[Hg2491]

My friend and I were just talking about Ubuntu... I think it's great to have an open-source OS, but it's not for either of us due to our school's requirements. So, Linux, who's if for?... Also, which one is the best to be a home file server: Windows or Linux?

[cgc]

I use Ubuntu and like it for odd things (e.g. convert .ogg or .flac files to .aac and other odd jobs). I like that I can find programs in Ubuntu I can't find (for free) on Mac. I think the best file server is the one you know how to maintain and configure.

[Chuckit]

Linux is for people who give the highest priority to cost and realize that Microsoft sucks.

[ghporter]

What is it about your school's requirements that precludes your using Ubuntu or any other Linux distro? I'm very curious.

[Hg2491]

Originally Posted by cgc 

I use Ubuntu and like it for odd things (e.g. convert .ogg or .flac files to .aac and other odd jobs). I like that I can find programs in Ubuntu I can't find (for free) on Mac. I think the best file server is the one you know how to maintain and configure.

It makes sense what you say about the file servers.. Thanks!

What is it about your school's requirements that precludes your using Ubuntu or any other Linux distro? I'm very curious.

We learn how to use different programs that only come for Windows (sometimes not even Mac). For instance, we were "learning" Photoshop from Aug to Dec; now we are going to learn how to use Flash. I know that there's an app called Gimp, but what happens when the teacher wants to see the PSD?

Furthermore, I'm enrolled in the technical program that my school (high school, you guys always assume school = college) offers. They show us how to program on different languages (can't remember which ones right now). Is that possible to do on Linux?

Also, can virtual machines be run on Linux? This year we're using a Windows Server 2003 virutal machine for one of our computer classes.

My friend is sick and tired of Microsoft; he would love to be able to only use Linux on his Dell. BTW, maybe I talked without knowing before... Maybe Linux can be used and I'm just not aware of it.

My school is very Windows-oriented. They weren't expecting so many Macs this school year. This is the first year that we are required to take a laptop to school. In my classroom around 10 or 11 of the 24 computers are Macs: Two MacBook Pros, a green (mine), a hot pink, an orange, and an aqua MacBook (thanks to Speck SeeThru's); the rest are plain white MacBooks.

[ghporter]

A school being "Windows oriented" is almost always due to economics. Dell likes to support public schools (especially when they can displace Apple), and that often means really attractive savings for outfitting a school or a school system. This is not a "bad thing" as such, just a fact of life. And school boards go for this because it is a fact that more businesses use Windows PCs than any other kind of hardware or OS.

For your school requirements, no, Linux is NOT appropriate. My son's "Basic Computer Skills" class in high school was somewhat similar to what you're talking about, but on a lower level-they had to become somewhat proficient in using Office applications. He spent a weekend getting up to speed on Access and used his existing skills with Word and PowerPoint to test out of the class after the first week. (Hey, I'm a computer scientist, and was getting that degree while he was in kindergarten and first grade...he really should be able to use a computer, don't you think? )

But...Linux distro installers tend to support dual booting quite well. You could install Fedora Core on your PC and boot it when you don't need Windows to work on school projects. Since Linux has at its heart a common base with OS X (which is based on Free BSD, another Unix-like OS), Linux can be a very interesting way to explore software and what you can do with it.

[Hg2491]

All the computers lab in my school are filled with Dell PCs =.=;. If I would get a dollar for every time someone has a problem with one of those computers I probably wouldn't need to pay for school.

DAMN IT! My friend was so excited when I told him yesterday that there might of been a chance to switch to Linux. He is somewhat excited about Ubuntu Ultimate (Don't ask me why). Yes, that always happens on the computer world... Today's MBAs + PHDs are tomorrow's fifth grade assignment.

So there aren't any virtualization software for Linux? The thing is that we hardly are not working on school projects and related. Yesterday morning I started downloading Fedora and it finished late at night. I have installed a version with the KDE desktop manager and right now I'm installing another virtual machine with GNOME; I don't know the difference between the two.

