which I'll tell you about as soon as I'm off the NDA" really raises your blood pressure that much, then you really need to turn the computer off and step outside.

Originally Posted by Kevin 

Aqua for one. Even the version of Aqua they previed looked nothing like the Public Beta or final release. Before that OS X had a NeXT theme, or a darker Platinum theme in the developers preview.

There were some minor changes between the Public Beta and 10.0, yes. I can guarantee you that those changes weren't added 4 weeks before the release date. And regardless, we all remember what 10.0 was like. It was the buggiest OS Apple ever released. The OS never crashed, yeah, but it screwed up in just about every other way possible. I remember maintaining a huge RTF file containing all the bugs that 10.0 had, and then after I had collected enough I'd report about 75 at a time, because going through the feedback page for each individual bug was too time consuming. Heck, my roommate at the time was running Windows ME, and even he was snickering at some of the bugs in that OS. 10.0 was considered a second beta by many, with 10.1 being the real release, and even Apple acknowledged it by making 10.1 a free upgrade. So yeah, maybe 10.0 isn't the greatest example there.

[analogue SPRINKLES]

I remember OSX 10.0 wasn't crashy or anything just incredibly slow as all hell with launching apps and of course the always important window resizing. Not to mention it couldn't play DVD's or burn CD's.

I tried but I couldn't use it for day to day work at all. Once 10.1 came around though it was pretty damn good to use as a main computer as long as you didn't mind fireing up classic for most of your apps.

[analogika]

Originally Posted by Kevin 

Aqua for one. Even the version of Aqua they previed looked nothing like the Public Beta or final release. Before that OS X had a NeXT theme, or a darker Platinum theme in the developers preview.

Wrong.

Aqua was introduced at MacWorld Expo in January 2000 and released to developers in DP3.
Ars Technica: Mac OS X DP3: Trial by Water - Page 1 - (2/2000)

DP4 was released in May 2000 and changed and refined Aqua quite a bit.
Ars Technica: Mac OS X DP4 - Page 1 - (5/2000)

Public beta was released in September 2000, with very minor (read: "almost no") changes to Aqua over DP4.
Ars Technica: Mac OS X Beta - Page 1 - (10/2000)

Only minor changes after that until the introduction of brushed metal and the removal of stripes and extraneous transparency.

I see 10.0 as being a totally new "GUI" and 10.0 - 10.4 are just minor tweaks and improvements to said gui.

10.5 is more of a complete overhaul. Just like 10.0 was.

Point stands, except that DP4 was the Aqua milestone (which was not 4 weeks, but 4 MONTHS before a public release) - and that the revamping of the Finder in 10.3/10.4 is arguably a pretty big step in whichever direction.

[CharlesS]

Between the Public Beta and 10.0, they moved the Apple icon to the left side of the menu bar, took the bezels off the toolbar items in the Finder windows, renamed "Finder" to "Desktop", and... well, there were probably some other minor things, I don't remember. It wasn't anything major. And of course the Public Beta was six months before the release of 10.0, and those changes didn't happen in the last four weeks. And with that said, they obviously should have taken more time than they did, because 10.0 turned out to be fantastically buggy. The point is that if Apple started adding features right now, Leopard would end up even worse than 10.0, and we definitely don't want that.

DP4 was, of course, even earlier than the beta, and like analogika says, that was where the Aqua skin was mostly nailed down. I don't remember exactly when it was released, but John Siracusa wrote an article about it in May 2000, which means it was at least ten months before 10.0 was publically released.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by analogika 

Wrong.

Aqua was introduced at MacWorld Expo in January 2000 and released to developers in DP3.
Ars Technica: Mac OS X DP3: Trial by Water - Page 1 - (2/2000)

Yes and that Aqua didn't look like the Public Beta's Aqua. So yes, yes indeed I was right. Do you not remember the purple collapsable menus? The ugly dock? There a was a lot that was different. It even had a OS 9 switchable theme.

Point stands, except that DP4 was the Aqua milestone (which was not 4 weeks, but 4 MONTHS before a public release) - and that the revamping of the Finder in 10.3/10.4 is arguably a pretty big step in whichever direction.

