[shifuimam]

Originally Posted by subego 

Isn't this just different strokes?

None of those things have any real appeal to me.

To be clear, nothing wrong with those things appealing to you, I'm just not sure I buy the idea Apple's best strategy would be to copy Google.

I agree - it's not that those things are necessary, but I do like having the options. I tend to be more interested in software or hardware that has the options available, rather than something that is locked down, lacks expansion potential, etc.

I have a problem with the lack of something like a microSD slot on iOS devices, too. If I kill my phone (break it, drop it in the toilet, drive over it, etc.), it's very likely that all the data on my microSD card is still okay, and I can just yank the card to get to my photos and files. With an iOS device, you are *completely* screwed.

Originally Posted by OreoCookie 

Catch-up? I seriously don't get that claim. There are certain things like contracts (Windows Phone)/intents (Android) which are not quite there yet in iOS (although you can see that Apple is working on that using XPC), but a lot of catch-up? In what areas is iOS that far behind. And to quote BlackBerry OS which is lagging behind the whole competition?

It's not that BlackBerry OS is even close to offering what Android, iOS, or even WP7 offer. It's that there have been significant updates to functionality and features that are cause for interest in the update. iOS is stale in that each update is no more than an incremental bugfix. There's nothing newsworthy about the updates. It's more just "oh, another feature that other mobile OSes have had for awhile, yay".

The biggest problem with Android is that preciously few people actually get real Android. My brother has a Nexus 7 and is quite happy with it. And a Motorola Razor i has replaced is Windows Phone 7 phone. He hates the Android on that: it's an older version of Android with a custom interface. So fortunately for Apple, most phone and tablet hardware manufacturers cannot resist the urge to customize the interface. And ultimately, they eff it up. Most of them badly.

Much of the time, the custom interface on OEM Android hardware revolves around the launcher more than anything else. It's really easy to get around that - just install a different launcher.

Alternatively, if your phone is easy to flash, you can install a bare ROM and do whatever you want with it. I realize this isn't for everyone, but the option is there.

For most people who want an Android device, they choose it based on the stock launcher - which is why the Galaxy has been so hugely popular. It's kind of funny, because the Galaxy's stock interface is so iPhone like that most users miss out on all the awesome things a launcher can do that iOS can't.

I hear a lot of complaints that iOS has gotten »stale«, but usually that comes from people who were disappointed with the iPhone 4S, because it didn't feature a new exterior. I am perfectly happy with the way the UI looks and feels, I find it easy to use and visually appealing. And since the largest part of the Android market is still running Gingerbread, it's actually the Android ecosystem that is behind. But not because Google hasn't implemented the necessary improvements, but because a significant share of the market is running a two-year old operating system.

And what happens in two years? You're eligible for a new phone. I suspect that this year we will see a big change in the statistics on what version of Android people are running. As their mobile contracts are up for renewal, they'll be getting brand new phones with Jelly Bean, and you'll see fewer and fewer Gingerbread devices in the wild.

My biggest complaint about the Android ecosystem is that is has stopped pushing Apple very hard to improve iOS. The upgrade to iOS 6 was rather unexciting. But I have an inkling that the next big thing for iOS will be how to deal with files, I cannot fit my life into an iOS-like hierarchy of files and folders. I don't see a reason for a complete revamp of the UI, though.

Your comment about files reminded me of a huge feature in other mobile OSes that is still unavailable in iOS without jailbreaking - access to the file system. BlackBerry and Android devices can operate in USB mass storage mode. I doubt iOS will ever offer such a feature, since it would undermine Apple's very profitable iOS/iTunes marriage.

I'm not trying to get into an iOS vs. Android debate as much as I'm trying to point out that a part of why technology is no longer exciting is because of how quickly it's evolved, how many copycats hit the market every day, etc.

I think that part of what made the iPad so successful was the timing of its release. Netbooks were huge when they first came out, because they were portable and very inexpensive compared to laptops - especially since until the netbook, a super lightweight, compact laptop came at a very premium price. The first generation of Atom netbooks were great. I used my Acer netbook constantly. Then the hardware got stale - each new iteration was just a slight bump from the previous generation. We are a society of people who demand entertainment, instant gratification, and constant stimulation. The netbook became a has-been because it had nothing new to offer. The iPad came along and offered something similar - compact, affordable (sort of; moreso with Android tablets) - and new. The multitouch screen was a novelty on a 10" device. I'd argue that right now, tablets are still a novelty, but it's going to wear off soon. They're cool and all, but they're no longer this awesome new technology. Something significant needs to happen in order to keep tablets exciting to the average consumer.

[Hawkeye_a]

@Spheric Harlot

Regarding "multi tasking". Yeah i know of the pseudo multi tasking in iOS, and i do not object to the actual limitation (battery life being the preferred, more valuable resource). I'm hoping Apple doesnt change it. My issue is with the interface.

You say you do not like/want/use that stupid pop-up bar at the bottom, that's cool. I agree it's superfluous. It doesnt accomplish its purpose very well either. IMHO, they should just get rid of it completely.

As you probably know each app's state is frozen with a screenshot of the app. If Apple wanted to deliver "fast app switching" maybe present that saved image to the user instead of just the icon at the bottom? If they wanted to simulate "quitting" they did a terrible job requiring too many steps as well. That too is better implemented on WebOS on my PalmPre2. (Fewer steps, more intuitive and more powerful IMHO).

I do find myself shuffling between apps quite often for various reasons, iOS (on my original iPad and 3GS) bugs me with the "load" times for switching, and some apps like safari start reloading their content which is frustrating.

Another observation of iOS:
Apple got the document model wrong (or at least opposite of what it should have been). On the MacOS, it was all about multiple documents which were not visually tied to an application(except for the menubar). Windows had that weird multi--document thing going on within the frame/window of an open program. Why is it that iOS uses the old Windows model for document switching? (Safari, Numbers, Pages, Keynote)?
Once again, i feel WebOS got it right from the UI perspective.

The stack of cards things is really organic in terms of human-computer-interfaces, imagine a stack with a Pages document, a webpage(instance of a Safari document), maybe Evernote and a picture album, which the user associates with a specific homework assignment. Yet another stack with cards/pages relating to a different task, etc?