One last thing, the thing with my school is that I enrolled in the Technical Program; I learn how to become an administrator, rather than a simple user. Its not as if everyone in my high school has the same needs as I do. The General Junior class are learning how to use Windows XP and getting some knowledge about Mac OS X and Linux, while Technical is learning everything there is to know about Windows 2003 Server.

[ghporter]

One thing schools tend to skimp on is buying support. Another is technology training. Most teachers don't know enough to be useful to the student when there's a problem, even if that problem is (gasp!) the plug isn't in all the way in the back of the computer. This really happened to my son in that basic computer class. Don't blame the computers as much as the abuse your classmates give them.

I'm not saying that there is no virtualization software for Linux-I don't know anything about that area at all. Google is your friend here. And getting up to speed on administering a network based on 2k3 Server is a Very Good Thing® for your future. But it is "administering," not "administrating," so you have my permission to mentally beat about the head and shoulders anyone using the latter word.

[Hg2491]

Pretty funny story: My Pre-calculus teacher was having a problem getting her computer on to put some exercises on the projector and she calls me. When I go and see what is wrong with the computer it was the power cord.. Disconnected.

I don't think I'm going to use the knowledge in the future - I'm going to study architecture xD. I'm just in for the challenge. All add administrating to the list of words I've invented from another language. I speak Spanish and English so sometimes I mess up some words that are similar in both languages.

Thanks for all your help!

[ghporter]

Cool. Enjoy. But having administrator skills is useful just about anywhere. You don't think architects use pencils anymore, do you? Nope-all CAD. And networked in probably 99.999% of architecture offices too. Multilingual architect with network skills = good résumé.

[Sven G]

There are many virtualisation solutions available for Linux, both free and commercial; for example (in no particular order):

* QEMU (with many very good graphical frontends available);

* VirtualBox (excellent, and probably the most Virtual PC-like);

* Xen;

* KVM;

* VMware Workstation (available also for free in the Player and Server editions);

* Parallels Workstation;

etc. etc. (see also here).

Plenty of choice, indeed!

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

Linux is for people who give the highest priority to cost and realize that Microsoft sucks.

The highest priority to cost, security, and performance....

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Hg2491 

It makes sense what you say about the file servers.. Thanks!


We learn how to use different programs that only come for Windows (sometimes not even Mac). For instance, we were "learning" Photoshop from Aug to Dec; now we are going to learn how to use Flash. I know that there's an app called Gimp, but what happens when the teacher wants to see the PSD?

Furthermore, I'm enrolled in the technical program that my school (high school, you guys always assume school = college) offers. They show us how to program on different languages (can't remember which ones right now). Is that possible to do on Linux?

Also, can virtual machines be run on Linux? This year we're using a Windows Server 2003 virutal machine for one of our computer classes.

My friend is sick and tired of Microsoft; he would love to be able to only use Linux on his Dell. BTW, maybe I talked without knowing before... Maybe Linux can be used and I'm just not aware of it.

My school is very Windows-oriented. They weren't expecting so many Macs this school year. This is the first year that we are required to take a laptop to school. In my classroom around 10 or 11 of the 24 computers are Macs: Two MacBook Pros, a green (mine), a hot pink, an orange, and an aqua MacBook (thanks to Speck SeeThru's); the rest are plain white MacBooks.

There are great Virtualization options under Linux, better than OS X even...

There is VMWare Workstation, VMWare Player, and VMWare Server, the latter two which are free. There is also VirtualBox which actually runs faster than VMWare for me and is free (this is also available under OS X, but it is quite unstable under OS X). There are probably some other Linux based options based on QEmu, and some of the other VMWare products might be available under Linux as well... There is also Xen, and probably some others that I"m forgetting right now.

There is also WINE, which allows you to run Windows programs under Linux/OS X, as well as Crossover Office.

[besson3c]

Linux is for developers, engineers, systems administrators, security experts, and other people that benefit from getting to know their computer on a very technical level. It is an engineer's OS, and provides the most flexibility and customizibility of any OS.

It also performs and scales very well (unlike OS X), so it is a great OS choice for running on lesser hardware.

