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Protests Trump likes and doesn't like (Page 2)
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The Final Dakar  (op)
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Sep 29, 2017, 03:35 PM
 
Favorability is not ratings.

I appreciate the response thought.
     
subego
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Sep 30, 2017, 02:17 AM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
And his thin skin seems all the thinner when the person making the critique is of color. Merck's CEO left one of his council's over his Charlottesville response and got blasted on twitter. A lot of other's left the council but no one else got the same personalized thrashing.
The Merck CEO quit on Twitter.
     
Waragainstsleep
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Sep 30, 2017, 09:17 AM
 
Originally Posted by Snow-i View Post
Case in point. Different demographics express differently in sociological distributions. We have no trouble acknowledging that in the NFL to explain the race gap, but are not willing to do the same for the gender gap in STEM?
If black people were (are) more likely to grow up in poorer neighbourhoods, then many will have been encouraged more than affluent white kids that sports scholarships are their tickets out. Their whole family's ticket out. This is something that could be skewing the percentages as well. In Soccer, the split between races and nationalities has increasingly shifted towards players of African or South American origin. The same argument applies that they have a greater financial incentive to escape poverty than kids who live comfortably with full bellies and Playstations at their disposal for their entire childhoods.

Originally Posted by Snow-i View Post
The problem is that their approach to "equality on paper" does not translate to equality in practice.
Like I say, they can't change all of society including parenting styles even as powerful as they are. They can only try to control their own part of the flawed system. Thats what they are doing.

Originally Posted by Snow-i View Post
I object that you describe the memo as sexist.
Its been a while since I read it. Isn't it sexist? It creates a more hostile and toxic environment for women who are already a minority that have to put up with shit that guy has no clue about. I call that sexist.

Originally Posted by Snow-i View Post
Only for people on the left, apparently. Even if that means ascribing to ideology over empirical data.
If not being allowed to be an asshole to your co-workers constitutes an unpleasant workplace for you, I have little sympathy.

Originally Posted by Snow-i View Post
Even those with differing viewpoints? I think we can safely say this is not the case.
Different but not equal. If you are for inequality, your opinion doesn't deserve equality with those who are against it.


Originally Posted by Snow-i View Post
Again, apply this line of thinking to the NFL's race gap. It doesn't work.
As a rule, there aren't as many douchebags sending memos about how they don't like black players being on their teams. The owners are happy as long as they are making money and everyone else has to fall in line, including racists. Its a mostly good conclusion reached via less than ideal thinking but its a mostly good conclusion and people are mostly used to it. This is the way of things. In the 50s, memo-douche was 90% of male office workers. Now he's 5% and in another twenty years he'll be an endangered species if he isn't extinct, but you have to make the environment inhospitable to bad ideas to get rid of bad ideas.

Originally Posted by Snow-i View Post
I think it's absolutely insane. We should be celebrating our differences, not pretending they don't exist and censoring all indications of them.
Differences yes, but privileges not so much.

Originally Posted by Snow-i View Post
I would say they probably do. Is that a bad thing?
It is as long as you end up in an office with a guy telling you you're shit at your job because you're a girl. Even if the current distribution is where it should be, people still deserve to be treated with equal respect.

Originally Posted by Snow-i View Post
I agree with your assessment here, and only urge that society does more empirical research so that we're not basing policy on supposition and conjecture.
To do that research you need a control. The control in this case is a social environment from birth without gender bias so you can see where the natural distributions of various abilities and preferences fall. Since this is what people are asking for anyway, people on opposing sides can pick their reasoning I guess, you're goal is the same. At least for now.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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Oct 1, 2017, 09:28 PM
 
Originally Posted by Snow-i View Post
You ignored my question in the first place
Where was the question I missed?
Originally Posted by Snow-i View Post
This has nothing to do with free speech. No one is saying the NFL players don't have a right to say what they're saying. The discussion is around whether or not it's appropriate and what the consequences of that speech in their workplace should be.
There's not even a question mark.

Originally Posted by Snow-i View Post
So would you support the NFL if they started firing players for kneeling?
If they contractually can, that's their right. I don't have to like it, though.