Have a look at some YouTube videos demonstrating the UI of WebOS, they really nailed the UI IMHO. (not perfect, there are some definite annoyance such as text selection)

@ShortcutToMoncton
I just realized that Safari on iPhone has the toolbar buttons at the bottom, but on the iPad they're at the top. hmmmm

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

Most of us want to get on with our JOBs, and dealing with computers should be incidental to that, not central.

We're in music, not IT. Or in art history. Or in whatever.

This whole concept is another part of the excitement thing.

I think when us geeks were all new to computers we'd be excited about changing our desktop picture, our icons, playing around with the OS X genie effect, etc. There was a certain excitement over operating systems, and over Apple's plans involving its software and hardware. We were emotionally invested in Apple, defended Apple, evangalized Apple stuff, volunteered more readily to help people with computer issues, etc.

Many of us have matured and have now adopted the attitude you are describing here. I don't know if I speak for everybody, but a part of this attitude is that interest in the above stuff has waned, and replaced with an interest in getting work done, in building things, in making money, and in helping business with more complex workflows rather than just helping your Aunt tinker around with iMovie.

Part of this is a more jaded attitude as well. Products and new technologies rarely live up to their hope and hype, so there is that, but also I thin it is natural to discover that sometimes when you get invested in building stuff and doing actual work you have to leave the Apple bubble from time to time. If you don't, you would certainly be open to doing so if it could make you work better/faster and produce better results. Whatever gets the job done, not "Apple or bust".

I think with this attitude comes with a different sense of loyalty. We are all rooting for Apple to succeed, because when Apple succeeds it helps us succeed, but we are also taking a more self-centered approach. Apple specifically doesn't need to succeed so much as *somebody* needs to succeed to help us succeed, and if it happens to be Apple, great! This loyalty has caveats, and I think as we mature we become better at being able to see the forest for the trees in being able to figure out when one's loyalty is misplaced sooner.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a 

@Spheric Harlot

Regarding "multi tasking". Yeah i know of the pseudo multi tasking in iOS, and i do not object to the actual limitation (battery life being the preferred, more valuable resource). I'm hoping Apple doesnt change it. My issue is with the interface.

You say you do not like/want/use that stupid pop-up bar at the bottom, that's cool. I agree it's superfluous. It doesnt accomplish its purpose very well either. IMHO, they should just get rid of it completely.

As you probably know each app's state is frozen with a screenshot of the app. If Apple wanted to deliver "fast app switching" maybe present that saved image to the user instead of just the icon at the bottom? If they wanted to simulate "quitting" they did a terrible job requiring too many steps as well. That too is better implemented on WebOS on my PalmPre2. (Fewer steps, more intuitive and more powerful IMHO).

I do find myself shuffling between apps quite often for various reasons, iOS (on my original iPad and 3GS) bugs me with the "load" times for switching, and some apps like safari start reloading their content which is frustrating.

Another observation of iOS:
Apple got the document model wrong (or at least opposite of what it should have been). On the MacOS, it was all about multiple documents which were not visually tied to an application(except for the menubar). Windows had that weird multi--document thing going on within the frame/window of an open program. Why is it that iOS uses the old Windows model for document switching? (Safari, Numbers, Pages, Keynote)?
Once again, i feel WebOS got it right from the UI perspective.

The stack of cards things is really organic in terms of human-computer-interfaces, imagine a stack with a Pages document, a webpage(instance of a Safari document), maybe Evernote and a picture album, which the user associates with a specific homework assignment. Yet another stack with cards/pages relating to a different task, etc?

Have a look at some YouTube videos demonstrating the UI of WebOS, they really nailed the UI IMHO. (not perfect, there are some definite annoyance such as text selection)

@ShortcutToMoncton
I just realized that Safari on iPhone has the toolbar buttons at the bottom, but on the iPad they're at the top. hmmmm

Have you looked at how Chrome for iOS handles tabs? Is this the stack of cards sort of thing you are talking about here?

[besson3c]

shifuimam:

I think what you're addressing is an unsustainable byproduct of very young technology in an unusual market where life cycles (of phones/tablets) are extremely short, and business is setup to support this (with expiring phone contracts, etc.).

This boredom factor you speak of is very real, but it has also been a surprise. Normally people resist technological change, but who could have anticipated that there will be a significant population of people that see their phones are fidget toys they widget with when they are bored, and also find themselves bored with widgets that don't offer enough customization to fidget with? Some might argue that some of these customizations are genuinely useful, but to others they are just more stuff to fidget with. I mean, we may *think* that we really need to be able to see the weather in a very particular way on the home screen, but is a couple of extra taps really going to kill us? How many ways does one need to pull up the weather? (This is also not in response to your list of missing iOS features in one of your earlier posts, this is not directed at you)

I think over time people will become bored with the fidgeting or we'll run out of things to fidget with. I don't know exactly what phone interfaces will be like at this point, but I think once we get there the life cycles will start to grow, things will settle down, and this boredom thing won't be a bad thing. Maybe people will also be more interested in purchasing phones outright, and phone subsidies with stipulations will sort of fade?

Apple probably has to do something to freshen up, but I wouldn't say that the technological need is really dire. It's not like iOS is lacking anything incredibly serious or profound.

[besson3c]

I also think that one way to cure this boredom is to really be opportunistic about ceasing business opportunities in this emerging market, and not worrying about catering towards teenage girls and people that want to fuss with their weather widgets. Eventually all mobiles devices will probably be better connected to business, there will be more client apps to business workflows, and the phones that people use will be somewhat influenced by where they work and what software is used there.

[subego]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

Twenty-four virtual cores on the dual-hexacore.

A colleague of mine has a dual quad in his studio, and it's F*CKING FAST (the sixteen virtual cores I was referring to above). Which is to say, he hasn't managed to max it out yet, by a long shot.

What does he use it for?

[subego]

Originally Posted by shifuimam 

I have a problem with the lack of something like a microSD slot on iOS devices, too. If I kill my phone (break it, drop it in the toilet, drive over it, etc.), it's very likely that all the data on my microSD card is still okay, and I can just yank the card to get to my photos and files. With an iOS device, you are *completely* screwed.

