[Scandalous Ion Cannon]

First those darn Homosexuals cause a Tsunami, now this!

""Southern Decadence" has a history of filling the French Quarters section of the city with drunken homosexuals engaging in sex acts in the public streets and bars. Last year, a local pastor sent video footage of sex acts being performed in front of police to the mayor, city council, and the media. City officials simply ignored the footage and continued to welcome and praise the weeklong celebration as being an "exciting event". However, Hurricane Katrina has put an end to the annual celebration of sin. "

http://www.repentamerica.com/pr_hurricanekatrina.html

[Atomic Rooster]

hehe...I wonder what Pat Robertson is thinking?

Has he said anything...does anybody know?

[smacintush]

Originally Posted by Atomic Rooster

hehe...I wonder what Pat Robertson is thinking?

Has he said anything...does anybody know?

Why the f*ck would you wonder this?

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by smacintush

Why the f*ck would you wonder this?

Because that guy is a religious nut, maybe?

[Doofy]

Let's assume that God does, in fact, exist.

Any reason to think He wouldn't do a Sodom and Gomorrah these days?

[maxelson]

Hm. Why pick LA instead of, say NYC? Of course, we know what I know what Robertson would say.

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by Doofy

Let's assume that God, in fact, does exist.

Any reason to think He wouldn't do a Sodom and Gomorrah these days?

… because it wasn't much worse in the past?

[Taliesin]

Originally Posted by Doofy

Let's assume that God, in fact, does exist.

Any reason to think He wouldn't do a Sodom and Gomorrah these days?

Actually I believe that everything happening on this planet is happening with God's will. According to the Quran, everything comes from God, good and bad, but that the bad things are coming upon us because of what we did in the past, karma-like.

So, any truly religious people probably believe that the Hurrican was sent and directed by God, no doubt about that. The only question that remains is, if the hurricane was sent as a punishment for the people in New Orleans and espescially Biloxi and the other small towns in that direction, or was it sent as a "test" for our faith in Him, our patience and our mercy and will to commit good deeds and help.

Maybe it was both in one, so to speak. For the truly religious people the loss of life in that catastrophy is not that tragic, because everyone has to die at a certain point of time, and everyone dies at an exactly predestined time, and more important everyone will be recreated at judgment day anyhow. The mercy and sorrow that religious people feel is not for the dead, but for the surviving ones that are suffering hardships (loss of property, injuries, discomfortness...) and that have to carry on their life without their loved-ones.

So, since I'm a religious person, I believe all that, and in my prayers I ask God to help the survivors, to comfort them, to have mercy on them and to guide and protect them.

Peace be upon you.

Taliesin

[von Wrangell]

What I find interesting is that of all the people saying this was punishment for something I've yet to see one person suggest it's punishment for the war in Iraq. Why is that?

[spauldingg]

I have it on High Authority that this happened not because so many are sodomites, but because so many of them speak French.


(Not making light of the tragedy, just ragging on the "blame god" crowd.)

[Taliesin]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

What I find interesting is that of all the people saying this was punishment for something I've yet to see one person suggest it's punishment for the war in Iraq. Why is that?

I don't think that, though only God really knows, because I think the war against Iraq was actually willed by God, and because New Orleans and Biloxi and the other towns don't have to do that much with the wars the US are leading in their name. No, if it was a punishment and not just a test, then I think it's probably something related locally to New Orleans and Biloxi and co, but only God really knows.

Peace be upon you.

Taliesin

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by Taliesin

I don't think that, though only God really knows, because I think the war against Iraq was actually willed by God, and because New Orleans and Biloxi and the other towns don't have to do that much with the wars the US are leading in their name. No, if it was a punishment and not just a test, then I think it's probably something related locally to New Orleans and Biloxi and co, but only God really knows.

Peace be upon you.

Taliesin

salaam

True, just wanted to throw it out there as a possibility and also because I'm curious about why no one has suggested that.

[spauldingg]

Well, it's because the "Blame God" crowd are more obsessed with the way people love each other than the way people kill each other.

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by spauldingg

Well, it's because the "Blame God" crowd are more obsessed with the way people love each other than the way people kill each other.

A very good point.

[AKcrab]

Originally Posted by Taliesin

I think the war against Iraq was actually willed by God

What?

[ThinkInsane]

Originally Posted by AKcrab

What?

What's not to understand? He just explained above that his faith tells him all things are part of God's plan, God's will. Why would the war in Iraq be any different to Taliesin than a natural disaster or anything else that happens in the world? That's his faith; he believes that things are predetermined by a higher power. You may not agree, but I don't see what's hard to comprehend about it.