I don't know why you are being so defensive and arguementive. I wasn't even talking to you.

I used every OS X update that was out there since DP3 or DP4. Can't remember which one. I know I had most of Sosumi finished before the public beta was even out.

I am just betting what we see now, isn't what the final version will be. I don't recall saying there will be a DRASTIC change in it. I only think a few things will change.

Just like they always do..

We have seen most of the overhaul in the OS already. The final versions I am betting, will have refinements that hasn't been shown IMHO.

If not, Apple's turning into a real stinker as far as the GUI department goes.

[analogika]

Originally Posted by Kevin 

Yes and that Aqua didn't look like the Public Beta's Aqua. So yes, yes indeed I was right. Do you not remember the purple collapsable menus? The ugly dock? There a was a lot that was different.

You obviously go through posts only reading every third sentence or so.

This is what I posted:

Originally Posted by analogika 

DP4 was released in May 2000 and changed and refined Aqua quite a bit.
Ars Technica: Mac OS X DP4 - Page 1 - (5/2000)

Public beta was released in September 2000, with very minor (read: "almost no") changes to Aqua over DP4.
Ars Technica: Mac OS X Beta - Page 1 - (10/2000)

Only minor changes after that

YOUR claim (verbatim, so don't shout that you never said such a thing) was that
"Apple is KNOWN to make GUI changes and revamps at the very last minute. (Well GUIs they were working on for along time, just to stick them in at the last minute.)"

No, Apple is NOT known to do such things, and in fact, they have NEVER done such things, and the example you brought claiming to support your assertion that Apple does such things is simply WRONG, because virtually NO RELEVANT CHANGES were made to Aqua between May 2000 and September 2000.

[lpkmckenna]

Originally Posted by Kevin 

We have seen most of the overhaul in the OS already. The final versions I am betting, will have refinements that hasn't been shown IMHO.

I think so, too, but they'll be small. New scroll bars or something. Because I just can't believe Apple would ship Leopard with 2 types of scroll bars for no good reason.

[CharlesS]

Originally Posted by Kevin 

I am just betting what we see now, isn't what the final version will be.

How much?

[besson3c]

I agree with CharlesS. Software companies don't release new features that are not tested unless they absolutely have to. Wet dreams for Mac fanatics is not a good enough reason, especially when the fuel behind these same wet dreams can lead to bad PR when the feature doesn't work as expected.

[earthlings]

What's with the wait on Leopard? I said I was waiting patiently, but now I am unpatient. I need a new Mac ASAP.

[0157988944]

What wait? October is far from over. And it's "IMpatient."

[monkeybrain]

I agree with others above that Apple won't stick in new features now, but what we are really talking about is some new scrollbars and possibly buttons. They aren't new features, they don't really cause bugs. They can add them at the last minute. So everyone stop arguing and just hope they do, because those old scrollbars are an embarrassment and have been for a long time.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by monkeybrain 

I agree with others above that Apple won't stick in new features now, but what we are really talking about is some new scrollbars and possibly buttons. They aren't new features, they don't really cause bugs. They can add them at the last minute. So everyone stop arguing and just hope they do, because those old scrollbars are an embarrassment and have been for a long time.

Even scrollbars and buttons require usability testing and user experience feedback

[MindFad]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Even scrollbars and buttons require usability testing and user experience feedback

Considering the scroll bars have been in iTunes for Jebus knows how long, I'm sure Apple considers them "usable" by now. The current user experience seems to be that Aqua scroll bars need to GTFO.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by analogika 

You obviously go through posts only reading every third sentence or so.

No

YOUR claim (verbatim, so don't shout that you never said such a thing) was that
"Apple is KNOWN to make GUI changes and revamps at the very last minute. (Well GUIs they were working on for along time, just to stick them in at the last minute.)"

No, Apple is NOT known to do such things, and in fact, they have NEVER done such things, and the example you brought claiming to support your assertion that Apple does such things is simply WRONG, because virtually NO RELEVANT CHANGES were made to Aqua between May 2000 and September 2000.

LOL!

The DP3



Now compare that to the FINISHED OS.

BTW DP4 didn't look totally like 10.0.0 either.