[peeb]

Schools should not be training kids to use a particular vendor's stuff.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by peeb 

Schools should not be training kids to use a particular vendor's stuff.

I agree. Our state has started a program that has put Linux in the classrooms (Edubuntu, specifically). It has been a mixed success.

[besson3c]

The argument towards learning a particular vendor's application has always been "we need to teach children what they will be using in the real world". This argument is the biggest piece of **** argument I've ever heard, it is lousy.

[peeb]

Anyone who has learned to use Open Office can use Office.

[ghporter]

Schools should be teaching generic skills-I am in total agreement. However, the compliment of peeb's statement is true: anyone who can use Office can also use OpenOffice. To be frank, the classes my son took were more "this is what a word processor/spreadsheet/presentation/database program does-using Microsoft products because they are ubiquitous," than "here's how you use the Microsoft Office suite." He called it "computers for the brain damaged" because it was all so rudimentary. "Today, we'll look at editing text to include inserting and deleting words and letters." Seriously, it was that basic. If they'd been talking about things like "today we'll get into doing a mail merge of the entries in your Outlook address book based on the data on each address book entry in the Access customer database and their simulated latest purchases," that would be out of line.

[Hg2491]

Wow... a couple of hours out of the forums and so many messages. Thanks for all the feedback! I think there'll be a couple of Linux laptops at school now.

I have asked my computer teacher multiple times why we are learning Windows and all he says is "Porque ahi esta el dinero" (Spanish for Because the money is there). I think that the people who have Macs sometimes get to learn more stuff because they have to find by themselves the solution to certain problem that people on Windows take for granted. For example: in the Windows 2003 Server class we were all given a Virtual PC hard drive with the OS on it. We Mac users had to manually install a virtualization program and install 2W3K -- Windows users still don't know how to do it!

[Hg2491]

Originally Posted by ghporter 

Schools should be teaching generic skills-I am in total agreement. However, the compliment of peeb's statement is true: anyone who can use Office can also use OpenOffice. To be frank, the classes my son took were more "this is what a word processor/spreadsheet/presentation/database program does-using Microsoft products because they are ubiquitous," than "here's how you use the Microsoft Office suite." He called it "computers for the brain damaged" because it was all so rudimentary. "Today, we'll look at editing text to include inserting and deleting words and letters." Seriously, it was that basic. If they'd been talking about things like "today we'll get into doing a mail merge of the entries in your Outlook address book based on the data on each address book entry in the Access customer database and their simulated latest purchases," that would be out of line.

Apparently my school is not that bad after all. We learned the insights of the Office suite; we started in 8th grade with Word, 9th Power Point, 10th Excel, and only the Technical Program got the change to experience what Access feels like now in 11th grade.

[Andrew_Campbell]

Perhaps I missed something, but why is running Ubuntu a problem? Simply dual boot your system and keep Windows on there for your school assignments. This way; you can have the best of both worlds. Linux for it's security, speed and reliability, and Windows for proprietary software when required. No need to sacrifice one for the other.

[dsteinman]

Open Office sucks, no comparison to Office for Mac or PC. Linux, I have found useful for specialized tasks, but no so for a gp desktop. Imo, Linux is and will remain a solution where price is the first consideration. On my iMac I have Leopard, XP, Fedora and Ubunto installed. As far as teaching in school, my belief is that the OS does not matter, as from my experience with my kids, they quickly figure the differences out.. Having Linux forced on them in school only to appease some self righteous MSFT haters ? No thanks..

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by dsteinman 

Open Office sucks, no comparison to Office for Mac or PC. Linux, I have found useful for specialized tasks, but no so for a gp desktop. Imo, Linux is and will remain a solution where price is the first consideration. On my iMac I have Leopard, XP, Fedora and Ubunto installed. As far as teaching in school, my belief is that the OS does not matter, as from my experience with my kids, they quickly figure the differences out.. Having Linux forced on them in school only to appease some self righteous MSFT haters ? No thanks..

In my opinion, the vast majority of people that use Office use Office for very basic stuff which is covered by OOo just fine. Have you looked at the prices for MS Office licenses lately? For these people, I say no thanks to MS.