[Millennium]

I've heard about twenty different versions of this, and I don't doubt that they've all been said by some fundamentalist group or another. There are certainly enough of them to do that, and it seems they get loonier every year. They give my faith a bad name, and it really pisses me off sometimes.

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by ThinkInsane

What's not to understand? He just explained above that his faith tells him all things are part of God's plan, God's will. Why would the war in Iraq be any different to Taliesin than a natural disaster or anything else that happens in the world? That's his faith; he believes that things are predetermined by a higher power. You may not agree, but I don't see what's hard to comprehend about it.

Exactly, it's what faith is/was supposed to do: explain things beyond understanding.

Doesn't mean you have to agree with their interpretation, though

[spauldingg]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie

Exactly, it's what faith is/was supposed to do: explain things beyond understanding.

Doesn't mean you have to agree with their interpretation, though

Hurricanes are not beyond understanding

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by spauldingg

Hurricanes are not beyond understanding

In case you haven't notice, I don't believe in God and I'm a physicist. No need to lecture me on this

I don't buy this whole `God's will' business, because for one it doesn't help you diddly squat with your life, if you can always argue both ways. Did God punish `you' or just test your faith? Did he only kill people `who deserved it'? I don't think so. I don't believe so.

[spauldingg]

Even though I quoted you it wasn't directed at you. Should have specified. Sorry.

[vmarks]

Originally Posted by Taliesin

So, any truly religious people probably believe that the Hurrican was sent and directed by God, no doubt about that.

False.

There are plenty of truly religious Jews who accept that bad things can happen to good people and that this is not sent and directed by G-d. Please look into tikun olam.

Furthermore, directed at the rest of the thread, I say this:

This thread was started as a means of attacking the vocal minority of religionists who claim this was somehow divine payback.

As opposed to the vocal atheists and liberal nutcases who claim it is the fault of George Bush / environmental policy / or the fault of another state's Governor, as RFK Jr. has claimed.

Don't you realize that this casting of blame is opposite sides of the same distasteful and fraudulent coin?

Thank you.

[Taliesin]

Originally Posted by vmarks

There are plenty of truly religious Jews who accept that bad things can happen to good people and that this is not sent and directed by G-d. Please look into tikun olam.

Oh, yes, bad things can happen to good people, to even perfectly righteous, devout and believing people. Yes, eventhough only a very small minority of humanity can be counted into that nearly sinless category, those can be visited by bad fate, but even then it is willed by God, in that case as a test of the perseverance, patience and faith of that group:

002.155
YUSUFALI: Be sure we shall test you with something of fear and hunger, some loss in goods or lives or the fruits (of your toil), but give glad tidings to those who patiently persevere,
PICKTHAL: And surely We shall try you with something of fear and hunger, and loss of wealth and lives and crops; but give glad tidings to the steadfast,
SHAKIR: And We will most certainly try you with somewhat of fear and hunger and loss of property and lives and fruits; and give good news to the patient,

002.156
YUSUFALI: Who say, when afflicted with calamity: "To God We belong, and to Him is our return":-
PICKTHAL: Who say, when a misfortune striketh them: Lo! we are God's and lo! unto Him we are returning.
SHAKIR: Who, when a misfortune befalls them, say: Surely we are God's and to Him we shall surely return.

002.157
YUSUFALI: They are those on whom (Descend) blessings from God, and Mercy, and they are the ones that receive guidance.
PICKTHAL: Such are they on whom are blessings from their Lord, and mercy. Such are the rightly guided.
SHAKIR: Those are they on whom are blessings and mercy from their Lord, and those are the followers of the right course.

Source: Quran, sura 2.

But don't take just the word of the Quran for it, Job 12 says similar things:

7 "But ask the animals, and they will teach you,
or the birds of the air, and they will tell you;

8 or speak to the earth, and it will teach you,
or let the fish of the sea inform you.

9 Which of all these does not know
that the hand of the LORD has done this?

10 In his hand is the life of every creature
and the breath of all mankind.

11 Does not the ear test words
as the tongue tastes food?

12 Is not wisdom found among the aged?
Does not long life bring understanding?

13 "To God belong wisdom and power;
counsel and understanding are his.

14 What he tears down cannot be rebuilt;
the man he imprisons cannot be released.

15 If he holds back the waters, there is drought;
if he lets them loose, they devastate the land.

16 To him belong strength and victory;
both deceived and deceiver are his.

17 He leads counselors away stripped
and makes fools of judges.

18 He takes off the shackles put on by kings
and ties a loincloth [b] around their waist.

19 He leads priests away stripped
and overthrows men long established.

20 He silences the lips of trusted advisers
and takes away the discernment of elders.

21 He pours contempt on nobles
and disarms the mighty.

22 He reveals the deep things of darkness
and brings deep shadows into the light.

23 He makes nations great, and destroys them;
he enlarges nations, and disperses them.

24 He deprives the leaders of the earth of their reason;
he sends them wandering through a trackless waste.

25 They grope in darkness with no light;
he makes them stagger like drunkards.

Peace be upon you.

Taliesin

[OSX Abuser]

I heard it was Karl Rove. He used the Super extra secret weather control device developed by the NSA
to keep Iraq out of the Newspapers.

[Scandalous Ion Cannon]

Originally Posted by Taliesin

I don't think that, though only God really knows, because I think the war against Iraq was actually willed by God
Taliesin

So God created all man, makes some "bad" ones, then has the good ones go fight them for him and get killed in the process.

If that is so then God is a pussy.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by OSX Abuser

I heard it was Karl Rove. He used the Super extra secret weather control device developed by the NSA to keep Iraq out of the Newspapers.

-t

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by Scandalous Ion Cannon

If that is so then God is a pussy.

You'll get some good from him soon !

-t

[vmarks]

Originally Posted by Taliesin

Oh, yes, bad things can happen to good people, to even perfectly righteous, devout and believing people. Yes, eventhough only a very small minority of humanity can be counted into that nearly sinless category, those can be visited by bad fate, but even then it is willed by God, in that case as a test of the perseverance, patience and faith of that group:

Source: Quran, sura 2.

But don't take just the word of the Quran for it,

Thank you, I won't.

Job 12 says similar things:

You didn't look up Tikun Olam, did you. I recommended it to you.

http://torah.org/learning/rabbis-not...3/pinchas.html

"G-d doesn't get mad and He doesn't get even. G-d isn't petty or arbitrary. G-d is just and He is righteous. G-d is intelligent, thoughtful, and purposeful. G-d rewards and He punishes, but not in the manner of humans. G-d's rewards and punishments take into account all conceivable variables and factors. G-d is loving and forgiving at all times, even when He is being punitive. G-d is invested in success and every perceived consequence is intended to encourage or rehabilitate. G-d is a correcting G-d as noted in the Aleinu, "To correct the world through the kingdom of Shakai."

He discusses Job, among other characters. It would be worth your while to read.

You really should read it all, but with reference to Job, "Faced with an ever-growing "Jewish problem" Pharaoh decided to seek advice. He turned to the three most renown wise men of the day, Yisro (Jethro), Iyuv (Job), and Bilam. Yisro challenged the spoken and unspoken evil of a possible "Jewish solution", and was forced to flee to Midian to save himself. His reward was to become the father-in-law of Moshe. Iyuv stood silent in the face of evil and eventually suffered the tribulations of horrific family devastation. "

Peace be upon you.

I like that. Thank you. Would you always address me in this manner? When you mention my name while not speaking to me, would you add it following my name with the pronoun corrected for context, 'him' instead of 'you' ?

No? I understand.

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by maxelson

Hm. Why pick LA instead of, say NYC? Of course, we know what I know what Robertson would say.

LA, it'lll happen, and by many estimates within the next 20 years. May not have to do with any divinity though, since damned place was built on a fault line.

See my sig.

[spacefreak]

So this guy thinks that God destroyed a wicked, sin-filled city. I wonder - what is his explanation for Nevada's survival of Katrina?

Someone needs to tell him that if God wanted to destroy New Orleans, he would have done is much sooner. Of course, God also could have selectively just destroyed the areas of New Orleans that house the "sinful" activities, right?

[davesimondotcom]

Seriously, even if you believe in a vengeful God, why would he take the lives and homes and property of innocent people just to punish a few?

All of these people, whether RFK Jr. blaming the lack of Kyoto treaty for the Hurricane or religious zealots blaming some behavior (homosexuality, abortion, whatever) - all of them need to STFU.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by spacefreak

I wonder - what is his explanation for Nevada's survival of Katrina?

Not being build below sea-level in a hurricane prone area ?

Uhm, wait, that's a rational explanation

-t

[vmarks]

Originally Posted by MacNStein

Learn to swim.

"How long can you tread water?"

-- Bill Cosby, recounting a conversation between G-d and Noah.

[Atomic Rooster]

Originally Posted by smacintush

Why the f*ck would you wonder this?

Hi Pat.

[Dakar]

Originally Posted by turtle777

You'll get some good from him soon !

-t

Sounds like another hurricane has been forcast.

[Sven G]

"Sin"? Pleeeeaaaase: I'm not gay, but, in year 2005, people still believing in "homo sin"... Retrogrades! (Can you say so, in English?)