Remember Analogica, I messed with the graphic resources from DP3 to 10.1

There was HUGE changes in that resource. Large changes in it where made left and right.

And the final version I got before the GM had a different Extras.rsrc than the GM had.

But of course I don't know what I am talking about.

Again, I am not talking about redoing the GUI all-together. Like I explained to you before. Just minor adjustments to "surprise"

Originally Posted by lpkmckenna 

I think so, too, but they'll be small. New scroll bars or something. Because I just can't believe Apple would ship Leopard with 2 types of scroll bars for no good reason.

Same here.

And some that were put into place at the very last minute. It's one of the main gripes themers had at the time.

Originally Posted by besson3c 

I agree with CharlesS. Software companies don't release new features that are not tested unless they absolutely have to. Wet dreams for Mac fanatics is not a good enough reason, especially when the fuel behind these same wet dreams can lead to bad PR when the feature doesn't work as expected.

Well graphic files aren't really features.

Originally Posted by MindFad 

Considering the scroll bars have been in iTunes for Jebus knows how long, I'm sure Apple considers them "usable" by now. The current user experience seems to be that Aqua scroll bars need to GTFO.

Not that a graphic file really has to be "tested"
I've done enough themeing to OS X to release this. As long as you get dimensions right (And it's hard to mess up) everything is fine.

They don't need third party developers to test out their "new gui" esp if it works just like 10.5. Does now (And I believe it will) I just think that Apple isn't releasing the whole cat out of the bag yet.

We will soon see.

[Kevin]

BTW this is from someone that I used to theme with and talk alot with during the DP3/DP4/Public beta days. What he The forums official "GUI Punk" had to say about it.

Originally Posted by swiz 

heh, they'll probably do what I did a while ago- take a break to wait and see if they'll stop messing with multiple interfaces and settle on a "theme" format which doesnt disuade GUI developers from sticking with it. It was a nonstop marathon of updating just to keep the old GUI's looking right. For someone with multiple themes, you would just finish updating and then the next incrmeental OS update would release and screw something up again. Forget that.

[CharlesS]

Originally Posted by Kevin 

LOL!

The DP3

<image>

Now compare that to the FINISHED OS.

He specifically referred to DP4 as the Aqua milestone, so if you are going to focus on DP3, I'll take that as an admission that you're wrong.

And besides, DP3 was over a year before the 10.0 release, not four weeks before. And even disregarding that, let's not forget that 10.0 was a special case! And it was definitely not something we would want Apple to emulate, because it had more bugs than the state of Minnesota.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by CharlesS 

He specifically referred to DP4 as the Aqua milestone, so if you are going to focus on DP3, I'll take that as an admission that you're wrong.

He may have, but I was not. I was referring to Aqua as a whole. It changed MANY TIMES in a small amount of time. Even between small updates some of the graphics would change. How do I know this? I spent hours and hours looking at these graphics for days and modifying them as soon as anyone could get their hands on it. (Legally or not)

And besides, DP3 was over a year before the 10.0 release, not four weeks before. And even disregarding that, let's not forget that 10.0 was a special case!

And Apple is claiming 10.5 will have aa new GUI. Now they may mean JUST LAYOUT, but I doubt this.

I remember iTunes having OS X type GUI elements in it before OS X was even out. It seems the same thing is happening now. I am not talking about a MAJOR GUI overhaul like OS 9 to OS X was. I've stated that. I am talking about minor adjustments. Like I don't see the Aqua scroll bars being there. And a few other minor things. I do see Apple wanting to keep a cap on this look. I mean they wouldn't want the look to be "Old" before 10.5 shipped like Aqua was. I know I was sick of it by the time 10.0.0 shipped. So were a lot of people that jumped head first into the OS X theme world just so they'd have a "usable" GUI.

And it was definitely not something we would want Apple to emulate, because it had more bugs than the state of Minnesota.

The OS did, but the GUI really didn't. Unless you are speaking of slowness. And changing images really doesn't effect the OS that greatly.

I am sure they have a team that checks the GUI for visual quality. That doesn't need to be publicly tested.

I thin, 10.2 - 10.4 was one big GUI test for 10.5 IMHO.