Not a reason any more. It backs-up every time you plug it in and it's on your wifi network.

I'm also down with the iOS lack of file system (for the most part) having "external" storage would shoot that to hell.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by shifuimam 

I have a problem with the lack of something like a microSD slot on iOS devices, too. If I kill my phone (break it, drop it in the toilet, drive over it, etc.), it's very likely that all the data on my microSD card is still okay, and I can just yank the card to get to my photos and files. With an iOS device, you are *completely* screwed.

Huh?

You unwrap your shiny new replacement iOS device, enter your Apple ID, and an hour later, the whole thing is perfectly identical to the one you just sunk. Or if you prefer your magical local cloud option, the thing is hooked up to iTunes, restored from a backup (which was created automatically every day by the previous device as it synced via Wi-Fi).

End of story.

What is the problem?

Counter-anecdote: a previous phone of mine that featured a micro-SD (or whatever it was) card slot dropped to the ground after a week, which broke the ****ing stupid slot cover and resulted in a non-functional (well, self-ejecting) card slot that was of no use whatsoever over the entire remaining lifespan of the phone.

I think that part of what made the iPad so successful was the timing of its release. Netbooks were huge when they first came out, because they were portable and very inexpensive compared to laptops - especially since until the netbook, a super lightweight, compact laptop came at a very premium price. The first generation of Atom netbooks were great. I used my Acer netbook constantly. Then the hardware got stale - each new iteration was just a slight bump from the previous generation. We are a society of people who demand entertainment, instant gratification, and constant stimulation. The netbook became a has-been because it had nothing new to offer. The iPad came along and offered something similar - compact, affordable (sort of; moreso with Android tablets) - and new. The multitouch screen was a novelty on a 10" device. I'd argue that right now, tablets are still a novelty, but it's going to wear off soon. They're cool and all, but they're no longer this awesome new technology. Something significant needs to happen in order to keep tablets exciting to the average consumer.

The average consumer doesn't give a shit. What you're talking about isn't going to be an issue until the market sees saturation.

Netbooks failed because they SUCKED. The first time I tried one, I knew it sucked. It was underpowered, the hardware FELT crummy, and the display was way too small for the interface. People were buying them because they were a cheap way to get into the Internet, and that's all people wanted them for.
iPad completely killed off that market, and it will be running off that by continuing to not suck at it for years to come.

The truly exciting things about the iPad and iOS have long since ceased to be the OS, and really, there isn't much they (or anybody else) could do about that. The low-hanging fruit has been picked already. They're working on file system management, as per recent acquisitions, which is good.

No: the REALLY exciting stuff that's happening on iPad is THE APPS. iPhoto shows monstrous potential for the platform. I recently purchased a MIDI controller app where free, downloadable templates make thirty-year-old hardware controllable where up until recently, I would have had to hunt for and buy dedicated long-discontinued hardware controllers to have similar tactile access, with less flexibility, at higher cost PER CONTROLLER than the total cost of the iPad PLUS the app.

My iPad also doubles as a Logic remote when I'm over in the other room recording piano or whatever. Total cost: $4.99, plus the iPhone I already had or the iPad I already had. Logic automatically recognizes TouchOSC as a controller surface.

People like Rheyne Music are using three iPads to control their live performances, and their devices including the apps cost them a fraction of what they would have spent otherwise, or they would have to interact directly with a laptop during performance.

Audiobus allows apps to pass audio amongst themselves, for processing, sampling, or recording, turning virtual instruments and apps on the iPad into a real tool.

These things are *really* exciting. I'm actually really hoping for Apple to include something like that last one at the system level, and give me a free downloadable app as an interface to it.

But this is exactly what I talked about earlier: technology has become so ubiquitous and so user-friendly that we've shifted from becoming excited about technology to becoming excited about what we can DO with it when it gets out of our way.

I used to like playing around with tech. Now, I'll gladly pay extra to have it get the **** out of my way.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by subego 

What does he use it for?

Music.

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

Computing horsepower?

I dunno. Sixteen virtual cores of Xeon certainly are nothing to sneeze at. YMMV.

Which in the real world, with real desktop apps, is slower than an iMac. That's embarrassing.

[Spheric Harlot]

IIRC, he has the 2009 version, which is still quite a bit faster than the high-end iMac, despite having cost not that much more some two and a half years ago.

Either way, though, it's still a hella fast machine. He should probably up the RAM.

[Shaddim]

No it isn't, except in floating point power. The latest Ivy Bridge trashes pre-E5 Xeons in integer operations, cycle per cycle.

[subego]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

Music.

Way different ball game than 4K video.

[shifuimam]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

I also think that one way to cure this boredom is to really be opportunistic about ceasing business opportunities in this emerging market, and not worrying about catering towards teenage girls and people that want to fuss with their weather widgets. Eventually all mobiles devices will probably be better connected to business, there will be more client apps to business workflows, and the phones that people use will be somewhat influenced by where they work and what software is used there.

Better business integration for mobile hardware and software would be pretty damn exciting.

One of the things that kept RIM going in the face of Android and iOS (until very recently) is the fact that the end-to-end solution is so appealing to businesses. You can control absolutely everything on a BlackBerry with incredibly detailed IT policies. You can specify exactly what apps can be run or can't be run, and you can specify what can be done with the apps you allow. You can specify which hardware features are available. You can find out what's on the user's phone and if they're violating any policies or circumventing the security on the device. You can run reports whenever you want to get any information on the device, the user, or the software.

This matters a lot in business. Right now, Android and iOS can't do half the things that BlackBerry OS can do (when paired with BES; obviously this is irrelevant for normal consumers who buy a BB for personal use, but that's not the topic right at the moment). I'd say the enterprise market is pretty ready for a legitimate server/software/hardware solution to replace BlackBerry.

I would have loved to see HP do this with WebOS. I'm disappointed they killed it so quickly after acquiring the rights to it.

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by subego 

There's "power user" and there's "power".

Simplify the interface as much as you want, unless it's pushing uncompressed, 32-bit 4K with a half dozen filters on it in real-time, I don't have enough power.

Power user ≠ users who need power.
I consider myself a power user. I have an intricate work flow involving many apps working in concert. If it weren't for Aperture, my cpu power needs would be modest, to be honest, but I rely on my computer to get work done.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by subego 

Way different ball game than 4K video.

Certainly. Not nearly the fringe case that 4K video is, at the moment. Until component modelling becomes the norm, at which point we'll need WAY more powerful machines than your puny 4K video.

But I'm pretty sure that by the time 4K becomes a real-world issue, Mac Pros will be available to handle it, as well.

[subego]

What I've been trying to tell you is this is a real-world issue now.

The only reason I'm not doing this right now is I haven't been pushing it.

[Spheric Harlot]

4K is a real-world issue right now? Italics?

I'm under the impression that people are only even beginning to look at it, and there's a very small handful of production houses who are only starting to work with it.

And that for those, the biggest issue is bandwidth, rather than processors (Thunderbolt in its current form apparently wouldn't suffice).

I don't work in video though (except on the soundtrack end), so this is second-hand impressions.

Could you/would you be working on 4K video right now if you had a machine capable of it? You have clients who would pay for it?

Regardless, since the release of new Mac Pros should happen some time this year, the processing power at least should not remain a problem for long.

[Phileas]

4K has arrived. We even use it for web video because it allows us to punch in and move within the frame. It gives the editor a bunch of new opportunities to frame a shot after the fact. Most people I know who can afford to are introducing the technology.

As far as phones go, I've switched from my iPhone 5 to a Galaxy Nexus, despite the shitty camera and the lack of iMessage. A well configured Android phone runs circles around an iPhone these days. A custom launcher creates screens that work the way I need them to work, custom icons take care of the fact that stock Android is still butt-ugly.

Here's a screenshot of my start-screen. On the right, my calendar, embedded for instant access to the information I most often need to access. A tap on any date opens the main app for editing. Btw, this is an iCal calendar, not a google app, so it works seamlessly with my Macs and iPad. Underneath a scrollable widget for the people I need to call the most. One tap makes the call.

On the left, folders with apps, on the bottom a dock with the apps I use most often.

Not shown, when swiping right I get presented with two email widgets giving me instant access to my most important email accounts. Swipe left for a to-do list and the weather.



In iOS most of this would be impossible. The difference between Android and iOS is that if you don't like the way something works in iOS you're pretty much screwed. In Android, you simply install an alternative. Don't like the way the dialer looks? Install one of the dozen dialer replacements. Yes, some of them are stupid and buggy, but the reviews take care of that.

And you know what, this isn't hard. Download the app, or launcher, or icon set and enable it. Done. I put my phone together the way I wanted it to work in an hour or so.

There's no doubt that iOS is a great system. It works great right out of the box, but that you have to understand that that is the best it'll ever be. Android out of the box kinda sucks. But the more time you spend with it, the better it gets. It rewards tinkering, whereas iOS hates that kind of behaviour.

As a result I honestly believe that the rate of innovation coming out of Android is outstripping the Apple offering by a factor of much, with no signs of slowing down. Unless the next incarnation of iOS is taking a big leap, my last iPhone will have been my last iPhone.

_-----------------------------------

PS: This only works with the Nexus line of phones. I've got zero interest in manufacturer's skins or carrier add-ons. I want pure Android on an unlocked phone. Everything else doesn't work.

[Hawkeye_a]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Have you looked at how Chrome for iOS handles tabs? Is this the stack of cards sort of thing you are talking about here?

Wow that was a longgg post i wrote.

For those of you who want to know what ive been harping on about, check out this youtube video demonstrating multitasking in webos: Multitasking and stacks in WebOS 2.0 (Youtube)

That video was posted in 2010. Im not a Palm fanboy, the PalmPre2 i own is the only Palm device i have ever owned, and im not trying to push a defunct product. But the OS is a gem IMHO.

Cheers

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by Phileas 

4K has arrived. We even use it for web video because it allows us to punch in and move within the frame. It gives the editor a bunch of new opportunities to frame a shot after the fact. Most people I know who can afford to are introducing the technology.

Okay.

What are you using to edit it?

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a 

Wow that was a longgg post i wrote.

For those of you who want to know what ive been harping on about, check out this youtube video demonstrating multitasking in webos: Multitasking and stacks in WebOS 2.0 (Youtube)

That video was posted in 2010. Im not a Palm fanboy, the PalmPre2 i own is the only Palm device i have ever owned, and im not trying to push a defunct product. But the OS is a gem IMHO.

Cheers

Isn't the inherent weakness in this design that you have to manage your cards/windows, and that this arrangement keeps changing as new apps/cards/windows are open, making muscle memory difficult? This looks like a much better way of handling multiple windows than, say, the tabs implementation in Safari and possibly even anything on iOS, but perhaps that isn't saying much.

I wonder if the optimal implementation is to somehow group apps/windows/cards together by task, and to allow for muscle memory somehow by putting stuff in a consistent location? It seems to me that the problem with random card scatterings is the same problem you'd have if somebody threw 20 playing cards up in the air and you had to find the 4 of clubs quickly.

[freudling]

Originally Posted by Phileas 

4K has arrived. We even use it for web video because it allows us to punch in and move within the frame. It gives the editor a bunch of new opportunities to frame a shot after the fact. Most people I know who can afford to are introducing the technology.

As far as phones go, I've switched from my iPhone 5 to a Galaxy Nexus, despite the shitty camera and the lack of iMessage. A well configured Android phone runs circles around an iPhone these days. A custom launcher creates screens that work the way I need them to work, custom icons take care of the fact that stock Android is still butt-ugly.

Here's a screenshot of my start-screen. On the right, my calendar, embedded for instant access to the information I most often need to access. A tap on any date opens the main app for editing. Btw, this is an iCal calendar, not a google app, so it works seamlessly with my Macs and iPad. Underneath a scrollable widget for the people I need to call the most. One tap makes the call.

On the left, folders with apps, on the bottom a dock with the apps I use most often.

Not shown, when swiping right I get presented with two email widgets giving me instant access to my most important email accounts. Swipe left for a to-do list and the weather.



In iOS most of this would be impossible. The difference between Android and iOS is that if you don't like the way something works in iOS you're pretty much screwed. In Android, you simply install an alternative. Don't like the way the dialer looks? Install one of the dozen dialer replacements. Yes, some of them are stupid and buggy, but the reviews take care of that.

And you know what, this isn't hard. Download the app, or launcher, or icon set and enable it. Done. I put my phone together the way I wanted it to work in an hour or so.

There's no doubt that iOS is a great system. It works great right out of the box, but that you have to understand that that is the best it'll ever be. Android out of the box kinda sucks. But the more time you spend with it, the better it gets. It rewards tinkering, whereas iOS hates that kind of behaviour.

As a result I honestly believe that the rate of innovation coming out of Android is outstripping the Apple offering by a factor of much, with no signs of slowing down. Unless the next incarnation of iOS is taking a big leap, my last iPhone will have been my last iPhone.

_-----------------------------------

PS: This only works with the Nexus line of phones. I've got zero interest in manufacturer's skins or carrier add-ons. I want pure Android on an unlocked phone. Everything else doesn't work.

Too many icons. Looks ugly.

Anyway, technology is as much marketing as it is technology.

Yes, we're all getting old... mobile processors still suck. An iPad that's 5 times faster than last years is still dog slow... just try putting some JS payload on it developing Apps and see how far it gets you.

What is an iPad or iPhone? Big calculators.

But I'm still excited. I saw a Galaxy Note 2 today and it looked really cool.

Apple needs to really step it up. iOS 7 and the iPhone 6 had both better be huge overhauls. If they're not Apple is going to lose. iOS is really getting old and I wasn't saying that up until about a few months ago... it's really starting to look and feel dated... and I've used it for years and years.

I see the Galaxy Note 2 and I'm like... cool! I don't look at my iPhone anymore and have that reaction.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by freudling 

Too many icons. Looks ugly.

Anyway, technology is as much marketing as it is technology.

Yes, we're all getting old... mobile processors still suck. An iPad that's 5 times faster than last years is still dog slow... just try putting some JS payload on it developing Apps and see how far it gets you.

What is an iPad or iPhone? Big calculators.

But I'm still excited. I saw a Galaxy Note 2 today and it looked really cool.

Apple needs to really step it up. iOS 7 and the iPhone 6 had both better be huge overhauls. If they're not Apple is going to lose. iOS is really getting old and I wasn't saying that up until about a few months ago... it's really starting to look and feel dated... and I've used it for years and years.

I see the Galaxy Note 2 and I'm like... cool! I don't look at my iPhone anymore and have that reaction.

Can you please explain how you feel that iOS is "really getting old"? If your list is anything like shifuimam's, there is nothing there that is "really getting old", and certainly nothing that is in any sort of dire condition.

I think you guys are obsessed over these very small snapshots of what will be a very long technological curve.

[subego]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

Okay.

What are you using to edit it?

Everybody has their own workflow, but you don't generally edit in 4K. That requires (ahem) too much power. You downsample and compress it.

Where you do use native 4K is for effects work, which when it comes to post-production, is my thing.

You can get a 4K camera for $15,000. I come from a motion picture background. Back in the day, you'd have to pay that just for film stock.


You asked about my own experience with 4K. I do a spread of visual arts work. Photography, film/video, and lighting. The only reason I'm not doing 4K right now is that's not where I'm doing the hustle.

If a project were to drop in my lap (which they do), and it was longer than a music video, I'd buy new iron the next day. I'd be shooting myself in the foot if I bought two year old gear.

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by shifuimam 

• Customization.
• Widgets.
• Sideloading.

... However, in the six years since its initial release, iOS has fallen behind pretty seriously as Android has advanced and offered more and more new features.

Your list doesn't jive with that claim: I can appreciate the fact that you can customize Android to your heart's content, and I think it's good that this option is out there for people like you who feel constrained by iOS.

But that doesn't mean »Apple/iOS has fallen behind,« that's something that has got to do with features of the OS rather than the concept of the ecosystem (walled garden vs. »open«).

Originally Posted by shifuimam 

Android is open whereas iOS is closed - and closing more with every release.

How is iOS becoming more and more closed with each release? iOS 1 (iPhone OS back then) was completely closed and then the app store came. With later releases, companies were giving more and more opportunities to deploy apps that were not in the app store. I get that Android is more customizable than iOS, I'm not arguing this point, but I don't see how the iOS ecosystem getting more and more closed.

Also, the »Android is open« argument is BS to me. Certainly, it's much more customizable if you know what a ROM is (hint: most people don't) so that you're not at the mercy of the manufacturer and your carrier. Android is open to manufacturers and carriers (whose interests are very different from those of the users), but it's not open to users. Most people don't get regular and timely upgrades to the latest version of Android (which is a big problem if you want to use features of the latest Android OS release as a developer).

To me, the strongest counterargument to the claim »iOS is falling behind« is simple: name me one killer app that was an Android-first. Something like Instagram, DJay, Fantastical or OmniFocus. The usefulness of an Ecosystem is chiefly determined by the apps you can develop on it.

And this is where Apple has its work cut out for it: it needs to figure out how to safely and conveniently move files between apps, and how to store massive amounts of data. As I mentioned, this is where Windows Phone, for instance, has a leg up. This is a point where iOS is really behind. But Apple is »lucky«: Windows Phone has no traction on the market place and Android lacks these first-class, highly innovative apps, so there is less pressure from the market place.

Originally Posted by shifuimam 

That's okay for technophobes who don't give a crap, but a lot of people in the younger generation expect more out of their products. They want to have control over everything if they're going to drop $200 on a new phone.

I don't think it's accurate to bill these people as technophobes. I don't think I'm a technophobe, because I prefer printers to simply show up when I plug them into my Mac rather than having to edit cupsd.conf. I know how to do the latter, but I don't want to deal with such menial tasks. And in the future, people will simply find it convenient to not have to deal with things that are normal these days. It's a good day when people don't know what a virus scanner is. Or a firewall.

I think you're right in that there is a market for Android devices because the latter are configurable, but that's a tiny, tiny sliver of it. Most people don't consciously choose Android phones, but that's what they can afford or what's pushed onto them by the salesman in their carrier's store. Or it's what they get if they don't really care about getting a smart or a dumb phone.

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Can you please explain how you feel that iOS is "really getting old"? If your list is anything like shifuimam's, there is nothing there that is "really getting old", and certainly nothing that is in any sort of dire condition.

I also think technology has nothing to do with looks: I don't think looks have to change for change's sake. Like Apple having to change the looks of the latest iPhone (I remember the »disappointment« surrounding the release of the 4S, something that is actually a boon to developers of accessories). Similarly, if Apple should decide to overhaul the interface of iOS, I think there should be a good reason, e. g. to overcome certain limitations -- and I don't think change for change's sake is a good reason.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie 

I think you're right in that there is a market for Android devices because the latter are configurable, but that's a tiny, tiny sliver of it. Most people don't consciously choose Android phones, but that's what they can afford or what's pushed onto them by the salesman in their carrier's store. Or it's what they get if they don't really care about getting a smart or a dumb phone.

This is a great point.

There might be some people that justify getting themselves an Android because they have heard that it is more configurable, but the population of users really taking advantage of this is a tiny sliver of the overall market, like Oreo said, since most people that buy Androids are probably not hackers or customizing geeks, but people that simply want an inexpensive smartphone. Even though you can get a free iPhone 4 with a contract, knowing that you can get something that is supposedly new is attractive, as we are all conditioned to not start off behind the technological curve with a new tech purchase.

[freudling]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Can you please explain how you feel that iOS is "really getting old"? If your list is anything like shifuimam's, there is nothing there that is "really getting old", and certainly nothing that is in any sort of dire condition.

I think you guys are obsessed over these very small snapshots of what will be a very long technological curve.

No way, it's bess!

It's the design and userflows. Both of which define the user experience and software as a whole. After 5 years and barely any change, it's:

1. Getting boring.
2. Some userflows are convoluted and UIs dated based on the existence of multi-touch gestures.

On point 2... Do we really have to dig so deep into the bleeding mess that is the Settings to change certain things? Music settings? Brightness? Bluetooth? The famous General settings... So many Apps in there. It's just a dumping ground for everything.

Then inside Apps like iBooks: useless UI... no metadata shows under books and the wood shelving is obtuse...

Apple could do some things to bring the iOS up-to-date like a gesture to reveal a layered UI like in Facebook. This behind layer could reveal some quick settings like bluetooth, rotation lock, etc.

Where's widgets? Having a multi-screen set of widgets could be cool. They could put the search field in the layered UI and reserve the left-most screen for widgets.

What about better multi-tasking? It sucks on the iPhone and it's terrible on the iPad. Solution? Not sure, other than to get rid of the home button and simplify things.

Notifications? I never use that stupid slide down notification shade. Not sure about everyone else, I just find it useless.

I could go on and on. These are just ideas... the reality is you can't sit on something forever. There's lots of room to improve iOS and a design refresh to make it look more modern and bring its colours more into what they're doing with things like the new App Store, etc. will cure the boredom and polish iOS. With userflow and UI updates, it'll round out the efforts.

Do the major refresh and plunk it on a new, redesigned iPhone 6 and iPad 5 all of which are thinner, lighter, sleeker, and faster... and we're in record quarters for the foreseeable future.

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by shifuimam 

And what happens in two years? You're eligible for a new phone. I suspect that this year we will see a big change in the statistics on what version of Android people are running. As their mobile contracts are up for renewal, they'll be getting brand new phones with Jelly Bean, and you'll see fewer and fewer Gingerbread devices in the wild.

Most Android phones you can buy these days do not use the latest version of Android, most phones are lagging behind the latest and greatest Google has to offer. That still means app developers have to target two-year-old operating systems whereas iPhone and iPad users rapidly adopt the latest version of iOS. This is a huge advantage, because developers cannot use modern features of Android. This is really a pity, because the best thing that can happen to users is if hard competition forces Apple and Google/Samsung to bring it on.

Originally Posted by shifuimam 

Your comment about files reminded me of a huge feature in other mobile OSes that is still unavailable in iOS without jailbreaking - access to the file system. BlackBerry and Android devices can operate in USB mass storage mode. I doubt iOS will ever offer such a feature, since it would undermine Apple's very profitable iOS/iTunes marriage.

I don't think this has anything to do with iTunes, but how Apple sees the future of computing. They believe that file management the way you do it now on a regular computer is a thing of the past. Whether they are correct remains to be seen, of course, but this is not an oversight or a feature they haven't come around to implement. It is something Apple consciously chose not to implement.

That's why I have Dropbox installed on my iPhone.

[Phileas]

All of the criticism against Android is valid - it's true that most people never scratch the surface of what the OS is capable of. That, in return, is google's own fault and I think they've come to that realization themselves as suggested by recent changes.

[shifuimam]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie 

Most Android phones you can buy these days do not use the latest version of Android, most phones are lagging behind the latest and greatest Google has to offer. That still means app developers have to target two-year-old operating systems whereas iPhone and iPad users rapidly adopt the latest version of iOS. This is a huge advantage, because developers cannot use modern features of Android. This is really a pity, because the best thing that can happen to users is if hard competition forces Apple and Google/Samsung to bring it on.

I think that's a stretch. I took a quick look at Verizon's Android phones, and nearly all of them except for the very old HTC Rhyme come with Jelly Bean or ICS. Some that come with ICS have an OTA update to Jelly Bean available. All the current-generation hardware, that is the stuff that has the newest components, come with JB or ICS+JB OTA. So yes, I do think that the number of GB users are going to dwindle fairly quickly as people start getting their first replacement Android devices.

I can't speak to whether or not there are features of ICS/JB that are so critical that devs are stuck writing shitty software just to be GB compatible. I haven't done a single line of Android programming.

I don't think this has anything to do with iTunes, but how Apple sees the future of computing. They believe that file management the way you do it now on a regular computer is a thing of the past. Whether they are correct remains to be seen, of course, but this is not an oversight or a feature they haven't come around to implement. It is something Apple consciously chose not to implement.

That's why I have Dropbox installed on my iPhone.