If OS differences are irrelevant to kids, why should our tax dollars go to pay for software licenses to help fund already very wealthy software companies when free alternatives exist?

[ghporter]

I agree with besson3c-Open Office has been just fine for everything I've used it for. I have access to MS Office for cheap, so I could actually compare it and OO side by side. Except for a few minor interface differences, creating papers in the word processor from OO was at least as easy as with Word. What is it that you don't like about it-specifically-, dsteinman?

[dsteinman]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

If OS differences are irrelevant to kids, why should our tax dollars go to pay for software licenses to help fund already very wealthy software companies when free alternatives exist?

I humbly submit that after you factor in the support for the "free" software, either 3rd party or in house staff, that the bulk licensing for a commercial product does not look all that bad. Reality is that for an enterprise, "free" software may in fact be one of the more expensive solutions.

I have tried to use Open Office, but I found it to be slow-unusable/unstable. If a license for Office is $240, the price is not all that bad, basically the price of 3-4 dinners out.. given that the last Office license purchase for me was 4 years ago, pretty much a bargain given all of the work I have done with the product. iWork is only $79, and I am finding I am as of late using it more than Office.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by dsteinman 

I humbly submit that after you factor in the support for the "free" software, either 3rd party or in house staff, that the bulk licensing for a commercial product does not look all that bad. Reality is that for an enterprise, "free" software may in fact be one of the more expensive solutions.

I disagree.

This may have been the case back in the day, but we have since developed tools which make managing large clusters of computers much easier. All it would take is a build to push out to the computer labs which basically allow the computers to function as dumb kiosks controlled centrally.

Where the issues come into play is with staffing. There are obviously far more knowledgeable Windows admins available that are willing to work for generally low educational salaries than there are Linux admins who make big bucks working in more mission critical environments. I do agree that this is a cost consideration, but not an inherent one. That is, if component Linux admins were on hand, there would be no considerable difference in cost to manage labs of Linux machines. In fact, it would probably be cheaper all round: no anti-virus licenses, no OS licenses, no software licenses, the prospect of running a supported OS on lesser hardware, etc.

The difficulties of a heterogeneous computing environment are similar whether you are dealing with Mac/Windows, Mac/Linux, or Windows/Linux, and that is in staffing. However, I also think that these problems can be solved, and perhaps will some day when somebody smart enough figures things out. Personally, I'd advocate centrally hosted servers run by the school board that serve all schools in the district, and very cheap clusters of managed computers in the classroom. The beauty of this sort of approach is that classroom PCs could be provided by charity even - it wouldn't matter how puny the machine was as long as it had a fast network connection.

One of the issues with a centrally hosted server environment like this is that there is more bureaucracy and less teacher control to have to send requests elsewhere rather than just walk down the hall and talk to a server admin. However, my wife's Mom works in an Indiana school where they are piloting Linux classrooms, and as it stands already their Windows servers are hosted downtown off of the school property. So, this wouldn't be a major shift.

One of the other major problems with technology in the schools is that schools often can't afford to pay competitive salaries to IT staff. This is another reason why I think having centrally hosted servers would be the way to go - it would be easier to hire staff to manage a whole group of schools than it would be to hire server admins for each school. Of course, each school would still need to have IT staff on hand, but this would be simply for supporting applications (e.g. "how do I setup this margin in this document?"). You could even get students to provide this service on a part-time basis and pay them next to nothing.

I have tried to use Open Office, but I found it to be slow-unusable/unstable. If a license for Office is $240, the price is not all that bad, basically the price of 3-4 dinners out.. given that the last Office license purchase for me was 4 years ago, pretty much a bargain given all of the work I have done with the product. iWork is only $79, and I am finding I am as of late using it more than Office.

Did you try it on the Mac, on Windows, or on Linux? It runs much better on Windows and Linux since OO runs natively there.

[Cold Warrior]

NeoOffice runs well for me on a Mac.

[besson3c]

I was sort of writing in shorthand when I was babbling on about clusters. What I meant specifically was Distributed Computing:

Distributed computing - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia