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Which threat is/was greater? (Page 2)
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Kevin  (op)
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Mar 19, 2007, 07:43 AM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
It means that you want to compare apples and oranges.
No, the statement you made even goes further to show it's more dangerous. The nazis we can fight. You claim we cannot fight terrorism.
Yes, same here. Even if something did happen back then, I would still be of the same opinion: that you are comparing things that can't be compared.
Well people in the know more than you feel they can. And Do! Very well I might add. Email them and tell them to stop. Ok?

BTW no one dared comment on those articles I posted. Well cept for Karl. And that was just a misguided ad-hominem.
     
subego
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Mar 19, 2007, 07:44 AM
 
Okay. I thought about it.

The answer is still terrorism... or shall we say "Terrorism".

But I think if anything this is due to the particularly "in your face" aspect of Naziism rather than the extreme danger of "Terrorism", not that I'm saying it isn't dangerous.

I mean, you don't really get more "in your face" than Nazis.

If the question were to compare "Terrorism" to Communism, to use another an example of a really frickin' dangerous ideology, even with Communism's weakened state, I don't think the question is that simple.

Likewise, a whole crapload more people bought into WWII than the Cold War.
( Last edited by subego; Mar 19, 2007 at 07:54 AM. Reason: That's Terrorism with a capital "T")
     
OreoCookie
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Mar 19, 2007, 07:52 AM
 
Originally Posted by Kevin View Post
He has been studying this for decades.

But you guys know better.
Proof by intimidation, huh?
I think you are misunderstanding Lewis here. Just read the article you linked to: he always mentions groups: Al Quaeda, Islamic Brotherhood in Egypt, Iran. He's not talking about `terror' per se. You simply misquoted him.
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OreoCookie
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Mar 19, 2007, 07:53 AM
 
Originally Posted by Kevin View Post
No, the statement you made even goes further to show it's more dangerous. The nazis we can fight. You claim we cannot fight terrorism.
Don't twist my words here.
I said we can't fight `Terrorism', but we can and do specific terrorist groups.
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Kevin  (op)
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Mar 19, 2007, 08:14 AM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
Proof by intimidation, huh?
I think you are misunderstanding Lewis here. Just read the article you linked to: he always mentions groups: Al Quaeda, Islamic Brotherhood in Egypt, Iran. He's not talking about `terror' per se. You simply misquoted him.
LOL! He is saying these groups as a whole are more dangerous and a more threat than the nazis.

Again, when I want my car fixed, I take it to mechanics known for knowing what they are doing. That is all I am saying.

The fact you felt that was intimidation...
     
Powerbook
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Mar 19, 2007, 08:14 AM
 
What?! Why does nobody mention Frenchism? It's the biggest thread of all!

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Kevin  (op)
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Mar 19, 2007, 08:14 AM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
Don't twist my words here.
I said we can't fight `Terrorism', but we can and do specific terrorist groups.
Those groups CREATE terrorism. By fighting THEM, you ARE fighting terrorism.

And I wasn't twisting your words.
     
Wiskedjak
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Mar 19, 2007, 08:21 AM
 
Originally Posted by Kevin View Post
LOL! He is saying these groups as a whole are more dangerous and a more threat than the nazis.

Again, when I want my car fixed, I take it to mechanics known for knowing what they are doing. That is all I am saying.

The fact you felt that was intimidation...
So, you weren't really wanting to ask what we thought on the topic, but rather tell us what your mechanic said?

It's funny; I once took my car in to have a rattling sound identified and fixed. One mechanic wanted to fight the carburetor, while the another wanted to fight the muffler ...
     
OreoCookie
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Mar 19, 2007, 09:01 AM
 
Originally Posted by Kevin View Post
LOL! He is saying these groups as a whole are more dangerous and a more threat than the nazis.
Yes, he's saying that those groups are more dangerous, not `Terrorism'.
Originally Posted by Kevin View Post
Again, when I want my car fixed, I take it to mechanics known for knowing what they are doing. That is all I am saying.

The fact you felt that was intimidation...

You were misquoting an expert and then pointing out that he has much more experience in those matters than I do to give your arguments `more weight'.
Originally Posted by Kevin View Post
Those groups CREATE terrorism. By fighting THEM, you ARE fighting terrorism.
No, you're fighting those groups. It's just easier for people who want to see simple problems that they can counteract with simple measures to lump all those different groups together into the group of `Terrorists', even though they don't necessarily have anything to do with each other or even have competing agendas.

Also, these groups don't `create' terrorism, they use terrorism.

So why are you resisting to rephrase your question to something like `Is Al Quaeda/[insert terrorist group of choice] more dangerous than the Nazis?'
( Last edited by OreoCookie; Mar 19, 2007 at 09:29 AM. )
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dcmacdaddy
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Mar 19, 2007, 09:30 AM
 
Originally Posted by Kevin View Post
No, the statement you made even goes further to show it's more dangerous. The nazis we can fight. You claim we cannot fight terrorism.
You can fight the purveyors of terrorism but NOT the ideology. How many times does this have to be said?


So, what particular purveyors of terrorism do you think we should fight? Below is a list of all the groups I know currently employing terrorism as a tactic in their particular conflict. Which group(s) do you think we should fight, in what order should we prioritize them as a threat, and why?


IRA
ETA
FARC
Zapatistas
Chechens
IJ (in Egypt)
Shining Path
Hamas and Hezbollah
Lord's Resistance Army (in Uganda)
Al Qaeda
Posse Comitatus*
World Church of the Creator*
Ku Klux Klan*
Aryan Nations*

*added to the list were some home-grown, American groups practicing terrorism as a tactic.
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ShortcutToMoncton
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Mar 19, 2007, 12:37 PM
 
I think you can fight terrorism, the ideology. vmarks and I have had a brief discussion on this before. The Western world generally tends to reward terrorism; we feel that if people are willing to die for their cause, then it must be legitimate, and we generally give them what they want. It's been a common feature of the Palestinian conflict for years. Terrorists aren't stupid; were we to use instances of terrorism to refuse to deal with a particular cause, they would find alternate methods to their goals which would hopefully not include killing innocent people.

Anyways, that's my loose change. I also envision PMs between marden and Kevin: "hey, you know, I can't go in the Pol Lounge...do you think you can start some threads on a few of my favourite topics? Thanks buddy..."

greg
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dcmacdaddy
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Mar 20, 2007, 12:02 AM
 
Originally Posted by dcmacdaddy View Post
You can fight the purveyors of terrorism but NOT the ideology. How many times does this have to be said?


So, what particular purveyors of terrorism do you think we should fight? Below is a list of all the groups I know currently employing terrorism as a tactic in their particular conflict. Which group(s) do you think we should fight, in what order should we prioritize them as a threat, and why?


IRA
ETA
FARC
Zapatistas
Chechens
IJ (in Egypt)
Shining Path
Hamas and Hezbollah
Lord's Resistance Army (in Uganda)
Al Qaeda
Posse Comitatus*
World Church of the Creator*
Ku Klux Klan*
Aryan Nations*

*added to the list were some home-grown, American groups practicing terrorism as a tactic.
Just adding a bump to this thread as it has been 11.5 hours since I posted this and still no reply from Kevin.

You out there, Kev? Care to offer up your assessment of these various terrorism-using groups and explain which one you think is the biggest threat and why? I think you will say Al Qaeda but I would like to know why you think that is a greater threat to the US than any of the other ones listed? especially some of the home-grown terrorism-using groups already on US soil. Thanks!
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CRASH HARDDRIVE
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Mar 20, 2007, 05:15 AM
 
I dunno, I really hate this false dictum that unless something is in some way comparable to one of The Two or Three Bad Things That Ever Happened In the World™ that it can be dismissed, or shuffled away because the comparisons don’t magically line up.

The REAL world simply doesn’t work that way. Never has, never will.

No one sits around trying to mirror exactly the Nazis, or the Soviets, or Al Queda, or any other group, just to make it easier for people who lack brain power to be able to fathom what is and isn’t a “threat”.

I simply don’t give a good $hit if terrorists, or the threat of terrorism directly correlates to, compares to, or is less or greater than the # 1 item on the list of The Two or Three Bad Things That Ever Happened In the World™ or not.

Terrorism is its own threat that must be dealt with by people that can think beyond the confines of a half hour “Hogan’s Heroes” plotline mentality. Yes, Virginia, more than Two or Three bad things have and can happen in the world- and believe it or not, simultaneously. Life multitasks, even if the “TV-plot generation” doesn’t.
     
Powerbook
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Mar 20, 2007, 06:00 AM
 
Originally Posted by CRASH HARDDRIVE View Post
Terrorism is its own threat that must be dealt with by people that can think beyond the confines of a half hour “Hogan’s Heroes” plotline mentality.
So tell me, old CRASH HARDDRIVE, what should people have done in, say Latin American countries when the CIA supports fascists terror groups which carry out a coup d'état against the elected governments? How should they resist against the terrorists?

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Kevin  (op)
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Mar 20, 2007, 06:16 AM
 
Originally Posted by CRASH HARDDRIVE View Post
I dunno, I really hate this false dictum that unless something is in some way comparable to one of The Two or Three Bad Things That Ever Happened In the World™ that it can be dismissed, or shuffled away because the comparisons don’t magically line up.

The REAL world simply doesn’t work that way. Never has, never will.

No one sits around trying to mirror exactly the Nazis, or the Soviets, or Al Queda, or any other group, just to make it easier for people who lack brain power to be able to fathom what is and isn’t a “threat”.

I simply don’t give a good $hit if terrorists, or the threat of terrorism directly correlates to, compares to, or is less or greater than the # 1 item on the list of The Two or Three Bad Things That Ever Happened In the World™ or not.

Terrorism is its own threat that must be dealt with by people that can think beyond the confines of a half hour “Hogan’s Heroes” plotline mentality. Yes, Virginia, more than Two or Three bad things have and can happen in the world- and believe it or not, simultaneously. Life multitasks, even if the “TV-plot generation” doesn’t.
Exactly. Atleast I am not the only one seeing those that are "spinning"
     
Wiskedjak
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Mar 20, 2007, 08:17 AM
 
Kevin, how does one fight terrorism?
     
dcmacdaddy
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Mar 20, 2007, 08:45 AM
 
Originally Posted by Wiskedjak View Post
Kevin, how does one fight terrorism?
Good question. There are a lot of practical, specific questions that can be asked related to this one primary question.

Setting aside for the moment the debate over whether it is an ideology or a tactic how does one go about fighting it? Do you fight those who engage in terrorism or the countries who support those who engage in terrorism?

And what about the countries that are indifferent to terrorists working in their midst, how do you confront them? Do you treat them the same as terrorists?

And what about the home-grown terrorists here on American soil? The Posse Comitatus group has had a stated public goal of over-throwing the federal government? How should they be dealt with? The same or different than terrorists who are not already living on American soil?

Finally, what about when the United States has been the terrorist, like what Powerbook was alluding to in his post--think of the assassination of Allende or the support of the Sandanista rebels in Nicaragua during the 80s--how do we as a nation make sure we don't act as terrorists when trying to assert our agenda? How do we keep our nation from being seen as terrorists by other nations?
(After all, if the US can claim different groups and/or nations as terrorists or terrorist-supporters it is only normal that foreign groups and/or nations can make the same claim about us.)
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Chuckit
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Mar 20, 2007, 10:11 AM
 
Originally Posted by Kevin View Post
Exactly. Atleast I am not the only one seeing those that are "spinning"
What are you talking about? You were the one who asked people to make the comparison he's objecting to.
Chuck
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ShortcutToMoncton
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Mar 20, 2007, 11:08 AM
 
Originally Posted by Chuckit View Post
What are you talking about? You were the one who asked people to make the comparison he's objecting to.
Ahhhahahaha, I lawled at that one too.

greg
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