I wouldn't say it doesn't have anything to do with it.

iTunes is a cash cow for Apple. The reason the company is so successful right now, and the reason why they are moving focus away from traditional computer hardware onto mobile devices, isn't just because it's the hip thing to do or they have a magic crystal ball telling them that it's the best five-year plan.

iOS and iTunes are irrevocably linked. When a customer buys an iOS device, Apple is almost 100% guaranteed that customer will be buying iTunes content, because it's the only way to (legally) get apps onto the device (enterprise environments notwithstanding; we're talking about normal end-user consumers now). Apple makes money off every sale of an app in the App Store - 30%. That's only thirty cents for a $1 app, but that adds up fast when the customer starts buying $1 apps here and there and here again.

The very closed iOS/iTunes ecosystem has absolutely been the driving force behind why Apple has quickly risen up Fortune's list of most profitable companies. Apple would be insane to do anything to threaten that marriage. It's guaranteed money for them, even years after someone buys an iOS device.

[OreoCookie]

Personally, I think the existence of Android was a good thing overall, it really pushed Apple to iterate rapidly and make quite a few concessions (e. g. free upgrades for major OS releases). So the best thing that can happen to Apple is strong competition. And vice versa, of course.

I would really like to see a strong Android-presence where Google can play on its strength full force. Right now, they are hampered by a number of factors (as explained above), and I hope they can fix this.

[freudling]

The look of Android has come a long way. Looks pretty nice on the Galaxy Note 2. I think people mistake crappy Android Apps with Android as an OS now.

I still prefer iOS but overall Android has made some strides. Key Lime, that's set to launch this year, is a major upgrade and it looks really good. Apple needs to step it up because after seeing Key Lime, iOS looks like its red headed step child.

But you know what? I'm not worried because I know iOS 7 will be a major revamp.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by freudling 

The look of Android has come a long way. Looks pretty nice on the Galaxy Note 2. I think people mistake crappy Android Apps with Android as an OS now.

I still prefer iOS but overall Android has made some strides. Key Lime, that's set to launch this year, is a major upgrade and it looks really good. Apple needs to step it up because after seeing Key Lime, iOS looks like its red headed step child.

But you know what? I'm not worried because I know iOS 7 will be a major revamp.

What's to worry about anyway?

[freudling]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

What's to worry about anyway?

Hmmm... what's to worry about? Another John Sculley era...

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by freudling 

Hmmm... what's to worry about? Another John Sculley era...

I think you're overreacting.

Young hipster types and geeks like us that want more customization were never Apple's bread and butter, nor will they ever be, nor will they be/are for Google/Samsung/Microsoft either.

Apple doesn't need to make iOS less boring to appease said geeks and hipsters, it needs to innovate and find new opportunities in business to continue to appeal to the higher end of the market, or lower their prices if they are interested in accommodating the lower end of the market. More customizations are not some great innovation to herald or some thing to create consternation or worry, it is an extremely minor factor.

The vast majority of people that get Android phones don't get them because some hipster magazine or website recommended the device because of all of the customization potential, they get them because they work okay, and the price is attractive. This model always "wins" in terms of raw marketshare, this is no surprise.

I think what is happening with this thread is what always happens, people speak past each other because one side is addressing the market as a whole, and the other side addressing their specific demographic.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by shifuimam 

I think that's a stretch. I took a quick look at Verizon's Android phones, and nearly all of them except for the very old HTC Rhyme come with Jelly Bean or ICS. Some that come with ICS have an OTA update to Jelly Bean available. All the current-generation hardware, that is the stuff that has the newest components, come with JB or ICS+JB OTA. So yes, I do think that the number of GB users are going to dwindle fairly quickly as people start getting their first replacement Android devices.

What matters is deployed user base, not percentage of current sales (and even so, talking about "current-generation hardware" neatly skirts the reality that the vast majority of Android devices currently on sale are NOT "current-generation hardware").

Even if 100% of new devices came with a current OS, the fact is that the vast majority of devices will be running an outdated OS forever, because those updates simply aren't ever made available.

On iOS, as of today, 83% of all iOS web traffic comes from iOS 6 users.
Chitika Report Shows Strong iOS 6 Adoption Across North America | Mobile Marketing Watch
That's what, four months after release?
THAT is a target developers can code for. They might want to check for compatibility with one previous version, but even if they only have the resources to support a SINGLE OS VERSION, they have the lion's share (and increasing) of the market covered.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by freudling 

Hmmm... what's to worry about? Another John Sculley era...

The Sculley era was when Apple listened to every whim and fad the would-be customers and competitors farted into the wind. Massive list of options, configurability, customizable everything.

Under Steve, the Mac was supposed to be a completely closed, unexpandable appliance. The Mac SE, the first Mac with expansion slots, was released well after he'd been ousted.
The first thing he did when he returned was destroy nearly all options and focus mostly on getting the narrowly locked-in default right.
Apple defined the experience as entirely as possible, and that meant eliminating any variation beyond what they themselves deemed an enhancement.

Still do.

I understand most of what people are asking for, but Apple did extremely well mostly by ignoring what any self-proclaimed pundits asked for, and above all, by being *extremely* cautious with offering options and customizability.

People who need these things need not look to Apple to provide them.

[mattyb]

Just to add an interesting anecdote, in terms of switchers, I now know people who are going from iOS to Android, whereas before it was the other way.

[Phileas]

If the next incarnation of iOS does what I need it to do, I'll switch back in a heartbeat. I much prefer Apple's hardware over LG's offering.

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by mattyb 

Just to add an interesting anecdote, in terms of switchers, I now know people who are going from iOS to Android, whereas before it was the other way.

Not surprising. Although the experience isn't as polished, the lower cost of entry is attractive.

[freudling]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

I think you're overreacting.

Young hipster types and geeks like us that want more customization were never Apple's bread and butter, nor will they ever be, nor will they be/are for Google/Samsung/Microsoft either.

Apple doesn't need to make iOS less boring to appease said geeks and hipsters, it needs to innovate and find new opportunities in business to continue to appeal to the higher end of the market, or lower their prices if they are interested in accommodating the lower end of the market. More customizations are not some great innovation to herald or some thing to create consternation or worry, it is an extremely minor factor.

The vast majority of people that get Android phones don't get them because some hipster magazine or website recommended the device because of all of the customization potential, they get them because they work okay, and the price is attractive. This model always "wins" in terms of raw marketshare, this is no surprise.