They have also been watching themer trends as well. As I've seen other people's theme ideas pop into the OS.

iTunes's scroll bar isn't original. I've seen themes that had one just like it. (Not that the look is over all original either..)

I love MindFad's mockup pics though. That would be a bad-assed scroll bar.

I like iTunes darker, less glossy scroll thumbs too.

It would suck if Apple was taunting a "unified" theme, while still having 10 million different theme elements that aren't unified within the OS.

I've seen more impressive Linux themes lately than I have anything Apple has come out with.

Until the 10.5 screenshots I've seen. And in them all, the Aqua elements stand out/are out of place.

[CharlesS]

Originally Posted by Kevin 

He may have, but I was not. I was referring to Aqua as a whole. It changed MANY TIMES in a small amount of time.

1.08 years is a small amount of time?

Definitely not in relation to < 1 month.

Hell, let's look at things. Leopard is scheduled to ship in October. It'll probably be close to the end of the month. 10.0 shipped on March 24, 2001, also close to the end of the month. Where was OS X in the first week of March?

Oh yeah, it was in the Final Candidate stages already, with 4K78 (which turned out to be GM!).

And Apple is claiming 10.5 will have aa new GUI. Now they may mean JUST LAYOUT, but I doubt this.

Indeed, and you can see the new GUI in the screenshots on their website:

Apple - Mac OS X Leopard

The OS did, but the GUI really didn't. Unless you are speaking of slowness. And changing images really doesn't effect the OS that greatly.

I am sure they have a team that checks the GUI for visual quality. That doesn't need to be publicly tested.

Well, the Gizmo and Hi-Tech themes got scrapped from OS 8 at the last minute because they were buggy, so I wouldn't be so sure about that.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by CharlesS 

1.08 years is a small amount of time?

Well yes. How many other OSs have GUIs that have changed as much in ONE YEARs time?

Definitely not in relation to < 1 month.

Well there was changes that were made from build to build in the graphics that were only WEEKS apart. I remember installing builds, only to download a new one the next day. And even then the graphics would change and I had to again modify my theme. (Ask swiz about this)

Indeed, and you can see the new GUI in the screenshots on their website:

Apple - Mac OS X Leopard

Sort of..
I remember there being Old OS X screenshots with GUI stuff that didn't make it in the final version of OS X on Apple's site at one time as well.

Well, the Gizmo and Hi-Tech themes got scrapped from OS 8 at the last minute because they were buggy, so I wouldn't be so sure about that.

Buggy? Do you have any documentation on this? Because I've used both themes before for and had no stability problems.

Steve killed off themes because he wanted a consistent look. Steve is sorta has a OCD I think.

But yeah, I used HiTech for a year straight at one point. I loved it. Till I realized just how elegant Platinum was.

Then Aqua had to come and ruin everything.

[Kevin]

As a matter of fact, the themes weren't buggy., just not totally finished by 8.5 I think someone did finish them by 9. Cause the versions I used where complete.

Macintosh, iPod, iPhone, we cover it all!

Tim: I do wish Apple had left in more Themes, though. Adam, you saw some very early builds of 8.5 when they had the other Themes, such as Gizmo and Hi-Tech. How buggy was 8.5 with those features?

Adam: The Themes didn't sacrifice system stability as much as they made the look and feel of the Mac OS less appealing. They were also incomplete, and some features, like the Hi-Tech list view, looked downright ugly.

Tim: Downright ugly? I though Themes were suppose to make the whole look of the Mac OS better, like Kaleidoscope does?

Adam: They do, but the Appearance files themselves (Gizmo and Hi-Tech) were missing many of the standard Mac OS GUI (Graphical User Interface) features that are so evident in the Platinum theme. For example, the gizmo theme never really changed all aspects of the appearance, such as the Trash, or certain system icons. Again, they were incomplete, and would have made Apple look like it was delivering a sub-standard product. Kaleidoscope does a good job of altering the look of the Mac OS, but is far too buggy for my liking. Apple's built-in Appearance manager is much more complete, and will do a much better job once the Hi-Tech and Gizmo appearance files are completed.

The odd thing is, the themes I used WHERE complete. Nothing was missing.

My guess is, they were complete, and Jobs just didn't want them.