[maxelson]

Originally Posted by MacNStein

LA, it'lll happen, and by many estimates within the next 20 years. May not have to do with any divinity though, since damned place was built on a fault line.

See my sig.

Sorry. I was using the state code for Louisiana.
ONe of my favorite songs, though!

[maxelson]

And hey, as log as we are on the vengeful God topic: My understanding of the New Covenant is that the vengeful God of the Old Testament is set aside to make room for the forgiving God of Christ's teachings. We had this discussion a few years back and that is how it was explained to me. Since then, I have brought the question to more than one Theologian. Answers varied slightly based upon denomination, but the gyst was the same (except for the Southern Baptist. He was, pardon the expression, seething with fire and brimstone).
My own fairly extensive research bears this out.

[dcolton]

God isn't punishing the gays, he is punishing his faithful for allowing the gays to infiltrate good and common communities.

[maxelson]

Was that sarcasm?

[dcolton]

Originally Posted by maxelson

Was that sarcasm?

was what sarcasm?

[maxelson]

your post.

[davesimondotcom]

Originally Posted by maxelson

Sorry. I was using the state code for Louisiana.
ONe of my favorite songs, though!

Hey, maxelson!

I'd agree on that song (Ænima by Tool, for those sad saps who don't know what the hell we're talking about)...


Some say the end is near.
Some say we'll see armageddon soon.
I certainly hope we will.
I sure could use a vacation from this

******** three ring circus sideshow of
Freaks

Here in this hopeless ****ing hole we call LA
The only way to fix it is to flush it all away.
Any ****ing time. Any ****ing day.
Learn to swim, I'll see you down in Arizona bay.

Fret for your figure and
Fret for your latte and
Fret for your hairpiece and
Fret for your lawsuit and
Fret for your prozac and
Fret for your pilot and
Fret for your contract and
Fret for your car.

It's a
******** three ring circus sideshow of
Freaks

Here in this hopeless ****ing hole we call LA
The only way to fix it is to flush it all away.
Any ****ing time. Any ****ing day.
Learn to swim, I'll see you down in Arizona bay.

Some say a comet will fall from the sky.
Followed by meteor showers and tidal waves.
Followed by faultlines that cannot sit still.
Followed by millions of dumbfounded dipshits.

Some say the end is near.
Some say we'll see armageddon soon.
I certainly hope we will cuz
I sure could use a vacation from this

Silly ****, stupid ****...

One great big festering neon distraction,
I've a suggestion to keep you all occupied.

Learn to swim.

Mom's gonna fix it all soon.
Mom's comin' round to put it back the way it ought to be.

Learn to swim.

**** L Ron Hubbard and
**** all his clones.
**** all those gun-toting
Hip gangster wannabes.

Learn to swim.

**** retro anything.
**** your tattoos.
**** all you junkies and
**** your short memory.

Learn to swim.

**** smiley glad-hands
With hidden agendas.
**** these dysfunctional,
Insecure actresses.

Learn to swim.

Cuz I'm praying for rain
And I'm praying for tidal waves
I wanna see the ground give way.
I wanna watch it all go down.
Mom please flush it all away.
I wanna watch it go right in and down.
I wanna watch it go right in.
Watch you flush it all away.

Time to bring it down again.
Don't just call me pessimist.
Try and read between the lines.

I can't imagine why you wouldn't
Welcome any change, my friend.

I wanna see it all come down.
suck it down.
flush it down.

[maxelson]

DAVE, BUDDY!!! Good to "see " you!

[Moderator]

These storms are thrown off of Africa, sent across the Atlantic, and into the US. Obviously its Africa's way of getting back at us for slavery.

[Moderator]

Originally Posted by MacNStein

LA, it'lll happen, and by many estimates within the next 20 years. May not have to do with any divinity though, since damned place was built on a fault line.

See my sig.

Its funny, all of these liberal cities..LA, NYC, Boston...drive this country's economy...if it weren't for them you'd be wiping your arse with your bible cause its all you'd have.

[davesimondotcom]

Originally Posted by Moderator

Its funny, all of these liberal cities..LA, NYC, Boston...drive this country's economy...if it weren't for them you'd be wiping your arse with your bible cause its all you'd have.

Remember you said this next time you go to the grocery store. See, groceries don't come from the store, they come from farms and ranches. And I don't see too many of those in the city.

[spacefreak]

Originally Posted by Moderator

Its funny, all of these liberal cities..LA, NYC, Boston...drive this country's economy...

Why don't those liberal cities do something about their slums?

[maxelson]

Too busy using their tax money to support the bible belt.

[maxelson]

As if rural areas didn't have slums. Or crime. Or poverty.