I think what is happening with this thread is what always happens, people speak past each other because one side is addressing the market as a whole, and the other side addressing their specific demographic.

You took "boring" and completely went nuts. The main issues with iOS... I've described above. It's nothing to do with boring or hipsters and everything to do with efficiency and taking advantage of multi-touch gestures... and a more modern design language and userflows. If it were up to you, would iOS never change, ever?

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by freudling 

You took "boring" and completely went nuts. The main issues with iOS... I've described above. It's nothing to do with boring or hipsters and everything to do with efficiency and taking advantage of multi-touch gestures... and a more modern design language and userflows. If it were up to you, would iOS never change, ever?

Can you provide some examples?

[Waragainstsleep]

Its a fine line between changing for progress and changing for the sake of change.

[freudling]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Can you provide some examples?

I already did.

Here's another: why are so many people flocking to Mailbox, the new Email App for the iPhone? Turns out it does some subtle things with gestures very well.

Video of these gestures and the UI interactions in action:

Mailbox - Put Email In Its Place

The user is accomplishing a lot without having to leave a main screen by gesturing in different directions... Apple's Mail App doesn't do anything of the sort. It's very basic and limited in comparison. It actually looks archaic in comparison. Apple could infuse a few useful features and make things easier to do by redesigning things based on new gesture actions. This is what defines mobile interfaces today more than anything because a core set of gestures that more and more App developers are using, including us, abstract away UI elements. For instance, you don't need a static button for a reminder. Just gesture over an Email. The interaction is better from a Fitt's principle perspective and the feedback instant.

The whole point is that once you start tapping into Apple's latest gestures in iOS, you can abstract away and layer the user interfaces more. When they first made iOS, a chunk of gestures were not implemented and the concept of UI layering wasn't around. The iPhone Facebook example is a great example... they sort of pioneered it. There's open source stuff for it in Github now...

Inkling is another good example of an App that uses subtle gestures to reveal hidden UI elements.

iOS does nothing of the sort. Neither do several of Apple's Apps. iOS is looking and feeling dated next to some new Apps where developers have learned and are offering much more innovative, evolved experiences compared to Apple. Apple should be the one leading here.

When I look at Apple's Settings pane, it looks exactly like their Mail App. That speaks volumes: both are totally different. Apple needs to simplify the settings pane because it's one long bloody scroll of a mess. And the more Apps I add to my phone, the longer than settings pane gets.

Another example: pull down on the homescreen to reveal a search field, and leave the far left screen as a widget area. I mean, you can sit around and pen so many ideas because things have evolved so much in the App space. Apple hasn't kept up. And don't get me started on their bloody tiny hit areas in their iPad clock App, the little calendar-like entries that populate the week view everytime a new alarm is entered. Sometimes I think Apple's App designers are all over the map.

Anyway, Apple did an amazing job with iOS in the beginning... but it needs to evolve in this way.

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by shifuimam 

I think that's a stretch. I took a quick look at Verizon's Android phones, and nearly all of them except for the very old HTC Rhyme come with Jelly Bean or ICS. Some that come with ICS have an OTA update to Jelly Bean available. All the current-generation hardware, that is the stuff that has the newest components, come with JB or ICS+JB OTA. So yes, I do think that the number of GB users are going to dwindle fairly quickly as people start getting their first replacement Android devices.

But how is that going to change anything? Unless the update politics of the phone manufacturers and carriers will change, Android will still use old versions of the OS for the large part. So yes, at one point developers will be able to target ICS and up, but then newer versions of Android will be available.

Originally Posted by shifuimam 

Apple makes money off every sale of an app in the App Store - 30%. That's only thirty cents for a $1 app, but that adds up fast when the customer starts buying $1 apps here and there and here again.

The 30 % that Apple takes are contributing to their revenues. From what I have gathered, the profit margin for the app store is in the single-digit range. In all of its existence, Apple has paid out $8 billion to developers, i. e. it has made $3.4 billion. Even all of that were profits, this is a tiny number. I don't think Apple cares about these profits, just the existence of the app store drives the popularity of iOS devices. This is what Apple is after. I don't think they care about profits from the iTunes store (all they do is to make sure it doesn't generate a net loss).

Originally Posted by shifuimam 

The very closed iOS/iTunes ecosystem has absolutely been the driving force behind why Apple has quickly risen up Fortune's list of most profitable companies. Apple would be insane to do anything to threaten that marriage. It's guaranteed money for them, even years after someone buys an iOS device.

I agree, that's part of their secret to success. (Just compare in how many different countries amazon, Google and Apple sell music, apps and movies.)

However, I don't think that's the reason why Apple is moving away from manual file management.

[Stogieman]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie 

The 30 % that Apple takes are contributing to their revenues. From what I have gathered, the profit margin for the app store is in the single-digit range. In all of its existence, Apple has paid out $8 billion to developers, i. e. it has made $3.4 billion. Even all of that were profits, this is a tiny number. I don't think Apple cares about these profits, just the existence of the app store drives the popularity of iOS devices. This is what Apple is after. I don't think they care about profits from the iTunes store (all they do is to make sure it doesn't generate a net loss).

I know you were specifically talking about the App Store but the whole iTunes ecosystem generates huge profits for Apple.

Report: Apple's iTunes business second only to Samsung

Asymco's Horace Dediu points out that Apple's iTunes business -- all by itself -- is a monster corporation. It has an estimated gross margin of around 15 percent, is steadily growing over 30 percent per year and may become Apple's third-largest "leg of the stool," passing the Mac business at some point this year.

Across 2012, the iTunes "business" had $13.5 billion in revenue and around $2 billion in likely profit (Apple doesn't disclose exact figures). This is more than twice as much as Apple makes from its iPod hardware sales.

It has been previously noted that Apple's iTunes category alone is more than $1 billion (in revenue) bigger than Microsoft's Entertainment and Devices (Xbox, Windows Phone) division, and its revenues are roughly equal to each of Microsoft's Windows or Business (which includes Office, Exchange and Sharepoint) divisions.

[shifuimam]

Yeah I should have clarified - I wasn't just referring to apps. Music, movies, books, TV shows, and any other content on iTunes are enormous money makers for Apple. Apps are just one part of it.