Originally Posted by Snow-i View Post
In a manner, yes. "Popular or unpopular" with whom?
General consensus.

Originally Posted by Snow-i View Post
Companies should treat their employees the same regardless of their political views.
Easier said than done. Saying "The government needs to improve education!" just isn't the same as going "We never should have enacted the 13th amendment!" both in terms on consensus and impact.
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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Oct 1, 2017, 09:30 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
*snip*
Just want to say, really good post.

In particular:
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
Regarding whether the NFL should institute race quotas similar to many companies' reactions to the gender gap - I'd wager that in sports, you have really good stats. Like reeeeally good. You have every player's every move on camera. You know their 40 time, their rushing yards, their tackles, assists, and more. Though there are soft skills and internal politics involved, the hiring, promotion, and retention process ends up being extremely quantitative and objective. You make plays, you get paid.

High-level white collar work is a bit different. Performance measures aren't so objective. AFAIK there's no standardized coding speed test that programmers take to measure themselves. Soft skills matter more, and the hiring/firing process is much more subjective. Men and women in tech and in leadership positions are treated differently. The hiring and promotion processes are not fair and unbiased. We've been socialized with a lot of perceptions about gender, and those perceptions creep in whether we want them to or not.
Never would have occurred to me.
     
Chongo
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Oct 1, 2017, 10:51 PM
 
What gets me is that many in the media that are praising this “kneeling protest” are the same ones that mocked Tebow for kneeling in prayer after a big play. There are high school coaches that have been fired for kneeling in prayer with their players.
( Last edited by Chongo; Oct 2, 2017 at 08:36 AM. )
45/47
     
subego
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Oct 1, 2017, 11:15 PM
 
The problem with Tebow is he expressed his humility by going "wait, everybody stop... I've got to be humble now. Here I am being humble. Humble. Humble. Humble. I was just humble there, did everybody see it?"

God don't play that.
     
Doc HM
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Oct 2, 2017, 03:45 AM
 
That seems like a reputable source. No actual poll data (size, demographics, who polled etc a, an entirely random "news" page.

Unconvincing.
This space for Hire! Reasonable rates. Reach an audience of literally dozens!
     
Paco500
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Oct 2, 2017, 03:56 AM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
There are coaches that have been fired for kneeling in prayer with their players.
Not saying this isn't true as it's hard to prove a negative, but I've done some searching and although I've seen lots of articles where conservative pundits have used the same line as you, the only thing I found is a high school (not NFL) coach in Washington State who was suspended (not fired) for kneeling to pray at the 50 yard line at the end of games.

There have been reports of high school football player being dropped from teams for kneeling during the anthem, so it would seem there is complete parity here.

Are the any actual NFL coaches who have been fired for kneeling in prayer with their players, or was that just a red-herring?
     
Waragainstsleep
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Oct 2, 2017, 06:20 AM
 
Originally Posted by Doc HM View Post
That seems like a reputable source. No actual poll data (size, demographics, who polled etc a, an entirely random "news" page.

Unconvincing.
He doesn't really do reputable sources. That "aerial footage" of the empty stadium looks like it was lifted from Google Earth or Apple Maps. Epic fail.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
Chongo
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Oct 2, 2017, 09:03 AM
 
Originally Posted by Paco500 View Post
Not saying this isn't true as it's hard to prove a negative, but I've done some searching and although I've seen lots of articles where conservative pundits have used the same line as you, the only thing I found is a high school (not NFL) coach in Washington State who was suspended (not fired) for kneeling to pray at the 50 yard line at the end of games.

There have been reports of high school football player being dropped from teams for kneeling during the anthem, so it would seem there is complete parity here.

Are the any actual NFL coaches who have been fired for kneeling in prayer with their players, or was that just a red-herring?
Sorry, I did not specify that they were HS coaches.
The coach in Washington was fired. A basketball coach in NM was suspended. There were two coached here in AZ that were fired as well. Tom Brittain was at Tempe Prep, but has since been hired by St. Mary’s HS
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/washing...gainst-school/
45/47
     
Laminar
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Oct 2, 2017, 12:20 PM
 
Originally Posted by Snow-i View Post
Google Memo Guy was protesting directly against his employer, Google's, policies.
Since a race gap exists in the NFL, so are those kneeling for the flag.
You're suggesting that the NFL players kneeling during the anthem are protesting the race gap in the NFL? I haven't seen anything suggesting such.

So what you're intimating here is that the race gap is not actually rooted in racism, but perhaps preferential, biological, and/or cultural differences among the demographics?

What a novel concept.
Of course! The gender gap among some careers is as well, obviously!

How is it that company performance isn't an extremely objective measure?
I never said a single word about company performance, nor is it in the least bit relevant to the point I was making. I was talking about personal performance.

No but there is this thing called success in the marketplace that generally is a pretty good indicator of a group's collective abilities.
Marketplace success is attributable to myriad factors and trying to correlate a specific policy with financial success seems...inadvisable.

I feel like there's an attempt here and now to socialize a perception that the gender gap is attributable strictly to discrimination,
"Here and now" meaning in 2017, or "here and now" meaning in this post? You won't see me make ridiculous claims like that.

where the race gap in the NFL, since it can be explained objectively by statistics, is not. If only some guy would write a memo about how we ought to try to discover objective standards for explaining the gender gap. It works for explaining the race gap in the NFL, why wouldn't it work here?
I already explained why high-level white collar work can't be objectively measured. Do you do white collar work? Have you been through a performance review before?

This article only demonstrates the gender gap, and uses supposition to conclude it's attributable strictly to discrimination.

et. al
My only point in linking those articles was to demonstrate that women have different experiences than men. I wasn't trying to say how, why, or by what exact percentage, which leads into the next point...

I feel like "encouraging" is a euphemism for something, so I'd really like to understand what is meant by "encouragement" before I can be anything but incredulous about it.
I put "encouraging" in scare quotes because you did. I don't believe in 50/50 quotas, or quotas at all. I do believe that women are subject to a lot of negative messages in regards to their skills, abilities, and qualities and their applicability to the workplace.



It doesn't matter if women on average are better suited to be a preschool teacher than a mathematician or CEO. Trying to prove that isn't going to accomplish anything. There exist women that would be good at that job, so let's remove the unhelpful socially-constructed barriers to her getting that job. Some people believe it's important for young women to have female role models in those positions, and I believe that's often used as a reason to support quotas. I don't know if I'm totally on board with that. But I will acknowledge that I can't directly empathize with a lack of role models. I see people "like me" in any profession and position I would want. It's easy to visualize myself there. I imagine it would be very different for women and people that aren't white.

Well, in two cases "decades ago, before STEM was in it's infancy".
Science, technology, engineering, and math have only existed for less than 20 years?

It seems like you're trying to make a big deal about the articles being from some time ago, but you're missing the point. It's an example of a time when people said, "We hire the best people for the job" but didn't actually hire the best people for the job. So from that we can surmise that someone saying "We hire the best people for the job" isn't proof that they're hiring the best people for the job.

Is she discounted, or is the fact that 9/10 people applying are male due to a lack of female applicants/preference and the odds are now 1/10 that's she's objectively the best person for the job?
Are 9/10 applicants for the job men because nine female high school students were steered toward nursing instead of getting their MD? Or pointed to elementary education when their Calc II class didn't go well? Or left the workforce to take care of her young children because today's climate gives her husband a better chance at high level promotions, so it'd be more detrimental for him to leave the workforce?

You're asking me for answers, and I have few. I have mostly questions - questions for people that believe they have all of the answers to complex questions that we don't actually have any real answers to. People that express certainty, but certainty that's often rooted in their upbringing or political affiliation more than sound data.
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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Oct 2, 2017, 12:29 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
What gets me is that many in the media that are praising this “kneeling protest” are the same ones that mocked Tebow for kneeling in prayer after a big play. There are high school coaches that have been fired for kneeling in prayer with their players.
I just, are you confused as to the difference? Or laws regarding prayer and schools?
     
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Oct 2, 2017, 01:03 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
You're suggesting that the NFL players kneeling during the anthem are protesting the race gap in the NFL? I haven't seen anything suggesting such.
They are protesting disparity in the races, are they not? How would it not apply?

Of course! The gender gap among some careers is as well, obviously!
Exactly! Does this mean that where those gender gaps exist, they must be attributed to sexism?


I never said a single word about company performance, nor is it in the least bit relevant to the point I was making. I was talking about personal performance.
One is just the aggregate of the others. How are they not relevant to each other?

Marketplace success is attributable to myriad factors and trying to correlate a specific policy with financial success seems...inadvisable.
Why?

"Here and now" meaning in 2017, or "here and now" meaning in this post? You won't see me make ridiculous claims like that.
Generally in 2017, in this thread and a few others by some. Apologies for not being more clear.

I already explained why high-level white collar work can't be objectively measured. Do you do white collar work? Have you been through a performance review before?
This is where we disagree. High-level white collar work is absolutely objectively measured.

What would you call white collar work? I am a project manager for an alarm and alert management medical software firm.

Yes, I go through them for pretty much every project I do and then get one every year on top.


My only point in linking those articles was to demonstrate that women have different experiences than men. I wasn't trying to say how, why, or by what exact percentage, which leads into the next point...
Agreed - my point is what makes that de facto sexism? Different people are different.


I put "encouraging" in scare quotes because you did. I don't believe in 50/50 quotas, or quotas at all. I do believe that women are subject to a lot of negative messages in regards to their skills, abilities, and qualities and their applicability to the workplace.
In what context? Is this just a sweeping generalization "because it follows"? How does this relate to the gender gap/race gap?
I mean...

It doesn't matter if women on average are better suited to be a preschool teacher than a mathematician or CEO. Trying to prove that isn't going to accomplish anything. There exist women that would be good at that job, so let's remove the unhelpful socially-constructed barriers to her getting that job.
What you're not accounting for there is whether or not women [i]want that job[/quote]. If women aren't applying in the same numbers as men (which is absolutely the case for many industries), how do you proceed? What is your objective? To force them to do it?

Some people believe it's important for young women to have female role models in those positions, and I believe that's often used as a reason to support quotas. I don't know if I'm totally on board with that. But I will acknowledge that I can't directly empathize with a lack of role models. I see people "like me" in any profession and position I would want. It's easy to visualize myself there. I imagine it would be very different for women and people that aren't white.
Agreed, but this still doesn't explain the distributions as we see them (or at least in a empirically backed way). This just supposes it must be sexism, and that no other factors such as preference, education, etc etc play a part in the distributions. If we really want to understand the why females are not in these positions in the numbers we expect them, we must figure out why before creating policy to combat the effect (if that's even desirable).


Science, technology, engineering, and math have only existed for less than 20 years?
In their current forms? Yes.

It seems like you're trying to make a big deal about the articles being from some time ago, but you're missing the point. It's an example of a time when people said, "We hire the best people for the job" but didn't actually hire the best people for the job.
Based on distributions that are still unexplained from a causal perspective.

So from that we can surmise that someone saying "We hire the best people for the job" isn't proof that they're hiring the best people for the job.
[/quote]
RIght, so let's find the proof instead of surmising what is causing the distributions we are seeing.


Are 9/10 applicants for the job men because nine female high school students were steered toward nursing instead of getting their MD?
Maybe! How could the company do anything about this? How does sticking to leftist ideology at Google do anything at all about this potential driving factor of the gender gap? (I don't expect you to have the answer - just pointing out the flaws in Google's reasoning.)

Or pointed to elementary education when their Calc II class didn't go well? Or left the workforce to take care of her young children because today's climate gives her husband a better chance at high level promotions, so it'd be more detrimental for him to leave the workforce?
Today's climate or the fact that the reproductive processes for men and women are different, and might have different preferences associated with child birth?
You're asking me for answers, and I have few. I have mostly questions - questions for people that believe they have all of the answers to complex questions that we don't actually have any real answers to. People that express certainty, but certainty that's often rooted in their upbringing or political affiliation more than sound data.
This is where we're on the same page. I'm not asking you for the answers. I am supposing that we should find them before filling in the policy with ideology, conjecture, and supposition. Can we agree on that?
     
Laminar
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Oct 2, 2017, 04:05 PM
 
Originally Posted by Snow-i View Post
They are protesting disparity in the races, are they not? How would it not apply?
You can literally ask them what they're protesting. Why are you trying to put else something on them?

Exactly! Does this mean that where those gender gaps exist, they must be attributed to sexism?
No, am I saying that?

One is just the aggregate of the others.
No. One is the aggregate of many factors, individual personnel performance is just one factor.

Marketplace success is attributable to myriad factors and trying to correlate a specific policy with financial success seems...inadvisable.
Why?
Because it would be extremely dumb to say, "Look, Google's stock price dropped, it must be because of their liberal policies regarding hiring women. On the other hand, Halliburton is doing great! It must be because they're covering up all of those rapes."

This is where we disagree. High-level white collar work is absolutely objectively measured.
No, not to the extent that a sport is measured. How do you objectively measure a person's ability to foster positive relationships with clients and measure that against a colleague's ability? How do you quantify an employee's stress management skills? Ability to handle a certain workload?

Those are all touchy-feely topics with a lot of room for interpretation.

What would you call white collar work? I am a project manager for an alarm and alert management medical software firm.

Yes, I go through them for pretty much every project I do and then get one every year on top.
And your last performance review was a single number? This year you did eight! Of course not. There's words there, too, and that means there's room for interpretation.

My only point in linking those articles was to demonstrate that women have different experiences than men. I wasn't trying to say how, why, or by what exact percentage, which leads into the next point...
Agreed - my point is what makes that de facto sexism? Different people are different.
Because of stuff like this.

When he explained to the client in email that he was actually talking to “Martin” instead of “Nicole” he said there was an “immediate improvement.”

“Positive reception, thanking me for suggestions, responds promptly, saying ‘great questions!’ Became a model client,” Schneider tweeted.

“Note,” he also tweeted. “My technique and advice never changed. The only difference was that I had a man’s name now.”
In what context? Is this just a sweeping generalization "because it follows"? How does this relate to the gender gap/race gap?

I mean...
Because of the above article/quote. The worst part is stuff like this:

Schneider, who supervised Hallberg, also explained that after their experiment he finally understood why it took her longer to get work done — an issue he says irked their mutual boss.

“I showed the boss and he didn’t buy it. I told him that was fine, but I was never critiquing her speed with clients again,” he wrote.
Their mutual boss was annoyed because it took the woman longer to get the same amount of work done. An objective, quantitative assessment of workplace performance would put the female employee below the male employee. But her work took longer because people didn't take her seriously as a woman until she took the time to prove herself, every time. She was treated differently by clients (leading to a performance difference) not because of her work ethic, her attitude, her language, her actions, or her abilities. She was treated differently because of her gender. That's de facto sexism, no?

Or this:

http://www.pnas.org/content/109/41/16474.abstract

In a randomized double-blind study (n = 127), science faculty from research-intensive universities rated the application materials of a student—who was randomly assigned either a male or female name—for a laboratory manager position. Faculty participants rated the male applicant as significantly more competent and hireable than the (identical) female applicant. These participants also selected a higher starting salary and offered more career mentoring to the male applicant. The gender of the faculty participants did not affect responses, such that female and male faculty were equally likely to exhibit bias against the female student. Mediation analyses indicated that the female student was less likely to be hired because she was viewed as less competent.
Given identical credentials and applications, men were judged to be more competent and were offered more money and more mentorship than identical female candidates based on a piece of paper alone. That's de facto sexism, no?

What you're not accounting for there is whether or not women [i]want that job. If women aren't applying in the same numbers as men (which is absolutely the case for many industries), how do you proceed? What is your objective? To force them to do it?
In neither of the above cases does it matter how many women apply for the job or want to do the job, if they even get the job (less likely), their performance is going to be rated as poorer than an equivalent male colleague for no reason other than her being female. That's de facto sexism, no?

Agreed, but this still doesn't explain the distributions as we see them (or at least in a empirically backed way). This just supposes it must be sexism, and that no other factors such as preference, education, etc etc play a part in the distributions.
I literally left room for lots of other factors.

If we really want to understand the why females are not in these positions in the numbers we expect them, we must figure out why before creating policy to combat the effect (if that's even desirable).
Why aren't there more women in programming?

http://gender.stanford.edu/news/2011...girls%E2%80%9D

At the same time, new hiring tools—including tools that were seemingly objective—had the unintended result of making the programming profession harder for women to enter. Eager to identify talented individuals to train as computer programmers, employers relied on aptitude tests to make hiring decisions. With their focus on mathematical puzzle-solving, the tests may have favored men, who were more likely to take math classes in school.

...

According to Ensmenger, a second type of test, the personality profile, was even more slanted to male applicants. Based on a series of preference questions, these tests sought to indentify job applicants who were the ideal programming “type.” According to test developers, successful programmers had most of the same personality traits as other white-collar professionals. The important distinction, however, was that programmers displayed “disinterest in people” and that they disliked “activities involving close personal interaction.” It is these personality profiles, says Ensmenger, that originated our modern stereotype of the anti-social computer geek.

...

Young people self-select into careers where they believe they will fit in—for example, women currently comprise 18% of computer science undergraduate majors, down from 37% in 1985.

By uncovering the history of women programmers, Ensmenger seeks not only to remind us of women’s forgotten contributions to the computing field. More broadly, he is interested in the process of how and why the field became predominantly male. The fact that stereotypes embedded in advertisements and hiring practices had such a profound effect on masculinizing this profession, says Ensmenger, also sheds light on what can be done to reverse the trend, making programming and other computer professions more open to women.
Because nothing happens in a vacuum.

RIght, so let's find the proof instead of surmising what is causing the distributions we are seeing.
What proof are you waiting on?

How does sticking to leftist ideology at Google do anything at all about this potential driving factor of the gender gap? (I don't expect you to have the answer - just pointing out the flaws in Google's reasoning.)
I believe it goes something like this:
- Women experience an unfair bias against them in the hiring and promotion process, due partly to de facto sexism (as demonstrated objectively in the above)
- This bias means that traditional methods of employee evaluation and the hiring process do not accurately measure the true value of female candidates and employees
- It then follows that a female candidate that appears to be #2 behind a male candidate as measured by traditional means may actually be the #1 candidate, but because of the way the system has operated since...forever...the female candidate's skills and qualities are not being accurately represented or interpreted

Today's climate or the fact that the reproductive processes for men and women are different, and might have different preferences associated with child birth?
I think you picked an interpretation of my statement that was easy to make an argument against. I never mentioned maternity leave, nor did I mention care of a newborn.
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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Oct 3, 2017, 07:13 PM
 
You're killing it with these links, Lam.

I have something small to contribute. You know the fallacy "How can Americans be racist if Asians are successful?" (or some variant thereof)
https://www.theguardian.com/technolo...P=share_btn_tw
The study, using statistics from the US Equal Employment Opportunity Commission, found that Asians were the least likely among all races to become managers and executives, and that Asian women in particular were the least likely to earn executive roles. That’s despite the fact that Asians have become the largest racial cohort in the industry and outnumber white people at the entry level.
The study found that white women, however, are substantially more successful in reaching the executive level than both men and women of color.

“White women have been able to break through, but minority women haven’t,” said Peck.

While there has been an increase in black executives, there has been an 18% drop in the number of black managers. The number of black women in the industry declined by 13%, the study found.

There was also an increase in Latino executives, but the overall representation of Latinos declined from 5.2% to 4.8% and they still represent a very small fraction of corporate leaders.
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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Oct 16, 2017, 09:00 PM
 
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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Oct 17, 2017, 07:01 PM
 
Kneeling during the national anthem is about respecting the flag and by extension the soldiers, but Trump only called the parents of the slain green berets after being shamed the media.
     
 
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